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In our opinion: A sad day for Utah
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Doggie | 12:06 a.m. July 1, 2009
Typical Desnews Milk Toast.
Consequences | 1:17 a.m. July 1, 2009
The editorial says that E-Verify will pull apart families. Families may be
pulled apart because the adults CHOSE to enter or stay in this country illegally
with full knowledge that they were breaking the law. They certainly do not need
to be separated but can take their children home with them. Again, it is their
CHOICE. Whatever happened to people being taught to be accountable for their
own actions? Breaking laws brings consequences for each of us. It has ever
been so. I cannot understand why some folks think illegal aliens and their
employers aren’t required to be accountable for their actions like the
rest of us.
How many American families are separated when our soldiers go off to war? How many families are separated when sons or daughters (or parents) go on missions? Consider all the criminals in prisons who are separated from their families. None of these can choose to take their children with them. Illegal aliens are free to do so. Their choice to break the law brought them to this point. It is also their choice about whether or not to break up their family. They do have choices.
How many American families are separated when our soldiers go off to war? How many families are separated when sons or daughters (or parents) go on missions? Consider all the criminals in prisons who are separated from their families. None of these can choose to take their children with them. Illegal aliens are free to do so. Their choice to break the law brought them to this point. It is also their choice about whether or not to break up their family. They do have choices.
E-Verify Accurate | 1:20 a.m. July 1, 2009
The editorial says, “The law places extra burdens on business owners,
requiring them to use an E-verify system for which many of them lack training.
Elsewhere, this system has been shown to reject legal residents by
mistake.”
A study in June 2009 by the Program Evaluation Division of the Office of the Legislative Auditor, State of Minnesota found that most participating Minnesota businesses have positive opinions of E-Verify and report that the cost of using the system is not a significant concern. This study also reported that the accuracy of E-Verify has improved and that nationally, 93 percent or more of queries result in immediate verification of work-authorization; less than 1 percent result in erroneous determinations that an employee is not eligible to work.
Did you get that? Less than 1% of queries result in erroneous determinations that an employee is not eligible to work. This is infinitely more accurate than eyeballing fraudulent IDs and pretending not to notice.
I just wish all employers were required to use E-Verify. I think the day will come.
A study in June 2009 by the Program Evaluation Division of the Office of the Legislative Auditor, State of Minnesota found that most participating Minnesota businesses have positive opinions of E-Verify and report that the cost of using the system is not a significant concern. This study also reported that the accuracy of E-Verify has improved and that nationally, 93 percent or more of queries result in immediate verification of work-authorization; less than 1 percent result in erroneous determinations that an employee is not eligible to work.
Did you get that? Less than 1% of queries result in erroneous determinations that an employee is not eligible to work. This is infinitely more accurate than eyeballing fraudulent IDs and pretending not to notice.
I just wish all employers were required to use E-Verify. I think the day will come.
Comments continue below
helen | 5:41 a.m. July 1, 2009
Nearly all Federal crimes including arson, bank fraud, bank robbery, bribery,
carjacking, child pornography, identity theft, identity fraud and many more are
enforced at state, local and federal levels.
So why would these hypocrites in sanctuary areas feel illegal immigration is any different?
Those who come here illegally, steal our IDs and ignore our laws have already demonstrated they lack the honesty and decency to ever become American citizens.
a.) Enforce the existing immigration laws.
b.) Secure the border.
c.) Don't hire illegal aliens.
d.) No anchor babies.
e.) Deportation through attrition.
So why would these hypocrites in sanctuary areas feel illegal immigration is any different?
Those who come here illegally, steal our IDs and ignore our laws have already demonstrated they lack the honesty and decency to ever become American citizens.
a.) Enforce the existing immigration laws.
b.) Secure the border.
c.) Don't hire illegal aliens.
d.) No anchor babies.
e.) Deportation through attrition.
LifeoftheMInd | 5:46 a.m. July 1, 2009
Why do the Democrats work so hard to steal elections and gain control of
legislatures when they advocate ignoring the laws that already exist? The
operative word here is "illegal." As for the issue of Federal and
State jurisdiction, we already settled that question 136 years ago. Over 600,000
Americans, the equivalent of over 6,000,000 now, died to determine that Congress
and the Constitution get to decide who is a citizen, not some local cabal in
Atlanta or Selma or Salt Lake City.
Who Needs Facts... | 5:51 a.m. July 1, 2009
... when its easier and less time consuming to rely on emotion.
The Deseret News should not be surprised when this thoughtful editorial is roundly rejected by the majority of Utahns.
