Deseret News | Start up school woes: Charter schools working out kinks

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Start up school woes: Charter schools working out kinks

Karen | 9:07 p.m. Sept. 28, 2009

That's a thought-provoking comment on the differences between how business and government work. Could there be follow-up on it to find exactly what Mr. Allen was talking about as it pertains to schools?

I've been waiting a long time for the business world to offer useful suggestions to education.

I've also waited a long time now for charter schools to reveal anything they are really doing to make education different and better.

"Inquiring minds want to know"

Good luck schools! | 9:13 p.m. Sept. 28, 2009

It is so exciting to see all of this parent involvement in childrens' education in Utah! Year after year, dozens and dozens of parent groups put in hundreds of volunteer hours to create a school for their children. It is the most AMAZING display of parent involvement! Things are going right!

I love this aspect of a free nation - people, motivated by their desire to serve their children, can create the school where they want them to be taught. Pretty wonderful aspect of our republic!

Thanks to all who keep trying - learning from the mistakes of others, improving the process year by year and paving the way for still others. Congratulations Schools!

Karen, | 10:30 p.m. Sept. 28, 2009

I'm not sure how a school would reveal to you what it is doing unless you took some initiative and went to learn by examining the results of the different schools and then visiting them to find out what they are doing to achieve those results.

If you are waiting to have something "revealed" to you, I believe you will be waiting quite some time.

Yet, I'll try. Our charter school achieved over 95% proficiency on state tests, with our 100% of our 5th graders achieving proficiency (they also happen to be the first class of students who entered our school 6 years ago, and who have benefited from our complete program).

Don't you think 100% is pretty impressive? Now that I have revealed to you that amazing accomplishment, aren't you curious as to how we accomplished that, with special ed students and all subgroups? What about if I reveal that 100% of our 9th graders were proficient on the state writing exam? Does that revelation interest you?

I suppose not. We haven't had many inquiries into these outstanding accomplishments. People who are invested in failure continue to close their eyes and ears to success.

Comments continue below

Anonymous | 10:48 p.m. Sept. 28, 2009

UUGGGHHH...

Yet another charter school story.

Enough is enough.

All they are doing is stealing our tax money that should be going to REAL schools not experiments.

Anonymous | 5:52 a.m. Sept. 29, 2009

To Annon

Sounds like a Public school teacher who is about to be put out of work because someone can do a REAL job of teaching for less money. Charters will continue to expand and grow here in Utah, because there is such a high demand for them. A lot of that stems from incompetency from the established educators like yourself who tend to ignore problems in their classrooms like bullying, low achievers and special needs students.

RE: UUGGGHHH | 6:34 a.m. Sept. 29, 2009

We sure can't have these darn Charter Schools stealing tax money from our traditional failing public schools.

To: Annon. 5:52 am | 9:30 a.m. Sept. 29, 2009

Hate to burst your bubble, but even if all the district schools were changed to charter schools, every currently employed teacher would still be employed. Every charter school teacher is also a State-certified Teacher, just like every district teacher.

District school teachers have nothing to fear about charter schools succeeding. The fear is that the charter school will not succeed or that the children will do no better in the charter school then in the district school and their parents will bring their children back to the district school mid school year. Unfortunately, that fear comes true every year and it is not always the fault of any of the teachers at the charter or district school, but they will get the blame.

Anonymous | 9:45 a.m. Sept. 29, 2009

Some of the readers of this article apparently don't understand the monumental task it is to build a school from scratch. While you may find the very existence of a charter school grotesque as it "steals your tax money" so you say. if you really understood what has been achieved you would likely applaud it. By the way, we have to work for every dime of that money you think is stolen. Enjoy your smaller class sizes.

Myth | 11:28 a.m. Sept. 29, 2009

"Enjoy your smaller class sizes"

MYTH!!!

When two Charters opened in the same general area as my traditional public school, we were promised by the pro-Charter movement (and by the pro-Charter legislators who were building the schools) that our class sizes would go down. As a matter of fact, that was one of the big selling points of the Charter movement several years ago.

Over the past 5 years, my average class size has gone from 33 to 38. In visiting with other teachers (at other schools in the state) at conferences and workshops I can tell you that they tell the same story. Charter=increased class size at the nearby traditional public school in many cases.

