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John Florez: Cutting services creates moral dilemma for state
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Mike Richards | 12:26 a.m. Aug. 10, 2009
Mr. Florez has made a fundamental mistake. He equates the role of the State
with the role of a church. The State is not responsible for the personal
welfare of its citizens. The citizens are responsible for their own personal
welfare. It they are 'good' citizens, they care about each other and
they personally help others. If they are not 'good' citizens, they do
nothing.
Churches have members who share common beliefs. Many churches are filled with caring and compassionate people who freely give of their time and their assets to help other members of their church. Some churches help people who are not members of the church.
Forcing people to be charitable is wrong. Good does not come from force. God does not force us to be good; therefore, the state, which most would agree is inferior to God, should not become a false and arrogant god who forces his 'children' to be good. That was not God's plan. That plan should not be tolerated by citizens of this state.
Mr. Florez, open your wallet and help your neighbor and INVITE others to do the same. That is the way to solve this problem.
Churches have members who share common beliefs. Many churches are filled with caring and compassionate people who freely give of their time and their assets to help other members of their church. Some churches help people who are not members of the church.
Forcing people to be charitable is wrong. Good does not come from force. God does not force us to be good; therefore, the state, which most would agree is inferior to God, should not become a false and arrogant god who forces his 'children' to be good. That was not God's plan. That plan should not be tolerated by citizens of this state.
Mr. Florez, open your wallet and help your neighbor and INVITE others to do the same. That is the way to solve this problem.
One side of the coin only | 7:25 a.m. Aug. 10, 2009
"therefore, the state, which most would agree is inferior to God, should
not become a false and arrogant god who forces his 'children' to be
good." Does this mean the end of the DABC is upon us? I promise I'll
be good. This citizen wants to be responsible for my own personal welfare, and
that's going to include a beer from time to time.
Comments continue below
Mike Richards | 8:37 a.m. Aug. 10, 2009
@ 7:25,
Mr. Florez is concerned about the health and the welfare of the people of Utah while you are primary concerned about having a beer!
Perhaps I need to learn to write more clearly, but when I used the words "'good' citizens", the word 'good' was not linked to the doctrine of any church, rather it was meant to define those people whose concerns extended beyond themselves.
Mr. Florez cares about people. He and I and agree that there is a great need to help others, we only disagree on the vehicle that should be used to carry the goods and services to those people.
Although I don't know Mr. Florez, I doubt that 'beer' is on his list of concerns when it comes to helping others.
Mr. Florez is concerned about the health and the welfare of the people of Utah while you are primary concerned about having a beer!
Perhaps I need to learn to write more clearly, but when I used the words "'good' citizens", the word 'good' was not linked to the doctrine of any church, rather it was meant to define those people whose concerns extended beyond themselves.
Mr. Florez cares about people. He and I and agree that there is a great need to help others, we only disagree on the vehicle that should be used to carry the goods and services to those people.
Although I don't know Mr. Florez, I doubt that 'beer' is on his list of concerns when it comes to helping others.
@Mike Richards | 8:55 a.m. Aug. 10, 2009
Exactly!
Government did nothing to help the Mormon pioneers, who had to leave the United States to find refuge.
The Church promotes self-reliance not dependence. When it helps someone that just cannot help himself, it gives him something to do in return.
The government of the USA will not even allow a manger scene on any of its premises. What have they to do with religion or charity? Government charity fosters dependence and envy. It is forced upon people whilst all donations to Church welfare are just that - donations or in other words gifts.
They are willing contributions to help those who cannot help themselves not salaries for bureaucrats and arrogant confiscations to enable the idler, the irresponsible, and the immoral.
The difference is like night and day.
Government did nothing to help the Mormon pioneers, who had to leave the United States to find refuge.
The Church promotes self-reliance not dependence. When it helps someone that just cannot help himself, it gives him something to do in return.
The government of the USA will not even allow a manger scene on any of its premises. What have they to do with religion or charity? Government charity fosters dependence and envy. It is forced upon people whilst all donations to Church welfare are just that - donations or in other words gifts.
