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Utah Symphony gets new director
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INTONATION For Fishcer To FIX | 2:59 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
Fischer, being a professional musician and have heard the best in the world, the
biggest problem that hurts my ears when listening to the Utah Symphony is the
very poor intonation.
The Utah Symphony have, to my ears, an intonation problems that makes one so uncomfortable when listening to it. Some may think that's not so, but it's very difficult to ignore it when you have perfect pitch, which aggravates it even more.
The Utah Symphony strings feels like sandpaper to my ears. The Boston Symphony strings, like velvet.
So, please, Mr. Fischer, take care of the intonation problems that are deeply inherent in the technique of the orchestra. The Cleveland, is one of many in the US of clean intonation.
This comment may offend some people, and especially the orchestra and its management. It's for that reason that it's never progressed further than a regional orchestra, never attracting high calibered name of international conductors.
Barenboim, Muti, Maazel, Levine, Haitink, Rattle, Mehta, etc, and many others in the past, such as Bernstein, Karajan, etc, they would never come because they don't appreciate the lack of quality of the Utah Symphony.
The Utah Symphony have, to my ears, an intonation problems that makes one so uncomfortable when listening to it. Some may think that's not so, but it's very difficult to ignore it when you have perfect pitch, which aggravates it even more.
The Utah Symphony strings feels like sandpaper to my ears. The Boston Symphony strings, like velvet.
So, please, Mr. Fischer, take care of the intonation problems that are deeply inherent in the technique of the orchestra. The Cleveland, is one of many in the US of clean intonation.
This comment may offend some people, and especially the orchestra and its management. It's for that reason that it's never progressed further than a regional orchestra, never attracting high calibered name of international conductors.
Barenboim, Muti, Maazel, Levine, Haitink, Rattle, Mehta, etc, and many others in the past, such as Bernstein, Karajan, etc, they would never come because they don't appreciate the lack of quality of the Utah Symphony.
RE Intonation | 8:37 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
What the Heck are you talking about. Go Cougs.
Comments continue below
@INTONATION | 10:06 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
It's not the Symphony's intonation that kept Karajan from leading it.
It's the lack of $$$. Karajan was notoriously mercenary. Why should a
world-class conductor come to SLC and get paid a tenth of what he can make in
Chicago or Berlin? As for the Orchestra's intonation, I'm not in your
league as a listener so I have to take your word for it, but they sound
wonderful to me.
Doodles | 10:32 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
I attended a concert in Symphony Hall last week, my first in more than a year.
I was very disappointed at the lack of professional attitude among the first
violinists. Several of them were gazing about the auditorium during their rests
or watching the circus performance so intently that they missed their cue. One
violinist in particular, looked and acted like a hair brain, bad hair, bad
manners, poor attention; very unprofessional. I thought that it was very sad
that a musician who plays well enough to be hired by a symphony orchestra has
the manners of a rough teenager.
Too bad. It certainly detracted from the performance.
Too bad. It certainly detracted from the performance.
Re: INTONATION | 10:42 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
Your comment is incredibly true. I am a classical music aficionado who has
traveled around Europe and listened to some of the greatest orchestras. Utah
Symphony's quality is amateur. I do hope this is worked on severely.
Money Is Not the Problem | 4:56 p.m. Sept. 25, 2009
Even though at first glance, money is an attracting factor for a world class
musician, but professional conductors are drawn to a world class orchestra much
like flies are attracted to food scraps.
A lot of money was offered to Muti to lead the New York Phil, but he refused, for whatever reasons he may have had. To refuse the post for the NY Phil is ludicrous, but he had his reasons.
Build a world class orchestra and the world class conductors will come.
The Utah Symphony is considered a great orchestra by many in the same way that McDonalds is considered as a great burger by many. For many, they don't know there is a much better burger.
Hence, for many, they don't know there is a much better orchestra.
Build it, and they will come.
A lot of money was offered to Muti to lead the New York Phil, but he refused, for whatever reasons he may have had. To refuse the post for the NY Phil is ludicrous, but he had his reasons.
Build a world class orchestra and the world class conductors will come.
The Utah Symphony is considered a great orchestra by many in the same way that McDonalds is considered as a great burger by many. For many, they don't know there is a much better burger.
Hence, for many, they don't know there is a much better orchestra.
Build it, and they will come.
To Re: INTONATION | 10:42 a.m. | 5:00 p.m. Sept. 25, 2009
" Your comment is incredibly true. I am a classical music aficionado who
has traveled around Europe and listened to some of the greatest orchestras. Utah
Symphony's quality is amateur. I do hope this is worked on
severely."
Yes, it's fine ears like yours that really knows what we're talking about when it comes to fine orchestras.
The thing is nobody will know unless they've experienced it, and you certainly have tasted the best of the best.
However, your experienced will be mocked by those who have no idea. It's very typical attitude here in Utah, who thinks the world revolves around it, and takes offense at everything that they don't agree with.
Yes, it's fine ears like yours that really knows what we're talking about when it comes to fine orchestras.
The thing is nobody will know unless they've experienced it, and you certainly have tasted the best of the best.
However, your experienced will be mocked by those who have no idea. It's very typical attitude here in Utah, who thinks the world revolves around it, and takes offense at everything that they don't agree with.
Edward Bax | 5:26 p.m. Sept. 25, 2009
Hey, I'm a classical music aficionado too, and this discussion of the Utah
Symphony's lack of intonation is rather odd. Any orchestra will have at
least some intonation problems if you listen to it enough live or on record, or
via unedited, prerecorded live radio concerts.
Yes, a world class flutist like Thierry Fischer can and will improve the sound of the orchestra, just as Joseph Silverstein did when he was music director (previously he was the concertmaster of the Boston Symphony for 22 years). There is an argument that Keith Lockhart kept the orchestra's technical competency stagnant, and I understand that one.
