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Lehi's DNA: What's missing?
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reminds me | 6:21 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
of the old phrase, "looking for excuses in all the wrong places."
HOw about the obvious? He didn't make it.
HOw about the obvious? He didn't make it.
annonymous | 6:58 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
Unless they found Lehi's body and was able extract DNA how are they going
to know no one has his DNA in todays time????
Comments continue below
Eichendorff | 7:07 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
DNA can tell us many things, but it can't tell us everything. The more
scientists learn about DNA and population genetics, the more it will be clear
what a miserable failure the attempt to disprove the Book of Mormon using DNA
science was.
Thanks Matt | 7:16 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
Gee, is that all you have to say? I enjoy your expertise anytime. NOT REALLY!
Quite funny actually! Faith does move mountains, one shovel full at a time. GET
TO WORK!
Richard | 7:29 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
There are no decendents from Nephi. Nor are there any decendents from Frodo,
Merry & Samwise.
Anonymous | 7:43 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
Ummm....NO
Anonymous | 7:45 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
Is it possible that Unicorns existed, but didn't really exist.
Other Stuff | 7:51 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
I've never been strongly swayed--for or against the BOM--by DNA or lack of
DNA evidence. I agree it's not helpful, that, for example, all the DNA
evidence collected to date does not support a middle eastern origin for native
American populations. But...
There's alot of fog surrounding the DNA issue, long periods of time, lots of inbreeding with Asiatic groups, etc.
The real problems, with the BOM, for me, are two fold:
1) The questionable character of Joseph Smith ("glass looking", treasure hunting, Polygamy/affairs, etc.)
2) Lack of physical--archealogical--evidence to support many BOM claims--steel swords, iron tools, various types of animals, crops, written & spoken languages, etc.
However, I still find much in the BOM that is uplifting and inspiring--regardless of it's origin or authenticity. Much like I can find much of Shakespeare's writings to contain sublime truths--"neither a borrower or a lender be--but to thine own self be true and it shall follow as the night the day--thou canst be false to no man", etc. Same for the BOM, the emphasis on humility, helping the poor, Christian teachings, etc. are inspiring.
There's alot of fog surrounding the DNA issue, long periods of time, lots of inbreeding with Asiatic groups, etc.
The real problems, with the BOM, for me, are two fold:
1) The questionable character of Joseph Smith ("glass looking", treasure hunting, Polygamy/affairs, etc.)
2) Lack of physical--archealogical--evidence to support many BOM claims--steel swords, iron tools, various types of animals, crops, written & spoken languages, etc.
However, I still find much in the BOM that is uplifting and inspiring--regardless of it's origin or authenticity. Much like I can find much of Shakespeare's writings to contain sublime truths--"neither a borrower or a lender be--but to thine own self be true and it shall follow as the night the day--thou canst be false to no man", etc. Same for the BOM, the emphasis on humility, helping the poor, Christian teachings, etc. are inspiring.
SimonSays | 8:10 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
Interesting article. The nay-sayers will not accept spiritual explanations, and
when science doesn't favor them they don't accept that either.
Give me a break | 8:14 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
So what they are basically arguing is that Sarah and the other women in Lehi
group's women were not from Lehi's semitic background, or that Sarah
and the ladies didn't produce enough daughters?
Look, I believe the Book of Mormon on spiritual terms, but I can certainly understand why a geneticist, anthropologist or archaeologist wouldn't buy this argument at all. It is essentially whistling in the dark for professional apologists.
Look, I believe the Book of Mormon on spiritual terms, but I can certainly understand why a geneticist, anthropologist or archaeologist wouldn't buy this argument at all. It is essentially whistling in the dark for professional apologists.
flawed approach | 8:28 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
It's true that by testing everyone who ever lived we could put a nifty
puzzle together of lineages. But since testing is sporadic, and since DNA
frequently dissapears (when there are no daughters in a family), then the
chances are virtually 0% that the tattered picture can be reassembled. I ask one
question. When they test, how would they ever know that they have made the
discovery they are searching for? It seems like a simple question with no answer
I've ever seen. As far as I know, there's never been anyone ever
discovered through genealogy who can be traced to Lehi with any degree of
accuracy. So I ask again, how can they ever know when the DNA of Sariah is
discovered? It's an interesting study, but it's not clear to me that
this answer can be obtained. Anyone, please explain how this objective can be
reached.
