Deseret News | Does DNA disprove Lehi story?

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Does DNA disprove Lehi story?

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hbeckett | 12:47 a.m. Sept. 18, 2009

have they not read the book? Where did the Mulek come from, where did Jared and that group come from? The book is a portion of a written record of the Lehi family. Morman abridged many records mostly the plates of Nephi, that is why it is called The Book of Mormon. Moroni included some of the writings from the plates of Ether. Mormon was told to go to the place of records and take only a few records to continue the account of his life and the events that he was to record. The Book of Mormon is another testimony of Jesus Christ read it and improve the quality of your life.

The parable of two men | 2:55 a.m. Sept. 18, 2009

Once two men were walking down a certain road. Together they discovered a curious treasure chest. The first man casually glanced at the contents and began to debate possible origins of the treasure but refused to seriously observe the contents. The second man carefully studied the treasure and learned deep truths and joyfully proclaimed that what they had found was true priceless treasure! Which man was more "logical"? The first man failed to observe. The second man observed much!

Re: The parable of two men | 8:42 a.m. Sept. 18, 2009

There were actually 3 men. The third man studied the priceless treasure(Greek Bible) and realized the historical prophet could not translate Greek and left the church. HE prayed for wisdom and then studied GReek.

Comments continue below

Instereo | 9:45 a.m. Sept. 18, 2009

DNA won't disprove the Book of Mormon. DNA will just cause believers to create new explanations and to justify faith and obediance at any cost.

Anonymous | 10:19 a.m. Sept. 18, 2009

Looks like the third man didn't understand that the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible was not meant to correct the KJV to the original Greek, but to give an interpretation of it. It was to clarify meaning, not correctly translate Greek. The Greek that we have is 99.9% accurate to the Greek from 200 AD. There are just some things missing, like entire books, and a lot of context.

Greg | 10:34 a.m. Sept. 18, 2009

Whatever truth is contained in the B of M stands on its own, independent of whatever DNA evidence may tell us now or in the future.

RE; Anonymous | 11:15 a.m. Sept. 18, 2009

JST tranlations; 1. Joseph adds 12 verses to Genesis 50.(Genesis 50:33)is a Prophecy about about Joseph Smith? Joseph eliminates the Song of Solomon from the Bible, as not inspired.
(JST John 1:1)"In the beginning was the gospel"
(KJV John 1:1)"In the beginning was the Word"
All reliabe Greek manusripts from 325 AD,as well as ancient writings, 150 AD support the KJV,no support for the JST.

Numbers | 11:52 a.m. Sept. 18, 2009

From 30 to 50 original people landing on this continent you can't make the numbers of people fighting the wars and the thousands and tens of thousands of Lamanites that are killed unless Laman and Lemuel had other groups with which to form alliances just as King Mosiah formed an alliance with the Mulekites. The only explanation of the numbers of people is that there were other people surrounding Lehi's family and alliances with these other people were necessary to survive.

OC | 12:23 p.m. Sept. 18, 2009

To numbers: I think you are missing a more obvious explanation. Perhaps it is all imaginary??

RE: Instereo 9:45 a.m. | 12:28 p.m. Sept. 18, 2009

No DNA will not disprove the book of Mormon, only an IQ in the triple digits will.

To OC | 12:55 p.m. Sept. 18, 2009

I would like to see you use your imagination and with this mans 3rd grade education and write such a book as the BofM. One that thousands would be willing to leave their homes at the threat of death - or worse - and all they had to do to stop it was to say it was not true. All Joseph and Hyrum had to do to save their lives and live a normal happy life - was say it was not true. And yet they were willing to die for it as were thousands of others.

And of course you must right it in the same amount of time that Joseph Smith did. And people still hundreds of years later must be willing to join a church and go against all they have known - including for some their own families.

Go ahead and write your book - let me know the title and I will be sure to read it.....

RE: Anonymous 10:19 JST | 1:08 p.m. Sept. 18, 2009

"Somethings missing" According the Robert J. Matthews there are 3,410 verses which represent changes. Why didn't Joseph point out that (John 7:53-8.11)or(Mark 16:9-20)were missing,until they were added around 625 AD, Modern Bible translations like the(NIV)note this. Joseph Smith made massive changes to Gospels of Matthew and John. I have the New Testament Greek variant readings on these Gospels,but I have yet to find support for Joseph's claims.

Ronnie Bray | 1:24 p.m. Sept. 18, 2009

Illuminating! After Ugo's statements, there is no visible opening of the minds.