It was only weeks ago that the current Lt. Governor, a man with zero scientific experience or training questioned a Nobel Prize winning scientist on the validity of global warming.
With their reaction to this editorial, Utahns will again illustrate how comfortable they are with a fact-free society.
The Deseret News should not be surprised when this thoughtful editorial is roundly rejected by the majority of Utahns.
It was only weeks ago that the current Lt. Governor, a man with zero scientific experience or training questioned a Nobel Prize winning scientist on the validity of global warming.
With their reaction to this editorial, Utahns will again illustrate how comfortable they are with a fact-free society.
Mike Richards | 5:55 a.m. July 1, 2009
Why would obedience to law cause sadness? Here in Utah, and in many other
places, we were taught while we were still young that every blessing is
predicated upon a law and if we want any blessing we must be willing to live the
law to which that blessing belongs.
America is a good and wonderful place, in part because we have order. That order is sustained by law. Those that obey those laws live freely within an ordered society.
When laws are disregarded, chaos results. When laws are ignored by those who have taken an oath to uphold those laws, even greater chaos results, because then many are given the impression that our laws are meaningless.
The law is not meaningless. Breaking a law has consequences. Families will be hurt. Those families were first hurt when they chose to ignore immigration laws. They were hurt again when our politicians wanted their vote and chose to ignore their illegal activity. Now they will be hurt a third time when the original law is enforced.
Obedience to law brings happiness. Breaking laws brings misery.
Choices have consequences.
America is a good and wonderful place, in part because we have order. That order is sustained by law. Those that obey those laws live freely within an ordered society.
When laws are disregarded, chaos results. When laws are ignored by those who have taken an oath to uphold those laws, even greater chaos results, because then many are given the impression that our laws are meaningless.
The law is not meaningless. Breaking a law has consequences. Families will be hurt. Those families were first hurt when they chose to ignore immigration laws. They were hurt again when our politicians wanted their vote and chose to ignore their illegal activity. Now they will be hurt a third time when the original law is enforced.
Obedience to law brings happiness. Breaking laws brings misery.
Choices have consequences.
Some Things to Consider | 6:28 a.m. July 1, 2009
The argument is made that these people break the law, well who hasn't
broken a law?
The argument is made that these people are criminals, but the law against being undocumented isn't a criminal law, any more than jaywalking.
The argument is made that these people do harm because they send money back home, but if the world wasn't willing to accept the US dollar as an international currency, our overspending would cause great inflation, their sending money home is effectively the opposite of counterfeiting money.
The argument is made that these people commit more crimes, but newly released studies show this isn't true.
In short a lot of arguments are made against these people, but the arguments and the truth are not in harmony.
These people pick our crops, clean our hotel rooms, provide affordable housing to through their high quality and affordable labor, without their contributions, our economy would be less than it is.
If many common people are frustrated that the government doesn't listen to them, it is because officials in government are aware of, and acknowledge something they don't or refuse to, that these people are great contributors to society.
The argument is made that these people are criminals, but the law against being undocumented isn't a criminal law, any more than jaywalking.
The argument is made that these people do harm because they send money back home, but if the world wasn't willing to accept the US dollar as an international currency, our overspending would cause great inflation, their sending money home is effectively the opposite of counterfeiting money.
The argument is made that these people commit more crimes, but newly released studies show this isn't true.
In short a lot of arguments are made against these people, but the arguments and the truth are not in harmony.
These people pick our crops, clean our hotel rooms, provide affordable housing to through their high quality and affordable labor, without their contributions, our economy would be less than it is.
If many common people are frustrated that the government doesn't listen to them, it is because officials in government are aware of, and acknowledge something they don't or refuse to, that these people are great contributors to society.
re Mike Richards | 5:55 a.m. Ju | 6:56 a.m. July 1, 2009
Why would obedience to law cause sadness?
Go take a class in American and world history, and when you are finished come back and comment in this forum.
Slavery, Jim Crow laws, Laws against giving protection to Jews so they couldn't be taken to the ovens.
You come across as someone who is ignorant of any history, as someone who learned as a child to obey all laws, and never got past that simple precept to see that life and the world is more complicated than that.
Go take a class in American and world history, and when you are finished come back and comment in this forum.
Slavery, Jim Crow laws, Laws against giving protection to Jews so they couldn't be taken to the ovens.
You come across as someone who is ignorant of any history, as someone who learned as a child to obey all laws, and never got past that simple precept to see that life and the world is more complicated than that.