Mike Johnson Fallon NV | 8:29 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
For a thousand years, the Nephites and Lamanites lived near each other and
fought wars against each other in an area a few hundred miles in each direction.
From the very beginning the Lamanites were of a different racial group. There
were always far more Lamanites than Nephites, even after the Nephites joined
with the more numerous Mulekites, the Lamanites still outnumbered them.
The Lamanites could not have just been descendants of Laman, but very likely were a pre-existing people. The Lamanites were themselves only a small part of the population in the Americas at the time.
At the end of the 1000 years, the Lamanites destroyed the Nephites.
We can argue all we want to about DNA pro and con, but ultimately we are looking for unknown DNA in a group of people destroyed 1600 years ago.
The Lamanites could not have just been descendants of Laman, but very likely were a pre-existing people. The Lamanites were themselves only a small part of the population in the Americas at the time.
At the end of the 1000 years, the Lamanites destroyed the Nephites.
We can argue all we want to about DNA pro and con, but ultimately we are looking for unknown DNA in a group of people destroyed 1600 years ago.
Missing DNA in Europeans | 8:33 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
The first settlers in Europe were Paleolithic hunter-gatherers who arrived about
40,000 years ago. About 7,500 years ago other people migrated to Europe and
brought farming to that area. The question thus arises, are modern Europeans
descended from the hunter-gatherers, the farmers, or both?
As reported in ScienceDaily, DNA was obtained from skeletons of early farmers, and the DNA contained "genetic signatures that are extremely rare in modern European populations. Based on this discovery, the researchers [who reported their results in Science magazine] conclude that early farmers did not leave much of a genetic mark on modern European populations." In fact, "'Our paper suggests that there is a good possibility that the contribution of early farmers could be close to zero,' said Science author Peter Forster from the University of Cambridge in Cambridge, UK." The ScienceDaily article continued: "Forster commented that 'It's interesting that a potentially minor migration of people into Central Europe had such a huge cultural impact,'"
This does not prove the Book of Mormon to be true, but it does show that DNA may not be a complete map of immigrations to a country.
As reported in ScienceDaily, DNA was obtained from skeletons of early farmers, and the DNA contained "genetic signatures that are extremely rare in modern European populations. Based on this discovery, the researchers [who reported their results in Science magazine] conclude that early farmers did not leave much of a genetic mark on modern European populations." In fact, "'Our paper suggests that there is a good possibility that the contribution of early farmers could be close to zero,' said Science author Peter Forster from the University of Cambridge in Cambridge, UK." The ScienceDaily article continued: "Forster commented that 'It's interesting that a potentially minor migration of people into Central Europe had such a huge cultural impact,'"
This does not prove the Book of Mormon to be true, but it does show that DNA may not be a complete map of immigrations to a country.
observer | 8:34 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
The importance of DNA evidence isn't that it "disproves" the book
of mormon story, but rather that it lends no new evidence in support of the
book's historicity, when it should if the book is really pre columbian. Add
this DNA issue to all the other criticisms of the book's historicity, and
it is not surprising that many unbiased observers have rationally concluded that
the book cannot be what the LDS Church maintains that it is.
Moessers | 8:35 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
Had Lehi's DNA been overflowing among modern Native Americans, members of
the LDS church would trumpeting this from the roof tops, declaring it's
true! It's true! Just as they waited with baited breath to proclaim the
proof when the papyrus scrolls that were supposedly the Book of Abraham were
found. Then... they were translated by modern scholars to learn they had nothing
to do with Abraham. So LDS apologists struggled to fit square pegs in round
holes. Alas... the same problem exists here.
