Deseret News | Family is unhappy with hazing outcome

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Family is unhappy with hazing outcome

What can you say? | 3:31 p.m. Aug. 5, 2009

Tragic.

Looks like the young man drank the alcohol though and it appears he may have used a fake id to procure alcohol in the past not to mention abusing weed.

At the end of the day he chose to drink too much and it was his own other illegal activities that prevented a successful prosecution.

Unfortunate to say the least.

Funny how liberals always say "he should be able to do whatever (fill in the he, she) wants as long does not affect others."

Well this seems to be one of those cases but in the end this type of activity affected more than himself.

THEeyepatch | 4:59 p.m. Aug. 5, 2009

It just one of those lose lose situations. Nobody will come out the winner in cases like this.

CacheMan | 5:11 p.m. Aug. 5, 2009

You will have a hard time ever finding justice in 1st District Court (Logan). Hopefully when the Prosecutor comes up for election, there will be some changes. What we have now is not good.

Comments continue below

Ken Gpddard | 5:52 p.m. Aug. 5, 2009

Have the family of the deceased ever heard of personal responsibility even at that age. There should have been no prosecution.

Sad | 6:08 a.m. Aug. 6, 2009

If my kid had been abusing harmful and illegal substances beginning in high school and continuining into college, I think I would be a little less likely to blame someone else for his or her untimely, tragic death. Some kids just make really bad choices and don't really understand the consequences sometimes. I feel so bad for this family as I have had kids make the same bad choices but have been more fortunate or lucky not to have ended up like this boy. I think the family, if they are looking for some kind of validation that this tragedy opened some eyes about the dangers of underage binge drinking, would want to know that it opened some eyes of many kids participating in this type of activity, and will make them think twice. Isn't that the lesson that is best learned? The deed didn't go unpunished. Kids went to jail and frat houses have been shut down.

N eil | 6:15 a.m. Aug. 6, 2009

Regarding no prosecution, please tell me you are joking. Right. If that had been your son or daughter you would be singing a far different tune.

Missouri Kid | 6:29 a.m. Aug. 6, 2009

Nothing good has ever come from using alcohol. Perhaps that is the message that the court is trying to drill home to those who "continue to play with fire."
Alcohol usage will always lead to defeat and disappointment.
This episode of drinking can be used as an example and would suggest that something else be used for frat initiation.

dan | 7:01 a.m. Aug. 6, 2009

come on neil !!!!!! a university student should
take blame for his drugs and drinking this was his
own doing no prosection was need!!!!!!! he was raised thinking he could do ant thing he wanted

Michael Starks is Dead | 7:10 a.m. Aug. 6, 2009

Read the facts again! Michael Starks had NOTHING to do with the alcohol purchase as well as the extensive drinking that caused his death. .. .and the prosecution doesn't want to prosecute????

You could be next! | 7:14 a.m. Aug. 6, 2009

The next hazing death could be related to you! Would you take the side of the prosecution choosing NOT to prosecute your child's killers?
It is sad the consequences were not severe enough to prevent this in the future!

I Don't Get It | 7:21 a.m. Aug. 6, 2009

You have a young man with a history of alcohol and drug use. Now this family is blaming others because their son made a decision to do what he had done in the past and overdid it. It is a tragedy. To blame others will not change the fact that this young man made a decision to kill himself.

What can you do? | 7:31 a.m. Aug. 6, 2009

This story is truly messed up. Do we blame the kids, the school, the parent, society? I think all are to blame. Obviously the parents didn't teach any of the kids right from wrong cause look at what all of them have become and chose to do with their life......(all meant sarcastically)...... Why is it we have to point the blame at everybody but the truly guilty parties? Noone wants to man up and take real resposibility because they are afraid of the consequences to their actions. That is what is wrong intodays society. If my kids grow up to be low lifes I will still love them but if and when they have to answer for their actions it will be all on them. I will still love them unconditionally but how will they grow as people or set an example of good moral upbringing if they don't accept responsibility? It's still a sad story none the les and no one should have to go through something like that. But apparently thats what happens in real life.

