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Could 'excited delirium' be cause of deaths?
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Anonymous | 11:05 p.m. June 20, 2009
Desperately seeking excuses won't bring this man back.
A defibulator of some type should be dispatched with a car that carries a police officer with a taser. The other alternative is not to use tasers in non deadly situations. I hope the widow of this man can help others by getting this done in an settlement. Hospic not allowed in a hospital, unless they were requested. That is until changed, but the hospital had to be sued for them to concede the need for them.
A cover up for a fellow officer and policy's is out of line.
If the widow wants to give a walk for this fine.
I just don't see how she could with any type of a conscious.
A defibulator of some type should be dispatched with a car that carries a police officer with a taser. The other alternative is not to use tasers in non deadly situations. I hope the widow of this man can help others by getting this done in an settlement. Hospic not allowed in a hospital, unless they were requested. That is until changed, but the hospital had to be sued for them to concede the need for them.
A cover up for a fellow officer and policy's is out of line.
If the widow wants to give a walk for this fine.
I just don't see how she could with any type of a conscious.
Yes! | 1:06 a.m. June 21, 2009
This article gave me excited delirium.
Comments continue below
Jeff | 1:12 a.m. June 21, 2009
Just accept the fact that our Utah Police sometimes go overboard and use a Taser
when not needed. What's wrong with you people, they tasered a guy and
killed him. Tasers can kill .. it's documented.
Not a moron | 2:33 a.m. June 21, 2009
Really? They killed him? So are you saying it was murder? Manslaughter?
REEEALY???
Utah Police sometimes go overboard? What exactly do you call overboard? Have you ever been accused of going overboard when you knew the claim was bogus? Really?
Have you ever been a police officer? Have you even bothered to go through the UHP citizens academy so you can know what they go through and know what you are talking about?
They have precious little time to play 20 questions, ask if the guy wants a latte, or get him a comfy pillow. Really, you should tell us where this documentation is you refer to about tasers killing people.
Making random claims like that have no teeth and are usually bogus. Did you get it off of a 9/11 conspiracy site? Do you believe that Bush took the towers down? Was it an inside job? Really?
This case HAS NOT BEEN DOCUMENTED as to cause of death yet. It may have NOTHING to do with the taser. Really, you should figure that part out first.
Really.
Utah Police sometimes go overboard? What exactly do you call overboard? Have you ever been accused of going overboard when you knew the claim was bogus? Really?
Have you ever been a police officer? Have you even bothered to go through the UHP citizens academy so you can know what they go through and know what you are talking about?
They have precious little time to play 20 questions, ask if the guy wants a latte, or get him a comfy pillow. Really, you should tell us where this documentation is you refer to about tasers killing people.
Making random claims like that have no teeth and are usually bogus. Did you get it off of a 9/11 conspiracy site? Do you believe that Bush took the towers down? Was it an inside job? Really?
This case HAS NOT BEEN DOCUMENTED as to cause of death yet. It may have NOTHING to do with the taser. Really, you should figure that part out first.
Really.
anon | 5:09 a.m. June 21, 2009
Interesting article. I look forward to learning more about this, not to reading
more rants. to Anonymous: please proofread aloud before submitting. Much of
what you write is incoherent. It adds nothing but confusion because people
can't figure out what you are trying to say.
c'mon people | 6:36 a.m. June 21, 2009
We always want to find blame!
You know what... even his wife, Anna locked him out of the car, she didn't want him to be near their daughter. Obviously she was scared, just listen to her 911 call, you hear her fear not only that he was cabable of hurting himself, but motorists passing by. You can hear the fear YET LOVE in her voice for her husband, yet she knew he was freakin' out!!! Her voice is full of love for him!
So... before you blame officers of the law, go to law enforcement school, get out on the streets put yourself into situations as they do daily! THEN start talking about what they should do in ANY given situation!
btw I am not in law enforcment, and don't have family in law enforcement either, but I am thankful we have those who are willing to put their lives on the line EVERYDAY for our safety.
Now.... understand I know there are some "bad cops" out there, but by and large they are a minority!