Excuses, Excuses | 8:38 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
This article is really stretching! Even if BoM DNA were proven to be Hebrew that
doesn't explain the Bible quotes, including the ones that have been proven
incorrectly translated (re-pasted into the BoM). It doesn' say why there
are no prophecies past Joseph Smith's own day (anyone can prophecy looking
backwards). It doesn't change the fact that there are no FACTS, evidence,
of this earlier civilization. It doesn't change Oliver Cowdry's ties
to his old preacher who wrote on the same subject. It doens't change over
250 possible sources of the BoM in JS's time. It doesn't change the
outright CONDEMNATION of practicing polygamy, secret combinations (temple
rites), or the changing of the gospel of Jesus Christ to one of saving yourself.
It doesn't change the nearly 4000 changes to "the most correct
book". It doesn't change the fact we have no original records of said
civilization. Etc.
The original records we do have of things JS "translated" has proven he couldn't. Period.
The original records we do have of things JS "translated" has proven he couldn't. Period.
Sammy | 8:42 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
There were no people in America when Columbus came. They didn't exist.
There is no proof of it. and if they did they for sure didn't come from
anywhere else.
Blind but cannot see | 8:42 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
People, People, People....
Stop looking at the sun and telling me it doesn't exist.
All these attempts at trying to prove a people or events that only existed in Joseph Smith's mind is maddening.
Stop looking at the sun and telling me it doesn't exist.
All these attempts at trying to prove a people or events that only existed in Joseph Smith's mind is maddening.
RE: Anonynous | 8:57 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
"Unless they found Lehi's body and was able extract DNA how are they
going to know no one has his DNA in todays time????"
DNA contains patterns, known as Y-DNA haplogroups, that relate to early migrations tens of thousands years ago. These haplogroups come from Y-DNA which is DNA extracted from the Y chromosome and is thus transmitted from father to son. Thus, Y-DNA haplogroups trace the lineage of the male line. There are also mtDNA haplogroups that trace the female line.
Native Americans who have had their Y-DNA tested have Y-DNA haplogroups that go back to Siberia. So far, none of the haplogroups of Native Americans go to the Mediterranean area. There are two possibilities for this, and people who are objective will look at both possibilities: (a) no migrations from the Mediterranean area occurred, or (b) migrations from the Mediterranean area left no DNA signatures that have continued to today. The article discusses the second possibility.
DNA contains patterns, known as Y-DNA haplogroups, that relate to early migrations tens of thousands years ago. These haplogroups come from Y-DNA which is DNA extracted from the Y chromosome and is thus transmitted from father to son. Thus, Y-DNA haplogroups trace the lineage of the male line. There are also mtDNA haplogroups that trace the female line.
Native Americans who have had their Y-DNA tested have Y-DNA haplogroups that go back to Siberia. So far, none of the haplogroups of Native Americans go to the Mediterranean area. There are two possibilities for this, and people who are objective will look at both possibilities: (a) no migrations from the Mediterranean area occurred, or (b) migrations from the Mediterranean area left no DNA signatures that have continued to today. The article discusses the second possibility.
Anonymous | 9:06 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
I factor in the doctrines of the Book of Mormon. If the book is proved untrue, I
could never join another religion. I might still believe in God, but that's
it.
OC | 9:07 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
Don't they know where Zelph is buried? Have they tested his DNA?
Just Me | 9:07 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
"There were no people in America when Columbus came. They didn't
exist."
That statement has nothing to do with the BoM, and is a complete fabrication. Pick up any history book to see who was here when Columbus came to North America and Cortez to Mexico.
That statement has nothing to do with the BoM, and is a complete fabrication. Pick up any history book to see who was here when Columbus came to North America and Cortez to Mexico.
Rosy | 9:10 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
My husband had his DNA tested and they found that he wasn't related to any
line and the DNA guy said that his test wasn't a good advertizement for
DNA. So my husband just appeared on this earth???
kc mormon | 9:11 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
ONe thing people need to understand is that the terms "Nephite" and
"Lamanite" are very rairly used as geneological terms. They are used
rather in political terms. This can be seen by looking at the way they are used.
