Deseret News | Scouting – done right – builds spiritual leaders, says Mormon author

Reader comments
Scouting – done right – builds spiritual leaders, says Mormon author

Venturing in VA | 6:57 a.m. June 30, 2009

Brother Harris came to our stake a year ago and gave a fantastic presentation on Scouting and the Church. I just ordered his book and look forward to reading his suggestions. Scouting can provide so much opportunity for personal growth and development. But all too frequently it has been thought of only in terms of "getting awards" and more "classes" to "learn about" (ie hear) merit badges instead of going out and doing things and working together as a team (troop or crew).

One of the struggles and opportunities in LDS Scouting is the charge to reach out to ALL young men and not focus exclusively on those that are interested in one particular aspect of the program. Having small groups of boys often with widely varying interests can be particularly tough to weld together.

I'm grateful for the Scouting program and hope that I can help make it more effective in my sphere of influence.

A little more flexibility | 8:37 a.m. June 30, 2009

I had the opportunity to be Scoutmaster for 12 years in a LDS troop in Massachusetts. We were a small branch, later a small ward, and only had a few boys in each age group of the Aaronic Priesthood. My Branch President, and later my Bishops, allowed me to have all three age groups in the troop, with each age group being a patrol. The patrols were encouraged to have their own activities in addition to the activity of the full troop. This scheme worked well four our small church group and provided leadership opportunities for the older boys that they wouldn't have had if they were required to have their own Venture or Explorer unit. It's difficult to have good programs when there are only 3 or 4 boys in each age group.

Later, when I moved to Utah, I wrote a letter to the General Scouting Committee suggesting that small wards and branches have the option to have all age groups in the scout troop, but I never received a reply and the policy of having the scout troop be just for the Deacon age was not changed.

A Man's Perspective | 8:41 a.m. June 30, 2009

The article says,

"Harris said the focus needs to move from being centered on advancement to creating spiritual opportunities for young men."

Amen. Amen and AMEN.

I am a scout leader in my ward and all I ever hear about is advancement, merit badges, awards, etc. Even when the boys don't really earn the badges, or when their involvement is questionable there is immense pressure from Priesthood leaders to award them. My Bishop said that "we want to look good at the next stake court of honor". Therefore, we need to make sure that the boys have a boat-load of awards so that the Bishop and the ward look good. Such nonsense is this that I am close to asking to be released.

Scouting needs parent involvement. It needs a well-functioning scout committee and everybody needs to be involved. If your boy is in scouting, please do what you can to help out - ask to be on the scout committee and do NOT expect the scout leaders to do everything and practically earn the awards for your boy.

Focus on what is right.

I look forward to reading the book.

Comments continue below

Scouting | 8:57 a.m. June 30, 2009

Scouting is for nerdy kids that are not able to learn these life lessons in sports or other more worthwhile activities.

Clem | 9:08 a.m. June 30, 2009

The problem with scouting in Utah is that the boys see participation in it as a right, not a priviledge. But who is surprised by this fact when the local system puts every boy in scouting, regardless of need or interest? This leads to a casual, non-committed attitude that drags down the program. If scout leaders had the flexibility to get rid of the trouble makers in the troop, those who were committed would have a better experience.

Scouting lessons | 9:56 a.m. June 30, 2009

My brother-in-law was very active in organizing scouting functions but through his work he found that the Mormon scouts were excluded from using Christian scouts facilities. This eventually led to him leaving the church.

He got it right | 11:25 a.m. June 30, 2009

This is exactly the program the way it is supposed to be run. The comments here about small troops and issues with untrained LDS Scout leaders are spot on. When all leaders get the vision and the training the program will do what it is supposed to do, and that is produce a fine young man desiring to go on a mission, and capable of dealing with the challenges of life. Scouting is the way!!!