Now I'm not saying that the Utah Symphony is the best orchestra in the world or even the Western US. The rating game for orchestras is fun but pointless in the end. Some critics argue that technically the Berlin Philharmonic is vastly overrated.
Even Karajan (did he even have perfect pitch?) was never really known for the technical polish of his live performances, but the beauty of sound he elicited. If most of the audience enjoys the performance, despite their lack of perfect pitch or travels around Europe, that's what's important.
Yes, a world class flutist like Thierry Fischer can and will improve the sound of the orchestra, just as Joseph Silverstein did when he was music director (previously he was the concertmaster of the Boston Symphony for 22 years). There is an argument that Keith Lockhart kept the orchestra's technical competency stagnant, and I understand that one.
Now I'm not saying that the Utah Symphony is the best orchestra in the world or even the Western US. The rating game for orchestras is fun but pointless in the end. Some critics argue that technically the Berlin Philharmonic is vastly overrated.
Even Karajan (did he even have perfect pitch?) was never really known for the technical polish of his live performances, but the beauty of sound he elicited. If most of the audience enjoys the performance, despite their lack of perfect pitch or travels around Europe, that's what's important.
Fan | 8:24 p.m. Sept. 25, 2009
"RE Intonation | 8:37 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
What the Heck are you talking about. Go Cougs."
That's alright, this is how musicians talk, don't take offense ok?...........LOL!!
What the Heck are you talking about. Go Cougs."
That's alright, this is how musicians talk, don't take offense ok?...........LOL!!
TO Edward Bax | 5:26 p.m. | 4:03 a.m. Sept. 26, 2009
"Even Karajan (did he even have perfect pitch?) was never really known for
the technical polish of his live performances, but the beauty of sound he
elicited."
Ahemmm, actually, he is extremely well known for his technical polish, both in recording AND LIVE performances. He is famous for his dictatorial perfection that caused his riff with the orchestra towards the end of his life, and ended with bitterness with both orchestra and conductor.
Of course, Karajan was of the old school and such behavior is no longer tolerated in our modern era.
Still, to say that Karajan was not polished in performance, really don't know who he is that much. His reputation of this well established, and just needs a little more reading on your part.
Also, your commentary that every orchestra has at least some intonation problems, would also be true that every concert violinist would at least have played wrongs notes.
I heard Yo Yo Ma performed the Dvorak cello concerto with the NY Phil, and made a terrible wrong note during a quite moment that stuck out badly.
That's not the norm though.
The Utah Symphony's bad ensemble is the norm.
Ahemmm, actually, he is extremely well known for his technical polish, both in recording AND LIVE performances. He is famous for his dictatorial perfection that caused his riff with the orchestra towards the end of his life, and ended with bitterness with both orchestra and conductor.
Of course, Karajan was of the old school and such behavior is no longer tolerated in our modern era.
Still, to say that Karajan was not polished in performance, really don't know who he is that much. His reputation of this well established, and just needs a little more reading on your part.
Also, your commentary that every orchestra has at least some intonation problems, would also be true that every concert violinist would at least have played wrongs notes.
I heard Yo Yo Ma performed the Dvorak cello concerto with the NY Phil, and made a terrible wrong note during a quite moment that stuck out badly.
That's not the norm though.
The Utah Symphony's bad ensemble is the norm.
Rafael Blech | 10:46 a.m. Sept. 26, 2009
The Utah Symphony usually has good ensemble and intonation to my ears. As for
those who think the symphony is amateurish. Wow. Where to start? I have never
heard Karajan live in person, and I would love to know if those who want to tear
down the Utah Symphony have. Did you hear him live in person once, or in the
1960s, 1970s, and 1980s? This would make a difference.
I believe only someone who has attended dozens of performances of any orchestra live can truly judge the overall quality of their sound, intonation, ensemble, and technical polish. Otherwise they are judging only based on recordings, and that is fair enough for what it is, but it is an incomplete picture because ensemble problems usually are corrected by retakes in recordings. Karajan's studio recordings were not necessarily taken from single, uninterrupted takes.
There is no overall critical consensus that Muti, Maazel, Rattle, Levine, Barenboim, Mehta, and Haitink are great conductors, despite their storied and lengthy histories. Many think Rattle is way overrated and fiddles with interpretations, Maazel too interested in technical perfection to generate any character, Haitink dull, Levine too fastidious, Barenboim too inconsistent, and on and on.
I believe only someone who has attended dozens of performances of any orchestra live can truly judge the overall quality of their sound, intonation, ensemble, and technical polish. Otherwise they are judging only based on recordings, and that is fair enough for what it is, but it is an incomplete picture because ensemble problems usually are corrected by retakes in recordings. Karajan's studio recordings were not necessarily taken from single, uninterrupted takes.
There is no overall critical consensus that Muti, Maazel, Rattle, Levine, Barenboim, Mehta, and Haitink are great conductors, despite their storied and lengthy histories. Many think Rattle is way overrated and fiddles with interpretations, Maazel too interested in technical perfection to generate any character, Haitink dull, Levine too fastidious, Barenboim too inconsistent, and on and on.
Max Wetz | 11:30 a.m. Sept. 26, 2009
I love the Utah Symphony. I think it usually gives vivid, vital performances of
the symphonic repertoire under most conductors. I expect it will become a
premiere ensemble under Thierry Fischer as music director.
A lot of the criticism of the Utah Symphony here appears to be somewhat snobbish and elitist. I guess only someone who has never played in an orchestra or band can think that even the greatest orchestras never have issues with ensemble and intonation in rehearsal or live.
Ralph Matson, the Utah Symphony's concertmaster for over 20 years, was trained by Joseph Silverstein, who was the concertmaster of the Boston Symphony for many decades. Matson was also a member of the Cleveland Orchestra, so I gather he has some idea of their sound, intonation, and ensemble.
