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Joseph Cramer, M.D.: Verball bullies hijacking the health-care debate
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Anonymous | 4:22 a.m. Aug. 22, 2009
GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOObamaCARE!!!!!!!
Mike Richards | 6:15 a.m. Aug. 22, 2009
Perhaps Dr. Cramer would like to propose a solution. Perhaps he knows how to
intelligently get the ear of a politician who has decided to represent Mrs.
Pelosi or Mr. Reid instead of his constituents. Perhaps he has a solution to a
government that is running wild, out of control where the Representatives ignore
their responsibilities to the people, where the Representatives vote without
reading a bill, where the Representatives cave in to their party leaders, where
the Representatives want nothing to do with the citizens that they represent.
What is the solution? Mr. Obama said that he would talk to world leaders and solve the world's problems, but he tells the Representatives to NOT listen to their constituents, to NOT hold town meetings, to NOT represent the will of the people in their districts.
What is the solution when Mr. Obama sends his 'community organisers/activists to the meetings to bully and intimidate the citizens who want to be heard?
At what point do the people of this nation have the right to stand up and shout that enough is enough? That point is already past. WE ARE NOT BEING REPRESENTED!
What is the solution? Mr. Obama said that he would talk to world leaders and solve the world's problems, but he tells the Representatives to NOT listen to their constituents, to NOT hold town meetings, to NOT represent the will of the people in their districts.
What is the solution when Mr. Obama sends his 'community organisers/activists to the meetings to bully and intimidate the citizens who want to be heard?
At what point do the people of this nation have the right to stand up and shout that enough is enough? That point is already past. WE ARE NOT BEING REPRESENTED!
Comments continue below
Ultra Bob | 7:41 a.m. Aug. 22, 2009
Yea Joseph Cramer.
The ugly forces of unscrupulous capitalists are using every trick in the book to defeat the Democrat government and prevent Health Care from becoming a public service just like the other services that the government provides.
We need prominent people like you to stand up for the people of this nation and prevent the corporations from destroying the American dream.
The ugly forces of unscrupulous capitalists are using every trick in the book to defeat the Democrat government and prevent Health Care from becoming a public service just like the other services that the government provides.
We need prominent people like you to stand up for the people of this nation and prevent the corporations from destroying the American dream.
Invisible Hand | 8:14 a.m. Aug. 22, 2009
I wholeheartedly agree. The verbal bullies are giving conservatives a bad name.
Amen | 8:15 a.m. Aug. 22, 2009
Amen. For those who favor LDS theology, even the Man Upstairs allowed for a
discussion prior to the creation of this world.
JMT | 9:01 a.m. Aug. 22, 2009
This is why doctors make horrible public policy players, as a rule of thumb.
WWWWAAAAYYYY too much touchy feely.
First of all, the only reason we are still having a debate is because these people rejected the Democrats plan of ramming a 1,040 page bill down America's throat in less then 3 weeks. For heaven sakes, President Obama spent 6 months choosing a dog for his kids, but wanted to rewrite America's economy in just three weeks!
Second, this is part of the American experience of free speech. You have different types. Of course the noble words of Jefferson, or Paine but also the messy words of the people who periodically show up in force to make demands. Takes a lot of 'average Joes' to outweigh one powerful Walmart lobbyist. Walmart by the way supports socialized medicine.
Third, what is your alternative? Both sides show up dressed in 18th century regalia and have contests for the most flowerly words? Or is this just another method of attack by the left to impose Soviet style price controls on health care?
Ultra Bob, America has a much better history with corporations than Bolsheviks. Sorry but it's true.
First of all, the only reason we are still having a debate is because these people rejected the Democrats plan of ramming a 1,040 page bill down America's throat in less then 3 weeks. For heaven sakes, President Obama spent 6 months choosing a dog for his kids, but wanted to rewrite America's economy in just three weeks!
Second, this is part of the American experience of free speech. You have different types. Of course the noble words of Jefferson, or Paine but also the messy words of the people who periodically show up in force to make demands. Takes a lot of 'average Joes' to outweigh one powerful Walmart lobbyist. Walmart by the way supports socialized medicine.
Third, what is your alternative? Both sides show up dressed in 18th century regalia and have contests for the most flowerly words? Or is this just another method of attack by the left to impose Soviet style price controls on health care?
Ultra Bob, America has a much better history with corporations than Bolsheviks. Sorry but it's true.
Mike Richards | 9:09 a.m. Aug. 22, 2009
It's comforting to see that again this week-end, just like most week-ends,
that the moderator(s) have decided to only allow those comments that support
their own ideology to be posted.
Mr. Obama's community organization is doing very well here in Utah. When he controls the minds of the moderator(s), he controls the press, then, he doesn't have to worry about the lowly citizens getting upset over his policies.
It the town meeting scenario all over again. If you don't want the people to speak, fill the rooms with your own people. If you can't find enough people who are willing be be bussed in, then tell the community organisers to "screen" those who are allowed to enter. If you can't control the questions asked and have no viable answer, then have the media publish stories of anarchy and violence.
