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In our opinion: UTOPIA critics were right
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More bailouts | 6:49 a.m. June 22, 2009
More bailouts for a society based on bailouts?
Non-Utopia user | 7:11 a.m. June 22, 2009
I have high-speed Internet 12MB fiber-optic and so thankful I do not live in a
UTOPIA city. According to their website, the member cities are: Tremonton,
Brigham City, Perry, Layton, Centerville, West Valley City, Murray, Riverton,
Midvale, Cedar Hills, Lindon, Orem, Payson and Cedar City. I hope these
residents are ready for some of their city tax revenues to pay for Utopia.
Most of the cities are only planned for future phases. It'll be too bad those cities will pay money for something they don't have yet.
Most of the cities are only planned for future phases. It'll be too bad those cities will pay money for something they don't have yet.
Comments continue below
You're Misinformed | 7:24 a.m. June 22, 2009
There has been nothing lucky about the Provo City experience. The city has
already squandered more than $20 million out of pocket from the Energy reserve
fund and other reserves. The city still owes the $40 million bond. Broadweave
gets to experiment with Provo's network while the bond payments are being
paid by very unlucky investors.
Lucky? I don't think so!!
Now Utopia will start dipping into city general budget funds across the state. Great I pay taxes so Utopia can use them to unfairly compete with the private sector. Make it stop!
Please remember that this all started in Provo at the Energy department. Without this insanity there would be no Utopia.
Lucky? I don't think so!!
Now Utopia will start dipping into city general budget funds across the state. Great I pay taxes so Utopia can use them to unfairly compete with the private sector. Make it stop!
Please remember that this all started in Provo at the Energy department. Without this insanity there would be no Utopia.
u235sentinel | 7:29 a.m. June 22, 2009
Between Concast and Qwest, do we really think this is competition? We have
slower solutions available in wireless but again, that's competition?
Perhaps we should look at encouraging other companies (such as Verizion) to bring FIOS to the Rocky Mountains. They would be the closest in services and speed to provide real competition around here.
Honestly, Qwest cannot hope to compete with Concast. They simply can't provide similar speeds or services.
Perhaps we should look at encouraging other companies (such as Verizion) to bring FIOS to the Rocky Mountains. They would be the closest in services and speed to provide real competition around here.
Honestly, Qwest cannot hope to compete with Concast. They simply can't provide similar speeds or services.
Don't elect incumbents | 7:36 a.m. June 22, 2009
NOW is the time to choose NEW leaders both locally and in the state legislature.
UTOPIA is a state wide thing sponsored first by the elected legislators and
secondly by elected city council members!
Jesse Harris | 9:07 a.m. June 22, 2009
I hope your questions were more than rhetorical.
Local governments have an interest in funding next-generation telecommunications because the local incumbents have failed to do so even when offered payments by a city to offset the cost. We've slid to 20th in broadband adoption and around 19th in speed among industrialized countries despite incumbents being provided with over $300B in benefits under the Telco Act of '96 to provide a full-fiber network capable of 45Mbps bi-directional Internet access, video teleconferencing, and 500+ HD channels with competing service providers. Cities have identified a need for the infrastructure and have tried to get incumbents to provider it, yet they failed to do so. What option are they left with?
You raise issues about fair competition but fail to mention that Qwest has attempted to legislate and litigate competing solutions out of business. Comcast regularly sells services below-cost in UTOPIA areas to try and drive them out of business, a tactic once employed by Standard Oil. If we want to talk about playing dirty, let's. UTOPIA has much cleaner hands in this matter. (continued)
Local governments have an interest in funding next-generation telecommunications because the local incumbents have failed to do so even when offered payments by a city to offset the cost. We've slid to 20th in broadband adoption and around 19th in speed among industrialized countries despite incumbents being provided with over $300B in benefits under the Telco Act of '96 to provide a full-fiber network capable of 45Mbps bi-directional Internet access, video teleconferencing, and 500+ HD channels with competing service providers. Cities have identified a need for the infrastructure and have tried to get incumbents to provider it, yet they failed to do so. What option are they left with?
You raise issues about fair competition but fail to mention that Qwest has attempted to legislate and litigate competing solutions out of business. Comcast regularly sells services below-cost in UTOPIA areas to try and drive them out of business, a tactic once employed by Standard Oil. If we want to talk about playing dirty, let's. UTOPIA has much cleaner hands in this matter. (continued)
Informed | 9:11 a.m. June 22, 2009
Misinformed: Get your facts right.