There are too many unexplainable bull's eyes in the BOM to discount it as imaginary, too much complication in the major plots and in the sub plots to consider a 3-digit IQ, for 100 is three figure, and that just will not cut it.

There is no Greek writing in the Hebrew Scriptures; the two main languages are Hebrew and Aramaic. Koine is confined to the Greek Scriptures.

How curious that modern day Bible scholars are finding faults in both O&N Testaments that deflects historic theological conclusions into paths blazed by Joseph Smith.

Instereo's 'theory' that when much more is known about DNA as it relates to the aboriginals on the double continent it will somehow [he does not say how] prove that the Book of Mormon is not the Word of God, is lame, since there is no science that will prove the O&N T's are the word of God.

Jesus told his disciples [those obedient to his direction] that the Holy Ghost alone would lead them into truth.

Jesus didn't mention DNS, archaeology, science,etc,

ILLUMINATING!

Mike | 1:40 p.m. Sept. 18, 2009

Re: Instereo. Do you know anyone with a triple digit IQ? So you are saying that all those BYU professors who beleve the B of M shouldn't be teaching cause they must have a low IQ. Makes you wonder who is the smart one.

Bill Baumgardner Sr. | 2:31 p.m. Sept. 18, 2009

There's one thing to say about satan, & that is "he never gives up, unlike too many of us". It is sad that people will let him cause them so much stress over some thing like this for soooooo many years when all they have to do is sincerely ask God if it is true & then read it & He will let all TRUE seekers of the TRUTH know it is TRUE! So go to it. :):):)

Brother Chuck Schroeder | 2:33 p.m. Sept. 18, 2009

That's a loaded question, where and when did they find the bones of a prophet named Lehi, took a sample of his DNA, did test's on it, with living human's of today and their DNA, then traced back the root's of this person, back to him?. I really think no one really has his DNA. Do you?.

RE: Ronnie Bray | 3:04 p.m. Sept. 18, 2009

The Apostles Bible,Greek Septuagint,250BC(Sep 1:1) "In the beginning God,(Ho Theos"), it agrees with the KJV
Joseph says the KJV was mis-translated,It should read;
"In the beginning the head of Gods brought forth the Gods."(HC Vol 6 p. 475)
(D&C 7;1-3)Joseph says the apostles John is still alive today.(John 21;23 NIV)..."because of the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die. If you compare it to the the KJV
.You can see where Joseph mis-understood. The Niv does a better job of translating the Greek word order.

A Question | 4:55 p.m. Sept. 18, 2009

A question | 4:54 p.m. Sept. 18, 2009
I have a question,

it says in the BOM the lamanites were cursed,

could that "curse" have "changed" their DNA?

If so, what was the nature of that "change"?

and what do look for?

Perhaps the native americans really are the decedents of the lamanites.

and whre do look"

We do NOT know where others mention in the BOM landed and lived in american,

and we do not know where nephi and his family landed and lived,

mesoamerica is just believed by tradition, and mostly because they are ruins their.

there is NOTHING in BOM that suggests they lived thier,

nor HOW the geography of the americans changed just before christ visited.

I believe it is intentional we know so little, to keep this life a test of faith.

Anonymous | 4:55 p.m. Sept. 18, 2009

Believing the book of mormon and all of the explanations is like putting a square peg in a round hole. If the book of mormon were true, there would not be the need for all of the justifications of where everyone came from and why there is no evidence of the existence of these people. If it were true, we would have DNA evidence to prove otherwise as well as artifacts and other evidence. It kills me that people will make anything up to help them believe. A man once told me that unicorns existed. I asked, "how do you know?" And he said, "there is no evidence to prove otherwise, and you can't prove they didn't exist."

An Observer | 5:13 p.m. Sept. 18, 2009

Greek is JUST a translation,

and the greek translation is only as good as the translator and source they used.

Was the source an ORGINAL source?
Can the source be trusted?

While one can give the LITERAL translation of the words,

can they, successfully and correctly, translate the thought, connotation, or intent?

for example: "bun in the oven"

Am I talking about or refering to baking or something else?

and there many more examples that even more tricky and difficult,

and thoughts in the scriptures that are much more complex,

and words, thoughts, phrases, and so forth, that do not translate well to another language.

How many times have we heard it said "something" was lost in translation?