WAKE UP!!!!! | 7:21 a.m. July 1, 2009
I get tired of everyone who takes the illegal immigrants side and says,
"They aren't doing anything worse than jaywalking...." What they
won't accept is that these illegal immigrants FAMILIES are bleeding the
medical field dry. They go to hospitals and can't be refused services just
because they are illegal. So THAT cost is passed off to you and I. They
don't pay taxes, so that money is lost and not recovered. Remind me how
that relates to jaywalking or speeding? I sympathize with their story that
they're trying to find a better life for their families but there is a
LEGAL way to do that. My mom came here from Sweden years ago LEGALLY. She
didn't complain that the country didn't speak Swedish to accomodate
her. We now, because of the illegal immigrants, are forced to have Spanish
speaking options for everything and THAT comes at a cost to the legal taxpayers.
It's okay to feel sorry for these illegal immigrants plights, but our
sorrow and pity doesn't need to go any further than that. Become citizens
LEGALLY. That's the law!
Just Wondering | 7:35 a.m. July 1, 2009
People who argue against comprehensive immigration reform, say making the
undocumented pay a fine is amnesty, if they are allowed to stay in the
country.
Well is it amnesty too if when anyone gets a speeding ticket they also get a fine, but are allowed to continue on with their journey and not sent back to where they started?
Well is it amnesty too if when anyone gets a speeding ticket they also get a fine, but are allowed to continue on with their journey and not sent back to where they started?
Lionheart | 7:37 a.m. July 1, 2009
Let's just annex Mexico. It is a fabulously rich country and we are paying
the price for its social problems and foolish system. At least we should send
the Mexican oligarchs a bill.
Tom | 7:51 a.m. July 1, 2009
This is a sad day for Utah. We will see the consequences of our choices over time and see that this law will do more harm than good. I am amazed by people's unwillingness to see things as they really are. The editorial say's "It turns anyone with brown skin into a suspect and is sure to breed racism." The breading of racism has already increased greatly in this state because of people holding to views about this law that do not square with reality.
Disobedience to unjust laws | 7:55 a.m. July 1, 2009
... is moral.
For a refresher course, see "Civil Disobedience" by Henry David Thoreau.
For a refresher course, see "Civil Disobedience" by Henry David Thoreau.
Utah Bob | 7:55 a.m. July 1, 2009
Conservatives will quote you a thousand reasons for allowing illegal immigrants
to come and live in the United States and all of them will be false, phony and
lies. The real truth for allowing the illegal immigration is to provide cheap
labor to business.
When something threatens that goal, it is considered a sad day. A sad day for business.
However a sad day for Utah businesses with regard to the cheap labor market, is a most happy day for Utah workers.
When something threatens that goal, it is considered a sad day. A sad day for business.
However a sad day for Utah businesses with regard to the cheap labor market, is a most happy day for Utah workers.
re WAKE UP!!!!! | 7:21 a.m. Jul | 7:58 a.m. July 1, 2009
I agree let them do it legally, but how are they to do it legally unless
comprehensive immigration reform is passed by the congress?
Paul | 8:00 a.m. July 1, 2009
The only notorious part of SB81 is how notoriously weak a bill it is. The
eVerify provision should apply to all employers in Utah and there should be a
large fine if any employer hires an illegal without using that process. I think
the only compassion we're seeing in this paper is compassion for the
Chamber of Commerce and the employers who may actually have to pay legal wages.
Ultra Bob | 8:10 a.m. July 1, 2009
If we allow foreign workers to come at will, should we also allow foreign
businesses of come at will. Shops, stores, factories, plumbers, banks, etc.
If America is to become (or remain) a fair place to live and have life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, there must be balance in the forces that control our lives. And the biggest forces that control our lives is business.
If America is to become (or remain) a fair place to live and have life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, there must be balance in the forces that control our lives. And the biggest forces that control our lives is business.
SLC gal | 8:13 a.m. July 1, 2009
What they don't realize is the burdens Illegals do place on society far
outweights the burden expecting them to be fairly, and legally in this country
would be.
Tom | 8:14 a.m. July 1, 2009
TO WAKE UP
I work in a west side hospital where a large amount of our clientele are hispanic and I have talked to people in charge about what you say and have found it not to be true. The majority of them do pay taxes and do so legally though They are not eligible for welfare or other entitlements accept a few emergence service and education for their children.
I work in a west side hospital where a large amount of our clientele are hispanic and I have talked to people in charge about what you say and have found it not to be true. The majority of them do pay taxes and do so legally though They are not eligible for welfare or other entitlements accept a few emergence service and education for their children.