I don't believe UTOPIA is a child of iProvo in any form or manner. Before iProvo ever considered building a fiber network (their original plan called for a HFC network similar to what Comcast offered and Spanish Fork built (successfully)) there was a consulting group, Pinnacle Services (?) that later split and morphed into Dynamic Cities, planning to help cities here in Utah build a FTTH network. They approached Provo pitching fiber when Provo believed fiber was too costly.
Don't Elect Incumbents:
The legislature was never supportive of either iProvo or UTOPIA. Local officials were, but not many members of the legislature. Currently city officials (The Board of Directors) assist UTOPIA in keeping the "business" secret from the public. Those incumbents and the secretive UTOPIA management team should be replaced.
I don't believe UTOPIA is a child of iProvo in any form or manner. Before iProvo ever considered building a fiber network (their original plan called for a HFC network similar to what Comcast offered and Spanish Fork built (successfully)) there was a consulting group, Pinnacle Services (?) that later split and morphed into Dynamic Cities, planning to help cities here in Utah build a FTTH network. They approached Provo pitching fiber when Provo believed fiber was too costly.
Don't Elect Incumbents:
The legislature was never supportive of either iProvo or UTOPIA. Local officials were, but not many members of the legislature. Currently city officials (The Board of Directors) assist UTOPIA in keeping the "business" secret from the public. Those incumbents and the secretive UTOPIA management team should be replaced.
Jesse Harris | 9:13 a.m. June 22, 2009
UTOPIA is exploring many avenues for generating the necessary revenue. Remember
that all they do is sell transport from one point on their network to another.
The market for this kind of service is growing rapidly, especially if
you're providing transport for wireless/cellular towers. I can't
discuss specifics (show me a company willing to show their customer list), but
maybe you should go visit with these guys to find out what's going on.
UTOPIA provides addresses they serve with an additional 7 providers, 4 of which serve homes. On average, a home with 4 service providers will pay 25% less than a home with only 2 regardless of which provider they are with. This cost savings is actually greater than the entirety of the bond pledge amount. So yes, they are providing a very valuable service and entirely justify the cost of their existence.
I wouldn't call Provo lucky. Broadweave will run out of investor cash to pay the bond in February at which point the network could go back to the city. I guess a private company isn't having a lot of luck either.
UTOPIA provides addresses they serve with an additional 7 providers, 4 of which serve homes. On average, a home with 4 service providers will pay 25% less than a home with only 2 regardless of which provider they are with. This cost savings is actually greater than the entirety of the bond pledge amount. So yes, they are providing a very valuable service and entirely justify the cost of their existence.
I wouldn't call Provo lucky. Broadweave will run out of investor cash to pay the bond in February at which point the network could go back to the city. I guess a private company isn't having a lot of luck either.
Mike | 9:19 a.m. June 22, 2009
The govenment should never step in where the private sector can do a better job.
Snarr buffaloed everyone in Murray with the promise of better internet.
Didn't happen and all it does is cost money. Any mayor in any town that
supported this should be removed from office at the earliest convenience.
UTOPIA doesn't reach | 9:29 a.m. June 22, 2009
UTOPIA has limited coverage areas even in the cities and towns where it is
available. In some places less than 25% of city residents have access to
UTOPIA, however their tax dollars will be used to pay.
UTOPIA was sabotaged | 9:31 a.m. June 22, 2009
The current bond situation is likely not UTOPIA's fault, but a result of
bank failures.
To address the article's questions (paraphrased):
Why fund UTOPIA?
At the time UTOPIA was started, most parts of member cities were not served by any high speed providers. Those that did offer services used every dirty trick they could to prevent UTOPIA from succeeding.
Does UTOPIA compete fairly?
UTOPIA does not intend to compete at all. It's just a fiber-optic network. Private ISPs provide services on the network. UTOPIA benefits local businesses, like XMission and MSTAR, and keeps money here. Comcast and Qwest could have offered services on the network.
How will it be profitable?
Other cities in states and countries more sparsely populated than Utah have proven that municipal fiber can work. If I could get it, I'd sign up now.
I have no affiliation with UTOPIA or any ISP. I speak only for myself, as a local citizen who is tired of sending money to gigantic out-of-state corporations for half the speed at double the price. You can use Google and the Free Utopia watchdog site (also no affiliation) to verify my claims.
To address the article's questions (paraphrased):
Why fund UTOPIA?
At the time UTOPIA was started, most parts of member cities were not served by any high speed providers. Those that did offer services used every dirty trick they could to prevent UTOPIA from succeeding.