They are willing contributions to help those who cannot help themselves not salaries for bureaucrats and arrogant confiscations to enable the idler, the irresponsible, and the immoral.
The difference is like night and day.
Proper Role | 9:22 a.m. Aug. 10, 2009
Let government govern, and let church's take care of charity. Simple
concept, now vote for those who will simply do it.
Ultra Bob | 9:29 a.m. Aug. 10, 2009
The answer to John’s concerns is simple “Utah is a republican
state”. Republicans put the importance of Business far ahead of the
concerns of people.
And in a time when it is important to promote the failure of the current government it is important to the Republicans to punish the people for their election of a democrat government.
BTW, Church is just another word for government, only with the church, you have less say about the policies.
And in a time when it is important to promote the failure of the current government it is important to the Republicans to punish the people for their election of a democrat government.
BTW, Church is just another word for government, only with the church, you have less say about the policies.
@Ultra Bob | 10:40 a.m. Aug. 10, 2009
You can select from a wide range of churches or choose none at all. You are stuck with the government. Your only voice is at election time and choices are very limited.
Already spoken | 11:12 a.m. Aug. 10, 2009
Utah legislators have already given voice to their sentiments on this issue and
why they feel they need to do nothing.
Utah legislators feel that people who are poor are just lazy and would have all they need if they were just willing to work.
Search the archives from 3 years ago - some of them have stated this verbally. Even if you are handicapped, you can work if you want to and if you are not willing to work, why should the government take care of you?
Utah legislators feel that people who are poor are just lazy and would have all they need if they were just willing to work.
Search the archives from 3 years ago - some of them have stated this verbally. Even if you are handicapped, you can work if you want to and if you are not willing to work, why should the government take care of you?
conservative mantra | 11:12 a.m. Aug. 10, 2009
As a conservative I say, "let the poor (laid off, fired, elderly, single
mothers, etc. ) pull themselves up by their own bootstraps!"
I wish... | 11:17 a.m. Aug. 10, 2009
I wish people had the same attitude concerning the government and church when it
came to telling us how to live our lives as they do when it comes to spending
taxpayer money on charity.
Trojon | 11:40 a.m. Aug. 10, 2009
Ultra Bob
Changes can start with you. How about a little less time spent on reading and commenting and a little more time spent serving down at the local charity of you choice. Actions always speak louder then words.
Changes can start with you. How about a little less time spent on reading and commenting and a little more time spent serving down at the local charity of you choice. Actions always speak louder then words.
AGREED | 12:23 p.m. Aug. 10, 2009
The Developmental Center in American Fork is ready and willing to place clients
in the community. I'm sure all of you who support the notion that
government should stay out of our lives will be happy to let the state place one
of these clients in your home.
Mike Richards | 12:52 p.m. Aug. 10, 2009
@ 12:23,
Tell me about the people that the 'state' is willing to place in a home? Are they all without parents? Are they all without siblings? Are they all without aunts and uncles, nephews and nieces? Are they alone and lonely in a world where their only hope is the state?
Very few people living on this earth are without family. If your family hates each other to the point that they reject their own, then your have a problem that no amount of government can solve.
If you have a parent or any immediate family member in a state run home because you're just too busy to be bothered, then you don't deserve that family member. In fact, when a child turns his parent over to the care of a stranger, I ALMOST rethink abortion. How could anyone care so little about his own flesh and blood that he would turn away the people who gave him life?
Sharing my dad with a sister for the last three years of his life was the most wonderful 'challenge' that I've ever experienced. Yes he needed constant care but he taught me unconditional love.
Tell me about the people that the 'state' is willing to place in a home? Are they all without parents? Are they all without siblings? Are they all without aunts and uncles, nephews and nieces? Are they alone and lonely in a world where their only hope is the state?
Very few people living on this earth are without family. If your family hates each other to the point that they reject their own, then your have a problem that no amount of government can solve.
If you have a parent or any immediate family member in a state run home because you're just too busy to be bothered, then you don't deserve that family member. In fact, when a child turns his parent over to the care of a stranger, I ALMOST rethink abortion. How could anyone care so little about his own flesh and blood that he would turn away the people who gave him life?
