Deseret News | 2nd man in relics case kills himself

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2nd man in relics case kills himself

Heavy handed lawmen | 5:49 p.m. June 19, 2009

have all this to think about....a "few old pots" vs. the lives of two good men. We are out of focus in this country in so many ways. The shock of having to face felony charges by the good doctor was more than he could take...for a "few old pots" left as worthless by a primitive people who moved out of a forsaken land. Our sympathies to the Redd family and others who have thad their lives turned around by federal marshalls...for a "few Old pots."

Feds to blame | 6:16 p.m. June 19, 2009

Federal law enforcement tends to take a particularly callous, heartless approach to its work.

They need to be held accountable for their outcomes--just as they hold people responsible for their actions.

We expect better from our federal officers, but they seem to feel like the public deserves less from them.

Very sad but not feds fault | 6:39 p.m. June 19, 2009

It is very sad that these two men took their lives, but blaming the feds, for charging criminals with CRIMES, is the wrong way of looking at things as well.
What a tragedy that these men committed suicide, but they should have been charged with the crimes they were charged with.
That area is filled with land that carries history of Indian ancestors that many consider sacred.
It's not the feds fault these men killed themselves. These guys probably will only have to pay a fine for what they have done, not exactly looking at "hard time" that seems impossible to get through

Comments continue below

I wonder . . . | 6:40 p.m. June 19, 2009

This is tragic, but also strange--we have enough evidenc that innocent people are found not guilty through the judicial process.

Why is it then that these two men could not face that process? There must be something more going on . . .

Jake | 8:10 p.m. June 19, 2009

These men were facing up to ten years in prison. I would call that "hard time." Yes they were accused of felonies, but are all felonies created equal? According to the law you can be convicted of a felony for finding an arrowhead on public land and taking it home with you. Illegal? Yes. But a felony?

Old Pots?? | 12:06 a.m. June 20, 2009

So am I to understand that I can come to your house and take what I want from your "old pot" cabinets and closets and its ok???
Let's face facts here.... the 24 are thieves-- they stole artifacts for you and me as citizens of the USA.
Two have committed suicide because in fact they were cowards as well as thieves.
Someone once said "THOU SHALT NOT STEAL". Does that sound familiar???
One of the organized religions in this area goes a little further and says "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers and magistrates, IN OBEYING, HONORING, AND SUSTAINING THE LAW."
What part of sustaining the law don't you Southern Utah folks understand????

Ken | 1:09 a.m. June 20, 2009

It might be easier to feel sympathy for the alleged felons if they were, as Jake claims, just picking up an occasional arrowhead. But he conveniently ignores the fact that they were selling their plunder for hundreds and thousands of dollars.

Anonymous | 2:10 a.m. June 20, 2009

These two men broke the law. Period. It's sad that they chose to end their own lives, but stop blaming the government for the criminal behavior of these men.

If you don't like our laws, leave our country. Period.

concerned reader | 4:09 a.m. June 20, 2009

Something really fishy going on... I think they should deeply investigate Holder.

Logical1 | 6:01 a.m. June 20, 2009

1) If it was a felony to jaywalk, I wouldn't ever jaywalk. If I thought the punishment didn't fit the crime, I would do all I could to change the law, but I wouldn't jaywalk. The "law isn't fair" is not an excuse when they all knew of the consequences.
2) Same thing for the Feds. If their arrests were deemed excessive, then they should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
3) The laws should be enforced both ways. If the laws regarding the taking of "some old pots" are too severe, work to change them. To me, they seem fair though, but I only have one vote.

JMT | 6:10 a.m. June 20, 2009

Very collectivist views on this subject. A little communism goes a long way.

Have you ever been pulled over by a cop? For the most part we all have. One version, the most common one, the office walks up, asks for drivers license, registration, etc. Normal, no fuss and you get a ticket.

I once got pulled over for speeding on I-15 by an off duty SL City SWAT team member. He drug me from the car, slammed me on the hood, threatened to arrest me, made we wait 30 minutes, etc and once a regular Highway Patrolman showed up left, ranting like some Hollywood moron. The Highway Patrolman rolled his eyes, apologized for me having to deal with an idiot and asked me to not drive so fast.

When two people kill themselves for "stealing" from my collectivist/communist buddies, worth a $1,000 I can only guess we have some idiot cops and prosecutors acting out some movie lines. And some big prosecutor essentially trying to get noticed by the big wig national folks, playing up to his collectivist/communist friends of Washington DC.