BTW: I'm not anti-Charter. I know of two Charters that I personally feel are phenomenal. I would not hesitate for a second recommending them to a parent. I just don't want this "smaller class size" myth to propagate and continue.

Anonymous | 11:32 a.m. Sept. 29, 2009

In 20 years we will look back on the charter experiment and wonder, "what were we thinking? This is a huge mess!"

Utah Dem | 12:04 p.m. Sept. 29, 2009

To Good Luck Schools! - do you happen to know if the involved parents were also involved in the traditional public schools before their children went to charters? Exactly what is 'required' as parent involvement?
A good friend of mine has children in a Catholic school and their 'involvement' is helping to organize a fundraising dinner - no volunteering at the school, no field trips, no serving on their Board.....

Joel Wright | 12:22 p.m. Sept. 29, 2009

Utah is actually way behind on the charter school movement that even President Obama is a big fan of these days.

Utah only has 5% of their students in public charter schools, while Colorado had 7% and Arizona has 5%. Since the vast majority of charter schools in Utah have been open for 5 years or less, we are just starting to see the difference that a well run charter school can make in the educational experience. Many students and parents are very happy, others are not. That's OK. Education is NOT, and never should be, a one-size-fits-all system.

Furthermore, public charter schools are not "better" than district schools, only different. It is up to the student and the parent to decide what works best for them.

To Myth | 12:37 p.m. Sept. 29, 2009

Same at our local school. Our problem was when the charter opened, parents flocked to it. They felt it was the panacea they had been waiting for. The local school lost two teachers because of reduced number of students. Then the storm hit. The charter was a mess. They fired the principal and fired accusations back and forth. Parents pulled their kids and sent them back to the local school. Only problem was funding was set based on enrollment in October or something like that. So when the kids came back, there was no class for them to go to. Class sizes went way up.

This is a problem with the current system. If a parent puts their child in a charter school, there needs to be a minimum time frame that they have to stay there.

I'm also not against charters but problems like this aren't fair to anyone.

Charters..... | 4:20 p.m. Sept. 29, 2009

Recent research on charters on the national level has revealed that the overwhelming majority of them do not significantly improve learning. A small percentage have shown improvements and another small percentage have actually shown a decline in student achievement.

Utah has a good reputation for granted charters and funding them but gives for little room on the state or district level to do anything new or innovative. Therefore, Utah charter schools will offer little in terms of answers for improved education beyond increased parent participation (which is mixed and tends to fade at charters over time).

The best innovation and alternative ideas in improving education are happening at charters in other states and in private schools around the nation (yes, even here in Utah).

Anonymous | 7:14 p.m. Sept. 29, 2009

Innovations are sadly limited in Utah, even among Charter schools. The greatest innovation is the swinging back of education to the traditional sense of teaching. Many Charters instruct using the Direct Instruction method (designed for special education, but proving a best practice among all learners) and small ability grouping for subjects like Math and Reading. These were the norm for education back in the fifties yet were somehow forgotten.

Now we have so many innovations like New Math or Investigations that equal to an experiment that the best approach for many children is just a return to good old educational mainstays. Sadly with the way the State runs things innovation will be kept at bay. We simply don't fund well enough to be creative with our solutions.

If Charters are opening and the nearby District school has their enrollment jump, just imagine if that Charter had not been built how much more crowded the school would be. Our charter growth has only staved off over-crowding at our local schools. It didn't cause the numbers to go up. I think that has to do more with the lack of Sex ed in our schools.

Dalesse | 5:50 a.m. Oct. 5, 2009

When we lived in Utah we had a wonderful experience with all three of our kids attending a charter school for three years. While the education they are receiving here in Indiana is adequate, I miss the atmosphere of our charter school in Utah.

Great! | 6:38 a.m. Oct. 5, 2009

It is great ot see that parents can work together to create a Charter School and leave the personal differences behind. If the Public School system had any brains they would be watching the Charter Schools and learning from them. Instead, all they do is complain about the "lost" money. The Charter Schools are the quintessential learning labs with parents being "instant" participants. Education is not a "full bucket" but rather a "raging inferno" that should come from any possible means. Whether it be Home School, Private School, Charter School or Public School, we can have the best through these choices that can fit any needs of those who are willing to learn. Instead, again, all we do is complain about the "stolen" or "lost" moneys. All I can say about that is "hogwash"!