Does UTOPIA compete fairly?
UTOPIA does not intend to compete at all. It's just a fiber-optic network. Private ISPs provide services on the network. UTOPIA benefits local businesses, like XMission and MSTAR, and keeps money here. Comcast and Qwest could have offered services on the network.
How will it be profitable?
Other cities in states and countries more sparsely populated than Utah have proven that municipal fiber can work. If I could get it, I'd sign up now.
I have no affiliation with UTOPIA or any ISP. I speak only for myself, as a local citizen who is tired of sending money to gigantic out-of-state corporations for half the speed at double the price. You can use Google and the Free Utopia watchdog site (also no affiliation) to verify my claims.
Search Utah UTOPIA | 9:36 a.m. June 22, 2009
Do an online search of UTOPIA for more information on the state and local
government involvement. There is no shortage of UTOPIA information, including
deficit spending and legal papers with challenges and questions.
Jesse Harris | 9:37 a.m. June 22, 2009
Mike said: "The govenment should never step in where the private sector can
do a better job."
And the private sector isn't doing a better job. They offer an inferior product at an inferior price while experiencing financial troubles of their own. Qwest is carrying one heck of a debt load right now and can't afford to spend any real money on network upgrades. Is that the kind of private sector "success" you want us to look at?
And the private sector isn't doing a better job. They offer an inferior product at an inferior price while experiencing financial troubles of their own. Qwest is carrying one heck of a debt load right now and can't afford to spend any real money on network upgrades. Is that the kind of private sector "success" you want us to look at?
Provo lucky? | 9:41 a.m. June 22, 2009
Provo lucky? I think not. iProvo was a great idea. It still is. The
implementation of the idea was mishandled from the start, and the back-room
sweetheart deal that sold the network off to Billings' buddies was just one
more instance of the problem.
We should have had an open network in much the same model as Utopia. Instead we got Homenet, then Mstar and inVeracity, and finally the Broadweave fiasco.
Before the sale last year, several people opined that Broadweave would prove to be another disaster like HomeNet. I said then, and I repeat now: those people are irrationally optimistic.
We should have had an open network in much the same model as Utopia. Instead we got Homenet, then Mstar and inVeracity, and finally the Broadweave fiasco.
Before the sale last year, several people opined that Broadweave would prove to be another disaster like HomeNet. I said then, and I repeat now: those people are irrationally optimistic.
You're Misinformed | 10:53 a.m. June 22, 2009
To informed who stated. "Before iProvo ever considered building a fiber
network (their original plan called for a HFC network similar to what Comcast
offered and Spanish Fork built (successfully)) there was a consulting group,
Pinnacle Services (?) that later split and morphed into Dynamic Cities,"
I'm talking about way before Pinnacle, clear back when Provo dreamed up this offering of telecommunications services to fatten up their general fund. It doesn't matter if it's coax, fiber, or wireless, it's municiple meddling in the free market. Pinnacle and the ensuing Dynamic Cities guys came later. Provo was proud of being the big leader in those days and now they just want to hide.
I'm talking about way before Pinnacle, clear back when Provo dreamed up this offering of telecommunications services to fatten up their general fund. It doesn't matter if it's coax, fiber, or wireless, it's municiple meddling in the free market. Pinnacle and the ensuing Dynamic Cities guys came later. Provo was proud of being the big leader in those days and now they just want to hide.
Aahhh, Eutopia... | 12:34 p.m. June 22, 2009
Eutopia just has such a wonderful and comforting sound to it... No wonder people
bought into it!
Qwest? | 12:57 p.m. June 22, 2009
I live in the middle of Salt Lake County. Qwest still does not have even DSL,
let alone fiber available. We've been waiting for 7 years for something
and we keep getting told that it will be available "in a couple of
months." Qwest was all promises when my city was thinking of joining
UTOPIA, once we opted out, they forgot all about us.
Tax Whiners | 1:17 p.m. June 22, 2009
Taxes Shmaxes! I am so tired of listening to people who have plenty of money
whine about any tax, no matter how small, unless it benefits them directly and
is paid by someone else.
Who cares whether "Scamcast" and "Money Qwest" can compete (and health insurance companies for that matter). The airwaves belong to the people. We shouldn't have to pay many hundreds of dollars a years to use something developed by the military, with the tax money you whine about.
We should never have allowed either one of those companies to own the infrastructure, just like we don't let power companies own public resources. In the case of Rate Qwest we paid to build the fiber optic networks they use and Scumcast piggybacks.