Icon | 7:43 a.m. Aug. 6, 2009

18 year-old "kids" have the opportunity to vote. They are 2 years past the time they are given the opportunity to drive. This is all about choices. If the kid didn't want the alcohol, he could have said NO. He had chosen to drink prior to this episode. He was a pot head. Sounds like he chose his "poison" and died. The parents should be pointing their fingers at themselves. I feel sorry for the situation, but human beings need to take some responsibility for their actions. The blame game just puts more money in Sigfried and Jensen's slimey pockets.

Blame the victim | 8:52 a.m. Aug. 6, 2009

"One aspect that "muddied the waters" in the case was the evidence that Michael Starks had a past history of using a fake ID to buy alcohol and marijuana abuse, Baird said."

Baird has a nice future defending rapist. "Blame the victim" is a time tested defense.

Just because one person is to blame, doesn't mean others aren't, doesn't mean ALL aren't. I think it is tragic the court didn't send a tougher message.

Of course it is our court system and it does tend to suck nowadays.

Solymnar | 8:59 a.m. Aug. 6, 2009

No...the next hazing death probably would not be related to me. My family has close enough relations with their own children and talk with them about potentially harmful things.

If however someone is aware of the danger and chooses to play russian roulette...who's fault is it? The person who said "lets play that game"? The person who had the loaded gun? The person that handed the loaded gun to your child and said "now its your turn"? Or the person that put the gun to their own head and pulled the trigger?

While no one ever wants to take personal responcibility for tragedy its the most obvious place to start. Not, "what did everyone else do wrong that caused this person to do this" but "what did I do wrong, what did that person do wrong".

No one wants to hear that and no one wants to tell the parents that because they are already suffering as it is. Hazing, like rock climbing or driving a 3000+lb verhical is not the issue. Hazing, driving, or rock climbing without thought of consequense or saftey...is an issue.

Solymnar | 9:04 a.m. Aug. 6, 2009

Side note, I had a cousin that I cared about a fair deal. He had a very rough life that turned him suicidal as he got older. Eventually he was successful. That was rough, but it wasn't any specific person's fault as tempting as it was to blame x or y individual.

The workings of the world filter some people towards bad setups, sometimes quick, sometimes slowly. Trying to find something/someone specific to blame out of the plethora of people and events that lead to a particular outcome isn't always useful or valid.

Norm Eagar | 9:07 a.m. Aug. 6, 2009

What happened to the adult that supplied the vodka to the minors. There is the real villian.

@ What can you say? | 9:15 a.m. Aug. 6, 2009

"Funny how liberals always say "he should be able to do whatever (fill in the he, she) wants as long does not affect others."

Well this seems to be one of those cases but in the end this type of activity affected more than himself."

Well, then, it really ISN'T one of those cases, is it?

However, speaking of who argues this point of view, perhaps you should read Williams column from yesterday. He argues that harm is going to occur anyway and a free society shouldn't put restrictions on things because of that.

(And just for the record, "do whatever you want" usually does not include breaking the law because laws are intended to prevent victimization. The question liberals ask here is, should it be illegal for a person who is old enough to give their life for their country to drink?)

Answers | 9:58 a.m. Aug. 6, 2009

To What can You Do? Your comment about "liberals" was offensive and bigotted. It was a cheap slap.
To What can You Says? "Obviously the parents didn't teach any of the kids right from wrong" Obviously you either didn't have kids or you were very lucky. Children don't always learn or practice what they are taught. Don't any of you ever just swallow you self-righteous comments?

alan | 10:10 a.m. Aug. 6, 2009

Then we wonder why the colleges want to allow drinking at 18 it relieves them of any liability, whether it is on or off campus with sorority, and fraternities. These are revenue as Mom and Dad foot the bills, for the most part. A parent of five grown children myself, once they are out on their own you can not control what they do. My children were taught of the ills of drinking and other ills. as their mother and I never did it, they had the right example set for them, but chose other wise for some not all. I served in the military, worked in a factory around a lot of people that drunk and where drunk/or stoned and had no interest in any of it. And I thank the good Lord and my convictions for my strength.
The children have their agency and must take responsibility for their own actions, and those that supply for minors should be held responsible for any ill results.

Utahn | 10:14 a.m. Aug. 6, 2009

Just what charges would they have liked to have seen? I am confused? Some kids get together and drink and one of them dies. The only reason this is being called "hazing" is because a fraternity and sorority were involved and it plays better in the media and allows criminal charges. There was no hazing. There was no one forcing him to drink the vodka, he did it voluntarily. This was a tragic accident.