If you look at the way people go from Nephites to Lamanites and Lamanites to
Nephites this point is very clear. They could not change their geneology so the
terms must be political just as "Jew" and "Gentile" Only a
Jew could be called a Jew however every other person is called a Gentile. With
this in mind ANY group that was not politicaly a Nephite was a Lamanite. This
would include a person in the same city or a person thousands of miles away. Add
this to a study from Greenland were people who had known geneology going back
100's of years could not be traced to their known ancesters useing DNA
because the mothers DNA is only tracable through the daughters and the fathers
is only tracable through the sons. So if a family has two daughters and they
both only have sons then the mothers DNA is lost in the third generation.
Day dreamers | 9:13 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
Stop making up stories. The human mind seems to be very imaginative, creative
and can make up almost anything. Go read a good fiction and get it out of your
system so can read another. There are many.
Get an Education | 9:14 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
Re: Lehi's body
That is such a silly question. The Book of Mormon says he was Hebrew from Jerusalem, which means that both he and his descendants would have Hebrew DNA.
It is a matter of scientific proof that the American native inhabitants do not, that they are from Asian descent.
That is such a silly question. The Book of Mormon says he was Hebrew from Jerusalem, which means that both he and his descendants would have Hebrew DNA.
It is a matter of scientific proof that the American native inhabitants do not, that they are from Asian descent.
evidence not proof | 9:19 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
Lehi's little clan of people were just a miniscule fraction of the great
civilizations of ancient America. The first generation after Lehi went into the
wilderness and the BofM tells that there were many practices (wives and
concubines) that were not approved by God at that time. Since his own little
group were already married with families, he must have been talking about the
people with whom they mingled. The chances of locating the DNA of such a small
group who co-married with the existing races in the Americas is very slim. To
the poster above who claims there is no physical evidence of the BofM peoples
and story, you ought to update your study. There are hundreds of known
evidences.
Klaus | 9:21 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
Moessers, and if this evidence did exist would you and your buddies then
believe? I don't think it would change anything. There are enough evidences
for the Book of Mormon as it is now, but you still are able to ignore that. Most
of the evidence against the Book of Mormon I have seen here attacks Joseph
Smith, and not the book. Somehow it is easier to believe any type of evidence
against the Book of Mormon, real or not, than it is to sincerely and honestly
read the book. It is fight against it than to ask, "How could a young man
with a third grade education make this up?"
kc mormon | 9:26 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
RE: Anonynous said: "Native Americans who have had their Y-DNA tested have
Y-DNA haplogroups that go back to Siberia"
There is however one small group, Hapoltype X, wich has been found in a small percentage of pre-Columbian NAtive American DNA samples. THis group is important because X is found in Europe, the Mediteranian, and a small land locked area of Asia. NOw with you theory had it come from Asia then they would have had to leave X in other parts of Asia yet it is not found anywere else in Asia. Furthermore looking at the mutation rates it does not match Asian X but rather Mediteranian X. Now I could be like the Anti-Mormon and say this proves my point. However because I do not have Lehi's DNA I can not make that claim. It does prove however that other people that ASians came to the Americans before Columbas and left some DNA samples.
There is however one small group, Hapoltype X, wich has been found in a small percentage of pre-Columbian NAtive American DNA samples. THis group is important because X is found in Europe, the Mediteranian, and a small land locked area of Asia. NOw with you theory had it come from Asia then they would have had to leave X in other parts of Asia yet it is not found anywere else in Asia. Furthermore looking at the mutation rates it does not match Asian X but rather Mediteranian X. Now I could be like the Anti-Mormon and say this proves my point. However because I do not have Lehi's DNA I can not make that claim. It does prove however that other people that ASians came to the Americans before Columbas and left some DNA samples.