This is SSSSOOOOOOOOOOOOO over the top! Someone should be fired!

Anonymous | 6:39 a.m. June 20, 2009

I wonder if Ken Salazar will continue to show up at press conferences in his silly hat and string tie. Perhaps he'll finally realize that charging someone with violating a federal law is a very serious matter.

There is a truer story here | 7:38 a.m. June 20, 2009

some are druggies, some have made a profession out this, some have given into lust and greed. But to say old pots and forsaken land...to cover others sin is a sin as i understand it. these people show no remorse what so ever in throwing the book at the indeginous and that is verifyable on record. There are natives who sitting in a cell whereas another was let to walk because of a name. Notice how they down play the contribution of the Native American while even admonishing these CRIMINALS AS some kind of western heroes or saints...well in the game of criminality in America on American soil for which my forefathers died...if you play you pay..this isn't about arrowheads just read the affadavit...the community is one with a very intricate grapevine through relationships ...many of these people were quick to display and brag about their finds. If there were any in the community through relation or knowledge they should have admonished what the church leaders do every sunday ..do what is right ..and the consequences are following..so don't make me divert the truth from my family. We live and know!!

Suicides? | 7:49 a.m. June 20, 2009

The report leaves a lot of questions in my mind if this man and the doctor were suicides or murder to keep them from exposing others involved in the black market.

This is new suicide is like saying a man stabbed himself to death with 20 strokes of a knife. I can't believe a person can sit and shoot themselves many times.

It sounds like this story is more far reaching than the 24 arrested and a clean up crew is eliminating any exposure of contacts up the line. While Feds were concentrating on the immediate sources and distributors, others are making sure they remain anonymous.

Suspicious | 7:51 a.m. June 20, 2009

Seems more like a curse...

CJ | 7:54 a.m. June 20, 2009

If you have ever been involved in the court system in any way you know that you get victimized first by the other side and then you get pillaged by your lawyer.You had better have 50 to 100 thousand dollars on hand in order to get justice, otherwise you will lose. The fact is , you lose no matter what happens. No wonder people commit suicide rather than go through possible jail terms, financial ruin, or both.
Another thing you will find out quickly is how goofy the judges we have in Utah can be, some of their decisions are so off the wall it is like going to Vegas and spinning the roulette wheel to decide the outcome of your case. I understand how these two men feel, it is tragic that our system is what it is.

Re Old Pots?? 12:06 am | 8:01 a.m. June 20, 2009

I'm glad you're in favor of the police state ideal. I can't wait until the heavy hand of the law comes down on you. Don't worry, though. We'll be standing by shouting back to your calls of mercy that you need to "HONOR, OBEY, AND SUSTAIN THE LAW."

Joseph | 8:23 a.m. June 20, 2009

Why do you simple minded people have to quote silly scripture...

Laws are MADE UP! By people. There is no equivalency to gravity here people.

This stuff is never worth a persons life. Back when the original owners, the Indians, had it they discarded it for being junk. Now just because someone says it is sacred and valuable it changes into gold? Wrong

We need the feds to stay the heck out of Utah.

Constitution | 8:31 a.m. June 20, 2009

The Federal government can only own and control D.C. area, Post offices, post roads, and military bases and buildings. (See Constitution article 1 section 8) So who broke the law first? Why is there no outrage and punishment against "federal ownership of lands" in the first place? Why aren't the Feds being stormed by "law enforcement"? Constitutionally the feds can't own or control the land within a state's borders. Teddy Roosevelt who championed this "law" in 1906 that people have so-called broken and the congress at the time defied the constitution by passing the law in the first place.

Cats | 8:57 a.m. June 20, 2009

To Old Pots?...VERY CALLOUS. And, you don't KNOW that these are criminals. We haven't seen the evidence yet.

I don't believe in breaking the law and those who have, should be prosecuted. However, after learning more information, I'm beginning to believe this might be a case of entrapment. Also, I am hearing that the evidence isn't that strong. Time will tell, but this "agent" was going around the area offering unbelievably high prices for artifacts--people just started going through their cabinets and pulling out anything they had to sell. Much of this stuff came off private property which is legal.

The Feds have used way excessive force. They held Mrs. Redd in handcuffs in her house for hours and then took her and her husband in seperate cages to Moab. Suspects were verbally abused and terrorized by having guns pointed at them when they offered no resistance.

I really think that Salazar used this as a chance to grandstand...and I also think the overzealous Feds have SOME responsibility in the suicides of two men. I hope they think really hard about it.

