SB 81 opens a dangerous door for any overzealous officer to detain anyone based
on their color, fundamentally focusing on an ethnicity, therefore making it
state sponsored racism.What happens to the business that contributes
to the local economy and employs "native" residents, that loses that one big
sink-or-swim job, in this tough economy, because the Latino owner was late for
being held so someone could ensure that his "papers are in order?"
I don't have a problem with the immigrants coming to this country for a better
life. I have a problem when they don't do it legally, use false I.D.'s purchase
vehicles but do not get it registered in their names and don't get insurance. I
had two vehicles destroyed by a drunken illegal who had no license, no
registration, no insurance and after destroying my vehicles and tearing up my
lawn, tried to run away and leave his vehicle in my yard smashed into my
vehicles. We had to pay for the vehicle repairs, we had to pay off the
difference on the car that the insurance we had didn't cover and he got arrested
and then sent back to Mexico only to return several weeks later and pick up
where he left off. I know this because I saw him in the Mall in our neighborhood
less than a month after he was sent packing. They are not law-abiding citizens,
because they are not citizens and they broke the law to get here. Do it right,
obey the laws and I am all for you. Otherwise, stay home.
What a bunch of BS. The DesNews says, "an immigration bill that promises to
harm everyone in the state". I am not an illegal immigrant nor are any of my
family members, nor any of my friends. My children attend a charter school
which focuses on Spainish. All of those teachers are here legally. I don't
think I will be harmed one bit. But my taxes will stop supporting free lunch
for kids who should not be here. Hopefully my medical insurance will go down
because the hospitals don't have to cover so many uninsured illegals. Some gang
violence will decrease if we can get the mexican drug gangs out of Utah. I know
these are many loftly goals, but having know many hispanics over the years and
working with many, I love SB81
One of the most amusing arguments I read in the comments is that deporting
illegal aliens would be detrimental to our society since they perform the jobs
that Americans refuse to do. Seriously? Since when did Americans
become too good for manual labor? Didn't Americans make this country what it is
today by means of manual labor? I'm not too good to clean hotels or wash dishes
if that means feeding my family or not, nor do I think any American with any
sense of worth would think otherwise.Although the current
Administration would have you believe that the average American cannot succeed
on his own, I submit that the real-American spirit is still alive and well with
the silent majority, i.e., those who still believe in hard work and moral
Why is our legislature even wasting time trying to do anything about illegal
immigration. Don't they realize that we're still in the middle of a huge
economic slump with some projections saying we're gonna lose over 15,000 jobs in
the next year. Currently the aggregate migration is actually out of the US,
rather than in, because people are finding jobs easier in Mexico than here in
the US. The state legislature should focus on what's pertinent - stimulating the
economy - rather than addressing an issue that's essentially resolving itself at
the moment. The state legislature is a bunch of uncaring fiscal tight-wads,
using the emotionally charged issue of immigration to distract people as they
launch massive budget cuts on public services - pulling money and jobs out of
the economy and making life even harder for those suffering under difficult
12:07 p.m. July 1, 2009
I'm glad there's some sanity and clear thinking left in this state. I've been
thinking these same things for a long time. SB81 needs to go and we need to get
a real comprehensive plan in place.
What a wonderful day for Utah!
The Deseret News editorial board should be embarassed by its shallow thinking.
This editorial doesn't even begin to address the negative effects on our society
(e.g., including education, healthcare, many forms of welfare transfer payments)
and on our economy (depressing wages for the illegal benefit of both small and
large businesses) that is caused by illegal immigration.The State
legislators, through SB 81, have begun to live by their sworn duty to act on
behalf of the citizens of this state.The DesNews needs to address the
facts regarding the overwhelming negative net detriment to our citizens that
results from illegal immigration -- and not cherry pick the laws that it
believes that should/should not be enforced based on its view of 'compassion'
that it believes should be granted to individuals that flagrantly violate the
Illegal entry into this country is punishable by fines and 6 months in jail.
Lying to obtain work-felony, ss number-felony, it gets worse as more lies
violate more laws.Federal immigration laws have always been enforced
by all law officers, just like Federal drug laws. The ability to cross train
officers existed since 1996.Breaking any law pulls families
apart.People here illegally are afraid to talk. Enforcing the law
will not change that one way or the other.E-verify forms take a few
minutes to fill out, prevent identity theft and abuse of illegals by some Utah
businesses. It protects the citizen and the illegal.Flooding the
work market will cheap labor by more permits harms Americans ability to make a
livable wage. With close to 10% of Americas population out of work this is a
slap in American workers face.Improve the economy by allowing
illegal business. Americans will get goods cheaper and let business know how it
feels to be treated like a commodity to be bought and sold.
Just when you think Utah couldn't get any lower on the evolutionary scale -
something like this manifests itself.
