Deseret News | Herbert says education 'top priority' for economy

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Herbert says education 'top priority' for economy

beauty-school dropout | 6:13 p.m. July 16, 2009

Maybe you should set the example, Herbie, and go back to school yourself. Unbelievable that our next governor doesn't even have a degree.

Anonymous | 6:30 p.m. July 16, 2009

The real problem with the education in our state is that no one goes to school and no one does anything about it. Ride Trax or go to Gateway on a school day and you see more kids than adults.

FYI | 8:40 p.m. July 16, 2009

Once again all rhetoric.

Step up and take care of teachers!!

Until they start cleaning house at the top of the education system where people stay for 35-40 years and draw six figure salaries teachers will continue to work for pennies.

Comments continue below

Simmer Down | 9:32 p.m. July 16, 2009

The truth is - it's not rhetoric. Just because a guy says he supports education doesn't mean he's not genuine. All of Governor Herbert's kids graduated from public schools and he and Huntsman have put more money into public education than any other administration in the history of Utah.

He puts his money where his mouth is - so, by pure definition, it can't be "rhetoric" when he speaks of his support for education.

Tab L. Uno | 11:13 p.m. July 16, 2009

Usually, a politician's priority is those policy issues that he spends time on. Since this is one of Gov. Herbert's first public annoucements on policy, hopefully it truly represents his value system and belief system. As a skeptic, Gov. Herbert's initial public statements are a hopeful sign because the unique connection between education and economic development in today's global markets cannot be more true.

Wait & See | 6:29 a.m. July 17, 2009

The proof is in the pudding. Time will tell if Governor Herbert means what he says. When Utah starts spending as much of the state budget on education as we did even a couple decades ago and expends at least as much per child as Arkansas or Mississippi, then we will know education is becoming a priority.

FYI has a good point, when will the URS or the legislature put an end to the 40 - 45 year career educators, locked in their positions of power, earning top dollar for doing the same old thing? That gravy train needs to stop and unload passengers.

The Problem, the solution | 6:36 a.m. July 17, 2009

Hurrah for Herbert.

Raise standards, and raise pay for teachers, especially math and science. Make it easier for retired engineers and scientists to become teachers. Streamline the process, and we will get a body of near top notch teachers in these fields.

Math education is hollowed out, it’s not what it should be anymore. The education community has dropped the ball, and when these things are pointed out to them, instead of wanting to improve they defensively deny that a problem even exists.

We now teach subjects at earlier ages, but we teach them in a more shallow way.

We are fooling ourselves.

Specifically what can be done?

Restore a thorough studying of arithmetic in elementary, this helps to prepare the mind for higher math. Let’s begin Singapore math in addition.

Lets restore the option of proof based geometry, where there are challenging problems, not just the dumb easy problems that there are now.

Let’s restore the practice of students doing most proofs of the formulas and theorems that they learn, in trigonometry and algebra. Lets restore algebra so that students become able word problem solvers.

Let’s teach math well, teaching early is not a substitute.

Anonymous | 7:08 a.m. July 17, 2009

Yes, let's see if he bucks the conservative crowd and follows through on boosting education.

Dark Knight | 7:22 a.m. July 17, 2009

Here are my three suggestions for the new Governor:

--To raise more money, reinstitute some or all of the sales tax on food. Is a relatively painless way to bring in more money for education.

--Don't forget the kids who may not thrive in the traditional classroom setting. They are USU, UVU, BYU-bound. Let's strengthen and expand the pathways and programs that lead to vocational skills. Let's even term them 'college' pathways.

Watch his feet | 7:31 a.m. July 17, 2009

Conservatives absolutely hate public education. They hate the fact that they can't pray in schools, that evolution is taught, and that they can't use public dollars to fund religious education. Let's see if he'll defy his conservative colleagues on the Hill and put his money where his mouth is. Watch his feet, not his mouth!

Herbert is right, but shallow | 7:54 a.m. July 17, 2009

Herbert is right, but his reasoning is shallow.

He supports education because it is the pathway to riches.

There are those who see education as an end in itself, who support riches because it allows for people to become educated.

Re: Problem | 8:11 a.m. July 17, 2009

Lots of rhetoric...

Math is not "hollowed out" nor is it "shallow."

The math state core has been overhauled. It is more difficult than it was in years past.