Facts | 6:52 a.m. Oct. 5, 2009

Charters are not cheaper than other public schools!

Charters skim good students from other public schools. Parents who can drive their students and volunteer do not represent the regular student population.

Sadly in many cases, charters are simply modern segregation for parents who do not want their children with those kids. American school are nearly as segregated today as they were prior to Brown vs board of education. Sad, but true.

Charters don't lower class size. | 7:49 a.m. Oct. 5, 2009

Schools are funded with WPU money. WPU= weighted pupil unit. Schools get a certain amount of money per child that is educated in their building by the Oct. 1 count. A smaller number of students will NEVER equate to smaller class sizes under Utah's financing plan. It just means that some teachers will be reassigned to a different school, there won't be any new hires, or some teacher contracts won't be renewed. I'm not ripping charters as I think most do a fine job of educating, but it drives me crazy when people perpetuate lies about how the charters will improve the public school atmosphere.

concerned mom | 8:18 a.m. Oct. 5, 2009

One advantage to Charter Schools is that they can and do fire bad teachers. My child is now in a Charter School precisely because the only options for her grade level at the neighborhood school are a teacher who does not teach. I had an older child in this teachers class, so I know this from experience. The principal knows it too, but says there is nothing he can do because this teacher has tenure. He cannot be fired or even transfered. The ohter option is a split class (two grades in one classroom with one teacher) and the teacher is a forced transfer. She may be a good teacher. I don't know. What I do know is that even for a great teacher this is an extremely difficult situation and the kids loose every time.
We were planning to homeschool for this year until we found out about the new Charter School. My child has a great teacher at the Charter School and I am impressed with the things I am seeing coming home. I am grateful to have an alternative for my children. At least 8 children have left our neighborhood school because of this situation.

Corrections | 8:38 a.m. Oct. 5, 2009

@Facts | 6:52 a.m. Oct. 5, 2009

Charters are a melting pot of races, unlike the neighborhood schools where you get the kids that live nearby only. They still aren't as diverse as I would like, but they are much better at mixing then a school that is limited by where people live.

I liked having millionaire kids sitting next to kids who spoke another language and were on welfare. You also won't see that in a neighborhood school. You also won't see the severely handicapped learner as much in your neighborhood school as they tend to bus the really low ones off to self contained classrooms where they have little interaction with the rest of the school.

Charters may not be perfect, but they are more able to do exactly the opposite of what you claim. They integrate instead of segregate.

Anonymous | 8:46 a.m. Oct. 5, 2009

Charters don't lower class size. | 7:49 a.m. Oct. 5, 2009

Charters lower class size within their own schools. Districts HAVE the same sort of option to allocate more resources to lower class size. They choose to spend the money on other things and frivolities. If they would simply cut a third of their administration and use the money saved to hire more teachers then they would be active in fixing the over crowded classroom issue.

Instead of using a rented portable for the new classes, go on a year round schedule or rotate classes through the library, gym, cafeteria or other rooms. There are easy solutions to the belly aches of over corwding. The problem is NO ONE cares to do any of the solutions.

hurray for charters! | 10:06 a.m. Oct. 5, 2009

I wonder how many of the people who have so many negative things to say about charter schools have actually ever had their children attend one? We have had our children attend traditional public schools, private school, home school and charter schools. Hurray for charter schools! My children have attended American Preparatory Academy. It is a FABULOUS school, and my children have received incredible educational opportunities there in a very positive learning environment! I suppose no school is perfect, but we have found charter schools to be the best choice for our children. A big THANK YOU to those great people who have the courage to build charter schools to make a better place for our children to learn! Kudos to you all!

To corrections | 10:07 a.m. Oct. 5, 2009

In my classroom I have immigrant kids sitting next to multimillionaire kids.

We get the Riverbottoms of Provo down to the government subsidized housing of Provo.

So your statement is false.

To: Corrections | 10:07 a.m. Oct. 5, 2009

You have never been to my children's district school. My children are not only sitting next to millionaires' children, but ESL children, Special needs children, children from outside the city and school boundaries who's parents choose to have them educated at this school and yes, the poor children on welfare.

Our district school has better parent involvement then the charter school in town. We have better scores on our AYP, 10 points better in Language Arts and 4 points better in Math. Math was one of the reasons that this particular charter school was started and the district school is still teaching math better!