We used non-LDS scout facilities | 11:38 a.m. June 30, 2009

In my years in being a Scoutmaster in Massachusetts, we were the only LDS troop in our District, and I attended the monthly Round Tables, and we attended quarterly District campouts and the yearly summer camp. We marched in the annual Memorial Day parade in my town. All of these activities were non-LDS. The highlight of 12 summer camps was the time we shared a campsite with an innercity non-LDS troop.

When I first moved to Massachusetts from Phoenix, I was told we had to be registered in the District that served the Stake Center in New Hampshire and that I should attend the round tables provided by the Stake. However, within the first year, that policy changed, and I immediately registered my troop in the District in which we lived, and I started attending the Round Tables and other training provided by our Massachusetts District. My guess is that the policy during my first year against non-LDS activities was a local policy and not a church-wide policy. All of this was over 30 years ago, so the freedom I experienced to be active in non-LDS scout activities goes back that far, at least.

John | 11:52 a.m. June 30, 2009

How can you expect to get trained when 6 months later you have a new calling? I think it would work better run on a stake level with a stake troop and ward patrols. That way serious scouters can run the program.

In my opinion scouting may have had its prime 30 years ago. The Duty to God program works much better for today. You have a lot more flexibility.

On a side note, of course the professional scouter/ author thinks scouting is the answer. He better or he should step down from his job with the BSA. I think he might be a bit biased.

kenny | 12:34 p.m. June 30, 2009

My opinon is that the objective of any ward scouting program should be to give each boy the chance to obtain their highest potential weither that be the rank of Eagle Scout,learn leadership skills,or just have a good time on campouts and other activities.The boys don't need to compete against eachother.The stength of the troop is mesaured by the strength of the individual boy.Every boy who exits the program is a success.The only failure in scouting is when the leaders don't provide for the individual boy.We don't need experts in scout leadership.........we need just the willing.

kenny | 1:08 p.m. June 30, 2009

I get a little angry with the notion that a good scouting progam is based on the best adult leadership.Scouting is about our boys and not about the scoutmaster and his wonderful skills.You put an adult in the program who can move a boy from tenderfoot to Eagle,teach the boy leadership skills,allow the boy to grow spiritually and so forth, then you have the right man in that position.Even if this leader has obtained the highest awards in scouting himself, if he can't get the one boy excited about his potential then he has no business being in scouting.I've seem too many leaders far too busy running the troop and not be concerned about the one boy who sits back and refuses to partisipate.You lose a boy in scouting and you lose him forever.

Dutch | 1:30 p.m. June 30, 2009

To many " Mormon" Eagle Scouts get them before they are 14 Pressue Pressue Pressure - Can't get a drivers license until you get your Eagle That is not the way to do it - They need to get them because they want them. There is no mention in any Mormon Doctrine that if you do not get an Eagle you will not make it.

To much focus on awards and not the servcie aspect of the organization

John Pack Lambert | 2:25 p.m. June 30, 2009

I have never heard of a stake court of honor before. If what the earlier commentator said reflects its normal results, I have to say it is a good thing. Of course, here in Michigan it is just not logistically reasonable to do such a thing.

John Pack Lambert | 2:32 p.m. June 30, 2009

The notion of a stakewide troop is inpractical. First off, the goal in scout troops is to provide leadership opportunities for the boys. Secondly, in most areas of the world you are lucky to be able to get all the boys in the ward out to activities. Even in Las Vegas, with fairly small wards, it was more than some leaders were willing to do to drive the extra mile or two to pick up some boys so they could come to scouting. If things were on a stakewide basis the logistics would be that much worse.

l | 2:43 p.m. June 30, 2009

A stake troop isn't a big deal. It works about the same as it does now, except there is a little more coordination and a few big activities with everyone. For the most part, scouting activities are focused on the patrols. It's less than useful to have just one patrol in a troop. The way scouting is designed is you'd have 40 or 50 boys in a troop, with 7 or 8 boys in a patrol, and enough assistant scoutmasters as needed. Then the patrols have activities by themselves as well as competition against other patrols. Having one troop of three boys just doesn't work the way the BSA has organized things.