Mr. Obama is a quick learner. Having an (unpaid) Obama supporter sitting as a moderator makes things so very convenient for the liberal left. Squelch speech before anyone reads it. Propagandize the party platform.
How very nice to see government controlled press in action right here in backwater Utah.
Mr. Obama's community organization is doing very well here in Utah. When he controls the minds of the moderator(s), he controls the press, then, he doesn't have to worry about the lowly citizens getting upset over his policies.
It the town meeting scenario all over again. If you don't want the people to speak, fill the rooms with your own people. If you can't find enough people who are willing be be bussed in, then tell the community organisers to "screen" those who are allowed to enter. If you can't control the questions asked and have no viable answer, then have the media publish stories of anarchy and violence.
Mr. Obama is a quick learner. Having an (unpaid) Obama supporter sitting as a moderator makes things so very convenient for the liberal left. Squelch speech before anyone reads it. Propagandize the party platform.
How very nice to see government controlled press in action right here in backwater Utah.
Fed up with lies! | 9:47 a.m. Aug. 22, 2009
In the cse of the health care "debate" the bullies are Obama and his
cronies, who tried to ram (or should that be Rahm?) through their 1,077 page
scheme in a two week period before people had a chance to study it.
The bullies are repeatedly telling lies about what is in it, or they may not even actually know what is in it. Obama talks about "his plan" but the only one on paper is the House bill.
Government programs are mismanaged, costly failures to do what they promise, and we cannot afford more of them. Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, Cash for Clunkers and the so-called stimulus all prove this.
It is not "bullying" to be vocal about stopping this massive take over of our health system.
It is called being a responsible citizen, to stop tyranny and the destruction of our country.
"NO TO HEALTH CARE REFORM!"
The bullies are repeatedly telling lies about what is in it, or they may not even actually know what is in it. Obama talks about "his plan" but the only one on paper is the House bill.
Government programs are mismanaged, costly failures to do what they promise, and we cannot afford more of them. Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, Cash for Clunkers and the so-called stimulus all prove this.
It is not "bullying" to be vocal about stopping this massive take over of our health system.
It is called being a responsible citizen, to stop tyranny and the destruction of our country.
"NO TO HEALTH CARE REFORM!"
Disturbing trend | 9:54 a.m. Aug. 22, 2009
Dr. Cramer is right. Healthcare is one of the biggest issues facing us and we
need a thoughtful, FACT-BASED discussion. But shouting etc. stops all
discussion. It is sad, too, to see people who are so ill-informed, believing
Congress would enact "death panels." (what Congress person wants to
give up the elderly vote?) Even more disturbing is the sight of people showing
up outside the venues where Pres. Obama is speaking, carrying LOADED weapons.
All this ties directly to Fox Cable News and talking heads Beck, Hannity, Limbaugh etc. Not only do they blatantly lie, they host guests who blatantly lie.
All this ties directly to Fox Cable News and talking heads Beck, Hannity, Limbaugh etc. Not only do they blatantly lie, they host guests who blatantly lie.
@Mike Richards | 10:30 a.m. Aug. 22, 2009
FYI You are reading the OPINION pages of the newspaper.
Opinions from both sides are on this message board and the DN is decidedly right-leaning. So what are you complaining about?
Opinions from both sides are on this message board and the DN is decidedly right-leaning. So what are you complaining about?
GNeilsen | 11:08 a.m. Aug. 22, 2009
It is to bad that some can not or do not want to seen the trueth. Many people
such as Beck and Hannity are trying to spead the facts not Lie. Unfortunatly
Obama is very short on facts and the trueth. I agree that hijacking a meeting is
wrong, but so is trying to force something down oukr throats that is not needed
or wanted. We do need health care reform badly but Obama and the rest of the
Socialist party will not accutally adress the problems but to a large degree
only wnat a socialist system. Why do they not look at real tort reform and
actually make such things as the complex billing system simple first. There are
many problems with the health care system. A government ran system will only
make more problems. Why do the democrats want to get everyone dependent on the
government anyway.
Lets get Real health care reform. But lets stop the shouting and address the problems, not make more problems. Obama and his follows just want to create a socialist system, they refuse to address the real problems. I don't like shouting, but maybe it is the only way.
Lets get Real health care reform. But lets stop the shouting and address the problems, not make more problems. Obama and his follows just want to create a socialist system, they refuse to address the real problems. I don't like shouting, but maybe it is the only way.
Mike Richards | 11:10 a.m. Aug. 22, 2009
Congress represents the people (House) and the State (Senate). The people, by a
large majority, have asked their Representatives to vote AGAINST H.R.3200. The
House isn't listening.
Mr. Obama is in serious trouble over H.R.3200. 50% disapprove. 49% approve. 60% of liberals approve of his performance. 68% of conservative disapprove. The problem that he faces is ignoring the fact that there are 2X as many conservatives who vote as there are liberals.
In the meantime liberals are crying foul when the citizens actually expect to be represented.