Nice jump on the bandwagon of Singapore math. Catchy phrase but I doubt you even know of what you speak. One problem with that concept is the culture difference. When our culture begins to place more emphasis on being in the classroom and less emphasis on "school choice" and not holding students/parents accountable for the many reasons for absenteeism, we might see change. When our culture quits complaining about the amount of homework given to students and quits demanding that "weekends are for family time, not homework," we might get somewhere.

How many more credits? | 8:18 a.m. July 17, 2009

High school students in Iron County and Washington County must have 28 credits to receive a diploma from their local high schools. That is 7 credits per year...and there are only 8 classes offered on a full schedule. Not much room to add. Take into account that many opt for "released time" and there is no room for failure.

Many seniors, who are on track for graduation, desire to take less than a full load during their senior year for various reasons. That will have to stop--Iron County requires that seniors take a full load. That must be the model that will come.

State School Board problem | 8:24 a.m. July 17, 2009

Herbert should first visit the State School Board. They approved giving full diplomas to those students who pursue a GED (General Educational Development) and pass the five tests. A full diploma just like those who actually earn the full 26-28 credits by attending all four years.

Students who pursue GED exams are usually those who have not been attending nor have passed their courses and have fallen behind.

Every student with a 2.5 GPA or better after their junior year could likely pass all five batteries of the GED. Our State School Board basically encourages students to drop out early by taking the GED so that they can "move on and contribute" to our society. That's all we need--an increased amount of low achievers.

GED is not equal to Diploma | 8:36 a.m. July 17, 2009

The GED was developed to aid our returning veterans, who had served our country in times of war, and help place them into college as had schooling interrupted.

The test consists of questions in five subject areas: social studies, language arts/writing, language arts/reading, science, and mathematics.

If a student passes those five area tests with at least a score of 410 on each test AND an average of 450 on all five tests, they pass the GED.

The State School Board decided to follow the example of other states and grant full diplomas for those who can pass the GED. Talk about lowering the bar!

Gov. Herbert: Fire the entire State School Board and change that policy.

How refreshing | 8:43 a.m. July 17, 2009

To hear our Governor talk about all of us having to sacrifice together in these tough economic times. Rather than blow sunshine to the educators yesterday, he was honest and pragmatic.

How refreshing!

Re the Problem/Solution: | 8:57 a.m. July 17, 2009

Having a retired engineer or scientist won't solve anything. They may be brilliant in their profession, but can they teach? My math teacher in high school was a retired engineer who was undoubtedly a genius, but the students ate him alive. He had no patience for kids and their questions. As a result, he was eaten alive by the students.

Singapore math is not going to do the wonders you think it will. First of all, this is not Singapore. The two educational systems are very different. Singapore, like most Asian countries, puts an emphasis on education--requiring students to attend school for over 220+ days per year. Also, like most countries, they have examinations around the 8th grade year to weed out the non-academic bound students. In America we make an attempt to educate everyone through the 12th grade which means having a mix of serious and non-serious students in classrooms. Thirdly, Singapore has put so much emphasis on math and science that they are leading the world, but they have a problem with their citizens being creative and inventive. They are good at the application but not the creation of things.

Anonymous | 9:09 a.m. July 17, 2009

Getting rid of public education as it exists is a smart thing to do Gov. He is right, it is the parents responsibilty to teach their kids, not the governments.

Cut taxes, cut public ed. It is a Republican thing to do. I am just glad he comes out and says it is a parents responsibilty. No one remembers that anymore.

Making money | 9:14 a.m. July 17, 2009

Singapore math is just more snake oil. The cultural differences and attitudes towards education between the U.S. and Singapore are miles apart. Americans are notoriously famous for failing to get to the root of the problem because it is not politically viable to chastise your voters for creating a culture that devalues education in favor of entertainment. We are a lazy, entertainment-driven culture and Singapore Math is going to do nothing to fix that. In fact I'm willing to bet that the peddlers (lobbyists) of Singapore Math are going to make some big money when it comes to the state purchasing all of their textbooks and teaching materials. Maybe I'm in the wrong profession. Perhaps I should bash some aspect of education to the point where I get legislative support, write a program to fix the problem, sell it state-wide, and collect the money. Who cares if it works or not, as long as I make money and take my share of education funding. I could even build some charter schools and rent out the buildings to make even more money. Wow, there is money to be made in education.

Please get a clue, for our sake | 9:30 a.m. July 17, 2009

Re: Problem | 8:11 a.m. July 17, 2009
Lots of rhetoric...