Sharing my dad with a sister for the last three years of his life was the most wonderful 'challenge' that I've ever experienced. Yes he needed constant care but he taught me unconditional love.
Business first | 1:24 p.m. Aug. 10, 2009
The Utah legislature is very generous when it comes to corporate welfare and
their own perks. For heavens sakes, let's give a few crumbs to the
disabled.
Anonymous | 1:24 p.m. Aug. 10, 2009
Lets fix the schools first. Stop allowing doctors to keep people alive that are
vegetables our health care is in a bad enough state. We waste to much money on
these people that just live on us tax payers. Look at the education/daycare.
We pick them up at home in buses have a 2 or 3 student to teacher ratio and they
will never do anything for us while our kids that will pay for them in taxes
their whole life have 30 students to 1 teacher and walk to school. Now they are
upset with cuts so was I when I got laid off. so was I when I got my property
tax notice of 40% increase.
Invisible Hand | 1:44 p.m. Aug. 10, 2009
@Mike Richards: I agree that ideally families, not government, should take care
of each other. That goes for unemployment, disability, medical care and old age.
Government should have no role in any of this.
Here's the problem: there has been a breakdown in the family structures in our society to the point that this ideal solution is impossible.
Here's the question: Which came first, the government taking over family responsibilities, or the breakdown of the family?
Here's the problem: there has been a breakdown in the family structures in our society to the point that this ideal solution is impossible.
Here's the question: Which came first, the government taking over family responsibilities, or the breakdown of the family?
blessed are the poor? | 3:42 p.m. Aug. 10, 2009
The poor must NOT be blessed.
Otherwise, why would they be poor?
Otherwise, why would they be poor?
An Observer | 6:33 p.m. Aug. 10, 2009
The question is NOT about helping the poor,
but HOW.
Do we the people help each other, by choice, by charity,
or do use we use FORCE of government, (and the government MUST TAKE from somewhere or someone else first)?
but HOW.
Do we the people help each other, by choice, by charity,
or do use we use FORCE of government, (and the government MUST TAKE from somewhere or someone else first)?
Mike Richards | 7:19 p.m. Aug. 10, 2009
@1:44,
Does it matter that some families "break down"? How do you fix that? Do you assign a social worker to take the children away? Do you brand the mother and the father on the forehead with a capital "L"? Do you assume that a stranger would even start to care about the children? Or, do you set the best example possible and expand your circle of friends so that those who are struggling have a chance to get some free hands-on training?
Here is one way. You love the people enough to help them learn the value of a family. You love the people enough to feed them - yourself - if they're hungry. You love the people enough to get them a job - if they're too poor to handle the necessities of life. You love the people enough to help them over their failures. You help them build a family one day at a time.
That's not a job for a bureaucrat. That's a job for you and for me.
Does it matter that some families "break down"? How do you fix that? Do you assign a social worker to take the children away? Do you brand the mother and the father on the forehead with a capital "L"? Do you assume that a stranger would even start to care about the children? Or, do you set the best example possible and expand your circle of friends so that those who are struggling have a chance to get some free hands-on training?
Here is one way. You love the people enough to help them learn the value of a family. You love the people enough to feed them - yourself - if they're hungry. You love the people enough to get them a job - if they're too poor to handle the necessities of life. You love the people enough to help them over their failures. You help them build a family one day at a time.
That's not a job for a bureaucrat. That's a job for you and for me.
Westg323 | 9:42 p.m. Aug. 10, 2009
A essential part of being truly charitable is the humility and understanding
that we ourselves might easy be in the same situation as the person to whom we
are giving. Hard work and self-reliance are important principles but who are we
to say what misfortune has befallen another? Do they benefit from the same tools
and knowledge for success as we do? In the end do we hold out a hand to one who
is down or do we callously mete out an undiscerning, unending tough love?
Invisible Hand | 10:01 p.m. Aug. 10, 2009
@Mike Richards 7:19: Well said Mike. I agree 100%.
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I vote against these legislators, but they keep being voted back in year after year. And I have lost respect for their religion, since they clearly don't live it.