Grover | 8:25 a.m. July 1, 2009
"Annex Mexico"! That statement is the first thing I have ever read
from Lionheart that I agree with. Further we need to bring home the troops from
over there and send them south until they reach Panama. Then we would finally
have a border we could defend. Also, I think that all of the new property should
be made part of Utah county so that the commissioners could straighten things
out down there.
Re: Tom @ 8:14 | 8:33 a.m. July 1, 2009
Tom,
I appreciate your response. However, I work in the construction industry and witness first hand how those illegals are paid. Under-the-table paychecks cannot be taxed. How could they possibly do it? Also, for those illegals who say they are paying it, which social security number are they using? We ALL pay taxes when we purchase food or services, however, how can an illegal legally pay taxes? Hopefully someone can educate me on that process because I don't understand how it can work. Also, the truth is that while they may not be ELIGIBLE for welfare, their families can still get food stamps through WIC and other means because we won't let their children go without.
I appreciate your response. However, I work in the construction industry and witness first hand how those illegals are paid. Under-the-table paychecks cannot be taxed. How could they possibly do it? Also, for those illegals who say they are paying it, which social security number are they using? We ALL pay taxes when we purchase food or services, however, how can an illegal legally pay taxes? Hopefully someone can educate me on that process because I don't understand how it can work. Also, the truth is that while they may not be ELIGIBLE for welfare, their families can still get food stamps through WIC and other means because we won't let their children go without.
@Tom | 8:40 a.m. July 1, 2009
Obviously your talking "to people in charge" is definitive.
Have you ever, ever filled out a Medicaid application? It is mentioned several times in the form that legal residency is NOT a requirement for receiving aid from this program.
I don't know where the vaunted Sutherland Institute gets its numbers. After spending the last couple of years working in the county jail as a volunteer, there are a whole heck of a lot more that are there illegally than less than 5%. And talking to them (even though several speak only Spanish... even after living here for many years), most of the work that they have been doing is paid for by cash! That avoids taxes. Tom, are you so naive to believe "people in charge"?
This whole thing is a crock... but the Stupid Bill 81 won't help it.
Have you ever, ever filled out a Medicaid application? It is mentioned several times in the form that legal residency is NOT a requirement for receiving aid from this program.
I don't know where the vaunted Sutherland Institute gets its numbers. After spending the last couple of years working in the county jail as a volunteer, there are a whole heck of a lot more that are there illegally than less than 5%. And talking to them (even though several speak only Spanish... even after living here for many years), most of the work that they have been doing is paid for by cash! That avoids taxes. Tom, are you so naive to believe "people in charge"?
This whole thing is a crock... but the Stupid Bill 81 won't help it.
John C | 9:03 a.m. July 1, 2009
Get a traffic ticket in say..Sandy, fail to follow the rules posted on the
ticket.
Don't show up in court,a bench warrant will be issued for your failure to comply with the LAW.
Get stopped anywhere in S L County, the police run your license, show an outstanding bench warrant and you are arrested and sent to jail until you comply with the LAW.
If you are here illegaly, you are guilty of breaking the LAW, not complicated at all.
Don't show up in court,a bench warrant will be issued for your failure to comply with the LAW.
Get stopped anywhere in S L County, the police run your license, show an outstanding bench warrant and you are arrested and sent to jail until you comply with the LAW.
If you are here illegaly, you are guilty of breaking the LAW, not complicated at all.
BH | 9:25 a.m. July 1, 2009
Great comment John C. I couldn't agree more.
forget Rule of Law?? | 9:29 a.m. July 1, 2009
"Slavery, Jim Crow laws, Laws against giving protection to Jews so they
couldn't be taken to the ovens."
So what are you implying, sir? We should have anarchy, instead? No Rule of Law?? Let them ALL come in?? Or are you implying that legal, orderly immigration in particular is bad law, tantamount to sticking Jews in ovens??
So what are you implying, sir? We should have anarchy, instead? No Rule of Law?? Let them ALL come in?? Or are you implying that legal, orderly immigration in particular is bad law, tantamount to sticking Jews in ovens??
All Knowing | 9:30 a.m. July 1, 2009
This is the most asinine article I've read in a long time.
This is a state law. Officers who refuse to enforce the law need to be arrested, fined, or sent packing.
Anyone who thinks using E-Verify requires a huge amount of training is grasping at proverbial straws. All it takes is a few key strokes on a computer which any third grader could quickly pick up. And the accuracy is somewhere around 99 percent. Discrepancies are resolved in minutes.
There already exists a program to become a US citizen for those who desire it... fill out the paperwork and get in line.