Eastern US Member | 2:50 p.m. June 30, 2009

I currently have two sons in the Scouting program. In areas, like the one where I live, that have a small number of strong members, running a "good" Scouting program is nearly impossible. Scouting has become overly bureaucratic, and there is a constant struggle in the Scouting Districts between the way the LDS church programs are run and the way regular Scouting troops are run. Small LDS wards can't possibly staff all of the positions, merit badge counselors, committee members, etc. etc. that are needed to match what the current BSA regulations demand. I've seen too many boys, parents, leaders, etc. become discouraged while attempting to get through the program. I think Scouting teaches wonderful principles, but the program is too onerous. I would love to see the church drop the Scouting program and make the Duty to God program better, instead of the hybrid that it is now. The Duty to God program is simpler, can be effectively run in any sized ward or branch, and places more emphasis back in the home (where it should be). It's sad how many parents dread having to put another son through the Scouting program!

The Real John Pack Lambert | 4:04 p.m. June 30, 2009

Someone is trying to use my name, but that is okay because imitation is the best form of flattery.

Stake scout troops make a lot of sense in terms of coordinating activities and being able to check on their progress.

John Pack Lambert | 4:36 p.m. June 30, 2009

Actually, it is the 4:04 commentator who is making false claims of name possesion. While it is vaguely possible that he is also named John Pack Lambert, he is not the one who has posted under this name on many occasions here.
I see no reason for radiclly rethinking the scout program. The Aaronic Priesthood is clearly a responsibility of the bishop, so making an organization like scouting that is so closely connected with it has to be kept at a ward level where the bishop has oversight.

doctormom | 4:41 p.m. June 30, 2009

It is a good thing the LDS scouting program is not up to some of you! Scouting is an arm of the Priesthood. It was obvious inspiration was used to choose this as the youth program for Young men. I have seen it save many lives & help prepare young men to become worthy husbands & fathers. It is not up to you to judge. If you have any questions check on any talks President Dahlquist has written. Or how about President Monson? Both huge advocates of Scouting. I have seen this program turn boys around who were lost. It depends on the leader & the parents. I haven't read the book or the article but hope it supports the principles taught in our church & in scouting.

gblotter | 10:00 p.m. June 30, 2009

It's understandable that Brother Harris has an emotional attachment to the Venturing program that he helped create, but I see little practical value in it. I wonder if there is a single ward in the church that is successfully implementing Venture and Varsity programs with their separate awards, etc. From what I can discern, most older boys in the Aaronic Priesthood are simply trying to finish off their Eagle before they completely run out of gas and become too distracted with school, sports, girls, etc. Some wards may call that Venturing and Varsity, but in name only. With the Eagle Scout advancement program, and the separate Venturing and Varsity award programs, and the Duty To God award program, I think families are more than a little overwhelmed and justifiably confused. Simplification and streamlining is in order. I say eliminate Venturing and Varsity (since nobody is really implementing those programs according to their design anyway) and create older boy patrols in the troop for the purpose of high-adventure activities and finishing off Eagle. That matches the essense of what is actually happening in most wards, regardless of what label they may attach to it.

Katy | 10:22 p.m. June 30, 2009

re:doctormom

Scouting is not an arm of the Priesthood - it has nothing to do with the Priesthood of Jesus Christ. It is the activity arm of the Young Men program and that is all it is. It does not work very effectively as part of the Young Men program in many parts of the Church worldwide. The Duty to God program is much more effective for use throughout the world.

A leader's perspective | 10:51 p.m. June 30, 2009

I think Scouting is a great program. It's mission statement says "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law."

Scouting should not be a competition between wards for merit badge numbers.

Scouting should not be a huge nursery school to spoon-feed a boy 3 or 4 years worth of information and then give him an Eagle award for attending.

Scouting should not be a program run by adults for boys.

Scouting should be an organized, well-run program with BOY leaders and adults functioning in ADVISORY roles only.

Boys should plan and run activities, participate in community service, learn skills, explore career opportunities, and learn teamwork and citizenship.