Mr. Obama is in serious trouble over H.R.3200. 50% disapprove. 49% approve. 60% of liberals approve of his performance. 68% of conservative disapprove. The problem that he faces is ignoring the fact that there are 2X as many conservatives who vote as there are liberals.
In the meantime liberals are crying foul when the citizens actually expect to be represented.
JMT | 11:34 a.m. Aug. 22, 2009
There is a world class double standard here. Obama and his supporters literally
want a Soviet-style America, only they think they have learned the lessons from
that failure and this time they can make it work. I have had these debates face
to face with "reformers" in my travels to New York.
If you want to have your eyes opened simply read the blogs and online newspapers from openly Socialist, Communist and Marxist groups. These people still rave about Lennin, Stalin, Mao and Tito. What you will find is the EXACT SAME rhetoric and attacks! Identical.
In fact, I would not be surprised if many of the reporters and activists first go to these websites to form their own logic and arguements.
Dr Cramer, we are not battling civility. We are battling Marxism and socialism. The greatest evil in history which only managed to kill 200-million plus during the last century alone.
Now they want to do "end of life counseling" for my parents. Obama bragged about NOT doing a pacemaker, instead painkillers. "Let them die with dignity!"
If you want to have your eyes opened simply read the blogs and online newspapers from openly Socialist, Communist and Marxist groups. These people still rave about Lennin, Stalin, Mao and Tito. What you will find is the EXACT SAME rhetoric and attacks! Identical.
In fact, I would not be surprised if many of the reporters and activists first go to these websites to form their own logic and arguements.
Dr Cramer, we are not battling civility. We are battling Marxism and socialism. The greatest evil in history which only managed to kill 200-million plus during the last century alone.
Now they want to do "end of life counseling" for my parents. Obama bragged about NOT doing a pacemaker, instead painkillers. "Let them die with dignity!"
@Mike Richards | 11:48 a.m. Aug. 22, 2009
#1 What people, by a large majority are asking their representatives to vote
against HR3200? Are you referring to those living in Red states?
#2 Are people informed as to the actual contents of the HR3200--or are they basing their opinions on false information contained in chain e-mails and talking heads like Hannity etc?
#3 Congressional Democrats have a higher approval rating than Congressional Republicans. Democrats have the majority in Congress.
When people are asked if they approve or disapprove of healthcare after reading a paragraph describing Obama's proposals, the majority APPROVE.
Liberals are crying foul when the ill-informed are shutting out reasoned discussion and debate of the issue based on FACTS.
#2 Are people informed as to the actual contents of the HR3200--or are they basing their opinions on false information contained in chain e-mails and talking heads like Hannity etc?
#3 Congressional Democrats have a higher approval rating than Congressional Republicans. Democrats have the majority in Congress.
When people are asked if they approve or disapprove of healthcare after reading a paragraph describing Obama's proposals, the majority APPROVE.
Liberals are crying foul when the ill-informed are shutting out reasoned discussion and debate of the issue based on FACTS.
Anonymous | 11:48 a.m. Aug. 22, 2009
No healthcare is better than healthcare reform. Just say no! And if you
can't get your way, then disrupt the meetings, yell and scream, and shut
the process down. Change is the antithesis of the conservative philosophy.
Gus Talwynd | 12:00 p.m. Aug. 22, 2009
What a difference it would make if only the proposals in healthcare reform were
discussed without the misinformation, untruths, spin, and disruptions.
Death panels, funding for illegal immigrants, funding for abortions, Nazi references, government takeover, and "free" healthcare are all part of a concerted effort to confuse and confound public opinion. The polls are not indicative of what people think because they have been hoodwinked by those who will profit least by healthcare reform.
There is that small segment of fringe conservatives who want to get rid of Medicare and Social Security as vile examples of the dreaded "socialism". In fact, they would remove any vestige of social program created to improve the lives of people like a police force, fire department, public education, public libraries, and other aspects of our society that are paid through taxes.
However, shifting through the cow manure in this debate is not helped by those who continue to rant about things in the proposed legislation that are just not there. Sure, there are those who cite pages in the legislation to prove their point, but cannot find the citation when asked to find the page for others to read.
Death panels, funding for illegal immigrants, funding for abortions, Nazi references, government takeover, and "free" healthcare are all part of a concerted effort to confuse and confound public opinion. The polls are not indicative of what people think because they have been hoodwinked by those who will profit least by healthcare reform.
There is that small segment of fringe conservatives who want to get rid of Medicare and Social Security as vile examples of the dreaded "socialism". In fact, they would remove any vestige of social program created to improve the lives of people like a police force, fire department, public education, public libraries, and other aspects of our society that are paid through taxes.
However, shifting through the cow manure in this debate is not helped by those who continue to rant about things in the proposed legislation that are just not there. Sure, there are those who cite pages in the legislation to prove their point, but cannot find the citation when asked to find the page for others to read.
