Reader comments
Mormon high councilor heads to Europe to speak on Judaism

Bernie Madoff scandol | 9:04 a.m. Aug. 29, 2009

The thought because he is Jewish has hurt the Jewish community never occured to me or my friends that this was a Jewish problem,it was an individual greed problem. In the early seventies,I was in the Air Force,we were in a cargo plane beginning our approach to the Tel Aviv airport,we were taking serious ground fire,to the point we had to throw flairs out,to divert the(heat seeking) missles, I looked out the windows, I saw two f4's(Fighters) with the giant stars of David on them. They obliterated our problem, and to think through them we have Jesus.

How Arrogant | 10:27 a.m. Aug. 29, 2009

Mormons should demonstrate their friendship to the Jewish community rather than lecture them on it. Quit baptizing our dead and respect OUR traditions!

Torah True | 11:41 a.m. Aug. 29, 2009

The God of Israel is the uncreated creator,even un-religious Jews would agree,the finite makes no sense without the infinite. The God of Israel,Jehovah is not a man. Shalom

Comments continue below

John Pack Lambert | 2:32 p.m. Aug. 29, 2009

To the 10:27 commentator,
Why are they your dead when they are my 3rd great-grandparents? Why do you think you have more right to claim them then me and my fellow Latter-day Saints who have direct ancestors who were Jews?

Anonymous | 3:47 p.m. Aug. 29, 2009

To John Pack Lambert: Because you have also gone ahead and baptized many of OUR ancestors who were NOT your ancestors. We, their descendants, do not appreciate that at all. If you are so silly as to think that God will only recognize his children who have been baptized in your church (after they were dead no less), it is very presumptuous on your part and VERY VERY OFFENSIVE.

RE: Johnathan @ 2:32 | 3:56 p.m. Aug. 29, 2009

You are dea wrong on this subject. You know nothing about Jewish law.

RE: John Pack Lambert. | 4:01 p.m. Aug. 29, 2009

This ritual of baptising a living person for a dead person was condemmed by the Council of Hippo in 393 A.D.. These sects which practiced this vicarious work for the dead gradually died out.
If a Jew died without some ceremonial uncleanliness,some living person had the necessary absolutuion performed on him,and the dead were accounted clean. So this is disrespecful for certain Jewish customs.

Rob | 4:29 p.m. Aug. 29, 2009

Once again JPL speaks on something he knows nothing about. Speaks well fro the mormon culture as most people who push this stuff are clueless as well. When are mormons going to get a grip and correct the wrongs of the past.

To How arrogant | 5:58 p.m. Aug. 29, 2009

The Deseret News will probably not allow this comment to be seen, like my last comment earlier today. Not all Jews think alike. I think it is questionable that you represent all Jews. In fact, I believe that there are many anti-Mormons that get on this site and represent themselves as Jews when they are not. I have Jewish heritage and don't think this way. But am a believing Mormon.

A. Nony Mouse | 6:12 p.m. Aug. 29, 2009

To 5:58PM: Not all Jews think alike, but a lot of us are not too happy with the continual baptism of our predecessors or to those Jews who died Jews in Europe between 1933 and 1945. Mormons are disrespecting the memory of those who were killed because they were Jewish. And what's worse, they're lying about the continued baptisms that are still going on to this day.

Daniel | 6:13 p.m. Aug. 29, 2009

Why are the Jews interested in anything the Mormons have to say; after all the Mormons claim that the Jews are gentils. Talk about ID theft. Maybe if the Mormons would show a little more respect for the Jews things would go better.

Val john Jennings | 7:38 p.m. Aug. 29, 2009

Mormons do not claim that Jews are Gentiles. The Book of Mormon clearly states, Jew and Gentile. Mormons believe that Christopher Columbus was a Jew and was inspired by God to seek and discover the New World. Mormons look to the time of restoration and gathering. We feel that God has begun his gathering by bringing the Jews back to Zion. Mormons describe Zion as where the pure in heart dwell. So mormons believe many Jews are pure in heart. No wonder we want our Jewish ancestors to have all God has to offer.

Jew non-Jew | 7:39 p.m. Aug. 29, 2009

"We Jews have a secret weapon in our struggle with the Arabs; We have no place to go."Golda Meir
Can you imagine telling Golda Meir,or David Ben Gurion,Mormons are the real Jews.

Jonathan | 8:07 p.m. Aug. 29, 2009

Re: 7:38

"Mormons believe that Christopher Columbus was a Jew and was inspired by God to seek and discover the New World."