Undecided | 10:42 a.m. Oct. 5, 2009

I have supported the charter school concept since the early days.

But in my neighborhood, I see many parents getting googly-eyed about the local charter schools because a) they are not district schools and b) they have uniforms.

These parents can't tell you the difference in educational philosophy or educational practice. They cannot tell you why the charter will improve their child's education.

It's a sales job, pure and simple. Many of the teachers in some of those charters are NOT certified (contrary to an earlier comment). I'm not sure what the rules on that are.

At the end of the day, I think we NEED to try new ideas in education. And charter schools (as an opt-in arena) are a good proving ground for those ideas. But we should also be able to explain WHY this idea or that idea is better for our kids.

Charter school doesn't equal expensive private school.

If parents spent half the effort in our public schools that they are "required" to spend in the charters, public school education would improve, as well.

Good luck | 10:47 a.m. Oct. 5, 2009

Charter chairman Allen states, "The government moves more slowly than the rest of the world. That creates challenges for some of these schools."

He is only now coming to this conclusion. He should have known this 2 years ago! No wonder so many charter schools fail - they don't have any idea what it takes to run a school, bureaucracy and all.

Dave B | 11:23 a.m. Oct. 5, 2009

Just like all schools, when it comes to charter schools there are good ones and bad ones.

Charter schools attract kids at all academic levels, not just the good ones. The one key ingredient is that most of the kids in a charter school WANT to be there, which makes it a much nicer environment for everyone.

Charter schools are not taking money from traditional schools. The bottom line is that our kids are getting an education using tax dollars, and we have more choices about how to accomplish that.

We used to home school, but now we have our kids in a charter high school, and we love it. Our neighbours prefer the public h.s. One friend is paying for a private school. Isn't it great that we all have the opportunity to do what we feel is best for our kids.

There is no "one way" to educate kids. Utah is to be commended for providing an environment for learning that offers so many excellent choices.

A teacher's thought | 11:30 a.m. Oct. 5, 2009

I can't stand the idea of charter schools. I wish they would open more schools and hire more teachers so that we could have the same atmosphere of charter schools. The whole idea seems destructive to me. How can we fix the system is we are just moving kids out? And if people think that competition helps improve schools, then they haven't been in education. It might work for the business world, but not for helping individuals reach their full potential. I don't care about the "lost" money--I am just annoyed that people think charters will fix the system in the long run. The kids I have in class that have attended charter schools in our area are behind the other students and have to be caught up.

I have a friend that teaches Kindergarten in a charter school in Sandy. She doesn't have a teaching degree, she graduated in pyschology. She doesn't have a teaching certificate and she gets paid more than I do.

cdmom | 11:44 a.m. Oct. 5, 2009

Dear Undecided,

By State Law, all Charter School teachers are either currently State-Certified teachers or are working towards certification through the Alternative Routes to Licensing program. If they are working through the ARL, they have up to three years to secure their license or they must lose their teaching job.

former charter parent | 12:25 p.m. Oct. 5, 2009

unless there is some real oversight of charter schools then some of them will take advantage of the system and possibly fail. brian allen has done nothing to help charter schools in utah except try to keep out the bad press the bad ones get. case and point - mountainville academy. he told the parents he would reign in the out of control board but didnt. he just smiled pretty for the cameras and told the press everything was ok. now mva has very low enrollment and a new college graduate working as the director. i would think hiring a director with experience would be better. but i guess it will bump along for a few years before the $90000 a month mortgage finally puts it under so it fails.

spudnut | 12:50 p.m. Oct. 5, 2009

@cdmom 11:44 a.m.

The difference between working towards certification and being currently certified is HUGE--similar to the difference between working toward a four-year college degree and having obtained a four-year college degree.

cdmom | 1:12 p.m. Oct. 5, 2009

@spudnut

The difference is that the Certified Teacher has either already done the ARL or graduated college with a teaching degree. ARL candidates MUST have a bachelor's degree in an approved field for the subject(s) they are seeking certification.

It really doesn't matter if the Charter Schools do not follow the law. Even if only one Charter School does not follow the law, it hurts all Charter Schools. If you don't believe it, then why is Mountainville Academy and Monticello brought up every time there is a Charter School story?