My heart goes out to a wife, children, parents and siblings who have lost Brian, but.... BLAME WILL GET US NO WHERE!
You know what... even his wife, Anna locked him out of the car, she didn't want him to be near their daughter. Obviously she was scared, just listen to her 911 call, you hear her fear not only that he was cabable of hurting himself, but motorists passing by. You can hear the fear YET LOVE in her voice for her husband, yet she knew he was freakin' out!!! Her voice is full of love for him!
So... before you blame officers of the law, go to law enforcement school, get out on the streets put yourself into situations as they do daily! THEN start talking about what they should do in ANY given situation!
btw I am not in law enforcment, and don't have family in law enforcement either, but I am thankful we have those who are willing to put their lives on the line EVERYDAY for our safety.
Now.... understand I know there are some "bad cops" out there, but by and large they are a minority!
My heart goes out to a wife, children, parents and siblings who have lost Brian, but.... BLAME WILL GET US NO WHERE!
Forwarned | 7:21 a.m. June 21, 2009
The police in this instance were forewarned about the medical cause of the mans
acts yet they treated it as a criminal offense. The 911 dispatcher should have
had an ambulance dispatched and police as assistants for the ambulance crew.
Treating a medical problem of an individual as a criminal act is unwarranted. It
may not have made a difference in the mans survival but it should never been
treated like a criminal response by the police. Responding to a crime is one
thing, but responding to a known emergency medical situation is another. There
is no excuse for the actions of the police and 911 in this situation.
I Agree... | 7:36 a.m. June 21, 2009
@c'mon people - I have been a law enforcement officer in the state of Utah
for more than 17 years. I thank you for your post. I have less than 3 years
until I can retire. I consider myself a good officer with good judgement and
restraint. But I must say, I will not stay any longer than 20 years partially
because I am tired of being perceived as the 'bad guy'. Every day I
go to work I do so KNOWING and ACCEPTING that may be my last day. Many will say
that each day may be their last too but I am talking about an intentional act of
murder by a human being, not a traffic or industrial accident. An act that my
occupation exposes me to daily. Then, to hear people second guess an officer
for a split second judgement really makes me angry. If confronted with a naked
man acting crazy and fearing for their safety, I wonder how many of those who
are quick to judge would not utilize the Taser if it were in their hand? These
officers did what was necessary and malice was not in their heart when they
Tazed him. Period.
One more thing... | 7:41 a.m. June 21, 2009
I previously mentioned under the post by "I Agree..." that I am
currently a law enforcement officer and have been for 17 years.
To address a post by ANNONYMOUS "The other alternative is not to use tasers in non deadly situations."
You can be sure that if it is indeed a "deadly situation" the Taser will most certainly NOT be an option. By definition a "deadly situation" is one likely to produce death to the officer or another person. At that point, a deadly situation is met with deadly force, not a Taser.
To address a post by ANNONYMOUS "The other alternative is not to use tasers in non deadly situations."
You can be sure that if it is indeed a "deadly situation" the Taser will most certainly NOT be an option. By definition a "deadly situation" is one likely to produce death to the officer or another person. At that point, a deadly situation is met with deadly force, not a Taser.
Anonymous | 8:49 a.m. June 21, 2009
Everybody calls the police when there is an emergency. Even the paramedics
wouldn't have responded without the police there. Maybe the police, in
order to better protect themselves, should only respond to criminal matters and
leave the rest of our problems to ourselves to work out. Obviously, we
don't want to support a small town officer in the middle of no where trying
to handle a man that a psychiatrist in a hostpital would have ordered sedated.
I for one support him in doing the best he could. I don't believe for one
second he responded there hoping to hurt a crazy guy.
RE: Forewarned | 9:03 a.m. June 21, 2009
Although an ambulance to the scene may have been a good idea, there is no way
EMTs or even a trained psychiatrist were going to treat this guy in the
condition he was in until he had been subdued. It would be foolish and goes
against what they are trained to do.