Is this true? I would love to hear more.

Glad I Got Out | 9:27 p.m. Aug. 29, 2009

When I was Mormon, they used to teach that Jews were Gentiles. Only Momons were considered "God's chosen people." The very thought of that nonsense ("God's chosen people") now makes me laugh at the very thought of it.

Best of Both Worlds? | 9:31 p.m. Aug. 29, 2009

As a gay man, I also take umbrage with baptism for the dead. On the other hand, I will enjoy my "sinful" life and let you baptise me when I'm dead. That way I too will go to your Celestial Kingdom, without all the guilt and baggage associated with towing the line living your religion.

Bridges | 9:51 p.m. Aug. 29, 2009

I recently asked a Jewish Rabbi what Mormon doctrine they found to be the most strange or offensive. The response was baptism for the dead.

I suspect this is why the topic shows up immediately in the comment section of an article discussing Mormons trying to reach out to Jews. For us Mormons, as for me in particular, that is a shocking revelation. We sincerely feel we are showing ultimate kindness to those we are baptized for (Jew and non-Jews alike) by providing an opportunity (not an abligation). Along with our belief that such baptisms provide real opportunity, we also believe the dead can just as quickly reject them. This is a great conversation for Jews and Mormons to have, but not on comment pages where people often wish to vent rather than engage in civilized discourse.

In the end, it seems that Jews need more allies than enemies and perhaps an extended hand of friendship could be responded to in kind rather than with a slap. In my experience, the wonderful Jewish people are able to overlook the imperfections in Mormon idiosyncrasies and be genuinely grateful for our extended hand of friendship.

Kellie | 9:51 p.m. Aug. 29, 2009

A mormon scholar talking about Jews? Nice.... I would ask that mormons have a clear and true understanding about there faith before they try to explain or represent anothers faith.

Anonymous | 10:05 p.m. Aug. 29, 2009

The great thing about Judiasm is that you are told to question. Question. We are a diverse religion and one of our tenants is not to be missionaries and be inconsiderate to others and their beliefs. We don't need the Mormon church telling people about our religion. The arrogance of this is stunning

Ken | 10:20 p.m. Aug. 29, 2009

RE: Jonathan

You asked if this was true. I am a practicing Mormon and have been for more than 20 years and have never heard anything about the first part where they said:

"Mormons believe that Christopher Columbus was a Jew"

This is absolutely false.

The second half of that remark is correct:

We do believe that he was "inspired by God to seek and discover the New World." We think that God inspired many of the people that founded the United States where there would be a place where people could freely practice their religion.

Henry Drummond | 11:42 p.m. Aug. 29, 2009

Judging from the comments I have read so far it looks like Mark Paredes has his work cut out for him.

I'm am neither Jewish nor Mormon but when I was in the hospital with a life threatening illness an evangelical minister I know had his congregation praying for me around the clock. I may not put much stock in such things but how can I be angry with someone who makes such a gesture THEY believe will help me?

If you Mormons wish to posthumously baptize me or my ancestors through proxy because you think it will benefit us, then by all means knock yourselves out. I would rather you do that than spend the money trying to outlaw gay marriage or any number of other nutty things you do. The baptism thing doesn't take anything from anyone and only becomes offensive if we choose to make it so.

sbc | 11:50 p.m. Aug. 29, 2009

I have a question for those that are Jewish on this site. What do you think of the Jews for Jesus? I have personally met many Jews for Jesus. Now, with that in mind, with so many Jews in the world, can you control all that they do?
The Church have asked that the baptisms not be done. Not all controls have been perfect and some were done not at the churches bidding but some members that didn't follow the guidelines. Not excusing anything like this, but it can and has happened. Just as you have groups of Jews that believe Jesus Christ to be their Savior.

Help the living | 12:35 a.m. Aug. 30, 2009

So when I approach the Pearly Gates, I have to stop my progress and answer whether I want to be Mormon or not? What a bother!

And what a waste of time this nonsensical "temple work" is, especially when living people are in need of real assistance.

caedmon | 5:09 a.m. Aug. 30, 2009

Seems to me if Mormons wanted to know about Jews they should just ask a Jew.

Why ask a Chevy dealer about a Ford?

My Jewish Friends Never Ask | 8:31 a.m. Aug. 30, 2009

about baptisms for the dead. We get along great. They know I am a Mormon and respect me I respect them. I do ask them about their religion to find out about it. I am curious because I have Jewish heritage myself. 1 Cor 15:29 states Else why are they baptized for the dead? There was a reason early christians were baptizing for the dead. It is in the New Testament. All this talk about Mormons being arrogant is strange. Most Mormons I know are humble people and good people.