Gerald Elias, the Utah Symphony's associate concertmaster, was with the Boston Symphony for 13 years.
These key players help to determine an orchestra's sound, not just the music director. Sure, it does not automatically follow that they alone can make the Utah Symphony a premiere ensemble.
I guess those who think the Utah Symphony's ensemble and intonation are bad can play better than Matson.
A lot of the criticism of the Utah Symphony here appears to be somewhat snobbish and elitist. I guess only someone who has never played in an orchestra or band can think that even the greatest orchestras never have issues with ensemble and intonation in rehearsal or live.
Ralph Matson, the Utah Symphony's concertmaster for over 20 years, was trained by Joseph Silverstein, who was the concertmaster of the Boston Symphony for many decades. Matson was also a member of the Cleveland Orchestra, so I gather he has some idea of their sound, intonation, and ensemble.
Gerald Elias, the Utah Symphony's associate concertmaster, was with the Boston Symphony for 13 years.
These key players help to determine an orchestra's sound, not just the music director. Sure, it does not automatically follow that they alone can make the Utah Symphony a premiere ensemble.
I guess those who think the Utah Symphony's ensemble and intonation are bad can play better than Matson.
Florent Magnard | 12:58 p.m. Sept. 26, 2009
I enjoy going to Utah Symphony performances and hearing the beautiful sounds the
symphony makes.
Thierry Fischer is a world-class musician and will help bring the symphony to far greater overall prominence again.
The notion that the orchestras of New York, Boston, Cleveland, Chicago, and Philadelphia give more polished, refined performances is more myth than reality today. In any case, they by no means give deeper, more characterful performances than even regional orchestras. If most of the audience enjoys the performance, that is crucial--regardless of the orchestra's reputation.
The discussion of Karajan is an interesting aside, but is enlightening about conductors in general. Even if some of our writers witnessed Karajan's conducting live many times, arguments about him are bound to be controversial. He was a controversial figure.
I think on balance that Mr. Bax is correct, if you read what he said carefully and consult multiple sources.
Richard Osborne's 1998 book on Karajan argues that Karajan aggressively got control over players, but Henri-Georges Clouzot's 1965 film (even if somewhat prefabricated) of Karajan's rehearsal style reveals something underemphasized--a gifted communicator, flexibility, casual charisma and even some warmth-not unremitting dictatorship.
Thierry Fischer is a world-class musician and will help bring the symphony to far greater overall prominence again.
The notion that the orchestras of New York, Boston, Cleveland, Chicago, and Philadelphia give more polished, refined performances is more myth than reality today. In any case, they by no means give deeper, more characterful performances than even regional orchestras. If most of the audience enjoys the performance, that is crucial--regardless of the orchestra's reputation.
The discussion of Karajan is an interesting aside, but is enlightening about conductors in general. Even if some of our writers witnessed Karajan's conducting live many times, arguments about him are bound to be controversial. He was a controversial figure.
I think on balance that Mr. Bax is correct, if you read what he said carefully and consult multiple sources.
Richard Osborne's 1998 book on Karajan argues that Karajan aggressively got control over players, but Henri-Georges Clouzot's 1965 film (even if somewhat prefabricated) of Karajan's rehearsal style reveals something underemphasized--a gifted communicator, flexibility, casual charisma and even some warmth-not unremitting dictatorship.
Jean Madetoja | 3:21 p.m. Sept. 26, 2009
The Utah Symphony is a great asset to Salt Lake City and all of Utah. Its
performances are usually wonderful. Thierry Fischer's selection, in my
opinion, will greatly enhance the Utah Symphony's excellent reputation.
I also agree with Mr. Bax about Karajan. If I understand Mr. Bax correctly, he is arguing that Karajan was never really overly interested in drilled perfection and note-perfect performances (like some say Fritz Reiner, George Szell and Toscanini were).
I believe Mr. Bax is arguing that Karajan was not really renowned purely for the technical polish he elicited, but rather the ends that sufficient technical polish served. Those ends included the architecture, sense of line, phrasing, and articulation of symphonic and operatic music. Did Mr. Bax actually say that Karajan was not polished in performance? No.
Having attended two performances of the Utah Symphony conducted by Thierry Fischer, I believe he can help attain a beauty of sound from the Utah Symphony as comparable in its own way to Karajan's sound.
I wonder if those who say the Utah Symphony's ensemble is consistently bad attend any performances. Maybe they just fly to New York, and hear note-perfect performances.
I also agree with Mr. Bax about Karajan. If I understand Mr. Bax correctly, he is arguing that Karajan was never really overly interested in drilled perfection and note-perfect performances (like some say Fritz Reiner, George Szell and Toscanini were).
I believe Mr. Bax is arguing that Karajan was not really renowned purely for the technical polish he elicited, but rather the ends that sufficient technical polish served. Those ends included the architecture, sense of line, phrasing, and articulation of symphonic and operatic music. Did Mr. Bax actually say that Karajan was not polished in performance? No.
Having attended two performances of the Utah Symphony conducted by Thierry Fischer, I believe he can help attain a beauty of sound from the Utah Symphony as comparable in its own way to Karajan's sound.
I wonder if those who say the Utah Symphony's ensemble is consistently bad attend any performances. Maybe they just fly to New York, and hear note-perfect performances.
Fritz Wand | 4:00 p.m. Sept. 26, 2009
The Utah symphony is a great orchestra, and Maurice Abravanel was a great
conductor. Together with the musicians, he helped save, build and dramatically
improve the Utah Symphony, and placed it on the national and world stage.
Thierry Fischer as the new music director has similar potential in today's
media and internet driven age.
Compared to Maurice Abravanel, none of the music directors following Abravanel, whether Varujan Kojian, Joseph Silverstein, Keith Lockhart, or Thierry Fischer, are in the same league as orchestra builders. Conductors just don't stay with orchestras for decades anymore.