Re: Jeff | 9:42 a.m. June 21, 2009
Really? It's documented? Show me research and documentation by someone
other than the ACLU and Amnesty International. Even Amnesty International
admits that the majority of deaths they attribute to having taser involvement
are primarily caused by drugs. So please, show us all this
"documentation" you claim exists. In reality, they have conducted
numerous studies that show the taser doesn't cause deaths, google NIJ and
taser. The amps (the thing that can affect your heart) from a taser are .0021
amps, a 9 volt battery has far more than that. 50000 volts sounds like a lot
until you learn that a static shock from touching a door knob can have 35000
volts.
say what? | 11:55 a.m. June 21, 2009
Uhhh...
A man pulls off all his clothes and runs into traffic.
Lets see.... Should I call 911,
Police or try to get him dressed?
You guessed right- The police.
A man pulls off all his clothes and runs into traffic.
Lets see.... Should I call 911,
Police or try to get him dressed?
You guessed right- The police.
Let's be reasonable | 12:53 p.m. June 21, 2009
It seems that some people, especially police officers, are responding to the
concern here as if people are calling for the policeman involved to be charged
or fired. I don't think people who are concerned about people dying after
being tased want so much to punish the police as they want the policies for
taser use to be clarified and perhaps restricted.
The fact is that this man died immediately after being tased, and this is not an isolated incident. Tasers are obviously dangerous as they send shock through the body that takes you off your feet screaming in pain. I don't think that EVER happens when you touch a door knob. I think the police should stop taking the questions surrounding tasers as a personal affront and get on board with trying to make sure that people do not die in non-deadly situations, which obviously the police felt this situation was because they did not shoot this man. Let's call for dispassionate studies and tight policies regarding taser use.
The fact is that this man died immediately after being tased, and this is not an isolated incident. Tasers are obviously dangerous as they send shock through the body that takes you off your feet screaming in pain. I don't think that EVER happens when you touch a door knob. I think the police should stop taking the questions surrounding tasers as a personal affront and get on board with trying to make sure that people do not die in non-deadly situations, which obviously the police felt this situation was because they did not shoot this man. Let's call for dispassionate studies and tight policies regarding taser use.
CB | 1:38 p.m. June 21, 2009
If this person had run out into traffic and cause a collision that took, not
only his life, but the life of others what would we be saying about the police
now?
I'm sure a death like this causes those using tasers to evaluate their policies.
I'm sure a death like this causes those using tasers to evaluate their policies.
Silva | 1:53 p.m. June 21, 2009
So the police officer had excited delirium? That explains it.
It seems other news outlets said the other officers after arriving discussed how they could make the tasering look warranted. So which is it?
It seems other news outlets said the other officers after arriving discussed how they could make the tasering look warranted. So which is it?
A Chick in Texas | 3:06 p.m. June 21, 2009
I think this article is very interesting and would like to follow Mash's
research. That being said I believe the Officer used restraint and the least
violent form to apprehend the suspect. We have had several dTaser deaths in
Texas also. yes most had sometype of drug related mental illness or legal meds
for it in thier system. I have MS and take many drugs that might cause changes
within my body and make me more likely to die if tased. The Police are in a bad
situation and trying to be Humane. I support them fully. I also know more test
need to be made on Tasers. I send my prayers and sympathy to this mans family.
If the Wife who witnessed it believes her hubby was a danger to himself as the
tapes show, then she too knows that the Officer only meant to help her hubby.
Prayers to both sides are all that are needed. I have felt a taser shot as a job
requirement and knew to be off my meds for a week before. The full body shield
used in prisons hurts worse no deaths no drugs in system. Wonder if this proves
anything?
Twice | 3:12 p.m. June 21, 2009
Let's not forget that Mr. Cardall took 50,000 volts -- twice. The first was
not justified; but even if we pretend it was, nobody can claim the second was
justified. It was the second shock that killed him, not "excited
delirium." Hit a guy with 50,000 volts, stunning him and knocking him down,
then finish him with another 50,000.
Re: Let's be reasonable | 3:13 p.m. June 21, 2009
Fair enough. How about in an effort to be reasonable, all the people like
yourself who are calling for changes actually do a little research on what you
are talking about. Did you ever consider that people who have educated
themselves on the topic feel a bit like Galileo must have felt trying to
convince the general populace that the sun did not revolve around the earth.