SB-81 was actually passed by the 2008 Utah Legislature. They delayed its
implementation until the 2009 Legislature in order to hold hearings around the
state. They wanted citizen input other than just those lobbying at the capitol.
Hearings were held at the Capitol, Logan, Park City Richfield, and St George.
For those that attended you heard alot of testimony from those opposing illegal
immigration in Utah.On the other hand there were groups in
opposition to SB-81. These were the ethnic groups, Catholic Church, The SL
Chamber of Commerce Rep Stephen Clark, and the Sutherland Institute. When those in opposition to SB-81 found themselves overwhelmed by citizens in
support of SB-81 they were forced to come up with this hair brained scheme. "A
system by which these workers could enter and leave the state legally. We are
astounded that all sides in this debate cannot see the wisdom of a system that
would control and monitor the influx of workers across the border." This was the
reason for the passage of SCR-1 which was pushed by those supporting illegal
immigration as Utah's own "guest worker program," and passed as a sop to
That said, Americans who want this country to go back to enforcing our
immigration laws are not without compassion. I am very surprised our
compassionate Church leaders, Organizations and Legislature did not insist on
helping these people to relocate. This would be the compassionate thing to do.
We cannot put this burden on the citizens of this country. They
should never of had to pay with reduced wages and providing social services and
schools in the first place for non citizens, when our own poor, disabled and
elderly are having their meager benefits cut. Instead those who
benefited should pay, it's only fair. A one time severance pay per worker of
$1,000 should do. This will help them pay for gas and to buy food until they can
find work elsewhere. If you are leaving the state, ask your employer. If he
refuses threaten to tell authorities that he hired people illegally and may also
be guilty of tax fraud. What are they going to do? Deport you? If your leaving
already so what?
Either the DesNews editorial writer either hasn't read SB-81 or has
intentionally misrepresented it. Due to limited space here are three: 1. "The law places extra burdens on business owners, requiring them to use an
E-verify system for which many of them lack training." The truth is, SB-81
applies only to companies contracted on taxpayer projects. Also E-Verify may
take 5 minutes of training for the person in charge of entering the information,
if he/she is of average intelligence, or 10 minutes for those more on the stupid
side. 2. "Elsewhere, this system has been shown to reject legal
residents by mistake." The truth is E-Verify has been proved 99.6 percent
accurate, and those four tenths of one percent that are rejected have 10 days to
correct the information with Social Security. 3. A final
misrepresentation (lie), "The result will be yet another drag on a struggling
economy." Most thinking, and informed people should be able to figure this one
out on their own. Those who base their position on empathy and ethnic issues
rather than logic probably won't see this as false.
It would be so nice if Utah could go away.
Careful, Your Image Is Showing states "Although I don't live in Utah, I feel
compelled to warn Utahns their image is taking a severe beating on this
issues"So?Maybe we should strive for the image of
bankrupt California or extreme left-wing Massachusetts, or vigilante Texas - or
not.With stereotypes: arrogance and condescention from "careful" is
Usually is easy just 2 say what we "think" is "true" about our reality but as
usually we don't know 4 sure the "whole truth" about why illegal people come 2
this country and how they live every day here. In my job I have 2 deal with all
kind of people and I have 2 corroborate the way they live and try 2 dig very
inside of peoples feelings, thinking and reactions. As far as I can understand
and the logic takes me I can only assure that we as Americans have created this
immigration issue as we have failed 2 help 2 create better laws that actually
can work it out the problems in a better way. The state of the Law should always
exists but also we have 2 show compassion 2 those who only crime has been 2 come
here looking 4 a better life. As I said before, we really need 2 know why people
chose to come here and leave everything behind because their country is not the
same as our country in so many ways; probably I would do the same as them just 2
survive, for my family.
@ Utah Bob | 7:55 a.m. July 1, 2009 Huh? Most conservatives are FOR
enforcing immigration laws. @ ALL:How about we just streamline
the immigration process so these people can enter legally. Make it quick and
simple and cheap.
Recent statements in Mexico from both President Obama and Secretary of State
Hillary something needs to be done. "Our inability to prevent weapons from being
illegally smuggled across the border to arm these criminals causes the deaths of
police officers, soldiers, and civilians," she said.But no mention,
concern or care that their refusal to stop the Massive Invasion of Illegal
Aliens pouring across our borders or enforce our immigration laws that causes an
estimated 25 Americans deaths per day and 10,s of thousands victims of Assault,
Robberies, Rapes, Identify thief, and other assorted crimes committed by the
invading horde of Illegal Aliens from Mexico on American citizens each year! It is a telling indictment & shows their Empathy & Compassion of our
Politicians & their priorities when they express more concern over Mexicans
mostly connected to the Drug trade than the murders, havoc & crimes of Illegal
Aliens against American Citizens!
What a WONDERFUL day!! Utahns have been waiting for this law to take effect for
over a year. The time has come and this is only the beginning. S.B. 81 is the
first small step we will take to control our borders. There will be plenty more
To Careful, Your Image Is Showing @9:42 a.m. --The (Utah) ensign of
hope is still there. Utah is a state of laws. And laws are meant to be obeyed.