Charter parent | 3:41 p.m. Oct. 5, 2009

I've done home school, regular public school, and currently have my oldest in a charter high school. He loves it, and I'm impressed. His classes are 10-20 kids. At the back to school night, I met with all of his teachers - and they were interesting, kind, well educated people who really cared about the kids. They all knew my son pretty well, after only a few weeks - they all immediately knew who he was and said specific things about him. He's learning, he's happy, and the atmosphere is great, because all the kids there are from families who care about their education.

How exactly would it make a difference to regular public schools, to have one more kid in classrooms that already are 30-38 kids each? What kind of voice can I have in a school with 1100+ kids - instead of 500 max? My son has an IEP - which is much easier for teachers to implement in the smaller classrooms. It took until March last year to get it in place - but this year, it was implemented from day one, even though it's not officially updated yet.

former charter parent | 3:42 p.m. Oct. 5, 2009

Re: cdmom
mountainville academy is a huge failure. it is the poster child of what is wrong with charter schools. mva has lied repeatedly. a lot of this was brought out last year when they fired their sixth grade staff. turns out a lot of their teachers had minimal teaching experience as well as no teaching experience or training at all. they had board members filling in as substitutes and getting paid for it. none of who has any kind of teaching degree. they lied to brian allen about that and he bought what they were selling. this was amazing even after several children "outed" who was teaching their classes somedays. they lied to the state about their their intentions of keeping the sixth grade in tact last october. fired the teachers two weeks before christmas and then kept the money to make up for other shortfalls. they have hung out to dry two directors blaming them for their financial woes. not to mention alienating those with experience trying to help. MVA has hired more consultants than they know what to do with. unfortunately they only listen to themselves. that is the reason they will fail. its the board!!

Myth2 | 3:48 p.m. Oct. 5, 2009

To Corrections:

You obviously didn't read the latest audit of Charters. It showed that (overall) they are NOT as diverse as traditional public schools. Your melting pot idea is MYTH and not fact.

Traditional public schools have led the way in the integration of all students. They have been the true INNOVATORS when it comes to integration. They do NOT hide students away in self-contained classrooms or schools (unless the parent chooses such a school or program for their child according to the goals of an IEP).

Once again--I'm not anti-Charter. Some are amazing as are some traditional public schools. I just can't stand by and let this "segregate not integrate" myth propagate and continue.

RE: Myth2 | 4:23 p.m. Oct. 5, 2009

There is NO real value in diversity or being a "melting pot".

Exactly how is public education benefiting from that leftest myth?

What innnovation is happening at public schools?

IS is the consensus that public schools have become worse not better.

cdmom | 4:40 p.m. Oct. 5, 2009

Dear former charter parent,

I not only know what is going on at Mountainville, I fought against it going in on 300 East and 100 South. I knew from working with some of the Founders in other arenas that working with them is difficult, if not impossible.

I did laugh at the MVA, "please enroll we still have openings" sign last week. I heard only the week before a MVA supporter say that they had a long waiting list.

I also know some of the happenings at Monticello, a relative was on the Founding committee for about 3 months before deciding to keep her children in the District School.

The biggest problem with the problem Charter Schools is that their Founders, Boards and/or Governing Bodies, believe that they can run a school like a business. What they fail to understand before opening and sometimes years after opening is that schools are under more rules and regulations from more government entities then NASA!

Myth3 | 5:53 p.m. Oct. 5, 2009

To: RE Myth2

Traditional public schools take ALL students who walk through their doors. All races and ethnic groups. All socio-economic classes. All religions or no religions. All levels of ability. All athletes or non athletes. ALL!!! Without even trying, traditional public schools ARE diversity--and it is wonderful.

Walk into a traditional public school and see this amazing mix of students interacting, befriending, learning, and growing together. JUST LIKE THE SOCIETY THEY LIVE IN AND WILL WORK IN. Go on--put aside your fears and do it. You will come away impressed and VERY hopeful about the future of America.

Traditional public schools have become BETTER and not worse. Miracles are happening every day. Don't be misled by the propagandists and haters. Traditional public schools are currently educating the majority of the next "Greatest Generation" and they are doing a fantastic job at it!

Word | 7:59 p.m. Oct. 5, 2009

Yo myth,

You are perpetuating myths, so knock it off. Charter schools also accept everyone who applies through the lottery system. The lottery is ran by the state so the Charter can't pick and choose who they take. That is the law.

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