Math is not "hollowed out" nor is it "shallow."

The math state core has been overhauled. It is more difficult than it was in years past.
_________________________________

Yes the math core has been overhauled, in response to the hollowing out I referred to.

It goes only part way towards fixing the problem though.

There were two types of people on the committee to fix the Utah Math Core, I know, because I testified before this committee, and I spoke with its members.

There were the math educators and the mathematicians. The mathematicians wanted more substance in the core, they wanted a total fix of the hollowing out and dumbing down, the math educators fought this, claiming there was no problem. Some of them in fact claimed there was no reason to even revise the core in the first place.

I do know what I am talking about and if you are an educator, you are what I am talking about, you deny that a problem even exists.

Its time you and yours become part of the solution instead of remaining part of the problem.

Oh Please | 9:32 a.m. July 17, 2009

Talk is cheap, and so is Utah. How many of you would encourage your kids to become teachers so they can starve for the rest of their lives? So Herbert the Realtor better put up or shut up.

our democratic system | 10:07 a.m. July 17, 2009

In our American Democratic system we educate all the kids. Other countries don't. They track kids who don't test well into low skill trades.

Educating all the kids gives us vertical mobility. Educating the kids who test well reinforces a class system of lateral stability.

Not only do we teach all the kids, but we take time to also teach them poetry, dance and music. France, Germany and the other countries who have supposedly superior systems don't. Their kids test higher on math and science, but they don't do as well as our thoroughly educated American kids.

We are the most successful country in the history of the world. Publicly educated scientists invented television, stereo sound, integrated circuit and explored the solar system. Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water.

re 8:57 a.m. July 17, 2009 | 10:24 a.m. July 17, 2009

"Thirdly, Singapore has put so much emphasis on math and science that they are leading the world, but they have a problem with their citizens being creative and inventive. They are good at the application but not the creation of things".

You speak of Singapore not being inventive, but unless we get a handle on our math education, we ourselves will have problems being inventive and doing the great things we have done in the past.

The great accomplishments that America has done in the past were not by scientists and engineers who had the math education that students are getting today.

Unless we want to see a decrease in our scientific and engineering, we need to return to the basics and problems that challenge.

Real world problems are challenging and they require creativity, the mathematics of today is not preparing students for these challenges. Our scientists and engineers will be less able unless we improve and restore what has been lost.

I asked my sons physics teacher why he just handed students formulas and didn't derive them or have students derive them. He said he couldn't because todays students are mathematically prepared to do it.

Improvement not excuses | 10:39 a.m. July 17, 2009

to: our democratic system | 10:07 a.m. July 17, 2009

We are the most successful country in the history of the world. Publicly educated scientists invented television, stereo sound, integrated circuit and explored the solar system. Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water.

^^^^^^^^^^^

People here are claiming that math education has declined in recent years. If this is so, then the Publically educated scientists and engineers who invented great things in the past obviously had a better math education than kids today.

Why do you invoke the job that math educators did years ago to defend the job you are doing now?

Instead why don't you listen to the charges being brought against you and improve?

Subservient Nation | 11:19 a.m. July 17, 2009

Last year Singapore sent a team of government officials to observe American schools. They were trying to discover the magic of the American school system. Singapore is envious of the fact that American students are inventive and creative. America still leads the world on patents while Singapore is languishing. The secret was liberal arts. While Singapore students do math and science all day long, American students get healthy doses of a liberal arts education, leading to greater creativity and imagination. Singapore has been great at producing highly skilled mathematicians, but have the creativity of the automatons they have become. I am not saying that we shouldn't make attempts to improve mathematics education, but to do it at the expense of other aspects of education will make America a subservient nation as Singapore and others have become.

re Subservient Nation | 11:19 | 11:53 a.m. July 17, 2009

I am with you that liberal arts are important, no argument on that. Music, history, leadership, social studies, etc are all of great importance.

Singapore will do well to learn from Americans when it comes to a well rounded education in all these areas. (I am assuming from your post they are deficient).

The fact remains though that since the early 1980's American math education has declined significantly. While since the late 1990's Singaapore has greatly improved the state of the art when it comes to educating young people in learning math.

I have looked at their entire math program, I have several sets of their books from grade 1 through 12.

Their elementary math education is better than what Utah has ever done in its history, yet it is a little weak on arithmetic skills, which by the way are important. Where Singapore math shines is in problem solving and requiring students to think and be creative.