I think the (Utah) Mormon creed has something to say about that...
"...honoring, obeying, and sustaining the law."
This refusal to abide by our Constitution or enforce our Immigration Laws should
be classified as Treason of the most foul kind, & as grounds for impeachment &
trials for Treason! Not only have they allowed the invasion, they
force American tax payers to pay Billions on Billions of dollars to provide
Welfare, Prison cells, Educate the invaders numerous children, and free medical
care, at the same time the invading horde break numerous laws and massive
document fraud, & are destroying our schools, hospitals, communities, culture
and standard of living while Robbing, Raping, Killing & Assaulting American
Citizens at an rate the terrorist can only dream about.
Our government fails the most basic and primary task & duty of
government, to protect this Nation and its Citizens from invasion and enforce
its laws. They refuse to abide by our Constitution, refuse to
enforce our Immigration Laws and refuse to honor their Oath of Office! Our Government, past & present, Republican & Democrat, have allowed the
invasion of 20 to 30 million criminals and uneducated peons which is the largest
invasion of any Nation, at any time, by any means & in direct violation of
Article IV, Section IV of our Constitution.
There is an order in everything. In what order should mercy be offered? Can
mercy be offered in lieu of obedience to law? Does mercy come before the gavel
is lowered and justice is served? Obedience to law must come before
mercy can be offered and the verdict of justice must wait until mercy has had a
chance to be offered and accepted on terms fair to all.That concept
is well understood. It is taught by Christian churches all over the world. As a State and as a Nation, mercy can be offered to illegal immigrants
after they have done everything possible to comply with the law. Currently the
law requires that they apply for and receive permission before entering our
country. That is the law. To disregard the law and allow all to mock that law
is wrong. To offer mercy to all without requiring compliance to that law is
wrong. Sure, non-compliance allows people to remain here, but it requires no
effort from them for the benefits that they will receive. Something for nothing is never a good policy. Show mercy to those
who first obey the law.
So what you're saying is that Utah and the Mormon church refuses to follow the
12th Article of Faith in this matter? Shame on you!
Why not use the heading "If you want a better life, steal from another". That
about sums up this article. I'm shocked the Mormon church doesn't value honesty
"Out of many, one" - not multiple, mutually exclusive cultures, which is what
most Mexicans want in America, as evidenced by their utter lack of desire to
learn the language and determination to not assimilate.Who says,
with authority, that the Native Indians were the "original owners" of the land?
There was no single organized country, government, or set of laws.
. . . the next time your bank is robbed and you call 911, I'm sure you'll be
happy to be redirected to the FBI, who'll place you on their waiting list for
enforcement. After all, bank robbery is a FEDERAL crime.Or, when
your daughter is kidnapped. Or when someone shoots at you with an automatic
weapon. Or when someone dumps toxic chemicals in your backyard, shoots the
golden eagle perched on your power line, assaults you on the former reservation
in Kanosh, or digs up the antiquities under your house.These are all
violations of FEDERAL laws, making them FEDERAL matters. So, I'm sure you'll
understand when we refer you, as victim, to the federal authorities.Ummmmm, your disingenuousness is showing.
Darrel you stated in your comment at 12:01 "I believe we need to make it easier
for immigrants to come over, and that would solve the "illegal" problem. "You're right, but then without illegal immigrants these whiners would
just move on to yet another issue where they could complain and moan without
ever taking into account facts.I say we let them complain bitterly
about Mexicans taking over the United States. Its just so entertaining.
What a bunch of lies. For example: "It promises to pull apart
families of undocumented workers..." This is a lie. The anchor babies are
perfectly free to accompany their deported parents back to Mexico, where they
may remain together as families. No family need be torn apart."...
seeking a better life and who contribute to the tax base." This is a
double-lie, at least. Sure they contribute to the tax base - being payed in
cash under the table as they typically are. And what about their illegitimate
DRAIN on the tax base?? And don't forget the billions they send down to Mexico
instead of putting into our economy.
It's "milquetoast", not "milk toast", after Caspar Milquetoast, a character in
The Timid Soul, comic strip by H. T. Webster (1885—1952), American
cartoonist.Mike in Sandy
I think you misunderstood me. I am not against LEGAL immigration. I am against
turning a blind and pitiful eye from the millions of illegal immigrants who are
sucking this country dry. I do not believe for one milli-second that ALL of
these illegals actually took the time to legally enter this country. I believe
the vast majority knowingly and intentionally illegally entered this country
knowing full well that all the bleeding hearts would pity them and their anchor
babies and let them stay. The vast majority of these people have NO INTENTION
of becoming legal. Why should they? They have all the benefits of living here
without any of the responsible. They have even discovered that most Americans
will step aside and agree to classrooms full on spanish speaking children with
parents who don't even try to assimilate. Why pay taxes? Why pay for
insurance? The vast majority intend to sit right where they are until we all
cave in and send them their legal status in the mail.