But times have changed.
Kojian was an outstanding violinist. At one time he was an assistant concertmaster at the Los Angeles Philharmonic under Zubin Mehta.
Silverstein is a world class string player (the concertmaster of the Boston Symphony for decades), and he undoubtedly improved the overall sound, intonation, and ensemble of the Utah Symphony.
Keith Lockhart is a versatile musician, but at times this appears to bring some lack of focus to his interpretations and the ensemble sound he gets.
Mr. Fischer is a world-class conductor and flutist(he played under Nikolaus Harnoncourt and Claudio Abbado). The Utah Symphony has chosen wisely.
Compared to Maurice Abravanel, none of the music directors following Abravanel, whether Varujan Kojian, Joseph Silverstein, Keith Lockhart, or Thierry Fischer, are in the same league as orchestra builders. Conductors just don't stay with orchestras for decades anymore.
But times have changed.
Kojian was an outstanding violinist. At one time he was an assistant concertmaster at the Los Angeles Philharmonic under Zubin Mehta.
Silverstein is a world class string player (the concertmaster of the Boston Symphony for decades), and he undoubtedly improved the overall sound, intonation, and ensemble of the Utah Symphony.
Keith Lockhart is a versatile musician, but at times this appears to bring some lack of focus to his interpretations and the ensemble sound he gets.
Mr. Fischer is a world-class conductor and flutist(he played under Nikolaus Harnoncourt and Claudio Abbado). The Utah Symphony has chosen wisely.
No ordinary Caviar | 4:34 p.m. Sept. 26, 2009
I've seen caviar in grocery stores that looked delicious, and when it comes
to price, it's relatively cheap, maybe around $20 an ounce.
However, I am wondering as to how that compares to caviars that are sold at $1,200 an ounce that gets served at Hollywood parties at Oscar night.
To be honest, I have no idea, because I was never invited to any of the parties.
But it would be sour grapes for me to say that those caviars served at Oscar parties are just as good as the ones found on your grocery shelves.
So, the point of comments about Karajan, Muti, Mehta, Maazel, etc, is only to make a point not about interpretation, but about desire in conducting the orchestra, because world class attracts world class, no exceptions, much in the same way that a world class violinist wouldn't perform a violin concerto on a violin bought at Summerhays, nor a great concert pianist perform a Rachmaninov 3rd piano concerto on grandma's "upright" grand.
The refusal to use these instruments reveals a great deal about it's desirability and the reasons.
Same goes for the Utah Symphony.
However, I am wondering as to how that compares to caviars that are sold at $1,200 an ounce that gets served at Hollywood parties at Oscar night.
To be honest, I have no idea, because I was never invited to any of the parties.
But it would be sour grapes for me to say that those caviars served at Oscar parties are just as good as the ones found on your grocery shelves.
So, the point of comments about Karajan, Muti, Mehta, Maazel, etc, is only to make a point not about interpretation, but about desire in conducting the orchestra, because world class attracts world class, no exceptions, much in the same way that a world class violinist wouldn't perform a violin concerto on a violin bought at Summerhays, nor a great concert pianist perform a Rachmaninov 3rd piano concerto on grandma's "upright" grand.
The refusal to use these instruments reveals a great deal about it's desirability and the reasons.
Same goes for the Utah Symphony.
Monteux Cluytens | 5:26 p.m. Sept. 26, 2009
Thierry Fischer is an outstanding conductor and excellent choice for music
director of the Utah Symphony.
Those who persist in snobbishly dismissing the Utah Symphony (and what's more elitist than allusions to caviar) should support their arguments with consistently relevant evidence from the world of orchestral performance and history, not allusions and trite metaphors passing as in-depth knowlege and coherent arguments.
Maurice Abravanel was a great conductor. He conducted the Metropolitan Opera on several occasions before he came to Utah. But that's beside the point. Even Karajan conducted in Aachen for quite some time before he ever ended up permanently in Berlin and Vienna.
The big name conductors are attracted to the big name orchestras because these orchestras have a storied tradition of performances, be they good or bad.
But on any given night, the Utah Symphony, the Oregon Symphony, the Detroit Symphony, and the Cincinnati Symphony, just to name a few, can perform with as much passion, polish, and character as any orchestra in the nation or world, and that includes the Staatskapelle Dresden and the Vienna Philharmonic.
Some think halibut tastes better than any caviar, and chefs like Abravanel, Silverstein and Fischer matter.
Those who persist in snobbishly dismissing the Utah Symphony (and what's more elitist than allusions to caviar) should support their arguments with consistently relevant evidence from the world of orchestral performance and history, not allusions and trite metaphors passing as in-depth knowlege and coherent arguments.
Maurice Abravanel was a great conductor. He conducted the Metropolitan Opera on several occasions before he came to Utah. But that's beside the point. Even Karajan conducted in Aachen for quite some time before he ever ended up permanently in Berlin and Vienna.
The big name conductors are attracted to the big name orchestras because these orchestras have a storied tradition of performances, be they good or bad.
But on any given night, the Utah Symphony, the Oregon Symphony, the Detroit Symphony, and the Cincinnati Symphony, just to name a few, can perform with as much passion, polish, and character as any orchestra in the nation or world, and that includes the Staatskapelle Dresden and the Vienna Philharmonic.
Some think halibut tastes better than any caviar, and chefs like Abravanel, Silverstein and Fischer matter.
Composers as conductors | 6:11 p.m. Sept. 26, 2009
It's really interesting for some to note that, just because a conductor is
a great performer suddenly is also a great conductor.
This was also assumed when composers were found out to be bad conductors, even of their own music.
Yes, certainly there are conductors emerged out of the ranks of the orchestra, or soloist, but even the concert master, principal players does not make one a fine conductor, and Silverstein proved that in spades.