Re; an obeserver | 6:05 p.m. Sept. 18, 2009

"The source" About 1947 the "Dead Sea Scroll were discoverd A scroll off Isaiah from around 900 B.C
was found. 95% accurate,the 5% was varieties of spelling errors and slips of the pen. The JST translation has massive changes(around 200)also large rewrites to Isaiah; for instance,(Is 29:14) .."but the book shall be delivered to a man"(Is 29:16)...read by the power of *Christ.* not an OT word.
(29;17) ....'three witnesses.... shall testify".
This can be checked. and much more

Study history | 6:34 p.m. Sept. 18, 2009

During the time that Joseph Smith lived, people were speculating about the origins of the American Indians. They had no scientific knowledge yet, so people made up theories.

One theory circulating at the time was that Indians might be descendants of a lost tribe of Israel. Joseph Smith was not the originator of this idea.

Thankfully, we have better information today.

Gwen | 6:37 p.m. Sept. 18, 2009

It is easy to fill prophecies and write books after the events have happened and the stories have been formed. It a fraud plan and simple.

Re; Study | 6:44 p.m. Sept. 18, 2009

The LDS church has never taught that American Indians are decendants of the lost tribes. Lehi wrote his ancestory he was a decendant of Joseph (sold into Eygpt)= not one of the lost 10 tribes. Thankfully, we do have better information!

Anonymous | 6:55 p.m. Sept. 18, 2009

To Re; Study 6:44,

"About twenty-five centuries ago, a hardy group left the comforts of a great city, crossed a desert, braved an ocean, and came to the shores of this, their promised land. There were two large families, those of Lehi and Ishmael, who in not many centuries numbered hundreds of millions of people on these two American continents."

- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 601

The ShamWow Guy | 6:56 p.m. Sept. 18, 2009

To Study,

"The Lord took every precaution to see that nothing might interfere with this posterity of Joseph in working out their God-given destiny and the destiny of America. He provided, and so told Lehi at the very beginning of his settlement, that: . . it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations ; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance. (2 Nephi 1:8.) The Lord so kept the land for a thousand years after Lehi landed. He so kept it in His wisdom for another thousand years after the Nephites were destroyed, perhaps to give the Lamanitish branch another chance."

- Apostle J. Reuben Clark, "Prophecies, Penalties, and Blessings," Improvement Era, 1940, v. xliii., July 1940. no. 7

shawilli | 7:02 p.m. Sept. 18, 2009

The issue of DNA and the book of Mormon has been something that the church has never really clarified, silence seems to be the churches response to the issue hoping it will blow over and go away. The issue is not going away and the critics of the church will continue to taunt and make their claims that DNA declares that the Book of Mormon is not what it claims to be, and the church will continue to keep silent. The church will continue on building chapels and temples and continue to go forward, the critics will always be with us, let them have their say and the work will continue to roll forth until it fills the earth. I for one am glad that the church does not waste time and money responding to every critic of this work. I would simply add that Christ cannot be proved to exist, I have personally never seen him in the flesh, yet I know he lives without a doubt, how? by the still small voice, the same is the case with the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, the spirit bears record.

Mormon Scholar | 7:06 p.m. Sept. 18, 2009

The Book of Mormon claims that the hemisphere was empty:

"8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.
9 Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall keep his commandments they shall be blessed upon the face of this land, and there shall be none to molest them, nor to take away the land of their inheritance; and they shall dwell safely forever. . . .
11 Yea, he will bring other nations unto them, and he will give unto them power, and he will take away from them the lands of their possessions, and he will cause them to be scattered and smitten.

- 2 Nephi, Chapter 1, Book of Mormon

zelph | 7:12 p.m. Sept. 18, 2009

"Genetic research, particularly that using mitochondrial and Y chromosome markers, provide quite emphatic refutation of any such relationship between Jews and Native Americans."

- Dr. David Glenn Smith, U.C.-Davis molecular anthropologist, 2007 Sunstone Symposium, Salt Lake City

Reality | 7:14 p.m. Sept. 18, 2009

"The Nephites suffered extinction about 400 A.D., but the Lamanites lived on in their degraded course, and are today extant upon the land as the American Indians."

- Apostle James Talmage, Apostle, Jesus the Christ, 23rd ed., p. 49

"Not only in the Book of Mormon are the descendants of Lehi called Jews, but also in the Doctrine and Covenants. In section 19, this is found: 'Which is my word to the Gentile, that soon it may go to the Jew, of whom the Lamanites are a remnant, that they may believe the gospel, and, look not for a Messiah to come who has already come.'"

- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 3, p. 264

"... the Book of Mormon tells that a small band of Israelites under Lehi migrated from Jerusalem to the Western Hemisphere about 600 B.C. Upon Lehi's death his family divided into two opposing factions, one under Lehi's oldest son, Laman (see Lamanites), and the other under a younger son, Nephi."