"America is a good and wonderful place, in part because we have order. That
order is sustained by law. Those that obey those laws live freely within an
ordered society."Have you driven the freeways and seen how Utahans
comply to the law? Notice any shortage of Utahans in Wyoming buying fireworks
that they will bring into Utah?Try to find a road sign without
bullet holes in it. We had a Utah lawmaker defy the law near Kanab riding his
ATV in a posted area. Than, there's Blanding.I've never met an
American who didn't break some law. Utahan are so self righteous.
What Rosa Parks did was not illegal. Constitutionally she had that right. On
the other hand, our Constitution protects citizens against illegal immigration.
Simply enforce the law. Allow those who want to immigrate here do it legally,
just like the european side of my family tree did. If we need workers here,
let's get a guest worker bill passed and allow those who are willing to live by
the US Constitution become citizens.
Congratulations Utah!You've just cruised from reddest state in America to
most fascist state in America.Must make you feel proud.And now
follows the law of karma.
Every American should demand that every employer should implement the E-Verify
illegal worker extraction mechanism from the workplace. They should then display
the E-Verify notice, as does the El Pollo Loca franchises. All those businesses
that fail to place this notice, where the public audience cannot see it--Should
be boycotted ans black listed?
@ to darrelI think you misunderstood me. The reservations are the
way they are because of what we have done and are still doing to the Native
Americans. My point was to argue that really we have no moral leg to stand on
due to what we have done the original "owners" of this land. I think it
would be a far better solution to make it easier to come here legally and let
the various cultures intermingle. America has thrived on that concept for
nearly 400 years already, and that is one of the many reasons I am proud to be
@flawed logicYes you can be moral and illegal! An old example, but
it fits, the Compromise of 1850. It admitted California in as a free state, but
required all escaped slaves be returned to their owners. Let's say I found an
escaped slave, would I be moral to take a stand against slavery and and not
return the slave? As stated earlier, civil disobedience. When Rosa
Parks refused to move to the back of the bus...was that immoral? Your logic assumes all laws are moral. I am in no means advocating law
breaking. I too believe in honoring and sustaining the law, but I also believe
laws need to be moreal and just.It was easier for me to get a secret
clearance in the military then for my wife to come here legally. There is
something wrong with that.I believe we need to make it easier for
immigrants to come over, and that would solve the "illegal" problem.
Austraila had the same problem with the people from the pacific rim immigrating
illegally.Solution: All illegals had to register within a certain time
frame and apply for citizen ship.Back ground check required.Learn
englishYou have to find a sponsor.Have a job.Join the service
to the country.Enrolled in school.Along with other requirements.Each person was only allowed their wife and children, no moms, pops, aunts,
uncles, distant cousin,etc.IF you are picked up after the expiration
period and are not registered you will be DEPORTED.Regardless of any children,
illness, aunts in the basement, no exceptions.Self screening process, as
those that were picked up after the deadline were mostly those foreign
authorities were looking for.We need something similar to make sure that
all our legal citizens are protected.Not perfect but most laws have some
flaws.Austraila has a form of ACLU, but it's a pay to play process, so no
free ride like they get here.
Excellent editorial that took courage. It was right on!
re: @dave swensonReally? You really want to see what happens when we are
taken over? Go visit Arizona, California, and Texas. Go visit a reservation
while you're at it and get back to us on whether or not this is what you want
for your children. We have a moral obligation to preserve the laws
of this country as it stands now. These illegals are coming up here because they
visited a reservation and want that? No, they want the American dream,
the one our grandparents worked for. My grandparents immigrated LEGALLY. It was
hard, they were poor,the learned english and they were legal. Thank you Grandma
and Grandpa for making sure your children and grandchildren could hold their
heads up and be proud of who we are. Thank you for making sure we don't have to
live in fear of being deported back to a country I have never seen.
Yet another black mark against the reddest state in America.Their
definition of "obedience" (as Michael Richards puts it) is just in-your-face
conformity based on racism and intolerance.
Dave Swenson.....Your heart is good, but your logic is flawed. You
state that illegal immigration is illegal but not immoral. Is is possible to be
moral and illegal? The truth is that while some of the illegal immigrants
motives may be pure and for the betterment of their family, they cannot morally
achieve this while doing it illegally. How can you possibly refute this? If your
thinking about it in an "eternally right or wrong" perspective, even the Mormons
agree to obey the laws of the land. If you're here illegally how can you morally
meet those criteria? Help me understand.
All laws can be seen as harsh and not compassionate. Especially by those who
don't want to obay them.I'm all for personal compassion, but not
those responsible to enforce the law. Since when are laws supposed to be
compassionate? Laws have to be a little restrictive and harsh to
have any affect.I think speeding laws arn't compassionate! Don't
they know I only speed I'm late for something? Why such harsh laws?