@RE: Anonynous | 8:57 a.m. | 9:30 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
The article discusses mtDNA and not male lineage Y-DNA. No conclusions in the
article suggest a or b as in your example.
ubiguitous | 9:31 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
Most every thinking educated person realizes that the Book of Mormon is man
manufactored, but that doesn't mean that it can not be a good thing. The
same as with the bylaws of many other organizations: The Elks, The Lions Club,
etc. If it provokes good behavior in its members then it is doing good. It is
not what the Mormons believe or do not believe, it is their conduct that counts.
And that is what we should judge.
Is it really true? | 9:38 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
This is a great forum for those who don't agree with the Mormon faith and
want to voice their opinion against it. Though many of them won't want to
be reminded of this, most of them have not put the Book of Mormon to the test or
ever stepped into a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints building to find
out for themselves what happens there.
I believe that if the Lord wanted us to have proof that it is all true, he would provide it, but he wants us to use our faith. I read from the Book of Mormon every day and am amazed that anyone can read it with real intent to find out if it is true and not wonder how it could have ever come to us from just one author. I have come to realize it is a true book from many inspired men. If you haven't put it to the test, yet, I recommend that you do. It has definitely changed my life for the better.
I believe that if the Lord wanted us to have proof that it is all true, he would provide it, but he wants us to use our faith. I read from the Book of Mormon every day and am amazed that anyone can read it with real intent to find out if it is true and not wonder how it could have ever come to us from just one author. I have come to realize it is a true book from many inspired men. If you haven't put it to the test, yet, I recommend that you do. It has definitely changed my life for the better.
kc mormon | 9:46 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
Get an Education said:"That is such a silly question. The Book of Mormon
says he was Hebrew from Jerusalem, which means that both he and his descendants
would have Hebrew DNA."
The problem with this line of thinking is that useing it most Isrealies would not be concidered Hebrew. Add to that the fact that the HEBREWS were made up of many people. What some think of today as Hebrews are only one tribe out of twelve. Almost all of the other 11 left and were lost as to who they are. What is today called the Jews are 99% the tribe of Judea Lehi was of the tribe of Manassah. As the vast majority of that tribe was lost to history how would we compaire to find Lehis DNA? On top of that Abraham (known as the father of the Hebrews with others from areas he went to following him) was originaly from what we call today Isreal but was a Chaldian believed to be farther east in the Arabian area. We must then ask were his fore fathers always from that area or did the perhaps migrate into that area from another area?
The problem with this line of thinking is that useing it most Isrealies would not be concidered Hebrew. Add to that the fact that the HEBREWS were made up of many people. What some think of today as Hebrews are only one tribe out of twelve. Almost all of the other 11 left and were lost as to who they are. What is today called the Jews are 99% the tribe of Judea Lehi was of the tribe of Manassah. As the vast majority of that tribe was lost to history how would we compaire to find Lehis DNA? On top of that Abraham (known as the father of the Hebrews with others from areas he went to following him) was originaly from what we call today Isreal but was a Chaldian believed to be farther east in the Arabian area. We must then ask were his fore fathers always from that area or did the perhaps migrate into that area from another area?
Check this out | 9:50 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
You need to watch this video. It is called DNA Evidence for Book of Mormon
Geography. It will answer a lot of these questions about DNA, tracing it back,
and how it works. Very interesting video.
re: Get an Education | 9:51 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
They haven't tested everyone yet. That's the point. The last I heard
they tested a little over 200 people for this particular genetic DNA test.
Scientific proof? Try again.
another observer | 9:55 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
I am not surprised that many people doubt the authenticity of the Book of
Mormon. Some are enemies of the church who will not believe no matter how much
evidence is uncovered. Some are people who do not want it to be true because
that would mean that they need to accept it and live its teachings. But others
are just people who, for whatever reason, cannot accept the fantastic claims
surrounding its origin (gold plates, angels, prophets, etc.).
For the most part, I respect those who cannot accept it as truth. But there have been many lies, exaggerations, and hostility by those determined to "prove" it was all the product of Joseph Smith's imagination.