It would be nice if every boy earned his Eagle, but it lacks meaning and value if everyone is awarded it regardless of commitment, desire and participation level.

Failures on the part of some does not condemn the quality of the whole program. If it's not working, get people in who will get out of the way and let boys be Scouts!

Controlling parents | 8:17 a.m. July 1, 2009

Here is a story that illustrates why controlling parents need to let go of their boys and why I think deacon-age-only scouting programs won't provide the leadership opportunities that older boys can provide.

The boy's mother always got him ready for campouts. I talked privately with her and encouraged her to give that responsibility to her son. She did, and the boy came to our next campout with only a baby receiving blanket and a frying pan. No food, no sleeping bag, no protection against the below freezing temperatures that night.

I sent the boy to the campfire program and found my SPL (a Priest) and said, "You have a problem." He and his assistant SPL (another Priest) found the boy's PL (a Teacher) and said, "You have a problem". They got the boy in a tent with another boy and his patrol shared their food. The next day, I talked privately with the boy and asked him one question: "What could you do to make your campouts more enjoyable." His answer covered preparation from A-Z. The next month he came well prepared, and his mother said it was all done by him.

Anonymous | 3:36 p.m. July 1, 2009

I am an atheist and a scouter. The most annoying thing about doing scouting with people from Utah is how they take over everything and think "spirituality" is the purpose of scouting. It is not. It never was. If Baden-Powell had wanted to start a religion, he would have. But he didn't. He ALLOWED religion in the scouting program in the most generic terms only. No specific god is emphasized. You can believe in Krishna, or Allah, or Jesus, or even Baal. Or you can believe in "a higher power" - for me and atheists like me, our "higher power" is whatever we want it to be - electricity, magnetism, some abstract "life force", the big bang - whatever. But when LDS scouters get involved, they try to force everything into their own religious categories. They try to make kids advance in scouting lockstep with Mormon priesthood. It is a complete distortion of what Scouting is supposed to be. I agree with the author that Scouting is great. I completely disagree that the LDS influence on Scouting has been anything but negative! LDS should leave scouting alone! Make your own programs and get out of ours!

kiaoraguy | 4:18 p.m. July 1, 2009

To Anonymous- I have no idea what you're experience with scouting is outside of Utah, but I have quite a bit. In one state LDS scouts were always looked down on and District and Council leadership rarely was held by adult LDS scouters. It was usually the guys who smoked, drank and looked at Playboy together. The youth leaders I worked with from other demoninations were always more concerned about what girls they could have sex with and what kind of a kegger was around...yeah, LDS influence really ruins scouting.

To Scouting | 8:57 | 4:48 p.m. July 1, 2009

What an ungracious way of stating an important truth!

Some kids won't have the same opportunities you may have had to excel, or even participate, in sports. They are no less worthy of achievement, mentoring, learning, and even excelling at something.

Scouting provides an avenue for each of those. It's not nirvana, but it's another arrow in the Bishop's quiver to meet the needs of some very valuable sons of God.

I should point out, as well, that jocks often enjoy, learn from, and fondly remember our scouting experiences, as well.

It's unfortunate that our society values the contributions of gifted athlete, above almost all other pursuits. That's why the Scouting program is so important to a Bishop.

Anonymous | 9:13 p.m. July 5, 2009

I am finding some of my own challenges in trying to run a "successful" scouting program in my ward as a committee chair.
I am finding that all involved in the program are overwhelmed with the responsibilities placed on them to run a strong program. To do it right requires a large commitment from all involved, leaders and scouts alike. People are extremely busy already with their own personal lives and responsibilites. My job as far as I can tell as committee chair is to motivate, encourage,organize, compel, harass, beg, and make other people do their scout callings. This is tough for me since I too am swamped with family, school and work duties and don't particularly love scouting anyway. I admire those who are willing to do anything with scouting. It really does take individuals who love scouting to fulfill the multiple layers of bureaucracy, let alone go camping every month. It really does take individuals that love scouting to make it work at all.

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