When you break the law you must live with the consequences. If I break the law I
will go to prison, which will break up my family. Illegal immigrants are
breaking US immigration law-they know the risks when they enter the US
@ to Dave Swenson,I agree with you what you said, I am just trying
to figure out what side of the fence you are on...Are you trying to
say that we have no moral leg to stand on in trying to stop this "hispanic
invasion" because they are doing the same thing we did? If so, bravo, I agree.
Let social natural selection play its role.If you are saying we have
to stop from happening to us what we caused the Native Americans as you
describe...whatever happened to the golden rule?
@Some Things to Consider | 6:28 a.m.: I’m with you; You are right!
Why don't all the folks who WANT the illegals here simply go down to the Mexican
consulate and offer to "sponsor" an immigrant. That way YOU will be on the hook
for them obtaining a job, finding a place to live, (it can't be in a single
family house with 6 other families) when they need medical care, YOU'LL be the
one to arrange payments. If they need monetary help (WIC, food stamps,
etc)YOU'LL BE THE ONE to make sure that happens, not all the rest of us! Oh,
and YOU'LL be the one to make sure they follow through on all the paperwork to
become citizens and learn English along the way. If they get arrested they'll
call YOU.If you're willing to take PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for their
welfare while they're here on the "path to citizenship" - GO FOR IT! - How
about just leaving the rest of us out of it?
Oh please. "We" I am assuming you mean the European settlers, we did not
"illegally immigrate" to this new land. We TOOK it. We moved here in droves
and made the Native Americans abide by our rules. We made them speak our
language, walk around our towns, live our way. When they got to be a problem,
because well, they actually had the nerve to fight for their land, we rounded
them up and either slaughtered them or put them on reservations. We took
everything from them and left them nothing. We even took advantage of the
Natives who were our "friends". How did this "illegal immigration" work out for
the Native Americans? I guess that's all okay though because we were only
looking for prosperity and happiness.
In border states the occupancy of foreign nationals has become so prevalent,
that I'm surprised to see the United States flag flying above schools,
hospitals, government buildings and prison compounds. At the speed of this
occupation of illegal aliens and their families, California, Texas and Arizona
will have urban sprawl even into the deserts. California--THE SANCTUARY STATE
fell foul to illegal immigration, many the years back and has been suffering
under the Liberal Sacramento assembly pandering to them ever since. Now they are hurting with a $24.billion dollar budget, that according to City
Manager 11 billion can be directly attributed to the the illegal immigrant
invasion. For more factual data, not propaganda or naked lies go to NUMBERSUSA
JUDICIALWATCH to stop 2nd AMNESTY? STOP FUNDING TO SANCTUARY STATES! NO MORE
RAISED TAXES TO PAY ILLEGAL ALIENS & FAMILIES! IMMIGRATION LAWS ARE NOT
BROKEN---JUST NOT ENFORCED! CALL YOUR SENATOR OR REPRESENTATIVE NOW.
I liked this editorial. It's nice to agree with the Deseret News once in a
while, even if it is about once every seven years! :)
I believe the problem is much greater than jaywalking. Jaywalking doesn't cost
taxpayers millions of dollars. People who choose to remain in this country
illegally in many cases do not exist. Very often, they do not have insurance, so
if they run into your car, guess what? You pay! They do not pay taxes, as they
do NOT EXIST. They are here taking up space, using OUR services, and in many
cases not paying their fair share. Has your child been educated in a non-english
speaking classroom yet? Been to an ER where entire illegal families are in
there with toys and picnic lunches because this is their doctor's office? I
have, it's a joke. Go spend some quality time in any city where the illegals
have taken over. They need to go back and if they so choose to become legal
they can go through the motions. Impatience in the process is not an excuse. I
would not dream of immigrating to Mexico or Canada without going through the
legal process. Stop singing kumbaya and look at it realistically.
To "Utah Bob | 7:55 a.m." I am a conservative, and I can't think of any reason
to keep illegals here. I actually like that Obama has realized that the boarder
is a problem and has asked for volunteers from the National Guard to go and help
patrol it and keep the illegals out. (Granted he is doing it under the guise of
the Drug wars going on in Mexico)I do find it ironic that the Minute
Men (citizen volunteers) were called racists for doing the very thing that Obama
has now proposed.To "Tom | 8:14 a.m." the Washington Post has an
article titled "Illegal Immigrants' Cost to Government Studied" where they
reported on a study. "Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than
$26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16
billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per
illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.
Ok, . . . . . then what do we do? Illegal immigration is costing the tax payer
a lot of money. Some of those that come here ARE, in fact, criminals. I don't
care if they come here legally. Those who OBEY the laws of our country, usually
end-up making a contribution to our society. Too many of those that are here
illegally make NO contribution. In fact, they largely take without ever giving
back. That kinda ruins the legacy that our forefathers left us. My family has
served in almost every war since WWI. They have also been legislators,
teachers, and taxpayers. They've given back to the country that provided so
much for them. I think that all of those immigrating to the U.S. should be
encouraged to learn that principle. Those legal immigrants DO!