Domingo, Perlman, Zukerman, Rostropovich, was only just good conductors, but as they can perform in the world stage as great soloists, they'll never be considered as great conductors. If they were, they would've been given a chief conductor's post in a major orchestra.
Lockhart only tenured in low a quality orchestra such as the Utah Sym, whereas Dudamel, a much younger and less tenured conductor, yet now have conducted the NY Phil, Berlin Phil, Vienna Phil, and Chicago Sym and many other major orchestra, which Lockhart had never done to any of these just mentioned. Now he is chief of LA Phil.
It's hard to see that quality orchestras brings quality conductors, and vice-versa.
This was also assumed when composers were found out to be bad conductors, even of their own music.
Yes, certainly there are conductors emerged out of the ranks of the orchestra, or soloist, but even the concert master, principal players does not make one a fine conductor, and Silverstein proved that in spades.
Domingo, Perlman, Zukerman, Rostropovich, was only just good conductors, but as they can perform in the world stage as great soloists, they'll never be considered as great conductors. If they were, they would've been given a chief conductor's post in a major orchestra.
Lockhart only tenured in low a quality orchestra such as the Utah Sym, whereas Dudamel, a much younger and less tenured conductor, yet now have conducted the NY Phil, Berlin Phil, Vienna Phil, and Chicago Sym and many other major orchestra, which Lockhart had never done to any of these just mentioned. Now he is chief of LA Phil.
It's hard to see that quality orchestras brings quality conductors, and vice-versa.
Monteux, here's the evidence | 6:21 p.m. Sept. 26, 2009
The evidence is simple.
NO major conductor comes to conduct the Utah Sym.
NONE!!!
ZERO!!!!
It's hard to come to terms of owning up to how poor of an orchestra the Utah Sym is, this I know, especially when you're a Utahn.
But, please show some evidence that the Utah Sym is ever in the vocabulary of any orchestral conductor of repute.
If you think Abravanel is one of them, then the debate stops right here, as it's pointless to discuss with someone who hasn't really tasted the best of the best.
Look, it's obvious that you think the Utah Sym is world class, and I'll let you believe in that as much as you like.
I guess all the rest of the world class conductors are wrong, and missing out, big time.
NO major conductor comes to conduct the Utah Sym.
NONE!!!
ZERO!!!!
It's hard to come to terms of owning up to how poor of an orchestra the Utah Sym is, this I know, especially when you're a Utahn.
But, please show some evidence that the Utah Sym is ever in the vocabulary of any orchestral conductor of repute.
If you think Abravanel is one of them, then the debate stops right here, as it's pointless to discuss with someone who hasn't really tasted the best of the best.
Look, it's obvious that you think the Utah Sym is world class, and I'll let you believe in that as much as you like.
I guess all the rest of the world class conductors are wrong, and missing out, big time.
John Boult | 1:02 a.m. Sept. 27, 2009
Who cares if the Utah Symphony is a great, a good, or an average orchestra.
Thierry Fischer makes the Utah Symphony sound superb.
To those who think the Utah Symphony is so subpar. Did you attend when Fischer conducted? Do you even attend Utah Symphony masterworks performances? If you do, why do you if the symphony performs so poorly? If you don't attend regularly, then what kind of insight are you really providing?
Do you even regularly attend concerts at the New York Philharmonic, Chicago Symphony, Berlin Philharmonic, and Vienna Philharmonic? I don't, but I hope that you do. Maybe you should move to one of those cities.
Just what exactly is a "major" conductor. Dudamel is a talented conductor, but the verdict is out on whether he will be a great one. Franz Welser-Most is music director of the Cleveland Orchestra, but many critics agree that he is not a great conductor.
Why could Abravanel regularly get world-class soloists like David Oistrakh and Nathan Milstein to perform with the Utah Symphony if it performed so poorly. World class violinists like Hilary Hahn, Gil Shaham, and Midori have appeared recently with the Utah Symphony too.
To those who think the Utah Symphony is so subpar. Did you attend when Fischer conducted? Do you even attend Utah Symphony masterworks performances? If you do, why do you if the symphony performs so poorly? If you don't attend regularly, then what kind of insight are you really providing?
Do you even regularly attend concerts at the New York Philharmonic, Chicago Symphony, Berlin Philharmonic, and Vienna Philharmonic? I don't, but I hope that you do. Maybe you should move to one of those cities.
Just what exactly is a "major" conductor. Dudamel is a talented conductor, but the verdict is out on whether he will be a great one. Franz Welser-Most is music director of the Cleveland Orchestra, but many critics agree that he is not a great conductor.
Why could Abravanel regularly get world-class soloists like David Oistrakh and Nathan Milstein to perform with the Utah Symphony if it performed so poorly. World class violinists like Hilary Hahn, Gil Shaham, and Midori have appeared recently with the Utah Symphony too.
Herbert Furtwangler | 2:07 a.m. Sept. 27, 2009
The Utah Symphony (a quality orchestra) is one of the top 19 in the United
States, for what it is worth. Thierry Fischer will make it a better one. Yes,
world class instrumentalists don't always make great conductors, but
I'll take a good conductor over those elusive "major" ones
anyday.
The Utah Symphony is also a highly proficient ensemble that is as flexible as any in the nation and the world. I wonder if the Vienna Philharmonic can perform the music of Leonard Bernstein and George Gershwin more idiomatically than the Utah Symphony? Of course the Vienna Philharmonic performs Bruckner more idiomatically, but not simply because he was an Austrian composer.
Several years ago the superbly experienced Polish conductor Stanislaw Skrowaczewski conducted the Utah Symphony in Bruckner's Eighth Symphony. The performance was a great one, and yes, I have heard Herbert von Karajan's great live Deutsche Grammophon recording of the Vienna Philharmonic in Bruckner's Eighth Symphony.