There already exists programs for foreigners to legally come here to work, attend school, etc. The problem is, many become illegal when they refuse to leave when their visa expires. they then become undocumented illegal immigrants.
This is a state law. Officers who refuse to enforce the law need to be arrested, fined, or sent packing.
Anyone who thinks using E-Verify requires a huge amount of training is grasping at proverbial straws. All it takes is a few key strokes on a computer which any third grader could quickly pick up. And the accuracy is somewhere around 99 percent. Discrepancies are resolved in minutes.
There already exists a program to become a US citizen for those who desire it... fill out the paperwork and get in line.
There already exists programs for foreigners to legally come here to work, attend school, etc. The problem is, many become illegal when they refuse to leave when their visa expires. they then become undocumented illegal immigrants.
Sam the Ham | 9:41 a.m. July 1, 2009
@Some Things to Consider 6:28 a.m.: "The argument is made that these
people are criminals, but the law against being undocumented isn't a
criminal law, any more than jaywalking."
What's illegal is being in this country without permission. The jaywalker is fined for his conduct and if he continues to commit the crime he is fined again. Illegal immigrants should likewise be fined each day they violate the law. Fifty bucks a day should suffice for starters.
What's illegal is being in this country without permission. The jaywalker is fined for his conduct and if he continues to commit the crime he is fined again. Illegal immigrants should likewise be fined each day they violate the law. Fifty bucks a day should suffice for starters.
Careful, Your Image Is Showing | 9:42 a.m. July 1, 2009
Although I don't live in Utah, I feel compelled to warn Utahns their image
is taking a severe beating on this issues.
Instead of coming across as an ensign of hope, prosperity and charity for all the world, citizens of Utah are coming across as a uninformed, self centered, and an unsympathetic lot.
Is that the intent?
Instead of coming across as an ensign of hope, prosperity and charity for all the world, citizens of Utah are coming across as a uninformed, self centered, and an unsympathetic lot.
Is that the intent?
Tom | 9:54 a.m. July 1, 2009
I appreciate the civil dialogue. I am sure that many get paid under the table,
but there are good studies that show around 7,000,000 illegal's have been
issued government tax numbers that allow them to pay taxes legally. I am unsure
of the present law. I don't know if they can get those numbers since 9/11
or not. The undocumented individuals I know have them. There is also good
evidence that they pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits. There are
bad in any group, but the truth is that the vast majority of undocumented people
are good hard working individuals. If you would like me to post some leads to
that information could do that.
Dave Swenson | 9:55 a.m. July 1, 2009
Take a look in the mirror. If you don’t see a Native American looking
back at you, it means that you or your forbears emigrated here sometime in the
last 500 years. America’s greatness did not come about because we shut
the door to immigrants since becoming a nation. Our future is not assured by
closing our borders to those who desire economic and political freedom.
Immigration law, currently constituted, criminalizes the great majority of
people who come here hoping for a better life. The act of crossing a national
border is not, in and of itself, immoral. Those who illegally enter our country
are subject to the penalty of law for doing so. Since crossing the border is
not an immoral act, immigration laws should be changed to facilitate a greater
number of those looking to create a better life for themselves and their
families. Law enforcement, in Utah and elsewhere, should concentrate on
behaviors which are both immoral and illegal, such as murder, theft, and
trafficking in human beings. Otherwise, we should turn matters concerning
immigration over to Native Americans, and let them decide who stays and who is
deported.
Illegal is Illegal | 9:57 a.m. July 1, 2009
I am sorry that this may be difficult for some people to face, but these ILLEGAL
immigrants made that chose when they broke the law. Simply by virtue of
entering this country illegally and continuing to ignore the immigration LAWS,
these people are criminals. I don't care if they are "nice". I
would fully expect to be booted out of any foreign country and in some
imprisoned whether I had an "anchor baby" or not. Only in America can
you break the law, and use your child to get out of it. Look at California and
Arizona. These wannabes will soon be flying their Mexican flags and expecting
YOU to bend to meet them. Send 'em back. All of them. No paper, no
passport, no service.
Brittanicus | 10:07 a.m. July 1, 2009
After November 6, 1986 the Immigration Reform and Control Act required employers
to hire only American citizens and permanent residents authorized to work in the
United States. Employers must verify eligibility of any persons hired by
completing an Employment Eligibility Verification form. The business is
required to examine the documentation provided by the individual that
establishes his or her identity and employment eligibility, to ensure that the
documents appear to be genuine and relate to that individual. The employer must
retain the verification form for three years after the person is hired or one
year after the employee leaves the job. In my view all Washington has to do
contribute some additional amendments to this law. As a starter one amendment
would be E-Verify, as a permanent web based application that ensnares illegal
workers? It works remarkably well so now--THE PEOPLE--have an opposition of open
border, free traders and corporate organizations.