I have read many books, including the BofM several times. I have tried reading it with a very skeptical mind and tried to see it as its critics claim. I just can't rationally conclude that this incredibly complicated work was written in a few months by a relatively uneducated first-time author. In my opinion, even the most seasoned author could spend a lifetime trying to pull off a similar feat and come up short.
For the most part, I respect those who cannot accept it as truth. But there have been many lies, exaggerations, and hostility by those determined to "prove" it was all the product of Joseph Smith's imagination.
I have read many books, including the BofM several times. I have tried reading it with a very skeptical mind and tried to see it as its critics claim. I just can't rationally conclude that this incredibly complicated work was written in a few months by a relatively uneducated first-time author. In my opinion, even the most seasoned author could spend a lifetime trying to pull off a similar feat and come up short.
Dan | 9:56 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
I didn't see any proof (for or against the Book) stated in the article. I
think the idea was that the results are inconlusive.
RE: Get an Education | 9:57 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
"It is a matter of scientific proof that the American native inhabitants do
not, that they are from Asian descent."
An earlier comment pointed out that modern Europeans will trace their DNA back to hunter-gathers with basically no hint of connections to farmers, but the European culture is that of farmers not hunter-gathers. It seems that DNA doesn't necessarily give a complete picture of where the Europeans came from.
An earlier comment pointed out that modern Europeans will trace their DNA back to hunter-gathers with basically no hint of connections to farmers, but the European culture is that of farmers not hunter-gathers. It seems that DNA doesn't necessarily give a complete picture of where the Europeans came from.
Re; other stuff | 10:00 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
In (Ex 6:3) Moses is told by God that his name is Yahweh,but In (Abraham 1:15,16
and 2:7,8)The Almighty appears and tells Abraham his name is Jehovah. The
Jewish encyclopedia states that YHWH is the distinct persoanl name of the God of
Israel,and describes Jehovah as a philological impossibility,(artificial
composite). The 17th century scholars of the KJV mis-translated Yahweh.
If Joseph would have had the Catholic Bible(Jerusalem Bible)he would have not made that mistake,they have Yahweh not Jehovah.
If Joseph would have had the Catholic Bible(Jerusalem Bible)he would have not made that mistake,they have Yahweh not Jehovah.
Alternate ending | 10:06 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
Were they expecting to get a positive result from the DNA testing? Would we
actually be seeing a headline like this?
DNA proves Book of Mormon is True
Thousands lining up to join Mormon church
All other churches now wondering what to do
DNA proves Book of Mormon is True
Thousands lining up to join Mormon church
All other churches now wondering what to do
RE: @RE: Anonynous | 10:21 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
"The article discusses mtDNA and not male lineage Y-DNA. No conclusions in
the article suggest a or b as in your example."
In my post I referred to Y-DNA because that is used in genealogy more than mtDNA. However (a) and (b) apply to mtDNA as well as Y-DNA. Whether you trace the male line with Y-DNA or the female line with mtDNA, (a) no migrations from the Mediterranean area occurred, or (b) migrations from the Mediterranean area left no DNA signatures that have continued to today.
The article discuss option b. It gave an example of a mtDNA line disappearing when an Italian son married an African woman. Similarly, the Italian Y-DNA would disappear if an Italian woman married an African man.
The disappearance of a DNA lineage is easy to understand when talking about a single family. However, an earlier post about Europe pointed out that DNA lineages of a large group can disappear. That post concluded with "This does not prove the Book of Mormon to be true, but it does show that DNA may not be a complete map of immigrations to a country." That is a significant conclusion.
In my post I referred to Y-DNA because that is used in genealogy more than mtDNA. However (a) and (b) apply to mtDNA as well as Y-DNA. Whether you trace the male line with Y-DNA or the female line with mtDNA, (a) no migrations from the Mediterranean area occurred, or (b) migrations from the Mediterranean area left no DNA signatures that have continued to today.