I also am acquainted with Mr. Monteux, and believe he lived many years in Europe. I have also heard that he has attended performances of the Vienna Staatsoper, and their orchestra does include members of the Vienna Philharmonic.
The Utah Symphony is also a highly proficient ensemble that is as flexible as any in the nation and the world. I wonder if the Vienna Philharmonic can perform the music of Leonard Bernstein and George Gershwin more idiomatically than the Utah Symphony? Of course the Vienna Philharmonic performs Bruckner more idiomatically, but not simply because he was an Austrian composer.
Several years ago the superbly experienced Polish conductor Stanislaw Skrowaczewski conducted the Utah Symphony in Bruckner's Eighth Symphony. The performance was a great one, and yes, I have heard Herbert von Karajan's great live Deutsche Grammophon recording of the Vienna Philharmonic in Bruckner's Eighth Symphony.
I also am acquainted with Mr. Monteux, and believe he lived many years in Europe. I have also heard that he has attended performances of the Vienna Staatsoper, and their orchestra does include members of the Vienna Philharmonic.
George Kertesz | 2:40 a.m. Sept. 27, 2009
The Utah Symphony is a fine orchestra with technical polish. Thierry Fischer,
the Utah Symphony's new music director, is a conductor of repute--or is
that reputation? He has conducted the Czech Philharmonic, and the Philharmonia
(London). He records for Hyperion, one of the best and most distinguished
United Kingdom record labels.
Some people may think that the BBC National Orchestra of Wales (Thierry Fischer is its principal conductor) is provincial, but they should consider expanding their critical horizons. Those who think that only the oldest orchestras can give superbly compelling, polished performances and interpretations are sadly mistaken.
Let's just consider the possibility that any major professional orchestra can perform in an outstanding, even world class fashion. This includes the Utah Symphony, the BBC National Orchestra of Wales, the Minnesota Orchestra, the Cleveland Orchestra, the Los Angeles Philharmonic, the Vienna Philharmonic, and the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra. And many others.
The days of the truly small number of "elite" orchestras are long gone. The technical caliber of the performers that all major music schools graduate today is far ahead of what it used to be. The Paganinis of today, like Hilary Hahn and Vadim Repin, know this.
Some people may think that the BBC National Orchestra of Wales (Thierry Fischer is its principal conductor) is provincial, but they should consider expanding their critical horizons. Those who think that only the oldest orchestras can give superbly compelling, polished performances and interpretations are sadly mistaken.
Let's just consider the possibility that any major professional orchestra can perform in an outstanding, even world class fashion. This includes the Utah Symphony, the BBC National Orchestra of Wales, the Minnesota Orchestra, the Cleveland Orchestra, the Los Angeles Philharmonic, the Vienna Philharmonic, and the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra. And many others.
The days of the truly small number of "elite" orchestras are long gone. The technical caliber of the performers that all major music schools graduate today is far ahead of what it used to be. The Paganinis of today, like Hilary Hahn and Vadim Repin, know this.
RE: major conductors | 9:24 a.m. Sept. 27, 2009
The so-called "major" conductors would come and conduct the Utah
Symphony if they had the budget to afford them. It isn't a question of
quality, but rather budget.
I guess you get what you pay for | 12:25 a.m. Sept. 28, 2009
RE: major conductors | 9:24 a.m. Sept. 27, 2009
"The so-called "major" conductors would come and conduct the Utah Symphony if they had the budget to afford them. It isn't a question of quality, but rather budget."
No wonder why the Utah Symphony is so poorly put together.
The old saying," YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR".
"The so-called "major" conductors would come and conduct the Utah Symphony if they had the budget to afford them. It isn't a question of quality, but rather budget."
No wonder why the Utah Symphony is so poorly put together.
The old saying," YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR".
For the hearing challenged | 12:44 a.m. Sept. 28, 2009
It's really silly to think that the entire world is a bully and attacker of
the Utah Symphony when it comes to their lack of recognition given to the
orchestra.
No reviewer in the history of classical music ever regarded the Utah Symphony to be even be close to being in the league of the other orchestras, American or Europe.
It's sad that much offense has been taken by Utahn of their beloved orchestra, and it drastically reveals either arrogance, or hearing challenged, or both.
By the way, what is meant is not one's hearing's ability, but the capacity to hear tonal clarity and purity of sound the way a world class musician hears.
By the defensiveness that's displayed in this forum, no wonder the Utah Symphony still is the laughing stock of the major orchestras.
If you look carefully, those who gets the opportunity to conduct the Utah Symphony, NEVER, EVER, given the opportunity to conduct the majors.
Go ahead, search for yourselves, as to who exactly have conducted the Utah Symphony also gets to conduct the NY Phil, Chicago Sym, Berlin Phil, Vienna Phil, London Sym, Concertgebouw, etc.
Sad isn't it?
No reviewer in the history of classical music ever regarded the Utah Symphony to be even be close to being in the league of the other orchestras, American or Europe.
It's sad that much offense has been taken by Utahn of their beloved orchestra, and it drastically reveals either arrogance, or hearing challenged, or both.
By the way, what is meant is not one's hearing's ability, but the capacity to hear tonal clarity and purity of sound the way a world class musician hears.
By the defensiveness that's displayed in this forum, no wonder the Utah Symphony still is the laughing stock of the major orchestras.
If you look carefully, those who gets the opportunity to conduct the Utah Symphony, NEVER, EVER, given the opportunity to conduct the majors.
Go ahead, search for yourselves, as to who exactly have conducted the Utah Symphony also gets to conduct the NY Phil, Chicago Sym, Berlin Phil, Vienna Phil, London Sym, Concertgebouw, etc.
Sad isn't it?