Who cares whether "Scamcast" and "Money Qwest" can compete (and health insurance companies for that matter). The airwaves belong to the people. We shouldn't have to pay many hundreds of dollars a years to use something developed by the military, with the tax money you whine about.
We should never have allowed either one of those companies to own the infrastructure, just like we don't let power companies own public resources. In the case of Rate Qwest we paid to build the fiber optic networks they use and Scumcast piggybacks.
Anonymous | 1:20 p.m. June 22, 2009
UTOPIA was sabotaged: Surely you jest, they failed for a number of reasons, too
many to list, but the most significant one is they were out of their element.
I sat in on the very first presentaion of UTOPIA, I asked the question how will you fund it, simple they the UTOPIA board said, with revenue bonds.
No body is buying ecommerce type bonds since Europe has gone down the tube to the tune of two and half trillion I answered so nobody will buy them.
We have a different plan and our take rate will be 40% they answered, never happen I replied.
Now after squandering somewhere between 300-400 million and the pit is bottomlees you blame the bank failure for something government should never been involved with.
Either you work for Utopia or you don't know much about business.
This was a flawed plan, worked up by bueracrats from West Valley and Murray both who should be brought up on charges for failure of their fucdiciary duty.
Oh well lets just relect them.
I sat in on the very first presentaion of UTOPIA, I asked the question how will you fund it, simple they the UTOPIA board said, with revenue bonds.
No body is buying ecommerce type bonds since Europe has gone down the tube to the tune of two and half trillion I answered so nobody will buy them.
We have a different plan and our take rate will be 40% they answered, never happen I replied.
Now after squandering somewhere between 300-400 million and the pit is bottomlees you blame the bank failure for something government should never been involved with.
Either you work for Utopia or you don't know much about business.
This was a flawed plan, worked up by bueracrats from West Valley and Murray both who should be brought up on charges for failure of their fucdiciary duty.
Oh well lets just relect them.
Lucky Farmington Resident | 2:02 p.m. June 22, 2009
I live in Farmington (not one of the UTOPIA cities). I actually have pretty
decent Internet speeds (by Utah standards), but only because I'm lucky
enough to live along a street serviced by Comcast. Most of my neighbors
DON'T have Comcast...they're the UNLUCKY ones who live along the
streets and cul-de-sacs branching off my street. When will they get Comcast? Not
any time soon. Neither they nor Qwest are making any infrastructure investments
that aren't absolutely necessary to stay in business.
However, I don't blame Qwest...I blame the Farmington Planning Commission and City Council at the time Comcast first installed cable. They should have made their permission for Comcast to build out in Farmington conditional on servicing the entire city. As for right now, developers should be required to install fiber to the home in every new subdivision as part of their agreement with the city.
However, I don't blame Qwest...I blame the Farmington Planning Commission and City Council at the time Comcast first installed cable. They should have made their permission for Comcast to build out in Farmington conditional on servicing the entire city. As for right now, developers should be required to install fiber to the home in every new subdivision as part of their agreement with the city.
Sandy is Eutopia | 2:12 p.m. June 22, 2009
I live in Sandy. I don't know if we're a UTOPIA city or not, but my
internet (through Comcast) is plenty fast for me. Maybe Sany IS Eutopia.
You guys don't understand. | 4:18 p.m. June 22, 2009
UTOPIA is not a government ran ISP, and doesn't compete with Qwest and
Comcast. It's simply a network of fiber optic lines that private
ISP's can connect to and provide service over. The idea is that ISP's
can compete without each one needing to bury their own cables everywhere. In
addition, it's by far the fastest connection you can possibly get at home.
You can get 50Mbps in each direction, upload and download, for around $80. Or
15/15 for about $40. If you think Qwest and Comcast, both of which are
notorious for terrible service, and have a lot of restrictions on what you can
do with your connection in their terms of service (which most UTOPIA ISP's
do not have) are worthy competitors to that, you simply have no clue what
you're talking about.
@Why was Utopia necessary? | 5:13 p.m. June 22, 2009
Because fiber optics can carry infinitely more bandwidth.
@Non-Utopia user | 5:21 p.m. June 22, 2009
I too have 12 mb fiber optic DLS but only on the download side. Only 798 kb on
the upload side.
I wish I had Utopia where I could get 50 mb up and down for less than the 12 mb down I'm getting now. I also understand that the HD TV picture quality from fiber optics is phenomenal because there is no need for compression like cable and satellite.