The article discuss option b. It gave an example of a mtDNA line disappearing when an Italian son married an African woman. Similarly, the Italian Y-DNA would disappear if an Italian woman married an African man.
The disappearance of a DNA lineage is easy to understand when talking about a single family. However, an earlier post about Europe pointed out that DNA lineages of a large group can disappear. That post concluded with "This does not prove the Book of Mormon to be true, but it does show that DNA may not be a complete map of immigrations to a country." That is a significant conclusion.
Crawfish | 10:24 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
Absence of evidence is evidence of absence. DNA is only one of about a THOUSAND
things wrong with the whole Mormon myth.
Stop blurring the lines between PLAUSIBLE and POSSIBLE. Anything is POSSIBLE in the end of the day. But PLAUSIBLE is another story...
Stop blurring the lines between PLAUSIBLE and POSSIBLE. Anything is POSSIBLE in the end of the day. But PLAUSIBLE is another story...
wow | 10:33 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
this again?
I prayed about it and didn't get warm fuzzies. Nuff said for me. Have fun arguing this point that will never be proven either way to any other groups satisfaction.
I prayed about it and didn't get warm fuzzies. Nuff said for me. Have fun arguing this point that will never be proven either way to any other groups satisfaction.
Re: Excuses | 10:54 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
Those 4000 commas and periods added to the book really denigrated the doctrines
of the "the most correct book" BofM, didn't they? Good argument!
hhh | 11:00 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
Just read and pray about it like the book says in the book of Moroni. Simple.
God is simple; it's we humans that make everything complex.
observing | 11:04 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
The Lord called them "Lost tribes" for a reason. That there
isn't scientific proof is actually further proof.
Science or God | 11:11 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
When science disproves God, science is wrong, not God. Same with the Book of
Mormon. Those looking for flaws will find them and be done, not researching
deeper. That's the way it will always be.
RE: Crawfish | 11:17 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
Sorry, but absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence, because there could
be several reasons for absence of evidence. 30 years ago there was no evidence
of planets outside our solar system. That did not mean there were no planets.
Today, we have evidence of more than 300 such planets. Absence of evidence is
just that, absence of evidence.
A Few Points | 11:19 a.m. Sept. 25, 2009
1. The painful reality is that the scientific, DNA, archeological, and
linguistic evidence, while not proving the BofM false, does not corroborate what
is claimed in the BofM. All supposed evidence claimed by apologists like FARMS
is either quite a stretch or the usual fallback of "science in this or that
area is still incomplete."
2. Given #1, for years I have thought it a mistake for the Church to fund organizations like FARMS. In the end they usually either confirm disturbing facts like JS marrying underaged girls, criticize science or historians/authors, or simply fall back on the need for testimony over proof.
3. I do not know if Lehi and his family actually existed and made the journey to S. or N. America. I DO know that the BofM solidifies my testimony of the Savior and His atonement - which in the end is ALL the Gospel is really about. I have learned to stop worrying myself over trivial aspects of the Church/Gospel that so many members find paramount (like exact attendance, WofW, and other outward appearances) and focus on two things - CHARITY and the ATONEMENT. We don't need apologists for that. Just humility and the Savior.
2. Given #1, for years I have thought it a mistake for the Church to fund organizations like FARMS. In the end they usually either confirm disturbing facts like JS marrying underaged girls, criticize science or historians/authors, or simply fall back on the need for testimony over proof.
3. I do not know if Lehi and his family actually existed and made the journey to S. or N. America. I DO know that the BofM solidifies my testimony of the Savior and His atonement - which in the end is ALL the Gospel is really about. I have learned to stop worrying myself over trivial aspects of the Church/Gospel that so many members find paramount (like exact attendance, WofW, and other outward appearances) and focus on two things - CHARITY and the ATONEMENT. We don't need apologists for that. Just humility and the Savior.
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Arnold Friberg, All
"Lehi and His People Arrive in the Promised Land" by Arnold Friberg
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