Now I'm not comparing myself to Galileo, but I am comparing most of the
hysterical population to the uneducated masses he dealt with. Study up, then
maybe we can all have a reasonable discussion.
Judy | 3:48 p.m. June 21, 2009
I listened to the video of the police officers on the scene they tried to treat
this man as if he could understand their demands. The police training should be
changed to approach a mental patient with calm and care putting the victim,s
welfare first rather than the police officers. What happened to the ole serve
and defend. It,s more like protect ourselves and to heck with everyone else.
Anonymous | 3:58 p.m. June 21, 2009
I remember when 'excited delirium' was an epidemic in Los Angeles. It
occurred mainly among the minority population. It could happen.
RE: Twice | 3:12 p.m. June 21, 2 | 4:21 p.m. June 21, 2009
@Twice: "The first was not justified; but even if we pretend it was, nobody
can claim the second was justified. It was the second shock that killed him, not
"excited delirium.""
I wasn't there, were you? I say that because you speak as if you were there and you are stating fact. Tell me, how is it you know the first was not justified? And, the second? Did you conduct an autopsy on Mr. Cardall to state your conclusion that it was the second shock that killed him? Please support your claims. I would love to hear them.
In your perfect little world, have you ever had to go face to face with a person whom you cannot reason with and it was your job to take that person into custody for their safety and yours and to do so without you getting injured as well? I'm guessing you haven't. You would have called the police to deal with such a problem, so don't second guess them unless you are willing to put yourself in the exact same position. Done.
I wasn't there, were you? I say that because you speak as if you were there and you are stating fact. Tell me, how is it you know the first was not justified? And, the second? Did you conduct an autopsy on Mr. Cardall to state your conclusion that it was the second shock that killed him? Please support your claims. I would love to hear them.
In your perfect little world, have you ever had to go face to face with a person whom you cannot reason with and it was your job to take that person into custody for their safety and yours and to do so without you getting injured as well? I'm guessing you haven't. You would have called the police to deal with such a problem, so don't second guess them unless you are willing to put yourself in the exact same position. Done.
re: Judy | 4:32 p.m. June 21, 2009
Oh, great idea... let's make police get degrees in psychology. That should
work well, huh? I believe the approach the police took WAS to protect this guy,
as well as anyone else who could have been harmed had he darted out into
traffic, causing an accident. Even a trained psychologist would have been
hard-pressed to do anything for this guy until he was sedated. How to you
propose this 'sedating' takes place... people CHASE the agitated,
unstable guy around.... and yes, quite possibly into traffic? Give me a
break... you make it sound like police should have had 'training' to
TALK this guy into submitting to them. The guys OWN WIFE couldn't even
talk to him, and I would think she has been through his 'episodes' in
the past. For some reason, there are some that can't see the danger the
police encountered when arriving on-scene. Seems the best option was to take
the guy down, before he injured himself, or others. For those who want to do
away with tasers.. how about we just use guns in these situations then, huh? You
know, wound the leg, shoulder, etc.?
parent of murdered child | 5:50 p.m. June 21, 2009
12 minutes is a long,agonizing horrendous death.
To Jeff> | 6:24 p.m. June 21, 2009
Guns kill to, should we take away their guns?
psych nurse | 7:26 p.m. June 21, 2009
I have never seen anyone suffering from mania, or a psychotic break drop dead.
Never. Even after a violent take down and being put into four point leather
restraints.
I have been in the business for 39 years.
Any questions?
I have been in the business for 39 years.
Any questions?
KD | 9:06 p.m. June 21, 2009
Scientists didn't believe in Rogue Waves, or monster waves until it was
caught on tape. I guess proved beyond a reasonable doubt would be a better term,
but they just wouldn't believe it.
These people that are getting Tased are totally out of control and a threat to those around them.
I agree with the officers comment that their lives are at risk 24/7 and they are not all knowing and or clairvoyant. Even people with medical conditions that cause their current state are a threat. The officers need to adopt a defensive and protective position. Help and protect others and themselves. The laws of nature are their boundaries and it is very unfortunate for those involved.
These people that are getting Tased are totally out of control and a threat to those around them.