After November 6, 1986 the Immigration Reform and Control Act required employers
to hire only American citizens and permanent residents authorized to work in the
United States. Employers must verify eligibility of any persons hired by
completing an Employment Eligibility Verification form. The business is
required to examine the documentation provided by the individual that
establishes his or her identity and employment eligibility, to ensure that the
documents appear to be genuine and relate to that individual. The employer must
retain the verification form for three years after the person is hired or one
year after the employee leaves the job. In my view all Washington has to do
contribute some additional amendments to this law. As a starter one amendment
would be E-Verify, as a permanent web based application that ensnares illegal
workers? It works remarkably well so now--THE PEOPLE--have an opposition of open
border, free traders and corporate organizations.
I am sorry that this may be difficult for some people to face, but these ILLEGAL
immigrants made that chose when they broke the law. Simply by virtue of
entering this country illegally and continuing to ignore the immigration LAWS,
these people are criminals. I don't care if they are "nice". I would fully
expect to be booted out of any foreign country and in some imprisoned whether I
had an "anchor baby" or not. Only in America can you break the law, and use
your child to get out of it. Look at California and Arizona. These wannabes will
soon be flying their Mexican flags and expecting YOU to bend to meet them. Send
'em back. All of them. No paper, no passport, no service.
Take a look in the mirror. If you don’t see a Native American looking
back at you, it means that you or your forbears emigrated here sometime in the
last 500 years. America’s greatness did not come about because we shut
the door to immigrants since becoming a nation. Our future is not assured by
closing our borders to those who desire economic and political freedom.
Immigration law, currently constituted, criminalizes the great majority of
people who come here hoping for a better life. The act of crossing a national
border is not, in and of itself, immoral. Those who illegally enter our country
are subject to the penalty of law for doing so. Since crossing the border is
not an immoral act, immigration laws should be changed to facilitate a greater
number of those looking to create a better life for themselves and their
families. Law enforcement, in Utah and elsewhere, should concentrate on
behaviors which are both immoral and illegal, such as murder, theft, and
trafficking in human beings. Otherwise, we should turn matters concerning
immigration over to Native Americans, and let them decide who stays and who is
I appreciate the civil dialogue. I am sure that many get paid under the table,
but there are good studies that show around 7,000,000 illegal's have been issued
government tax numbers that allow them to pay taxes legally. I am unsure of the
present law. I don't know if they can get those numbers since 9/11 or not. The
undocumented individuals I know have them. There is also good evidence that they
pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits. There are bad in any group, but
the truth is that the vast majority of undocumented people are good hard working
individuals. If you would like me to post some leads to that information could
Although I don't live in Utah, I feel compelled to warn Utahns their image is
taking a severe beating on this issues. Instead of coming across as
an ensign of hope, prosperity and charity for all the world, citizens of Utah
are coming across as a uninformed, self centered, and an unsympathetic lot.Is that the intent?
@Some Things to Consider 6:28 a.m.: "The argument is made that these people are
criminals, but the law against being undocumented isn't a criminal law, any more
than jaywalking."What's illegal is being in this country without
permission. The jaywalker is fined for his conduct and if he continues to
commit the crime he is fined again. Illegal immigrants should likewise be fined
each day they violate the law. Fifty bucks a day should suffice for starters.
This is the most asinine article I've read in a long time.This is a
state law. Officers who refuse to enforce the law need to be arrested, fined,
or sent packing.Anyone who thinks using E-Verify requires a huge
amount of training is grasping at proverbial straws. All it takes is a few key
strokes on a computer which any third grader could quickly pick up. And the
accuracy is somewhere around 99 percent. Discrepancies are resolved in
minutes.There already exists a program to become a US citizen for
those who desire it... fill out the paperwork and get in line.There
already exists programs for foreigners to legally come here to work, attend
school, etc. The problem is, many become illegal when they refuse to leave when
their visa expires. they then become undocumented illegal immigrants.
"Slavery, Jim Crow laws, Laws against giving protection to Jews so they couldn't
be taken to the ovens."So what are you implying, sir? We should
have anarchy, instead? No Rule of Law?? Let them ALL come in?? Or are you
implying that legal, orderly immigration in particular is bad law, tantamount to
sticking Jews in ovens??
Great comment John C. I couldn't agree more.
Get a traffic ticket in say..Sandy, fail to follow the rules posted on the
ticket.Don't show up in court,a bench warrant will be issued for your
failure to comply with the LAW.Get stopped anywhere in S L County, the
police run your license, show an outstanding bench warrant and you are arrested
and sent to jail until you comply with the LAW.If you are here illegaly,
you are guilty of breaking the LAW, not complicated at all.