Bear Rug | 10:08 a.m. July 1, 2009
Ok, . . . . . then what do we do? Illegal immigration is costing the tax payer
a lot of money. Some of those that come here ARE, in fact, criminals. I
don't care if they come here legally. Those who OBEY the laws of our
country, usually end-up making a contribution to our society. Too many of those
that are here illegally make NO contribution. In fact, they largely take
without ever giving back. That kinda ruins the legacy that our forefathers left
us. My family has served in almost every war since WWI. They have also been
legislators, teachers, and taxpayers. They've given back to the country
that provided so much for them. I think that all of those immigrating to the
U.S. should be encouraged to learn that principle. Those legal immigrants DO!
RedShirt | 10:08 a.m. July 1, 2009
To "Utah Bob | 7:55 a.m." I am a conservative, and I can't think
of any reason to keep illegals here. I actually like that Obama has realized
that the boarder is a problem and has asked for volunteers from the National
Guard to go and help patrol it and keep the illegals out. (Granted he is doing
it under the guise of the Drug wars going on in Mexico)
I do find it ironic that the Minute Men (citizen volunteers) were called racists for doing the very thing that Obama has now proposed.
To "Tom | 8:14 a.m." the Washington Post has an article titled "Illegal Immigrants' Cost to Government Studied" where they reported on a study. "Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.
I do find it ironic that the Minute Men (citizen volunteers) were called racists for doing the very thing that Obama has now proposed.
To "Tom | 8:14 a.m." the Washington Post has an article titled "Illegal Immigrants' Cost to Government Studied" where they reported on a study. "Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.
to sam the ham | 10:10 a.m. July 1, 2009
I believe the problem is much greater than jaywalking. Jaywalking doesn't
cost taxpayers millions of dollars. People who choose to remain in this country
illegally in many cases do not exist. Very often, they do not have insurance, so
if they run into your car, guess what? You pay! They do not pay taxes, as they
do NOT EXIST. They are here taking up space, using OUR services, and in many
cases not paying their fair share. Has your child been educated in a non-english
speaking classroom yet? Been to an ER where entire illegal families are in
there with toys and picnic lunches because this is their doctor's office?
I have, it's a joke. Go spend some quality time in any city where the
illegals have taken over. They need to go back and if they so choose to become
legal they can go through the motions. Impatience in the process is not an
excuse. I would not dream of immigrating to Mexico or Canada without going
through the legal process. Stop singing kumbaya and look at it realistically.
Wrex | 10:14 a.m. July 1, 2009
I liked this editorial. It's nice to agree with the Deseret News once in a
while, even if it is about once every seven years! :)
Brittanicus | 10:17 a.m. July 1, 2009
In border states the occupancy of foreign nationals has become so prevalent,
that I'm surprised to see the United States flag flying above schools,
hospitals, government buildings and prison compounds. At the speed of this
occupation of illegal aliens and their families, California, Texas and Arizona
will have urban sprawl even into the deserts. California--THE SANCTUARY STATE
fell foul to illegal immigration, many the years back and has been suffering
under the Liberal Sacramento assembly pandering to them ever since.
Now they are hurting with a $24.billion dollar budget, that according to City Manager 11 billion can be directly attributed to the the illegal immigrant invasion. For more factual data, not propaganda or naked lies go to NUMBERSUSA JUDICIALWATCH to stop 2nd AMNESTY? STOP FUNDING TO SANCTUARY STATES! NO MORE RAISED TAXES TO PAY ILLEGAL ALIENS & FAMILIES! IMMIGRATION LAWS ARE NOT BROKEN---JUST NOT ENFORCED! CALL YOUR SENATOR OR REPRESENTATIVE NOW.