Kim | 8:56 a.m. Aug. 30, 2009

So here's a guy who is willing to spend his own time and money to go to Europe to teach Mormons to understand and support Israel and the Jewish people. Last count, Israel was running pretty low on supporters and friends- except for people like Mark. And yet, all he gets on this blog is criticism. And most of it has absolutely nothing whatsover to do with what he is doing- you have missed the point entirely. The point is, that in this day and age of cynicism and anti-Semitism, here is a guy who is willing to stand up and be counted as one who loves and supports Israel and the Jewish people. He's not going over there to talk about baptisms for the dead or conversion of Jews or anything else. He is going there to teach the importance of understanding the Jewish people and their very right to exist. If any of you have a problem with that- be you Mormon, Jewish, or otherwise, you are missing the point. The world needs more people like Mark Paredes, and fewer people who look for unrelated items to criticize.

RE Kim | 12:49 p.m. Aug. 30, 2009

Amen. Well said. I agree. There are not enough people in the world that care enough to do something.

Unbelievable | 2:45 p.m. Aug. 30, 2009

I thought the church was politically neutral, and yet they allow a politically-loaded speaker, right-wing zionist, to come and use LDS chapels to preach his ideas -- "make friends for the cause", of course against Arabs and Muslims, and this in European countries where the Church has to struggle for recognition. The last we need is to be identified with Zionism and attract Muslim counter reaction.

Unbelievable that the Church allows itself to be dragged into this. Where is the principle of political neutrality? Paredes, please stay home.

Don | 9:38 p.m. Aug. 30, 2009

I guess it would be too much to ask those who have negative feelings on the subject to do some homework before expressing their views. Start with reading "Israel! Do you know?" by LeGrand Richards, published in 1954 by the Deseret Book Company.

To: Kim 8:56 | 9:36 a.m. Aug. 31, 2009

If you think the Jews have few friends then we all should be so lucky: the Jews have the strongest lobby working our government, and many othe nations, and are the number one recipient of US foreign aid. They have a good sense of humor: they have allowed the Mormons to steal their ID and make themselves Jews while casting the Jews as Gentiles, now that is the epitomy of loving tolerance. They are just asking, please do not baptize us. You have to be a friend to have a friend. Friend

Anonymous | 12:50 p.m. Aug. 31, 2009

Don,

From within your insulated little bubble, you may not have noticed it, but a LOT has changed since 1954!

Come out of the last century and try to get a clue, will ya'?

To My Jewish Friends Never Ask | 1:10 p.m. Aug. 31, 2009

You misinterpret 1Cor15:29.

Paul was arguing in favor of the doctrine of resurrection because some in Corinth were following gnostic teachers teaching that Jesus was not actually resurrected.

Read his words again: "Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins."

Paul was NEVER trying to advocate baptism for dead people. Paul knew there were some believers in Corinth who erroneously thought that they should do baptisms for those who had died.

He pointed out the inconsistency of not believing in the resurrection but doing baptisms for the dead.

His point is NOT that baptism for the dead is good. His point is that baptizing someone who will never rise again is silly and a waste.

But by the same idea, we need not do baptisms for those who have died because they can be baptized WHEN THEY ARE RESURRECTED!

Baptisms for the dead is NOT Biblical.

Devin | 2:24 p.m. Aug. 31, 2009

To 1:10 p.m.

Where do you get these insights? What Biblical commentary are you reading to learn this stuff?

Sunday School Student | 3:41 p.m. Sept. 4, 2009

During the last few years The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Sunday School lessons that discuss "the gathering of Israel" have described the term as referring to Missionary work gathering people into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints where they become adopted or natural members of the house of Israel as church members. This focus seems to avoid becoming too involved in the politics of the Middle East. We would hope that this effort does not complicate institutional efforts to avoid that type of political issue.

Hallel | 3:06 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009

This all doens't matter soon all will be corrected. don't argue, trying to convert differnces just let each of us listen to Yah to know that answer. Don't get upset those who are jewish or christian at the bapt. of the dead, because you know what IS. If you know your not to baptise the dead (which it also speaks against in NT) then what mormons do won't matter beause we know otherwise. instead pray for each other to become one mind. I was raised christian, found out we have jewish heritage and now am Messianic.No one will have it all right..right now, but we can only do the best we can. And by the way...Christopher Columbus was Saphardic jew.

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