I wish I had Utopia where I could get 50 mb up and down for less than the 12 mb down I'm getting now. I also understand that the HD TV picture quality from fiber optics is phenomenal because there is no need for compression like cable and satellite.
Satisfied customer | 8:56 a.m. June 23, 2009
I love UTOPIA.
Fastest internet I have ever experienced.
Better rate than the local bozos at the phone and cable companies offer.
TV pic is awesome. They just need more money to expand. It will happen one way or another.
Fastest internet I have ever experienced.
Better rate than the local bozos at the phone and cable companies offer.
TV pic is awesome. They just need more money to expand. It will happen one way or another.
Wishful to be a customer | 10:26 a.m. June 23, 2009
UTOPIA was sabotaged. They were hand strung and forced by the terms of those
providing funding to build out in the more rural, non technical neighborhoods
first. penetration (subscribers) in those areas is low and can't sustain
the costs. Had they been allowed to concentrate in neighborhoods like mine they
would have high subscriber rates.
Qwest and Comcast NEVER considered serving my neighborhood until after the "UTOPIA" threat came along. I couldn't even get 33K baud modem speed out of my phone line. Comcast is fast enough for the general low tech home user, but I would be VERY happy to have 50 MB fiber.
Oh, yeah the news media have forbid it.
Thank Dnews for your concern.
Qwest and Comcast NEVER considered serving my neighborhood until after the "UTOPIA" threat came along. I couldn't even get 33K baud modem speed out of my phone line. Comcast is fast enough for the general low tech home user, but I would be VERY happy to have 50 MB fiber.
Oh, yeah the news media have forbid it.
Thank Dnews for your concern.
None | 11:06 p.m. June 23, 2009
I have UTOPIA at my home and get the 15/15 plan for $40/mo which is much better
than the 8/1.5 for $50 from Comcast. TV is ok. Cheaper than Comcast, but I like
Comcasts DVRs better. On a side note, my company who is downtown decided to
start setting up webservers to host their sites and charge for hosting. Guess
what they did? They rented a small business unit in Murray. The reason why?
Because they can get 50/50 for something like $70/month and have near unlimited
bandwidth.
UTOPIA...... | 8:24 a.m. June 24, 2009
I love how people complain about "the big bad out of state
corporations". So, how many UTOPIA, Veracity, Fuzecore, MStar, employees
live in, let's say Tremonton??? As far as I know there are none! And
let's be honest, if Qwest, AT&T, Verizon, or Frontier would have signed
up as a provider on UTOPIA's network, UTOPIA would have been drooling all
over themselves!! Then Jesse Harris would you have had nothing more to blog
about!!! What would you do with all of your free time Jesse??
Farmington Business | 9:53 p.m. June 25, 2009
We need utopia in our building. Qwest wants 30k to get fiber lines to our
building for Internet, Comcast wants 19k to get lines to our business. and we
have to PAY PAY PAY. These companies do not expand their servcie outside the
minimum foot print, Qwest servcie is awful, Comcast has too much latency and I
wish for fiber everyday. UTOPIA is not a bad idea, it is truly the best
competition Qwest and Comcast could have, that is why they have attacked with
such venom towards these little guys.
I hope a private firm will buy Utopia and start taking major business market share in their areas. I know the network admins and managers would flock to them if they only had the option to explore.
I hope a private firm will buy Utopia and start taking major business market share in their areas. I know the network admins and managers would flock to them if they only had the option to explore.
Good Idea part 2 | 12:35 p.m. June 26, 2009
There is no reason other then conservative inside the box thinking that this
companies is not the main provider of internet service in the Wasatch Front. If
I had a fiber optic trunk the whole valley long I would be making this whole
valley a big hot spot. With 4 G technology you could run 50 MBS speeds up and
down if you wanted. Digis is running 3 G technology and is moving to 4 and soon
will offer 25 MBS service. Wake up get out side your little fiber optic world
and see my vision that a company that would be worth investing in.
Chris | 1:58 a.m. July 8, 2009
You guy's with non-Utopia fiber live where? Daybreak? Well you OWE Utopia
for your service since Qwest would have NEVER dreamed of laying fiber to your
neighborhood (and locking up an exclusivity contract) without Utopia fiber in
Murray, Riverton, etc...
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UTOPIA employees Rob Leckie, left, Janet Rose and JD Cook work in the Network Operations Center at UTOPIA in West Valley City.
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Even in the outlying areas its available, its called hughesnet and you just put a dish on your roof to get it.