Michael | 12:39 p.m. Aug. 22, 2009
Dr. Cramer, it seems that you are as guilty as those you belittle. It is dialog
that is wanted not shouting matches. This issue is when those who are purported
to represent the people do not listen to the people, stimulus, cap & trade,
etc., the people become frustrated. For the most part people are trying to be
civil. There are only a few that get overly excited and the media, including
yourself, tend to focus on the few bad apples instead of those that are really
trying to start a dialog. This is a huge issue that the government happy people
wish to run through without the debate required for something so huge. I would
like you to name ONE, just one, program that the government does well. One that
does not promote waste and corruption, including congress. The government was
never set up to provide all things for all. It was set up to stay out of the
way. If we take the incentive away from people to succeed we will become a
nation of failures.
Adding my voice | 1:53 p.m. Aug. 22, 2009
It's interesting; we who support freedom have the same spontaneous
response to this.
It is the government who is the stronger force and that is using it, and has always used it, to minimize contrary views.
I, as so many others, are tired of being shut up by the Big Bully of government and their effort to reduce our voice to a few questions with no comments.
We are sick of government having it all their own way. I suppose you think that the frustrated patriots who founded this nation were being uncivilised and unreasonable too. We actually are being rather nice after such a long train of abuses.
I think that government apologists will have to put up with us for once. We hear you every day in most the media, and we have had it with your monopolising the time in "public meetings" too. Now it's our turn to speak and we don't want our window of opportunity closed by the usual tricks used in public meetings to minimize our time and restrict our comments.
Where is the conservative voice among Deseret News staffers?
It is the government who is the stronger force and that is using it, and has always used it, to minimize contrary views.
I, as so many others, are tired of being shut up by the Big Bully of government and their effort to reduce our voice to a few questions with no comments.
We are sick of government having it all their own way. I suppose you think that the frustrated patriots who founded this nation were being uncivilised and unreasonable too. We actually are being rather nice after such a long train of abuses.
I think that government apologists will have to put up with us for once. We hear you every day in most the media, and we have had it with your monopolising the time in "public meetings" too. Now it's our turn to speak and we don't want our window of opportunity closed by the usual tricks used in public meetings to minimize our time and restrict our comments.
Where is the conservative voice among Deseret News staffers?
@ Tail Wind | 1:58 p.m. Aug. 22, 2009
Well you have the opportunity to spread your cow muck too. The status quo, the
"powers that be", have long spouted their agenda too, and now they are
upset that others are demanding to be heard, before they completely destroy this
nation, steam rolling their way with as little regard to constitutional law as
they can get away with.
Doesn't care | 2:41 p.m. Aug. 22, 2009
The GOP doesn't care about you. The leaders don't care about the
constitution. They don't care about your health, your money, your families
or your religion. They care only about getting back into power and enriching
their corporate masters.
CJ3 | 2:46 p.m. Aug. 22, 2009
If the proposed reforms are "Soviet-style" then why does the rest of
the free world use them? Is the whole of Europe communist?
As for the "rejection of bills" the GOP has authored, amended, and co-sponsored several alternatives only to conveniently forget to vote for them when the chips are down.
You can hardly blame Obama for the recent recession and many corporations have proven to be just as "mismanaged, costly failures (that have failed) to do what they promised" as any government institution.
Mike Richards' militant style should be enough to scare all of you into supporting rational debate.
Utahns have no right to cry about "Big Government" or socialism while it boasts one of the biggest state governments and a socialist liquor law.
As for the "rejection of bills" the GOP has authored, amended, and co-sponsored several alternatives only to conveniently forget to vote for them when the chips are down.
You can hardly blame Obama for the recent recession and many corporations have proven to be just as "mismanaged, costly failures (that have failed) to do what they promised" as any government institution.
Mike Richards' militant style should be enough to scare all of you into supporting rational debate.
Utahns have no right to cry about "Big Government" or socialism while it boasts one of the biggest state governments and a socialist liquor law.
Self-interested doctors? | 2:49 p.m. Aug. 22, 2009
I can understand this doctor, and many others, supporting this health care bill,
since it is a virtual mandate for everyone to have some level of health care,
whether they want it or not, whether they can afford it or not.
I've read much of the bill and have noticed that anyone who has not health care will be punished with a fine of two and a half percent of their income, say fifty dollars a month on an income of $2,000, totalling $600 a year in forced contributions in return for - NOTHING. Complete TYRANNY!
This means more funding for the doctors, an indirect transfer of wealth by extortion. Doctors will still have their private patients, and now a new guarantedd addition of millions of new patients, and everyone will have to support the health industry. Doctors will rake in the profits of universally mandated insurance and likely of the "fines" of those who wish to be independent of both government and the insurance industry.
Our freedom for your bank account?
I understand, I think, how Dr Cramer might be annoyed by those wishing to spoil all this for him and his professional brethren.
I've read much of the bill and have noticed that anyone who has not health care will be punished with a fine of two and a half percent of their income, say fifty dollars a month on an income of $2,000, totalling $600 a year in forced contributions in return for - NOTHING. Complete TYRANNY!
This means more funding for the doctors, an indirect transfer of wealth by extortion. Doctors will still have their private patients, and now a new guarantedd addition of millions of new patients, and everyone will have to support the health industry. Doctors will rake in the profits of universally mandated insurance and likely of the "fines" of those who wish to be independent of both government and the insurance industry.
