Deseret News | Socialism needed

Reader comments
Readers' forum: Socialism needed

132 comments | Read story

Page:
1
2
3
Next >

Grimble | 12:06 a.m. July 16, 2009

Yep. That's the Republican way: privatize the profits, socialize the risk.

Stalwart Sentinel | 12:10 a.m. July 16, 2009

One word for the letter-writer:

Huh?

Hypocrisy | 12:11 a.m. July 16, 2009

Great letter. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Comments continue below

Stalwart Sentinel | 12:18 a.m. July 16, 2009

And a few words more:

So it's come to this, has it? Did you seriously just refer to corporations as a form of socialism? Did you even bother looking up the definition of socialism before you just got printed in a newspaper on the suject?

Here, let me help you. Socialism is the state running all capital and business. And what is "the state", or "gov't"? As I've said many times before, gov't is one thing and one thing only: force.

And to blame Reaganomics on our society's materialism was just asinine. If anything, our society's insistence on protecting our materialism with new gov't programs shows mankind's foolish dependence on socialism.

The invisible hand has been completely forgotten. Many never even give it a chance, when its principles are the answer to literally every societal ill we have. Our desire for services of ANY kind will be fulfilled in a free market. When we don't have the choice to spend our money--which actually represents our livelihood--we no longer have the ability to choose what our priorities are. In socialism, the gov't makes all those choices for us.

Huh? | 12:37 a.m. July 16, 2009

So 'corporate socialism' is bad, but government socialism is good?

Socialism is a dead end street | 12:42 a.m. July 16, 2009

First of all let me say, I can't believe it has gotten to a serious debate in the United States that socialism is needed. That being said, capitalism if it is allowed to work, would take care of distribution of scarce resources and innovation. Like it our not, when you impose socialistic policies you create shortages because you artificially push the demand curve higher becuase everyone has access to a scarce resource. This is why socialized medicine in Europe has several month waits for services we take for granted in the United States. Secondly, you remove any incentive for the private individual to improve the system. There is no more, build a better mousetrap because no one cares. No one will beat a path to your door because you will make nothing from your effort.

But I do agree, we have been in a mixed economy for some time and it is what created the mess we a currently in. Pure capatalism, if allowed to work takes care of dead companies like GM and punishes those that take risks like Bear Sterns.
Government is always the problem, Power is lent to the government by the people.

JMT | 12:42 a.m. July 16, 2009

This letter highlights the problem. The mess we are in is confusing and the solution will not be easy.

Since he is approaching this from the left, and I'm on the right let me use the word he won't. Excessive corporate control is the classic definition of facism.

The options we are faced with is socialism (when Marx penned it 150+ years ago it was called communism) on the left hand or facism on the right hand.

A list of things that should be socialized? Do you mean to say they aren't already? Every example you list that should be socialized is in fact already socialized.

Take education. We have been fighting to de-socialize that for decades now. We are getting closer but fact remains, it is already socialized: From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs.

Same goes for health, roads, etc. America is a socialist nation. The issue is now what form of socialism. Obama would turn us into a hard-left, marxist state. Bush gave us a corporate socialist state. Is there another way? What about cutting government out of the loop? Is it possible?

A mess!

LDSDEM | 12:46 a.m. July 16, 2009

The 'Mixed Economy' idea is the only solution for the country. I am a disabled person who has been on Social-Security and Medicare/Medicaid for years. These programs are not perfect, but they are pretty darn good! The quality of the care has been fantastic, they cover all my medicines etc. The Government has done a bang-up job over the years in many areas - the postal service, military, public libraries, public television, etc...

We also need government regulation. When I worked, I became ill and had to use fmla (a program many in the GOP did not support) without it, I would of lost my job. All the cries of "oh no.. Socialismmmm" make me ill, and show how much the right-wing is out of gas.

I want a mixed economy and a more liberal Government and happy we are getting it!

I am a LDS Democrat and Obama supporter and get tired of all the 'gloom and doom' politics of the right that many of my fellow members believe in--

May God Bless and Guide America!!

Proud to be a LDS Democrat!

Corporate Socialism? | 12:46 a.m. July 16, 2009

You are dreaming! No such thing exists unless you include Obama's "bailout"! If you want to get even with those "evil" corporations, teach them a lesson. Don't buy anything made by a corporation! That's right, fight "corporate socialism"! That means you cannot buy any medicine (all invented and made by corporations). No electricty! All produced by "evil" corporations. You have to grow our own food but no fair using tools, they too are made by "evil" corporations. No clothing either unless you make it yourself. No car, no funiture no house. Good luck enjoying your cave and gathering your own food. Corporations generate most of the wealth in the world, employ most of the people, pay most of the taxes and are responsible for almost every invention. Bottomline, your letter is beyond niave, it is just foolish! Enjoy your life in a cave with a spear trying to stay warm and fed! Me, I will be enjoying my life's comforts, all brought to be by "evil" corporations!