Janos Dohnanyi | 10:53 p.m. Sept. 28, 2009
All orchestras rise to prominence with great effort on the part of musicians and
conductors alike. Thierry Fischer has the conducting talent to take the Utah
Symphony to a higher level. The musicians have the talent as well.
Maurice Abravanel developed the Utah Symphony into a gutsy, polished ensemble that performed with passion and elegance. But the general standard of playing in all orchestras has improved considerably for many reasons. However, this is different than the quality of an interpretation, which is more subjective.
Those who have heard Thierry Fischer conduct the Utah Symphony agree that he can help develop the orchestra into a force to be reckoned with. His interpretations (and the technical level of playing he elicited) of Berlioz's symphonie fantastique and Schubert's Unfinished Symphony (No. 8) were world class.
Does this mean that those performances were "better" than those that have been performed by the Vienna Philharmonic, Royal Concertgebouw, Chicago Symphony and other orchestras in large cities? Of course not. No great performance is alike and a great performance is not necessarily technically perfect. Orchestras in large and small cities can give both average and great performances. The Utah Symphony is no exception.
Maurice Abravanel developed the Utah Symphony into a gutsy, polished ensemble that performed with passion and elegance. But the general standard of playing in all orchestras has improved considerably for many reasons. However, this is different than the quality of an interpretation, which is more subjective.
Those who have heard Thierry Fischer conduct the Utah Symphony agree that he can help develop the orchestra into a force to be reckoned with. His interpretations (and the technical level of playing he elicited) of Berlioz's symphonie fantastique and Schubert's Unfinished Symphony (No. 8) were world class.
Does this mean that those performances were "better" than those that have been performed by the Vienna Philharmonic, Royal Concertgebouw, Chicago Symphony and other orchestras in large cities? Of course not. No great performance is alike and a great performance is not necessarily technically perfect. Orchestras in large and small cities can give both average and great performances. The Utah Symphony is no exception.
Otto Walter | 11:24 p.m. Sept. 28, 2009
Thierry Fischer has the potential to be a great conductor, and the Utah Symphony
can follow him in that path.
It is true that conductors that have the most name recognition tend to conduct the more prominent orchestras more often.
However, in my opinion the "so-called major" conductors have more name recognition for many reasons, and not all of this recognition has to do with inherent superior technical and interpretive talent.
Muti, Maazel, Levine, Mehta, Haitink, and Rattle have recorded--and been marketed-extensively. Simply because a conductor has made more recordings and conducted more orchestras with the oldest traditions is no grounds to consider him or her a better conductor. It's almost like reading tea leaves anyways.
Maurice Abravanel conducted the Utah Symphony so much for both artistic and financial reasons. He was always seeking to enrich the cultural life of the community with better performances and a better orchestra.
Plus, guest conductors can be quite expensive, especially the ones that are hyped and marketed the most--like Dudamel, despite his great talent. In my opinion, the odds that a conductor with tremendous name recognition will elicit a better performance than Thierry Fischer are not high.
It is true that conductors that have the most name recognition tend to conduct the more prominent orchestras more often.
However, in my opinion the "so-called major" conductors have more name recognition for many reasons, and not all of this recognition has to do with inherent superior technical and interpretive talent.
Muti, Maazel, Levine, Mehta, Haitink, and Rattle have recorded--and been marketed-extensively. Simply because a conductor has made more recordings and conducted more orchestras with the oldest traditions is no grounds to consider him or her a better conductor. It's almost like reading tea leaves anyways.
Maurice Abravanel conducted the Utah Symphony so much for both artistic and financial reasons. He was always seeking to enrich the cultural life of the community with better performances and a better orchestra.
Plus, guest conductors can be quite expensive, especially the ones that are hyped and marketed the most--like Dudamel, despite his great talent. In my opinion, the odds that a conductor with tremendous name recognition will elicit a better performance than Thierry Fischer are not high.
Talich Neumann | 11:56 p.m. Sept. 28, 2009
Choosing Thierry Fischer as the new music director is an inspired choice.
Fischer is already an outstanding conductor, and hopefully he can help raise the
Utah Symphony to further prominence like the great conductor Maurice Abravanel
did.
I agree that the "so-called major" conductors are not invited to conduct the Utah Symphony because their fees are so high. But I also would argue that the overall difference in interpretive and technical quality they would bring would be negligible on average compared to what Matthias Bamert and Thierry Fischer can bring to the orchestra.
Just as a side note, Pierre Monteux conducted the Utah Symphony twice (two days each time) in 1960 and 1961. Now that was a long time ago, but if memory serves me correctly he conducted the New York Philharmonic, the Chicago Symphony, the Boston Symphony, the London Symphony, the Concertgebouw Orchestra, and the Vienna Philharmonic.
David Zinman conducted the Utah Symphony twice in the late 1980s. He has conducted the Chicago Symphony, the New York Philharmonic, the Royal Concertgebouw, the London Symphony, and the Berlin Philharmonic.
Andrew Litton has conducted the Utah Symphony three times, as well as the NY Philharmonic and the Chicago Symphony.
I agree that the "so-called major" conductors are not invited to conduct the Utah Symphony because their fees are so high. But I also would argue that the overall difference in interpretive and technical quality they would bring would be negligible on average compared to what Matthias Bamert and Thierry Fischer can bring to the orchestra.
Just as a side note, Pierre Monteux conducted the Utah Symphony twice (two days each time) in 1960 and 1961. Now that was a long time ago, but if memory serves me correctly he conducted the New York Philharmonic, the Chicago Symphony, the Boston Symphony, the London Symphony, the Concertgebouw Orchestra, and the Vienna Philharmonic.
David Zinman conducted the Utah Symphony twice in the late 1980s. He has conducted the Chicago Symphony, the New York Philharmonic, the Royal Concertgebouw, the London Symphony, and the Berlin Philharmonic.