Now they are hurting with a $24.billion dollar budget, that according to City Manager 11 billion can be directly attributed to the the illegal immigrant invasion. For more factual data, not propaganda or naked lies go to NUMBERSUSA JUDICIALWATCH to stop 2nd AMNESTY? STOP FUNDING TO SANCTUARY STATES! NO MORE RAISED TAXES TO PAY ILLEGAL ALIENS & FAMILIES! IMMIGRATION LAWS ARE NOT BROKEN---JUST NOT ENFORCED! CALL YOUR SENATOR OR REPRESENTATIVE NOW.
to Dave Swenson | 10:20 a.m. July 1, 2009
Oh please. "We" I am assuming you mean the European settlers, we did
not "illegally immigrate" to this new land. We TOOK it. We moved
here in droves and made the Native Americans abide by our rules. We made them
speak our language, walk around our towns, live our way. When they got to be a
problem, because well, they actually had the nerve to fight for their land, we
rounded them up and either slaughtered them or put them on reservations. We took
everything from them and left them nothing. We even took advantage of the
Natives who were our "friends". How did this "illegal
immigration" work out for the Native Americans? I guess that's all
okay though because we were only looking for prosperity and happiness.
C.W. | 10:38 a.m. July 1, 2009
Why don't all the folks who WANT the illegals here simply go down to the
Mexican consulate and offer to "sponsor" an immigrant. That way YOU
will be on the hook for them obtaining a job, finding a place to live, (it
can't be in a single family house with 6 other families) when they need
medical care, YOU'LL be the one to arrange payments. If they need monetary
help (WIC, food stamps, etc)YOU'LL BE THE ONE to make sure that happens,
not all the rest of us! Oh, and YOU'LL be the one to make sure they follow
through on all the paperwork to become citizens and learn English along the way.
If they get arrested they'll call YOU.
If you're willing to take PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for their welfare while they're here on the "path to citizenship" - GO FOR IT! - How about just leaving the rest of us out of it?
If you're willing to take PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for their welfare while they're here on the "path to citizenship" - GO FOR IT! - How about just leaving the rest of us out of it?
Where are the real Utahns? | 10:41 a.m. July 1, 2009
@Some Things to Consider | 6:28 a.m.: I’m with you; You are right!
Darrel | 10:47 a.m. July 1, 2009
@ to Dave Swenson,
I agree with you what you said, I am just trying to figure out what side of the fence you are on...
Are you trying to say that we have no moral leg to stand on in trying to stop this "hispanic invasion" because they are doing the same thing we did? If so, bravo, I agree. Let social natural selection play its role.
If you are saying we have to stop from happening to us what we caused the Native Americans as you describe...whatever happened to the golden rule?
I agree with you what you said, I am just trying to figure out what side of the fence you are on...
Are you trying to say that we have no moral leg to stand on in trying to stop this "hispanic invasion" because they are doing the same thing we did? If so, bravo, I agree. Let social natural selection play its role.
If you are saying we have to stop from happening to us what we caused the Native Americans as you describe...whatever happened to the golden rule?
Obey the law | 10:50 a.m. July 1, 2009
When you break the law you must live with the consequences. If I break the law I
will go to prison, which will break up my family. Illegal immigrants are
breaking US immigration law-they know the risks when they enter the US
illegally.
What law IS compassionate | 11:10 a.m. July 1, 2009
All laws can be seen as harsh and not compassionate. Especially by those who
don't want to obay them.
I'm all for personal compassion, but not those responsible to enforce the law. Since when are laws supposed to be compassionate?
Laws have to be a little restrictive and harsh to have any affect.
I think speeding laws arn't compassionate! Don't they know I only speed I'm late for something? Why such harsh laws?
I'm all for personal compassion, but not those responsible to enforce the law. Since when are laws supposed to be compassionate?
Laws have to be a little restrictive and harsh to have any affect.
I think speeding laws arn't compassionate! Don't they know I only speed I'm late for something? Why such harsh laws?
Flawed logic..... | 11:16 a.m. July 1, 2009
Dave Swenson.....
Your heart is good, but your logic is flawed. You state that illegal immigration is illegal but not immoral. Is is possible to be moral and illegal? The truth is that while some of the illegal immigrants motives may be pure and for the betterment of their family, they cannot morally achieve this while doing it illegally. How can you possibly refute this? If your thinking about it in an "eternally right or wrong" perspective, even the Mormons agree to obey the laws of the land. If you're here illegally how can you morally meet those criteria? Help me understand.
Your heart is good, but your logic is flawed. You state that illegal immigration is illegal but not immoral. Is is possible to be moral and illegal? The truth is that while some of the illegal immigrants motives may be pure and for the betterment of their family, they cannot morally achieve this while doing it illegally. How can you possibly refute this? If your thinking about it in an "eternally right or wrong" perspective, even the Mormons agree to obey the laws of the land. If you're here illegally how can you morally meet those criteria? Help me understand.
black-eye | 11:21 a.m. July 1, 2009
Yet another black mark against the reddest state in America.
Their definition of "obedience" (as Michael Richards puts it) is just in-your-face conformity based on racism and intolerance.