Anonymous | 12:49 a.m. July 16, 2009

Well, comrade, I hate to break it to you, but communism has never worked well no matter where it's been tried. If you think government takeover of health care, banking, etc., is the answer, please take a look at the bottom line of a few government run companies like the Post Office and Amtrak. Socialism strangles freedom. It rewards laziness and failure and punishes hard work, success and innovation. Nothing has proven to work as well as a free marketplace. Government bureaucrats like Barack Obama who’ve never run a company or met a payroll should be the last people to trust with market decisions.

Rubbish!! | 12:51 a.m. July 16, 2009

This letter is pure garbage. Evil corporations crushing the poor little people. Only the "controllers benefit." What rubbish!! The free market system has brought everyone, including the writer, the highest standard of living the world has ever known. Moreover, anyone can get ahead in America with hard work, at least the America that didn't use to punish success and reward failure and indolence. People like this writer want to sit back and let everyone else work to provide for them. It's pure nonsense.

mark | 2:20 a.m. July 16, 2009

Corporate Socialism? | 12:46 a.m. July 16, 2009 you bleat:

"Bottomline, your letter is beyond niave, it is just foolish!"

You say that about someone else's ideas?! Someone else's! After that post of yours? Oh, that is too funny!

mark | 2:32 a.m. July 16, 2009

Rubbish!! | 12:51 a.m. July 16, 2009 you bleat:
"The free market system has brought everyone, including the writer, the highest standard of living the world has ever known."

This is a list from the HDI, a widely accepted analysis of standard of living. As you can see the US does not have the highest standard of living. Number ten is still not bad though. Although still below all those "socialist" nations.
1 Norway
2 Iceland
3 Australia
4 Luxembourg
5 Canada
6 Sweden
7 Switzerland
8 Ireland
9 Belgium
10 United States

John C. | 3:28 a.m. July 16, 2009

So we have become so lazy as a people that we are willing to give up our constitution and the freedom it brings. The freedom the rest of the world has envied since our nations conception. Now we who have it are willing to just hand it over to the government and forsake the freedoms our forefathers have died for. Shame on us for being so lazy!

Astro | 5:28 a.m. July 16, 2009

Free marked built USA, but is now weakening the nation. Communism built the USSR, but also broke it. Political ideas are theoretical models of societies, but none of them will ever work on its own. This may be hard for a people who is used to regard politics the same way it regards religion. You cannot drive a car by taking only right or only left turns. Neither can a society be adminisered with only one principle, you need to pick and choose the principles that will work during the actual circumstances - some degrees of free market, some degrees of control, etc.

KEY SENTENCE OF THE LETTER | 5:46 a.m. July 16, 2009

"Don't you realize that what we've been living under for the past 30 years has been corporate socialism?"

The answer that about 90% of Utahns would give is a resounding "HUH???"

Galt | 5:56 a.m. July 16, 2009

There's no sense fighting it any longer. The Socialists are in charge and this is what the majority in America wanted. The Altruists are going to get what they want. At the end of this four years the Democrats are going to own whatever happens to the country as a result of their policies.

What really amazes me is that both party's believe they can enact these insane government programs without paying for them. What amazes me even more is the public supports these programs without demanding they be paid for. Some day soon the piper is going to show up for his pay. Too much debt got us into this mess and taking on more isn't going to fix it, it will make things worse. Since nobody in the majority seems to be concerned about that I say let'er rip. Let's party like it's 1984 and we'll worry about the hangover when it comes. I think I'm going to start voting for Democrats again because they really like to party, and I sure wouldn't want to be a Republican in charge when the bill comes due.

Steve | 7:28 a.m. July 16, 2009

No corporate socialism? Business loans backed by federal funds,tax incentives to bring a business to an area, roads/sewers built to manufactoring plants,owners of land forced out to build plants,and the list goes on and on. Is it socialism or corporate welfare?
There should always be a mixture of social/economic philosphies-just as there should be in a government.One sided rule always brings greed/tyranny to power.Too many people have phobias about socialism due to confusing it with(former) Communist countries like the USSR/China/Cuba,etc.
Some corporations in America have become too greedy and allowed men to run them who will do anything to get a buck. They run companies into the ground by extremely poor decision making.
We need to elect representatives who will truly represent the citizens of this republic instead of a few high paying lobbists. We need to have a system where our representatives do not use the system for financial gain or as a career. It's repulsive when a hypocritcal person runs on the premise that the elected official has been in office too long/that they are beholden to special interests and then do it.