Our freedom for your bank account?
I understand, I think, how Dr Cramer might be annoyed by those wishing to spoil all this for him and his professional brethren.
Re: @Tail Wind | 2:53 p.m. Aug. 22, 2009
You are mistaken in your use of the term "status quo." May I buy you a
mirror?
Status Quo | 3:08 p.m. Aug. 22, 2009
status quo = existing state of affairs (Oxford Concise English Dictionary)
This includes the existing administration surely.
Buy the mirror but keep it for yourself pal.
I have one and use it regularly and not for narcissism.
What I see is that I have been virtually powerless, in perpetuity, and unrepresented under the status quo. Republican or Democrat.
This includes the existing administration surely.
Buy the mirror but keep it for yourself pal.
I have one and use it regularly and not for narcissism.
What I see is that I have been virtually powerless, in perpetuity, and unrepresented under the status quo. Republican or Democrat.
@ self interested doctors? | 3:16 p.m. Aug. 22, 2009
I read the article twice attempting to determine on which side of the fence Dr
Cramer sits, to no avail.
It seems that he is either undecided, not willing to state a side publicly, or simply would like to see more rational input instead of the water-treading, mudslinging rhetoric.
The latter is a definate.
It seems that he is either undecided, not willing to state a side publicly, or simply would like to see more rational input instead of the water-treading, mudslinging rhetoric.
The latter is a definate.
BULLY | 3:16 p.m. Aug. 22, 2009
It took 8 YEARS of giving him the benefit of doubt to figure out and finally
erase all skepticism that BUSH was just another example of the Peter Principle
in action.
In 2008, Americans did not so much vote for OBAMA as much as they voted against another dose of the Peter Principal in action. As a result of the lessons learned from watching BUSH, we are hyper-vigilant about EVERYTHING our new President says or does. As a result, we have MICRO-MANAGED our assessment of his administration. Who can be successful when they are micro-managed? Who would not appear foolish if everything they said or did was held up to ridicule? All of this faultfinding has taken place in no less than 8 MONTHS on the job.
CONS are simply livid that someone other than one of their own has become the President. They have a ROVIAN OBSESSION with regaining the power they have lost by saying and doing anything to slander or discredit those who now have that power.
The HEALTH CARE REFORM debate has been hijacked by people who want OBAMA to fail; to suggest otherwise is simply disingenuous
In 2008, Americans did not so much vote for OBAMA as much as they voted against another dose of the Peter Principal in action. As a result of the lessons learned from watching BUSH, we are hyper-vigilant about EVERYTHING our new President says or does. As a result, we have MICRO-MANAGED our assessment of his administration. Who can be successful when they are micro-managed? Who would not appear foolish if everything they said or did was held up to ridicule? All of this faultfinding has taken place in no less than 8 MONTHS on the job.
CONS are simply livid that someone other than one of their own has become the President. They have a ROVIAN OBSESSION with regaining the power they have lost by saying and doing anything to slander or discredit those who now have that power.
The HEALTH CARE REFORM debate has been hijacked by people who want OBAMA to fail; to suggest otherwise is simply disingenuous
@Status Quo | 3:46 p.m. Aug. 22, 2009
And what HAS changed?! Nothing yet. Thanks for proving my point. Talk about
narcissistic behavior...
MormonDem | 5:52 p.m. Aug. 22, 2009
Thank you, doctor.
As someone in Newsweek recently put it, "If we're going to disagree, can't we disagree on stuff that's actually real?"
The conservatives have sold their soul to Rovian politics with this "death panel" nonsense. No wonder we have confused, scared seniors showing up to these town hall meetings yelling "Keep the government's hands off my Medicare."
Mike Richards: why do you deserve to be represented more than me, just because the people on your side shout louder, show up with guns, and hang nooses from trees outside congressmens' offices?
And your numbers are truly screwy. In the last SurveyUSA poll, which replicated a WSJ/NBC poll from June and produced virtually the same numbers, over 70% of Americans strongly or somewhat supported a public option.
Health care reform was one of the pillars that brought the democrats into power in 2006 and 2008. They promised us reform. They're making good on their promise. Sorry if you don't feel you're being represented, but you don't get a do-over of the November 2008 election just because you're angry.
As someone in Newsweek recently put it, "If we're going to disagree, can't we disagree on stuff that's actually real?"
The conservatives have sold their soul to Rovian politics with this "death panel" nonsense. No wonder we have confused, scared seniors showing up to these town hall meetings yelling "Keep the government's hands off my Medicare."
Mike Richards: why do you deserve to be represented more than me, just because the people on your side shout louder, show up with guns, and hang nooses from trees outside congressmens' offices?
And your numbers are truly screwy. In the last SurveyUSA poll, which replicated a WSJ/NBC poll from June and produced virtually the same numbers, over 70% of Americans strongly or somewhat supported a public option.
Health care reform was one of the pillars that brought the democrats into power in 2006 and 2008. They promised us reform. They're making good on their promise. Sorry if you don't feel you're being represented, but you don't get a do-over of the November 2008 election just because you're angry.