Their definition of "obedience" (as Michael Richards puts it) is just in-your-face conformity based on racism and intolerance.
to darrel | 11:30 a.m. July 1, 2009
re: @dave swenson
Really? You really want to see what happens when we are taken over? Go visit Arizona, California, and Texas. Go visit a reservation while you're at it and get back to us on whether or not this is what you want for your children.
We have a moral obligation to preserve the laws of this country as it stands now. These illegals are coming up here because they visited a reservation and want that?
No, they want the American dream, the one our grandparents worked for. My grandparents immigrated LEGALLY. It was hard, they were poor,the learned english and they were legal. Thank you Grandma and Grandpa for making sure your children and grandchildren could hold their heads up and be proud of who we are. Thank you for making sure we don't have to live in fear of being deported back to a country I have never seen.
Really? You really want to see what happens when we are taken over? Go visit Arizona, California, and Texas. Go visit a reservation while you're at it and get back to us on whether or not this is what you want for your children.
We have a moral obligation to preserve the laws of this country as it stands now. These illegals are coming up here because they visited a reservation and want that?
No, they want the American dream, the one our grandparents worked for. My grandparents immigrated LEGALLY. It was hard, they were poor,the learned english and they were legal. Thank you Grandma and Grandpa for making sure your children and grandchildren could hold their heads up and be proud of who we are. Thank you for making sure we don't have to live in fear of being deported back to a country I have never seen.
Chuck | 11:46 a.m. July 1, 2009
Excellent editorial that took courage. It was right on!
John C | 11:49 a.m. July 1, 2009
Austraila had the same problem with the people from the pacific rim immigrating
illegally.
Solution: All illegals had to register within a certain time frame and apply for citizen ship.
Back ground check required.
Learn english
You have to find a sponsor.
Have a job.
Join the service to the country.
Enrolled in school.
Along with other requirements.
Each person was only allowed their wife and children, no moms, pops, aunts, uncles, distant cousin,etc.
IF you are picked up after the expiration period and are not registered you will be DEPORTED.Regardless of any children, illness, aunts in the basement, no exceptions.
Self screening process, as those that were picked up after the deadline were mostly those foreign authorities were looking for.
We need something similar to make sure that all our legal citizens are protected.
Not perfect but most laws have some flaws.
Austraila has a form of ACLU, but it's a pay to play process, so no free ride like they get here.
Solution: All illegals had to register within a certain time frame and apply for citizen ship.
Back ground check required.
Learn english
You have to find a sponsor.
Have a job.
Join the service to the country.
Enrolled in school.
Along with other requirements.
Each person was only allowed their wife and children, no moms, pops, aunts, uncles, distant cousin,etc.
IF you are picked up after the expiration period and are not registered you will be DEPORTED.Regardless of any children, illness, aunts in the basement, no exceptions.
Self screening process, as those that were picked up after the deadline were mostly those foreign authorities were looking for.
We need something similar to make sure that all our legal citizens are protected.
Not perfect but most laws have some flaws.
Austraila has a form of ACLU, but it's a pay to play process, so no free ride like they get here.
Darrel | 12:01 p.m. July 1, 2009
@flawed logic
Yes you can be moral and illegal! An old example, but it fits, the Compromise of 1850. It admitted California in as a free state, but required all escaped slaves be returned to their owners. Let's say I found an escaped slave, would I be moral to take a stand against slavery and and not return the slave? As stated earlier, civil disobedience.
When Rosa Parks refused to move to the back of the bus...was that immoral?
Your logic assumes all laws are moral. I am in no means advocating law breaking. I too believe in honoring and sustaining the law, but I also believe laws need to be moreal and just.
It was easier for me to get a secret clearance in the military then for my wife to come here legally. There is something wrong with that.
I believe we need to make it easier for immigrants to come over, and that would solve the "illegal" problem.
Yes you can be moral and illegal! An old example, but it fits, the Compromise of 1850. It admitted California in as a free state, but required all escaped slaves be returned to their owners. Let's say I found an escaped slave, would I be moral to take a stand against slavery and and not return the slave? As stated earlier, civil disobedience.
When Rosa Parks refused to move to the back of the bus...was that immoral?
Your logic assumes all laws are moral. I am in no means advocating law breaking. I too believe in honoring and sustaining the law, but I also believe laws need to be moreal and just.
It was easier for me to get a secret clearance in the military then for my wife to come here legally. There is something wrong with that.
I believe we need to make it easier for immigrants to come over, and that would solve the "illegal" problem.
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