TheOwl | 10:21 a.m. Aug. 6, 2009

The entire case was white washed. Those supplying the alcohol and the fraternity promoting under age drinking (hazing) have culpability. Letting them off is another way of saying is all OK. Human life is pretty cheap in Cache Valley.

Tradgedy but ... | 11:08 a.m. Aug. 6, 2009

Did the guy who died, not know that drinking was illegal for him? Why didn't he just say no?

The girl who gave him the alcohol is hardly older than he was, if at all.

People should not want to get into the greek system so much that whey are willing to do illegal activities, or submit to hazing.

Its a tragedy, but the family bears some responsibility too, for not teaching either to not drink alcohol, or if it is their tradition to drink it, to drink responsibily.

My point is, why should this girls life be ruined over this?

Just Say No! | 11:13 a.m. Aug. 6, 2009

Why didnt the kid just say NO!

re Utahn | 10:14 a.m. Aug. 6, 2 | 11:14 a.m. Aug. 6, 2009

I had the same sentiment, but you said it better than I was about to,

Several underage kids get together to drink, they all did wrong, they all broke the law, but one of them dies, why should the others lives be ruined because of this?

This should be a lesson to all, do not allow yourself to be talked into doing stupid things in order to be popular. If you do, you put yourself at risk of bad consequences.

I feel sorry for the family, but they bear responsibility in this too. Either they didn't warn their son properly how to handel alcohol, or if they did, then their son didn't listen, either way, they should not desire that this young girl pay for the what happened, unless she tied him down and forced it into his throat.

John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt | 11:28 a.m. Aug. 6, 2009

Everything in moderation. If people are making you drink that much, they aren't your friends. The enablers also needed harsher sentences to discourage this type of group behavior.

Legal Eagle | 11:40 a.m. Aug. 6, 2009

Yeah blame the liberals, I guess only liberals drink alcohol, NOT. Anyway people familiar with the state court system should know that criminal prosecutions in Logan are among the most punitive in the entire state. If their prosecutor didn't file the charges he must have had good reason. No prosecutor worth anything can base a case solely on the desires of the victims. This case is a tragedy for the victim and his family but ultimately it was Mr. Starks that made the ill fated decisions that led to his own demise.

Al | 11:42 a.m. Aug. 6, 2009

While I don't like to agree with Tony Baird, I have to. It is a tragedy that this young man lost his life, but the blame cannot be shifted soley upon the defendants. It is obvious that this young man had previous experience with alcohol and knew the effects. What happened to the days of taking responsibility for your actions? And now we will see lawsuits filed against the defendants, USU and the fraternities to no end. What has our society come to?

Anonymous | 12:18 p.m. Aug. 6, 2009

Hazing should be banned, outlawed. I went through it in high school (Springville), and while I was successful, it was not worth it. We criticized a classmate who refused to go through it, and I realized quickly that he was right. Alcohol is only a tool, the underlying practice is wrong and barbaric.

Anonymous | 1:11 p.m. Aug. 6, 2009

If this state didn't treat underage drinking like it was worse than genocide, this would not have been an issue. Of the half dozen or so people who had alcohol poisoning when I want to Georgetown, not one of them died. The reason? We just took them to the hospital immediatly and that was the end of it. We didn't need to worry about prosecution for doing the right thing. The people with Starks obviously decided they would be in trouble for doing the right thing so went against their better judgement.

Fredd | 1:39 p.m. Aug. 6, 2009

Prior stories said the young man took the bottle and chugged voluntarily. Way more then anyone tried to get him to do as part of the hazing. It was a tragic accident. If only the young man had gotten sick immediately his life might have been saved. I told my kids to be careful drinking. They didn't always listen. Terrible accident.

To TheOwl | 2:56 p.m. Aug. 6, 2009

Hazing is not the same as underage drinking. Hazing is the subjection of a group's newcomer to ridicule, harassment, or intimidation.

That is so overly broad that I think it would be very dangerous to prosecute anyone for something akin to hazing. Imagine a new employee being hazed because he is "teased" about picking up the first team lunch, or a 3rd grader who is ridiculed for being the "teacher's pet".