Ran | 6:32 p.m. Aug. 22, 2009
What a disappointing editorial!
Obamacare is about the greatest attack on the freedom of US citizens since the British attacked Boston, and Cramer wastes editorial space talking about both sides being nice and courteous!
How about addressing the underlying issues?
Obamacare is about the greatest attack on the freedom of US citizens since the British attacked Boston, and Cramer wastes editorial space talking about both sides being nice and courteous!
How about addressing the underlying issues?
MormonDem | 6:59 p.m. Aug. 22, 2009
"Obamacare is about the greatest attack on the freedom of US citizens since
the British attacked Boston."
Yes, and the Republicans who use Twitter are just like the Iranian freedom fighters.
Do Republicans really think that when they pass to the other side, they're going to walk up to holocaust survivors or American revolutionaries and say "Oh, yeah, I know exactly what you people went through. See, that tyrant Obama was pushing for this PUBLIC OPTION. I swear, it was just like Auschwitz."
These conservative oppression fantasies are disgusting.
Yes, and the Republicans who use Twitter are just like the Iranian freedom fighters.
Do Republicans really think that when they pass to the other side, they're going to walk up to holocaust survivors or American revolutionaries and say "Oh, yeah, I know exactly what you people went through. See, that tyrant Obama was pushing for this PUBLIC OPTION. I swear, it was just like Auschwitz."
These conservative oppression fantasies are disgusting.
Anonymous | 7:21 p.m. Aug. 22, 2009
losing a democratic election doesn't equal oppression.
Obamanation | 7:29 p.m. Aug. 22, 2009
Obama Cash for Caskets program is JUST like Dachau....Read the bill!!
A Doctor in Delaware | 7:32 p.m. Aug. 22, 2009
"As a physician I would first like to say I strongly support reform. Why is
there confusion on whether physicians and health-care workers are for or against
reform?
Insurance companies and other organizations profiting from our system use the term 'health care providers' to mislead the public and elected officials into believing they are the ones providing care.
Our current system is cryptic, poorly understood and cannpt be explained by any 'expert' or politician.
-Rationing exists currently.
Companies are allowed to make decisions on what is medically necessary and not held accountable when they wrongly determine what is. A patient's well being is compromised.
What is and what is 'not necessary' does not have to be listed in your plan.
-As consumers we do not know what type of needs we'll have when we're sick.
If you travel outside of your network, you're at risk for bearing the burden of your expenses.
These are only some of the reasons I feel change is necessary. There are many more.
Insurance companies and other organizations profiting from our system use the term 'health care providers' to mislead the public and elected officials into believing they are the ones providing care.
Our current system is cryptic, poorly understood and cannpt be explained by any 'expert' or politician.
-Rationing exists currently.
Companies are allowed to make decisions on what is medically necessary and not held accountable when they wrongly determine what is. A patient's well being is compromised.
What is and what is 'not necessary' does not have to be listed in your plan.
-As consumers we do not know what type of needs we'll have when we're sick.
If you travel outside of your network, you're at risk for bearing the burden of your expenses.
These are only some of the reasons I feel change is necessary. There are many more.
From Europe | 7:43 p.m. Aug. 22, 2009
I've lived for 40 years in several European countries. Enjoyed the best
health care, available to all. Government-monitored, yes. To call Pres.
Obama's plan socialist, communist, soviet etc is spreading disgusting
misinformation to scare people.
All people deserve decent and affordable health care, that's a simple moral obligation. The money-hungry private sector will not provide it. I'm not afraid of a government to step in.
All people deserve decent and affordable health care, that's a simple moral obligation. The money-hungry private sector will not provide it. I'm not afraid of a government to step in.
@BULLY | 7:45 p.m. Aug. 22, 2009
Exactly! Who CAN be successful when they are micro-managed? And government
these days is all about micro-managing "We the People".
Get off our backs government!!!!!!!
Get off our backs government!!!!!!!
Ammon Hennacy | 7:48 p.m. Aug. 22, 2009
There at least ought to be a concern for truth in any democratic dialogue. Not
Hatch or Chaffetz demagoguery, but President Obama's calm, rational
explanations at his townhalls should be the model. I know that's too
difficult for Utahns to get their minds around. Those who love the Bush TARP
bailout-for-corporations will love the insurance companies when their favorite
medical procedure will be bend over & grab your ankles.
Mike Richards | 8:37 p.m. Aug. 22, 2009
@ 10:30 a.m.,
Did you pay attention to the time stamps on the posts prior to 9:00 a.m. this morning? Did you take a snap shot of those posts? Did you also pay attention to the time stamps on the posts after 9:30 a.m. this morning and see that omitted posts had been inserted?
Your definition of "Right leaning" is YOUR definition.
On the whole, the Deseret News is consistently fair to all posters, allowing both sides of the debate to state whatever they want.
OPINIONS are important. No bill is presented to Congress before an OPINION has been formed. The OPINION section of this newspaper allows all sides of an argument to be aired, even when the OPINION lacks merit.