In grades 7 through 12, their math is not as good as what I got in Utah public education pre 1980. Our Geometry was much better back then than what Singapore offers now. Other than that is is comparible.

To Watch his feet: | 12:32 p.m. July 17, 2009

Conservatives don't hate public education, they just hate the product as indicated by low test scores, teachers doing it with students, gangs in schools, etc.

Unfortunately, people continue to fail to understand that more money won't solve these problems. Until parents and kids understand that they are responsible for their own education, problems will continue as kids are more interested in computer games, i-pods, and hanging out at the Gateway instead of getting an education. Ultimately, these kids don't give a rip becuase they know that big daddy government will simply take care of them when they don't have an education, don't have a job, and end up with kids of their own.

re Watch feet: 12:32 p.m. July 1 | 1:53 p.m. July 17, 2009

"Ultimately, these kids don't give a rip becuase they know that big daddy government will simply take care of them when they don't have an education"

When I was young, going to school I wanted an educaton for education sake, I really wasn't thinking then about earning a living.

Judging from what my kids bring home, I don't think the education being offered to the kids now is as good as we had it back then.

Back then kids who wanted to were allowed to take a lot of easy classes and avoid hard classes. Now all kids have to take more of the core classes.

To accomitate those who aren't really interested in learning, we have made more core classes manditory, and it is probably the kids that don't want to learn, being in these classes that has helped to dilute them.

Heck Yes | 2:20 p.m. July 17, 2009

Well heck, why don't we just stop teaching all together and start saving money!

We could get a note from little Johnny's parents indicating that little Johnny has completed his homework. Test scores could be emailed from the parents too.

I bet some kids could end up on the Honor Role every once in a while too.

In no time at all Utah will have the "bestly edukated" kids in the whole world.

Children not Systems | 4:23 p.m. July 17, 2009

Gary Herbert will be a breath of fresh air. All of you miss the point and your RHETORIC is ridiculous. All these posts are about protecting systems and teachers. Education is about the children. Thankfully, Herbert realizes that and will put their interests first. Utah has finally turned a corner and is recognizing that unions destroy public education. They sacrifice children to protect their own interests.

FYI | 5:56 p.m. July 17, 2009

RE: Simmer Down | 9:32 p.m. July 16, 2009

Simmer down???

Talk is cheap and teachers have heard this every since the days of good old Norm.

When someone finally steps up and gives teachers their due and gets then caught up with national wages then i will "Simmer".

Until then, I simply am not buying the rhetoric!!!

Proud Mary | 6:04 p.m. July 17, 2009

Children not Systems | 4:23 p.m. July 17, 2009

So it's wrong for teachers to want a better way of life for themselves and their families by asking for chicken feed!!

Did you see what Milsap was offered for working hard? Do you understand why doctors perform more surgeries or why lawyers take more cases?

THEY GET PAID MORE FOR THEIR EFFORT!!

Teachers do not!!

Some people posting here need to get a clue!!

cut costs!!! | 10:35 a.m. July 18, 2009

i have two kids enrolled at SLCC and are "required" to take worthless general ed classes which are often a repeat of something they took in high school! and do it to the tune of over $400.00 plus $100.00 books! how about making 'junior college' a little more affordable gov!?! their part time jobs don't come near covering the costs for a semester of classes that have nothing to do with what they intend to major in!

Fred | 5:43 p.m. July 18, 2009

As a public school teacher, who doesn't teach math, I always find these discussions about curriculum very entertaining. There are many good people, such as the mathematician who has posted here that mean well but fail to understand the educational problems we face today. We can change the curriculum to whatever you want, it won't matter. It's not about curriculum, its about parents and students attitude toward education. Education is not important to the majority of parents and students anymore. A's on the report card are, but education isn't. I would love to teach one quarter without a call from a counselor or administrator during the last week of the quarter wanting to know if there is anything little Johnny can do to bring his grade up. I wish I didn't have to listen to sob stories from parents about why it is their fault little Johnny hasn't done anything all quarter. These also occur during the last week of the quarter. Until we allow kids to fail, hold them accountable for what they don't do, it doesn't matter what curriculum you choose to teach.

Re: Fred | 10:13 p.m. July 18, 2009

Thank you. I also dislike that schools and councelors will allow a student to transfer out or in to a class half way through a quarter because that student is failing. They don't check why the student is failing or his/her attendance record. If a student doesn't like a teacher, they make up an excuse and they transfer out. That has been my experience.

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