I agree with the officers comment that their lives are at risk 24/7 and they are not all knowing and or clairvoyant. Even people with medical conditions that cause their current state are a threat. The officers need to adopt a defensive and protective position. Help and protect others and themselves. The laws of nature are their boundaries and it is very unfortunate for those involved.
rightascension | 1:06 a.m. June 22, 2009
One tase is more than enough. And besides -- didn't they have
tranquilizer darts?
StanC | 1:49 a.m. June 22, 2009
Time to stop making excuses for poor judgement.
Some police agencies in this state refuse to enforce a law and claim it will cause mistrust of officers? And this doesn't
Some police agencies in this state refuse to enforce a law and claim it will cause mistrust of officers? And this doesn't
4 years and counting | 9:33 a.m. June 22, 2009
Like one of the posters above, I too am a police officer. I enjoy helping
people. I have just over four years until I can retire. I am counting down the
days and don't plan to spend one day more than I have to. I too am tired of
constantly being second guessed by people who have all the time in the world to
evaluate a situation and have never been in the officers shoes. I have never
been sued, investigated for excessive use of force, or received a complaint for
more than someone upset over a ticket but I am still viewed as a 'bad
cop' by many because I wear a badge.
Tasers are a good tool. Although this was an unfortunate incident, Tasers save more lives than they take. Many have said the officer should have tackled Cardall or simply 'put handcuffs on him'. Those people obviously have never wrestled with a mentally ill person, let alone having to wrestle one while trying to keep them from taking your gun out of your holster. This is real life and things are not as easy as they are on TV.
Tasers are a good tool. Although this was an unfortunate incident, Tasers save more lives than they take. Many have said the officer should have tackled Cardall or simply 'put handcuffs on him'. Those people obviously have never wrestled with a mentally ill person, let alone having to wrestle one while trying to keep them from taking your gun out of your holster. This is real life and things are not as easy as they are on TV.
Longtooth | 12:06 p.m. June 22, 2009
I'm tired of hearing how dangerous being a cop is and how low the pay is,
as if that is justification for the use of excessive force or just plain
rudeness. I think the police need to remember that they work for us. No one is
forcing them to be policemen. If you're a policeman and don't like it
quit and get another job.
If we as the public can't find people willing to work for us and protect us without them using dangerous or excessive force and with out being rude, then we may have to be willing to accept force and abusive behavior, but not yet!
You need to realize that what you're hearing is outrage from your employers. We're not satisfied with your behavior. Change your attitude and behavior or quit.
If we as the public can't find people willing to work for us and protect us without them using dangerous or excessive force and with out being rude, then we may have to be willing to accept force and abusive behavior, but not yet!
You need to realize that what you're hearing is outrage from your employers. We're not satisfied with your behavior. Change your attitude and behavior or quit.
Nice | 12:24 p.m. June 22, 2009
Nice to see the wall of noise/code of silence go up from the police and their
backers. They couldn't drowned out the responses on the other stories about
Mr Cardall.
To those of you who are police who are upset with being portrayed as "Bad Guys" I ask, where were you when I was working downtown, watching as a man was handcuffed and then beaten. As soon as they realized they were seen I was arrested and thrown in jail. I was threatened with felony prosecution for asking for an attorney. No charges were filed and I was eventually allowed to go on my way. Sadly, this is not the only case, I have spoken to others who have had the saem thing happen.
The problem with police officers is that they refuse to admit that some of them should never have been issued a badge in the first place. Also they see most people as a criminal. As long as you allow some of your officers to violate laws and rights you will all be painted with the same bruch. Deal with it.
Inthe meantime will continue to distrust cops and their actions.
To those of you who are police who are upset with being portrayed as "Bad Guys" I ask, where were you when I was working downtown, watching as a man was handcuffed and then beaten. As soon as they realized they were seen I was arrested and thrown in jail. I was threatened with felony prosecution for asking for an attorney. No charges were filed and I was eventually allowed to go on my way. Sadly, this is not the only case, I have spoken to others who have had the saem thing happen.