Anonymous | 7:30 a.m. July 16, 2009

@ mark,

The funny thing is, the whole reason America is not number one on your beloved list is because we have abandoned the free market so long ago. It is because of government instrusions that keep us from the top of the list. I wonder how that list would have looked if we were to make it 50, 100, 200 years ago. Everybody seems to forget that the instant America adopted the Constitution, complete with the ideas of free market, all the problems at that time, namely internal fighting, etc., were solved.

Please tell me, all you pro-socialist's, If corporate America is so evil, why did Obama bail them out? Under a free market, these "evil" corporations would have failed, and a better corporation would have risen upon its ashes. Oh, but that would not allow all you lazy, cheapskates to hold your hands out for the government handouts that are sure to come due to the "bailouts." If you doubt me, just read LDSDEMS comments.

The free market, left alone will do more good than ANY GOVERNMENT could ever hope to do! That is why America HAD done so well in the past!

Stupid letter | 7:33 a.m. July 16, 2009

Let me guess, the person(s) that wrote this trash is nothing more than a liability to the tax payers!!!

Mike Richards | 7:48 a.m. July 16, 2009

Let's leave the "gray" world and enter a "binary" world where everything is clearly defined as either right or wrong, good or evil, just or unjust, where there are no shades of gray.

Next, let's formulate a goal - feeding someone who CAN'T feed himself.

Finally, let's look at the options on how to reach that goal.

In a binary world, the people either decide to help or they rely on force to make them help. Either way, the person is fed.

The real question is, "Can you force someone to be good?" Socialism would try to force us to be good for the good of all. It is force. It is a lack of personal choice. It is relying on someone else to make our decisions for us. It is giving someone else control of our personal ambition, our goals, our progess.

The world is not binary, but every decision can be made with binary logic.

What is the solution for feeding the man? It is for each of us to CHOOSE to help. Good people will help without being forced to help. Socialism allows people to slip into indifference.

Personally... | 8:01 a.m. July 16, 2009

I think the government should stop supporting businesses and let them fail or stand on their own - and I am not just talking about the recent bailouts and such. I am talking about the corporate welfare that has been going on for years.

If an individual is working and is still making so little money that they need government support, the government should hire an independent auditor to examine the books of the company for whom the welfare recipient is working. That company should than be assessed a portion of the government's cost for supporting that employee - up to and including full reimbursement. Not only would company profits be taken into consideration, but the differences between what the employees are making and what management makes.

There is no reason taxpayers should pay employee salaries while management is living high on the hog.

Just we need | 8:03 a.m. July 16, 2009

A socialists president. See, Obama is a socialists. Liberals love this, but still deny it.

Its about Balance | 8:13 a.m. July 16, 2009

Socialism alone is not the answer. Russia has proved that.

Capitalism alone is not the answer, America and others have proved that regulation IS needed.

Also if there were no socialism, only those children with parents that could afford it would get an educaion.

People who constantly say socialism is evil, just parrot what they hear without thinking through the matter.

If America got rid of all its socialism, we would soon fall, and our wealth would decline.

Had the Soviet Union adopted only the best of socialism along with the best of capitilism, they would still be around and be a well to do country.

Its all about balance and choosing wisely from the best of all philosophies.

Anonymous | 8:15 a.m. July 16, 2009

I love Grimble's comments, "That's the Republican way: privatize the profits, socialize the risk." How true, summed up so succinctly. There is no one definition of "socialism", and a broad-sweep condemnation of it is childish and intellectually dishonest. People think they have all the answers about and the impact of socialism, but they most certainly don't - they speak based on antiquated, Cold War propaganda based rhetoric. It is time to stop the immaturity and think differently. After all, the United Order is a clearly a form of socialism.

Dave | 8:23 a.m. July 16, 2009

When choosing between Corporations or Government, remember Corporations cannot fine or imprison you, Government can. Look at the proposed Healthcare plan. If you do not have insurance the Gov. will fine you (enforced by the IRS). No Ins. company can do that to you.