Obviously your talking "to people in charge" is definitive. Have you
ever, ever filled out a Medicaid application? It is mentioned several times in
the form that legal residency is NOT a requirement for receiving aid from this
program.I don't know where the vaunted Sutherland Institute gets its
numbers. After spending the last couple of years working in the county jail as a
volunteer, there are a whole heck of a lot more that are there illegally than
less than 5%. And talking to them (even though several speak only Spanish...
even after living here for many years), most of the work that they have been
doing is paid for by cash! That avoids taxes. Tom, are you so naive to believe
"people in charge"?This whole thing is a crock... but the Stupid
Bill 81 won't help it.
Tom, I appreciate your response. However, I work in the construction
industry and witness first hand how those illegals are paid. Under-the-table
paychecks cannot be taxed. How could they possibly do it? Also, for those
illegals who say they are paying it, which social security number are they
using? We ALL pay taxes when we purchase food or services, however, how can an
illegal legally pay taxes? Hopefully someone can educate me on that process
because I don't understand how it can work. Also, the truth is that while they
may not be ELIGIBLE for welfare, their families can still get food stamps
through WIC and other means because we won't let their children go without.
"Annex Mexico"! That statement is the first thing I have ever read from
Lionheart that I agree with. Further we need to bring home the troops from over
there and send them south until they reach Panama. Then we would finally have a
border we could defend. Also, I think that all of the new property should be
made part of Utah county so that the commissioners could straighten things out
TO WAKE UPI work in a west side hospital where a large amount of our
clientele are hispanic and I have talked to people in charge about what you say
and have found it not to be true. The majority of them do pay taxes and do so
legally though They are not eligible for welfare or other entitlements accept a
few emergence service and education for their children.
What they don't realize is the burdens Illegals do place on society far
outweights the burden expecting them to be fairly, and legally in this country
If we allow foreign workers to come at will, should we also allow foreign
businesses of come at will. Shops, stores, factories, plumbers, banks, etc.If America is to become (or remain) a fair place to live and have life,
liberty and the pursuit of happiness, there must be balance in the forces that
control our lives. And the biggest forces that control our lives is business.
The only notorious part of SB81 is how notoriously weak a bill it is. The
eVerify provision should apply to all employers in Utah and there should be a
large fine if any employer hires an illegal without using that process. I think
the only compassion we're seeing in this paper is compassion for the Chamber of
Commerce and the employers who may actually have to pay legal wages.
I agree let them do it legally, but how are they to do it legally unless
comprehensive immigration reform is passed by the congress?
Conservatives will quote you a thousand reasons for allowing illegal immigrants
to come and live in the United States and all of them will be false, phony and
lies. The real truth for allowing the illegal immigration is to provide cheap
labor to business.When something threatens that goal, it is
considered a sad day. A sad day for business.However a sad day for
Utah businesses with regard to the cheap labor market, is a most happy day for
... is moral.For a refresher course, see "Civil Disobedience" by
Henry David Thoreau.
This is a sad day for Utah. We will see the consequences of our choices
over time and see that this law will do more harm than good. I am amazed by
people's unwillingness to see things as they really are. The editorial say's "It
turns anyone with brown skin into a suspect and is sure to breed racism." The
breading of racism has already increased greatly in this state because of people
holding to views about this law that do not square with reality.
Let's just annex Mexico. It is a fabulously rich country and we are paying the
price for its social problems and foolish system. At least we should send the
Mexican oligarchs a bill.
People who argue against comprehensive immigration reform, say making the
undocumented pay a fine is amnesty, if they are allowed to stay in the
country.Well is it amnesty too if when anyone gets a speeding ticket
they also get a fine, but are allowed to continue on with their journey and not
sent back to where they started?
I get tired of everyone who takes the illegal immigrants side and says, "They
aren't doing anything worse than jaywalking...." What they won't accept is that
these illegal immigrants FAMILIES are bleeding the medical field dry. They go to
hospitals and can't be refused services just because they are illegal. So THAT
cost is passed off to you and I. They don't pay taxes, so that money is lost and
not recovered. Remind me how that relates to jaywalking or speeding? I
sympathize with their story that they're trying to find a better life for their
families but there is a LEGAL way to do that. My mom came here from Sweden years
ago LEGALLY. She didn't complain that the country didn't speak Swedish to
accomodate her. We now, because of the illegal immigrants, are forced to have
Spanish speaking options for everything and THAT comes at a cost to the legal
taxpayers. It's okay to feel sorry for these illegal immigrants plights, but our
sorrow and pity doesn't need to go any further than that. Become citizens
LEGALLY. That's the law!
Why would obedience to law cause sadness?Go take a class in American
and world history, and when you are finished come back and comment in this
forum.Slavery, Jim Crow laws, Laws against giving protection to Jews
so they couldn't be taken to the ovens.You come across as someone
who is ignorant of any history, as someone who learned as a child to obey all
laws, and never got past that simple precept to see that life and the world is
more complicated than that.