— Encyclopedia of Mormonism, “Native Americans,” v. 3, p. 981

Terrence | 7:27 p.m. Sept. 18, 2009

The Smithsonian has accepted the book as historically accurate. The BOM is gaining acceptance both historically and religiously as the church continues in very impressive growth rate.

The Truth Shall Set You Free | 7:31 p.m. Sept. 18, 2009

“No non-Mormon archaeologist at the present time is using the Book of Mormon as a guide in archaeological research. Nor does he know of any non-Mormon archaeologist who holds that the American Indians are descendants of the Jews, or that Christianity was known in America in the first century of our era...”

- Ulster Archaeological Society Newsletter, no. 64, p. 3

Anonymous | 7:31 p.m. Sept. 18, 2009

Are these comments for real? Do the mormons really believe this?

My Favorite Quote about the BoM | 7:32 p.m. Sept. 18, 2009

"The Lord does not intend that the Book of Mormon, shall be proved true by any archaeological findings. The Book of Mormon is itself a witness of the truth, and the promise has been given most solemnly that any person who will read it with a prayerful heart may receive the abiding testimony of its truth.”

- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 1998, v. 2, p. 196

True Blue | 9:14 a.m. Sept. 19, 2009

To Terrance,

“Your recent inquiry concerning the Smithsonian Institution's alleged use of the Book of Mormon as a scientific guide has been received in the Smithsonian's Department of Anthropology.
The Book of Mormon is a religious document and not a scientific guide. The Smithsonian Institution has never used it in archeological research and any information that you have received to the contrary is incorrect. Accurate information about the Smithsonian's position is contained in the enclosed "Statement Regarding the Book of Mormon," which was prepared to respond to the numerous inquiries that the Smithsonian receives on this topic.

"Because the Smithsonian regards the unauthorized use of its name to disseminate inaccurate information as unlawful, we would appreciate your assistance in providing us with the names of any individuals who are misusing the Smithsonian's name.”

- Statement by the National Museum of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution, Spring 1996

What a Crock | 9:17 a.m. Sept. 19, 2009

Maybe God switched continents while He was at it. That might explain the discrepancy too.

To: Terrence 7:27 | 10:21 a.m. Sept. 19, 2009

Please contact me, I have a beautiful bridge for sale in Broklyn that will look nice outside your cave.

Jim | 10:46 a.m. Sept. 19, 2009

Actually, DNA results do tend to prove the truth of the Book of Mormon. How so? When the Jaredites were destroyed, only the tribe of Jared was affected. There were millions of other Jaredites still living outside Coriantumer's domains. Following the destruction of the Nephites, the Lamanites gradually intermingled with the majority of the remnant Jaredites. These Jaredites were Asiatic so the resulting population would of course have predominantly Asiatic DNA, thus validating the Book of Mormon.

Re:Jim | 12:33 p.m. Sept. 19, 2009

There is no DNA evidence to prove Unicorns existed, so I think that proves that they did exist.

Steve | 12:54 p.m. Sept. 19, 2009

For an apologist on behalf of DNA and the Book of Mormon, look no further than Simon Southerton himself:

"In 600 BC there were probably several million American Indians living in the Americas. If a small group of Israelites, say less than thirty, entered such a massive native population, it would be very hard to detect their genes today."

Gee whiz, that's what LDS scientists like Michael Whiting, Jon Butler and Ugo Perego have been saying for years.

So, we can all agree that it isn't DNA that is the question. It is how one interprets the Book of Mormon i.e. "Limited Geography Theory" or "Hemispheric Geography Theory".

So much for the "silver bullet" of DNA against the Book of Mormon.

Just the Facts.................. | 2:10 p.m. Sept. 19, 2009

Steve,

Can you show me where in the Book of Mormon these "several million indians" are mentioned? Also, the Book of Mormon seems to indicate that the land was empty. Further, there are several statements (look above) from Church leaders that contradict your theory. Please respond. thanks

Anonymous | 2:14 p.m. Sept. 19, 2009

I forgot: not evidence also to support the existence of Unicorns. Means they must have existed because there is nothing to say that they didn't exist. What a great way of explaining things. I love it!

Rumpelstiltskin | 4:07 p.m. Sept. 19, 2009

hbeckett is right:

"The Book of Mormon is another testimony of Jesus Christ read it and improve the quality of your life."

I read the Book of Mormon and fell asleep every time! Nothing beats a good nap for "quality of life"!!