@ 11:48,
I used figures from the Rasmussen Poll that were less than 19 hours old at the time of my post. If you question their accuracy, perhaps you would be better served asking them how they worded the questions. While you're doing that, check the Rasmussen polls and the Zogbe polls against the 2008 elections, both primary elections and final election. You'll see how close they were to reality.
Did you pay attention to the time stamps on the posts prior to 9:00 a.m. this morning? Did you take a snap shot of those posts? Did you also pay attention to the time stamps on the posts after 9:30 a.m. this morning and see that omitted posts had been inserted?
Your definition of "Right leaning" is YOUR definition.
On the whole, the Deseret News is consistently fair to all posters, allowing both sides of the debate to state whatever they want.
OPINIONS are important. No bill is presented to Congress before an OPINION has been formed. The OPINION section of this newspaper allows all sides of an argument to be aired, even when the OPINION lacks merit.
@ 11:48,
I used figures from the Rasmussen Poll that were less than 19 hours old at the time of my post. If you question their accuracy, perhaps you would be better served asking them how they worded the questions. While you're doing that, check the Rasmussen polls and the Zogbe polls against the 2008 elections, both primary elections and final election. You'll see how close they were to reality.
@Mike Richards | 11:31 p.m. Aug. 22, 2009
You crack me up.
You wouldn't be reading the DN if it wasn't right-leaning now would you?
The editorial/opinion page of the DN is most definitely right-leaning. What progressive/liberal columnists does the DN carry? How many letters-to-the editor are liberal-leaning?
I'm sure you would argue the NY Times editorial/opinion page is liberal-leaning and I would agree with you.
You wouldn't be reading the DN if it wasn't right-leaning now would you?
The editorial/opinion page of the DN is most definitely right-leaning. What progressive/liberal columnists does the DN carry? How many letters-to-the editor are liberal-leaning?
I'm sure you would argue the NY Times editorial/opinion page is liberal-leaning and I would agree with you.
@A Dr. in Delaware | 11:45 p.m. Aug. 22, 2009
Question: Don't Drs. hate dealing with all the different insurance
companies and the various plans each insurance company offers? Republicans have
the idea of allowing people to buy insurance across State lines--wouldn't
this just increase the insurance workload on the Dr.?
Lived near the PA-Delaware border for many years. Loved it. Miss it.
Lived near the PA-Delaware border for many years. Loved it. Miss it.
Dear Disturbing Tren | 11:56 p.m. Aug. 22, 2009
And Ed Schultz, a far left liberal talk show host, doesn't lie,
doesn't bring on guests who misrepresent the truth. We are here in Europe
and driving home we can only get him at the time we drive home. He is
absolutely repugnant and disengious and they come. I find him more hateful and
spiteful than Limbaugh and Hannity put together. He says he wants the truth, but
when he gets the Obama adminstration on his show he is pure putty in their hands
and does not ask the tough questions.
Much of this would not be happening if the public had access to what the bill actually said, but the Democrats refuse to put it on line while they on recess so the American public can look at it. Mr. Obama said he wants transparency, but only on his terms. He wants open discussion, but only on his terms. While campaigning he said it would take ten years to implement socialized medicine. He knows the public doesn't remember and he is counting on this to ram this down our throats.
Much of this would not be happening if the public had access to what the bill actually said, but the Democrats refuse to put it on line while they on recess so the American public can look at it. Mr. Obama said he wants transparency, but only on his terms. He wants open discussion, but only on his terms. While campaigning he said it would take ten years to implement socialized medicine. He knows the public doesn't remember and he is counting on this to ram this down our throats.
Mike Richards | 12:00 a.m. Aug. 23, 2009
@ 11:31,
I read a lot of newspapers. To a liberal, the Deseret News *might* appear to be right-leaning. To have a liberal think that anyone who doesn't agree is a right-wing-nut means nothing at all. The people who have made up their minds without thinking and without study and without discussion have opinions, but do those opinions have validity? Do they have weight?
I would listen to any liberal who defends his position with facts, with examples related to the subject, with history, or with any other information that could be studied independently. If his information proves to be more accurate than my information, I am smart enough to include his validated opinion into my store of knowledge and to respect him.
On the other hand, if he shows ignorance of the facts, if he resorts to slinging mud, if he resorts to petty name calling, I invalidate his opinion.
When someone says that a newspaper is right-leaning without giving evidence, he is as ill-prepared as a lawyer who attempts to draw a conclusion before introducing evidence. In other words, case dismissed due to lack of evidence.
I read a lot of newspapers. To a liberal, the Deseret News *might* appear to be right-leaning. To have a liberal think that anyone who doesn't agree is a right-wing-nut means nothing at all. The people who have made up their minds without thinking and without study and without discussion have opinions, but do those opinions have validity? Do they have weight?
I would listen to any liberal who defends his position with facts, with examples related to the subject, with history, or with any other information that could be studied independently. If his information proves to be more accurate than my information, I am smart enough to include his validated opinion into my store of knowledge and to respect him.