Andrew Litton has conducted the Utah Symphony three times, as well as the NY Philharmonic and the Chicago Symphony.
JBBevan | 3:22 p.m. Oct. 1, 2009
It's a new day. Did the New York Philharmonic get a
"world-class" music director (recently)? Actually, the USO is
probably coming out at least as well.
All the bickering about the "world-class-names" above including combi-conductor-pseudonyms makes one long for LESS freedom in the press. What does any of that have to do with Mr. Fischer?
The arguments about Karajan are the most ludicrous. He rarely did guest stints in the US -- anywhere. The fact he didn't conduct in SLC proves nothing. (But he DID conduct the Vienna Philharmonic in the BYU Smith Fieldhouse in 1959 !)
The Utah Symphony is a better orchestra than we deserve -- given our size and economic base. Personally they have been a gift of unimaginable beauty for over 50 years. May the Fischer years be as good (or better) than the best years before him !!
Those with perfect pitch are not required to come.
All the bickering about the "world-class-names" above including combi-conductor-pseudonyms makes one long for LESS freedom in the press. What does any of that have to do with Mr. Fischer?
The arguments about Karajan are the most ludicrous. He rarely did guest stints in the US -- anywhere. The fact he didn't conduct in SLC proves nothing. (But he DID conduct the Vienna Philharmonic in the BYU Smith Fieldhouse in 1959 !)
The Utah Symphony is a better orchestra than we deserve -- given our size and economic base. Personally they have been a gift of unimaginable beauty for over 50 years. May the Fischer years be as good (or better) than the best years before him !!
Those with perfect pitch are not required to come.
I'm So Sorry...... | 6:05 p.m. Oct. 9, 2009
I know that it's not your fault for thinking that the Utah Symphony is a
great orchestra. I know that the grapes of Karajan, Muti, Haitink, etc, are all
second rate conductors when compared to those who conduct the Utah Sym. Also,
the Vienna Phil, the NY Phil, are all equal to the Utah Sym.
About the economic base, it's a very poor calculations as to how a great orchestra is derived.
Think Seattle, which is a much larger and richer city than Salt Lake by 3 times, and their orchestra is just as bad.
Miami, a meca for the wealthy, and the orchestra is....well, really bad. Obviously the theory of money doesn't gel as posted by another theorist here.
So, excuses, excuses, excuses.
One of the big reasons for the low quality of the Utah Sym is because, the city accepts is as is. So why change?
I'm so sorry that pride, not being able to hear what real quality is, has become the very impediment that continues in the same way that some kids grows up still believing in the tooth fairy.
Ooops, got to go, just saw Tinkerbell flying by.
About the economic base, it's a very poor calculations as to how a great orchestra is derived.
Think Seattle, which is a much larger and richer city than Salt Lake by 3 times, and their orchestra is just as bad.
Miami, a meca for the wealthy, and the orchestra is....well, really bad. Obviously the theory of money doesn't gel as posted by another theorist here.
So, excuses, excuses, excuses.
One of the big reasons for the low quality of the Utah Sym is because, the city accepts is as is. So why change?
I'm so sorry that pride, not being able to hear what real quality is, has become the very impediment that continues in the same way that some kids grows up still believing in the tooth fairy.
Ooops, got to go, just saw Tinkerbell flying by.
G. Walz | 12:44 a.m. Oct. 14, 2009
The Utah Symphony is a high quality orchestra, as is the Vienna Philharmonic,
the Pittsburgh Symphony, the Hessian (Frankfurt) Radio Symphony etc. With some
conductors and repertoire on some days all can be the equal of each other, and
on some days one could be much better than all the others. But who cares?
The playing and interpretations of all major professional orchestras can be convincing and compelling. That's just a sensible observation, not some absurd notion of "pride." By the way, Jerzy Semkow has conducted the Utah Symphony at least three times and he has conducted all the major orchestras. It appears you really don't know your conductors.
"I'm so sorry" needs to listen a little more with unbiased, perfect-pitch-free hearing and get rid of his pretensions to reasoned and analytical debate.
If he would even list a concert with the Utah Symphony that he has actually attended recently it would be exceedingly useful. The playing and interpretation of Brahms' Symphony No. 2 on October 9th and 10th, 2009 along with Messiaen's Oiseaux exotiques and Ravel's La Valse were exceptional. Anybody can pretend to be a snobbish connoisseur of classical music.
The playing and interpretations of all major professional orchestras can be convincing and compelling. That's just a sensible observation, not some absurd notion of "pride." By the way, Jerzy Semkow has conducted the Utah Symphony at least three times and he has conducted all the major orchestras. It appears you really don't know your conductors.
"I'm so sorry" needs to listen a little more with unbiased, perfect-pitch-free hearing and get rid of his pretensions to reasoned and analytical debate.
If he would even list a concert with the Utah Symphony that he has actually attended recently it would be exceedingly useful. The playing and interpretation of Brahms' Symphony No. 2 on October 9th and 10th, 2009 along with Messiaen's Oiseaux exotiques and Ravel's La Valse were exceptional. Anybody can pretend to be a snobbish connoisseur of classical music.
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I'd love to hear the orchestra perform pieces by the Swiss composers Frank Martin, Arthur Honegger, and Othmar Schoeck (Fischer has recorded works of all three), but they have to be paired with something the casual symphony audience will recognize and attend.
An example may help frame the difficulty. When the symphony performed Olivier Messiaen's Des canyons aux etoiles (inspired by Bryce Canyon in Utah) some years back under Keith Lockhart, the audience was extremely small. I believe no amount of marketing and promotion could have vastly increased the attendance--it all came down to performing a piece that few symphony subscribers probably had ever heard of along with a composer whose name is not immediately recognizable by the casual concertgoer.
Fischer faces a stiff challenge to maintain and boost attendance.