The argument is made that these people break the law, well who hasn't broken a
law?The argument is made that these people are criminals, but the
law against being undocumented isn't a criminal law, any more than
jaywalking.The argument is made that these people do harm because
they send money back home, but if the world wasn't willing to accept the US
dollar as an international currency, our overspending would cause great
inflation, their sending money home is effectively the opposite of
counterfeiting money.The argument is made that these people commit
more crimes, but newly released studies show this isn't true.In
short a lot of arguments are made against these people, but the arguments and
the truth are not in harmony.These people pick our crops, clean our
hotel rooms, provide affordable housing to through their high quality and
affordable labor, without their contributions, our economy would be less than it
is.If many common people are frustrated that the government doesn't
listen to them, it is because officials in government are aware of, and
acknowledge something they don't or refuse to, that these people are great
contributors to society.
Why would obedience to law cause sadness? Here in Utah, and in many other
places, we were taught while we were still young that every blessing is
predicated upon a law and if we want any blessing we must be willing to live the
law to which that blessing belongs.America is a good and wonderful
place, in part because we have order. That order is sustained by law. Those
that obey those laws live freely within an ordered society.When laws
are disregarded, chaos results. When laws are ignored by those who have taken
an oath to uphold those laws, even greater chaos results, because then many are
given the impression that our laws are meaningless.The law is not
meaningless. Breaking a law has consequences. Families will be hurt. Those
families were first hurt when they chose to ignore immigration laws. They were
hurt again when our politicians wanted their vote and chose to ignore their
illegal activity. Now they will be hurt a third time when the original law is
enforced.Obedience to law brings happiness. Breaking laws brings
misery. Choices have consequences.
... when its easier and less time consuming to rely on emotion.The
Deseret News should not be surprised when this thoughtful editorial is roundly
rejected by the majority of Utahns.It was only weeks ago that the
current Lt. Governor, a man with zero scientific experience or training
questioned a Nobel Prize winning scientist on the validity of global warming.With their reaction to this editorial, Utahns will again illustrate how
comfortable they are with a fact-free society.
Why do the Democrats work so hard to steal elections and gain control of
legislatures when they advocate ignoring the laws that already exist? The
operative word here is "illegal." As for the issue of Federal and State
jurisdiction, we already settled that question 136 years ago. Over 600,000
Americans, the equivalent of over 6,000,000 now, died to determine that Congress
and the Constitution get to decide who is a citizen, not some local cabal in
Atlanta or Selma or Salt Lake City.
Nearly all Federal crimes including arson, bank fraud, bank robbery, bribery,
carjacking, child pornography, identity theft, identity fraud and many more are
enforced at state, local and federal levels.So why would these
hypocrites in sanctuary areas feel illegal immigration is any different? Those who come here illegally, steal our IDs and ignore our laws have
already demonstrated they lack the honesty and decency to ever become American
citizens. a.) Enforce the existing immigration laws.b.) Secure
the border.c.) Don't hire illegal aliens.d.) No anchor babies.e.) Deportation through attrition.
The editorial says, “The law places extra burdens on business owners,
requiring them to use an E-verify system for which many of them lack training.
Elsewhere, this system has been shown to reject legal residents by
mistake.” A study in June 2009 by the Program Evaluation
Division of the Office of the Legislative Auditor, State of Minnesota found that
most participating Minnesota businesses have positive opinions of E-Verify and
report that the cost of using the system is not a significant concern. This
study also reported that the accuracy of E-Verify has improved and that
nationally, 93 percent or more of queries result in immediate verification of
work-authorization; less than 1 percent result in erroneous determinations that
an employee is not eligible to work. Did you get that? Less than 1%
of queries result in erroneous determinations that an employee is not eligible
to work. This is infinitely more accurate than eyeballing fraudulent IDs and
pretending not to notice. I just wish all employers were required
to use E-Verify. I think the day will come.
The editorial says that E-Verify will pull apart families. Families may be
pulled apart because the adults CHOSE to enter or stay in this country illegally
with full knowledge that they were breaking the law. They certainly do not need
to be separated but can take their children home with them. Again, it is their
CHOICE. Whatever happened to people being taught to be accountable for their
own actions? Breaking laws brings consequences for each of us. It has ever
been so. I cannot understand why some folks think illegal aliens and their
employers aren’t required to be accountable for their actions like the
rest of us. How many American families are separated when our
soldiers go off to war? How many families are separated when sons or daughters
(or parents) go on missions? Consider all the criminals in prisons who are
separated from their families. None of these can choose to take their children
with them. Illegal aliens are free to do so. Their choice to break the law
brought them to this point. It is also their choice about whether or not to
break up their family. They do have choices.
Typical Desnews Milk Toast.