RE: Mormon Scholar | 4:58 p.m. Sept. 19, 2009

NO WHERE in those verses does it say the the americas were originally empty,

or that weren't already people there.

ANd veracity of those are proven by fact NO colonists from "old world" ever created a succesful settlement here until God brought them.

RE: Re:Jim | 12:33 p.m | 5:29 p.m. Sept. 19, 2009

Regardless of your CHILDISHNESS,

THE Jaredites were thought to have mongoloid or asiatic DNA,

as a result of what happened at the tower of babel.

they came to the america circa 2300 - 2100 B.C.

the lamanites WERE CURSED acoording to 2 NEphi 21:

"And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity...wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."

HOW this affected their DNA is unknown, or what the nature of this change would mean to thier DNA,

but one could speculate it was mongoloid or asiatic in nature,

and subsequentially the lamanites did destroy the "white and fair" nephites,

so finding "nephite" DNA may very well be nigh impossible.

So again regardless of your CHILDISH mockings about unicorns,

The current DNA evidence does NOT contradict the BOM and what it says historically.

Steve in Kaysville | 7:06 p.m. Sept. 19, 2009

RE: Mormon Scholar | 4:58,

Try looking in 2 Nephi. Also try reading what Spencer W. Kimball and other apostles and prophets have said. Also, where in the Book of Mormon does it talk about the millions of other inhabitants that the Nephites or Lamanites met? Please respond. thanks

Convincing | 5:19 p.m. Sept. 21, 2009

No matter what the facts reveal they support MY position and strengthen MY testimony.

I may be wrong, but I am never in doubt.

Allen | 12:31 a.m. Sept. 22, 2009

The first settlers in Europe are believed to have been Paleolithic hunter-gatherers who arrived about 40,000 years ago. About 7,500 years ago people migrated to Europe and brought farming to that area. The question thus arises, are modern Europeans descended from the hunter-gatherers, the farmers, or both?

Science magazine reported that DNA was obtained from skeletons of early farmers, and the DNA contained "genetic signatures that are extremely rare in modern European populations. Based on this discovery, the researchers conclude that early farmers did not leave much of a genetic mark on modern European populations." In fact, '"Our paper suggests that there is a good possibility that the contribution of early farmers could be close to zero," said Science author Peter Forster from the University of Cambridge in Cambridge, UK.'

This is an interesting parallel with the Book of Mormon. This parallel does not "prove" the Book of Mormon to be true. It is an illustration that the DNA of the American Indians is not necessarily a complete map of the migrations to the Americas.

Joe | 12:38 p.m. Oct. 6, 2009

I've read many studies on this and there are a few things overlooked. One is that there is much disagreement. One recent study concluded that the Maya are not related to any other people but some Northern Native Americans have Asiatic relationships. One explains that what we call Asian features actually didn’t arrive in Asia until some time after it was in the Americas. Some conclude they are related to people from Siberia or Mongolia, just like they thought (and these North countries have been considered by some Scholars to be where lost Israelite tribes ended up, (see SHIELDS and FAIR websites). Several studies conclude that Americans are most closely related to Asiatics, but what does that mean? The Turkic peoples of West Asia (also North Countries near and including the Middle East). We don’t know where the Altai mountain people came from, we don’t know who Asenat was (Joseph’s Egyptian wife who may have been Asiatic, Hittite, etc.
Keep an open mind, and also keep in mind that some of the people writing here, pretending to be Mormons, are probably not, they just want a strawman to rebut (Smithsonian stuff)

Joe | 12:45 p.m. Oct. 6, 2009

I just wanted to add to my above comment. I’ve spent a little time studying genetics, and I don't know why some think JOseph's tribes should have Jewish genetics. Jews are the most likely in Europe to have Asiatic markers, and Q etc, but Joseph married an Egyptian when Egypt was ruled by "Asiatics." I have spent years studying the religions of ancient America. I have amassed a mountain of definite proof that there is an undeniable detailed relationship between the religions of the Middle East and Native Americans such as the Maya, these Middle Eastern religions include ancient Christianity and even twisted Baal worship, probably brought by Laman and Lemual, who felt that their relatives (who were practicing this twisted idolatry in Jerusalem when they left) were actually keeping the Law of Moses. And, when I say this I’m not referring to isolated references, I’m mean mainstream and everywhere.

Also, the BOM tells us there were millions of people here when Lehi arrived, and they had interactions with them. It does not tell us who the Jaradites were genetically but it is very, very likely that Lamanites married in with them. Read it.

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