RE: Mike Richards | 8:23 a.m. July 16, 2009

Do you think that left to our own devices there would be enough so called "good" people in this world to do what you are suggesting? Or would all the good deeds be heaped upon the few who actually have the time and ambition to solve the worlds problems?
Binary logic is faulty at best, because as you said, there are many shades of gray.

Question | 8:35 a.m. July 16, 2009

So what are you socialists going to do when the producers get tired of carrying you?

What are you going to do after you no longer have the rich to steal from?

Honest Luke | 8:39 a.m. July 16, 2009

Freedom lost is hard to regain. I see no reason to throw it all away.

party | 8:45 a.m. July 16, 2009

"Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die." Tomorrow is comming soon! The fools in charge are not paying attention to the laws of unintended consequenses. Or are they?

Ultra Bob | 8:53 a.m. July 16, 2009

Conservative have destroyed the meaning of words like Socialism, Liberal, Free Market and so many more of our everyday words.

Socialism is simply people working together for the common good. It doesn’t mean force, rationing, loss of liberty and freedom or all those other evil and mean things that Conservatives assign to it.

Capitalism is good when operated for the good of all the people it serves. It is bad when it operates without rules in a totally Free Market. In this case it is simply a jungle.

The reason that Conservatives have done this is that they want MORE. Actually all of us want more, the problem is that some of us will play by the rules of society/government and some of us insist on being able to act independently without rules.

The truth is that people working together have synergy that produces more than the sum of individuals. When individuals get their MORE it is at the expense of others who get LESS.

America is all about everybody getting SOME. Not necessarily equal, but sufficient to promote Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Ultra Bob | 9:10 a.m. July 16, 2009

I don’t know exactly what Corporate Socialism is, but I assume it is something bad.

There are many organizations, corporations, groups, churches, clubs, and whatever, that govern our lives. Some have a degree of being voluntary and some have a degree of force. But all have some regulation and limitation of our life, liberty and freedom.

It’s all because we live in a civilized group and not on some desert island alone by our selves.

The main difference in the makeup and operation of these groups and that other group we call “government” is that we think we have more say in the government because we get to vote on those leaders. We seldom get to vote on the leaders of the other groups.

If a giant organization is going to control my life, I hope it is the one that I get to vote on.

Hypocrisy | 9:14 a.m. July 16, 2009

To say that Corporate Socialism doesn't exist is beyond ignorance....

Enron, car companies, and AIG all come to mind.

Companies that are "too big" to fail. Or companies that if they fail, have a gigantic (negative) influence on our economy, such as the car companies.

We cannot be held hostage to big corporations, their price fixing, bad investments, and failures.

We need to have regulations. We cannot just "allow" the "free market" to work itself out.

Mike Richards | 9:14 a.m. July 16, 2009

@ 8:23,

If there are not enough "good" people to help the helpless, then can people be foreced to do good? That's a paradox. Forcing someone to do that which is against his "nature" is not good. "Might" does not make "Right". Compelling someone to pretend to be good does not work. When people just don't care, that society is in a state of decline that Social pressure can not fix.

The desire to be good and to do good must come from within, not from without. Government is an outside force. It cannot change the attitudes and desires of the people - even though it can force - at gunpoint, if necessary - each of us to do its will, including forcing each of us to assist each other.

If people fail to respond - willingly - to those in the community who NEED help, then society has become morally bankrupt.

Christians all over the world recognise that force is opposite to Christ's teachings. So, where does that leave "force"?

Socialism is "force". We are not invited to participate, we are compelled to participate. That is the crux of the problem.

Bender Rodriguez | 9:18 a.m. July 16, 2009

re: Mike Richards | 7:48 a.m. July 16, 2009

I love the thoughts about Life being binary. It reminds of the quote from the last Stars Wars movie, "Only the Sith deal in absolutes." or as was stated in Clear and Present Danger that, "The world is gray"

Hopefully, I did not offend too many religious types who actually think life is binary.

re: Stalwart Sentinel | 12:18 a.m. July 16, 2009

Blaming Reagonomics for Materialism is ridiculous @ best.

Though, socialism is where the government exerts influence or outright controls a sector of or the whole economy.

Answer | 9:26 a.m. July 16, 2009

The producers are getting tired of carrying the non-producers. Why do you think we are trying to force the rich to give something back to us?

You gotta love it | 9:34 a.m. July 16, 2009

You gotta love when you read real Americans begging for central control, government control of their lives and Socialism. It just makes me scratch my head in disbelief.