The problem with police officers is that they refuse to admit that some of them should never have been issued a badge in the first place. Also they see most people as a criminal. As long as you allow some of your officers to violate laws and rights you will all be painted with the same bruch. Deal with it.
Inthe meantime will continue to distrust cops and their actions.
re: I Agree... | 7:36 a.m. | 12:47 p.m. June 22, 2009
All you cops responding on this board please answer one simple question....
Does this mean you also stand by the need for the SECOND tasing [i.e., absolutely necessary, life threatening situation, no other options available, etc.???]
Yes? or No?? please.
Does this mean you also stand by the need for the SECOND tasing [i.e., absolutely necessary, life threatening situation, no other options available, etc.???]
Yes? or No?? please.
ex cop | 2:18 p.m. June 22, 2009
For thirty years I was a cop in this state. And for none of those did I have a
Taser. I must add that I just retired in 2001. Tasers were issued then, I was
not in a divison that required their use.
Now with that said, I wish over the years that I would have had something other than a gun, a stick, of my hands.
Mental subjects sometmes can be talked down, most times however they maintain their state of mind and need to be forced. In my day this ment a good old fist fight or the use of a batton, and always required the need for extra officers. People with mental problems usually have an increased level of stregenth and a resistance to pain.
Would I have used a taeser in this incident? I don't know, I was not there and the tapes do not show physical acts by Mr. Cardall.
Would I have used one in my career? Yes many times. physical confrontation seldom has a winner. Mr. Cardall may have been beaten severly in this sitation. Better than dead ? yes. Still ridiculed? YES
Now with that said, I wish over the years that I would have had something other than a gun, a stick, of my hands.
Mental subjects sometmes can be talked down, most times however they maintain their state of mind and need to be forced. In my day this ment a good old fist fight or the use of a batton, and always required the need for extra officers. People with mental problems usually have an increased level of stregenth and a resistance to pain.
Would I have used a taeser in this incident? I don't know, I was not there and the tapes do not show physical acts by Mr. Cardall.
Would I have used one in my career? Yes many times. physical confrontation seldom has a winner. Mr. Cardall may have been beaten severly in this sitation. Better than dead ? yes. Still ridiculed? YES
to the police officers posting h | 5:41 p.m. June 24, 2009
To the police officers posting here: would you have tased Mr. Cardall a second
time, when he was on the ground and your partner/colleague was just steps away?
I think everyone appreciates good police officers who protect and serve. Thank
you. This story is news (and disturbing) because the officer tased Mr. Cardall
once, he fell like a load of bricks, accoring to a witness quoted in the
Spectrum, and while he was on the ground, moaning in pain, and after only a two
second break, was tased a second time. After that second tasing, Mr. Cardall
stopped breathing. To the officers posting here, would you have tased him a
second time, while he was on the ground? And please listen to the
officer's tape and then respond, thanks.
concerned | 5:49 p.m. June 24, 2009
I'm concerned about an officer who tases a mentally ill man on the ground.
I'm concerned especially when he stops breathing and no one seems to be
concerned but instead start talking about how to defend their actions, which is
how this article comes about. The officers say "excited delirium"
within minutes of the second taser shock which is an admission on their part
that he was dead. Why else would they say Ex De unless it was obvious that he
was dead. Oops, tasered him too long (second time) and while he's down
(trigger happy, silly me), yep, gotta come up with a reason--oh, wasn't
this one of them excited delirium situations where these drugged up criminals
die in our custody. Ok, let's put excited delirium out there on the tape
withing one minute of this guy's death. The tape is chilling.
investigators | 5:50 p.m. June 24, 2009
I am looking forward to a public hearing of the investigator's findings.
That will be an interesting day.
Officer training 2 | 2:16 a.m. July 1, 2009
It was scary. The cops had guns. This guy could have taken one of their guns
and began shooting people. Remember, his brain is frying. Who knows what is
going on in there. EMS wouldn't help until the guy was handcuffed and then
they tied his arms and legs to the stretcher. They hooked him to an EKG and it
would be beeping really fast and then almost stop and then start beeping really
fast again. That was the guys heartbeat!! It did it again and again. Does
anyone want to fight a guy like that?
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this event was unfortunate for sure.