In this case, the young man had a history of doing the exact same things alleged to be involved in the hazing - which means no sane juror would find anyone guilty.

Unfortunate | 3:06 p.m. Aug. 6, 2009

The death of this student is tragic, but was it hazing. When I was in high school in the 1970's, in St. George by the way. Seniors would grab kids in the hall and stuff their heads in the toilet and flush it. This was totally unvoluntary by the younger students of course. There were also any nunber of things similar that happened to the younger kids, including myself that was really unpleasant. Initiation into a club is totally voluntary by the individual. This young man really wanted to be a part of this fraternaity, but the alcohol poisoning was voluntary on his part. He could have just walked away. That's the sad part of this whole story.

SP | 3:13 p.m. Aug. 6, 2009

The prosecution did as well as they could under the circumstances.

(1) The deceased kid willingly drank the alcohol that caused his death.
(2) The deceased kid had a history of drug and alcohol use.

No jury would convict the other frat boys/sorority girls under those circumstances.

agree with gerogetown | 3:15 p.m. Aug. 6, 2009

Maybe we should file suit against the state for scaring underage drinkers from taking poisoned kids the hospital. No suits necessary. Just change protocol, and lives like mr. starkes will be saved.

This is a horrible situation but were blame is to go everywhere, but in my opinion, most falls on the mr. starkes. He chose to drink more then he could handle and it ended in tragedy. But his poor choice should not ruin the lives of others. I believe the the courts actions were the correct ones. You cant go around blaming other people for tragic events. Should soiders sue our Government for getting shot in War? No way, they knew the dangers and still went. Mr. starkes had boozed it up before and he knew the dangers and he took a risk.

I am a father | 4:29 p.m. Aug. 6, 2009

of an 18 year old with similiar issues. Its tragic to see a family member willfully chose not to follow what you have taught him, but by 18 he is legally and lawfully an adult. Let him have adult consequences for his behavior.

Former Frat Member | 5:06 p.m. Aug. 6, 2009

When all is said and done, the primary reason kids want to join a Frat or Sorority is for the partying...

Yeah, yeah, we'll hear about the token philanthropy, brotherhood, blah, blah....

But I've been there, done that...

The best thing a University can do is ban all Frats and Sororities...

CB | 5:26 p.m. Aug. 6, 2009

Have to agree that those who make choices are responsible for those choices. He could have walked away from it all, but chose not too. Hopefully all have learned a lesson from this. Sad that a life full of promise was ended by some very stupid behavior.

Where's the Focus? | 6:23 p.m. Aug. 6, 2009

Because so few people understand Greek Life, hardly anyone realizes this wasn't an initiation ceremony at all. There are many traditional jokes, games, and scenarios that happen within fraternities and sororities that have nothing to do with their initiations. The events leading up to Starks death were just that. By the time his drinking happened, the "prank" was done and this was nothing more than a house party among friends. When he finished drinking he wasn't given a pin and told welcome to the family. That's not how it works. It's sad that the Greek involvement has made the focus of his death hazing when it should have been responsible drinking. How many know that another USU student, legally of age, drank himself to death in April? What is the community doing to educate people on responsible drinking? It reminds me of the Sex ed dilemma. You can teach abstinence as much as you like, but when you've got a school full of pregnant teens and diseases it's time to rethink your approach. After two deaths because of over-consumption, maybe "drinking is bad" isn't working out too well for us...

John Pack Lambert | 7:23 p.m. Aug. 17, 2009

The 1:11 commentator wants us to stop enforcing the laws.
The fact of the matter is in schools like Michigan State University people die at least yearly from alcohol poisining. It never makes the news like this case, in large part because it is so common, people around here do not even pause to think, especially when Detroit has an average of four people shot a day.

CorrectingFactErrors | 11:01 a.m. Aug. 30, 2009

This was hazing during a pledging period NOT an initiation ritual. There is a big difference. I really wish the news media would stop confusing the terms.

An initiation ritual is a beautiful pre-scripted ceremony in which a pledge is welcomed into the brotherhood. During this ceremony, the fraternity's symbols are explained and secrets are revealed. There is NO ALCOHOL EVER in an initiation ritual. These rituals are handed down through many generations and performed exactly as their founders performed them.

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