On the other hand, if he shows ignorance of the facts, if he resorts to slinging mud, if he resorts to petty name calling, I invalidate his opinion.
When someone says that a newspaper is right-leaning without giving evidence, he is as ill-prepared as a lawyer who attempts to draw a conclusion before introducing evidence. In other words, case dismissed due to lack of evidence.
Marketplace of Ideas | 12:08 a.m. Aug. 23, 2009
America is a marketplace of ideas.
And like a marketplace, it's noisy, crowded and chaotic.
Dr. Cramer and others have argued that the debate has turned dishonest and nonsensical; that we aren't even arguing about real facts.
My response; put on your big boy pants and get over it.
That so many people distrust this bill is because President Obama and the Democrat leadership misplayed their hand.
The American Democracy is structurally conservative. The bi-cameral legislature ensures that. If we the people really wanted to make quick decisions, we'd switch to a parliamentary form of government.
With 9+ percent unemployment, a sky-high deficit and unfunded obligations to Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid, the American people have grown cautious about a health plan package that starts at $1 trillion.
So if the protesters are using trite phrases and half-truths, it's because they know in their souls that someone's trying to hoodwink them. Even if that can't articulate the hows and whys of it.
And like a marketplace, it's noisy, crowded and chaotic.
Dr. Cramer and others have argued that the debate has turned dishonest and nonsensical; that we aren't even arguing about real facts.
My response; put on your big boy pants and get over it.
That so many people distrust this bill is because President Obama and the Democrat leadership misplayed their hand.
The American Democracy is structurally conservative. The bi-cameral legislature ensures that. If we the people really wanted to make quick decisions, we'd switch to a parliamentary form of government.
With 9+ percent unemployment, a sky-high deficit and unfunded obligations to Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid, the American people have grown cautious about a health plan package that starts at $1 trillion.
So if the protesters are using trite phrases and half-truths, it's because they know in their souls that someone's trying to hoodwink them. Even if that can't articulate the hows and whys of it.
Re: @A Doc in Delaware | 11:01 a.m. Aug. 23, 2009
Unfortunately, I cannot speak for the good doctor. I simply quoted his words
found in a forum letter to a Delaware paper.
However, you are correct. Doctors, by a large margin, support reform. In researching what those in the industry are saying I found, in this order, the most common concerns to be:
1) The patient. Overwhelmingly, doctors want to see everyone covered.
2) Coordination. The "providers" aren't. They're insurance companies, and they don't communicate very well as you go from specialist to specialist.
3) The payment delivery system. "'Rationing'" is a red herring especially since we already do it."
The policymakers keep talking about costs instead of people.
John Goodman, policymaker, says, "Shifting costs from one group to another is not the same thing as controlling costs. Ironically, the best way to control costs is to liberate providers. Free them to repackage and reprice their services any way they like."
Stuart Butler, "Doctors and hospitals have no sacred right to ever-growing revenues, any more than computer makers or teachers do."
However, you are correct. Doctors, by a large margin, support reform. In researching what those in the industry are saying I found, in this order, the most common concerns to be:
1) The patient. Overwhelmingly, doctors want to see everyone covered.
2) Coordination. The "providers" aren't. They're insurance companies, and they don't communicate very well as you go from specialist to specialist.
3) The payment delivery system. "'Rationing'" is a red herring especially since we already do it."
The policymakers keep talking about costs instead of people.
John Goodman, policymaker, says, "Shifting costs from one group to another is not the same thing as controlling costs. Ironically, the best way to control costs is to liberate providers. Free them to repackage and reprice their services any way they like."
Stuart Butler, "Doctors and hospitals have no sacred right to ever-growing revenues, any more than computer makers or teachers do."
Right leaning?! | 11:49 a.m. Aug. 23, 2009
To claim that the Deseret News is "right leaning" is just the usual
liberal tactic to shift the whole political spectrum further to the left.
If it wasn't for those who participate in this forum it seems to me there would be no meaningful conservative view expressed in the Deseret News.
I am grateful we do have that opportunity ( to participate as ordinary people in a forum where you often can be heard despite your traditinal and constitutional viewpoint ).
I could, though, already make a small book of my posts that never made it onto this forum. It might be enlightening to publish such a work.
If it wasn't for those who participate in this forum it seems to me there would be no meaningful conservative view expressed in the Deseret News.
I am grateful we do have that opportunity ( to participate as ordinary people in a forum where you often can be heard despite your traditinal and constitutional viewpoint ).
I could, though, already make a small book of my posts that never made it onto this forum. It might be enlightening to publish such a work.
CJ3 | 12:19 p.m. Aug. 23, 2009
No kidding about the "small book." Me too, and I've always leaned
to the right (no, I do not have one leg that is shorter than the other).
In my experience here, comments that are critical of the right get posted less than those directed at the left. Draw your own conclusions, but it definately depends on who is in control of the delete button at the time of posting.
In my experience here, comments that are critical of the right get posted less than those directed at the left. Draw your own conclusions, but it definately depends on who is in control of the delete button at the time of posting.
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