Still doing corporate socialism | 9:40 a.m. July 16, 2009

Isn't the Obama administration still pushing corporate socialism??? What were the coroporate bailouts for companies "too big to fail"? Or the stimulus program where the government sprinkled select companies with buckets of government money (money that could have been used to help PEOPLE instead of COMPANIES)?

OPEN YOUR EYES! The Obama administration is doing the exact same thing the Bush administration did. NOTHING HAS CHANGED. Yet Obama supporters keep saying EVERYTHING has changed. Are you looking at reality and whats going on in YOUR job, your life, your neighborhood, or just the political rhetoric and propaganda you get in the nightly news?

Lew Jeppson | 9:44 a.m. July 16, 2009

The natural unit of society is the commune. Isn't that how your family works? Or do you buy and sell within your family? This does not argue against the problems of state socialism, but for the record, the natural unit of society is, throughout all history, the commune.

Oh Please | 9:45 a.m. July 16, 2009

As a wild-eyed Democrat, I have no desire to do away with capitalism. I believe in it. However, I don't believe in taking the referees off the playing field, and that's what BushCheney did to us, leaving us to the mercy not of true capitalists but of a bunch of crooks.

You got it! | 9:47 a.m. July 16, 2009

"Socislism is needed." Fret not, it's coming.

New York is looking at raising taxes to 57%, on the "wealthy."

How's that for socialism. Liberal/fascism in action.

Enjoy.

@Dave | 9:49 a.m. July 16, 2009

You forget that the corporations cannot be held accountable by the people. The government can.

Tyler | 9:51 a.m. July 16, 2009

What a waste of space for an article. And the worst part is there are a few ignorant people that actually agree with him. Look at the past and present. Capitalism has led to better lives for everyone. The United States has been the most prosperous and industrious nation for over 200 years. We have helped the rest of the world because of our way of life. We are the most charitible nation on Earth.

Bear Rug | 9:55 a.m. July 16, 2009

Good Komment Tovarish. Stalin would love to talk to you.

RedShirt | 10:04 a.m. July 16, 2009

To "Ultra Bob | 8:53 a.m. " you almost have the idea of the "Free Market" right. For the free market there must be rules set up and in enforced by government. That is the limit that government should be involved in business. If there are no rules, then, it is anarchy. Anarchy is not good.

The terms "Socialism, Liberal" were destroyed by those that profess it. The Socialism was destroyed around the time of WWII when the various Socialist parties were going around Europe destroying things.

The term "liberal" was destroyed by the hippie movement during the 1960's. They were seen throughout the world as lazy, drug crazed, over sexed bums that went around tearing down anybody that disagreed with them.

You can't blame conservatives for what liberals and socialists have done in the name of their political ideals.

Locke | 10:05 a.m. July 16, 2009

Socialism cannot be justified on Constitutional grounds, which is the only way socialist programs could or should be instituted. Rights not specifically granted to the Federal government resort to the states or the people. "The people" includes the people who own and run business.

The letter writer lives in the wrong country, but thankfully is free to relocate.

ME | 10:10 a.m. July 16, 2009

People solve problems. Not the government. The "commune" is a nice concept. But I don't want the "commune" to be lead by a bunch of corrupt, power hungry politicians. Lets think a bit

oh please | 10:14 a.m. July 16, 2009

Oh plesae!

wallofvoodoo | 10:15 a.m. July 16, 2009

I have a problem with the wealthy taking complete advantage of the educational system & health care system (yes not insuring people is taking advantage of it) & not paying their way. If people actually paid the actual cost for their workers, they would pay a lot more than they do now.

The problem is now that the Robber Baron's don't get their money through didvidends from their companies, they exact overblown salaries from the company & tout how valuable they are to a company that is failing. If they were that valuable, the company wouldn't fail. These individuals are getting a "free" ride. They take advantage of the "socialized" programs the US has offered, then complain when they have to pay the costs.

I say tough, it is about time we stop allowing these people to rape the country unfetterd. Deregulate business & allow them to make profits, but stop the abuse of the executives who caused these probelms in the first place.

Anonymous | 10:16 a.m. July 16, 2009

Anyone that says "free enterprise" is the way to go, then look at how we are now. We do not have free enterprise, but the greed of some of these corporations would be FAR WORSE and we would be in a FAR DIRE situation if we were.

Greed is the reason we are here. Plain and simple. Unfettered capitolism is not the answer.

Page:
1
2
3
Next >

Add your comment

Comments are monitored. Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted.

Words Remaining

E-mail address: For internal use only. We may want to contact you to publish your comment (not your e-mail address) in the newspaper or for a separate story idea.