Cleetorn | 8:57 a.m. June 20, 2009

So many of you poeple just don't seem to grasp the gravity of this situation. These criminals didn't just pick up an arrowhead off the ground. They didn't just find some old pots behind some bush out in the middle of nowhere. And the things they stole didn't come from their own property. They went to KNOWN Native American burial sites and living areas and systematically dug them up and plundered stuff that didn't belong to them. They destroyed a delicate historical record and defiled sacred grounds in the name of "family fun" and a personal profit.

It is unfortunate that these men have taken the coward's way out forcing their families to bear the shame and humilitation that their drastic measures will exact. It's unfathomable to imagine that they had no idea of the possible consequences of their criminal actions - especially when one was convicted a decade ago on the same charges. When you do something wrong, there's always a chance of being caught. They, along with all the rest, thought it was worth the risk. As always, hindsight is 20-20.

To: "few old pots" | 8:59 a.m. June 20, 2009

Ummm...Your logic is ignorant and foolish. WHat in the world gives those 24 people the right to steal. The post at 12:06 said it perfectly... "THou shalt not steal." I do feel bad for the family, but these men broke the law and the pansy republican senators wanted to placate the masses by investigating the CRIME. The reason why they committed suicide is because they broke the law and they knew it. They did not want to face the consequences. The way it was carried out by law enforcement was right and just.

Man-made laws | 9:11 a.m. June 20, 2009

We should obey the laws and in the same token, maybe we should examine some of the consequences of the laws. Theft and other crimes should have its consequences, but the consequences of the law should be correctional. The consequences should give people the chance to correct and rebuild in a different direction. Many of the consequences of laws now devastate and keep people down, if not push them down further. Some of these "lesser" crimes get as much or more punishment than someone who goes out and intentionally hurts or kills someone. That's wrong!!! People are more important than "things". When is society going to realize this. When are we going to try to start loving each other and helping each other. Our consequences and attitudes do not show this. Even what used to be considered accidents have turned into horrendous lawsuits. There's a lot of overkill where there shouldn't be and a lot of underkill where there should be.

old pots | 9:16 a.m. June 20, 2009

You are ignorant of the fact that people are not outraged that these men were arrested. They are outraged at a federal government who came prepared for a war with automatic weapons and flack jackets, to arrest citizens without any violent background. Very few are questioning whether the law or the need to enforce it. Try thinking before spouting off about things you know little about.

AB | 9:22 a.m. June 20, 2009

I agree with Jake... If finding an old artifact on public ground constitutes ten years of prison this is ridiculous!! For these two men to committ suicide over this is strange> Something isn't quite right with this story. I feel bad for these men and there families!

blind | 9:40 a.m. June 20, 2009

you must not know much about the federal system. First there is very little plea bargin room. Second everyone is convicted. All federal crimes have high penalty that are stipulated by congress. A plea can lower things a bit, but bottom line you are going to be made an example of.
Like everyone says these people are theifs and criminals. Doesn't matter that they look like pillers of the community. They have collected this stuff for a long time but the rules changed n now they are going to make everyone know it. So sorry for this community n families.

Shaman | 9:48 a.m. June 20, 2009

The spirits of my people are taking their revenge on those who desecrate sacred lands.

Rube | 10:02 a.m. June 20, 2009

Condolences to the Redd and Shrader families. May they gather at the grave of their loved ones and dedicate that ground as sacred. May they pray the graves will lie unmolested and undisturbed. May they ask for respect they didn't show others.

Tolman | 10:21 a.m. June 20, 2009

Our State US attorney (Tolman) has an ego big enough for the entire state. It is easy to see how this all to place with him at the top.

weezie | 10:23 a.m. June 20, 2009

These people were digging up these artifacts. They are common thieves in my book.

Accountability | 10:30 a.m. June 20, 2009

We are all accountable for our own actions. Blaming law enforcement for upholding the law is weak. If these folks did not want to do the time, they should not have done the time.

Calling the arrests of people breaking the law "heavy handed" is weak. Lame. A complete cop-out. Just a way of focusing the discussion away from the bad behavior. Typical conservative strategy. These folks have watched too much Faux News.

Show some spine, own your actions, and accept the just punishment. Blaming others is weak.

they were warned but persisted | 10:34 a.m. June 20, 2009

documentation..the local law enforcement wasn't doing anything..you people in blanding are sounding scary and let the record show you give yourself way too much credit for intelligence when you hop on these blogs and commit with stupid pious excuses giving the impression of no accountability. I say boycott the area until the right attitude prevails as you clearly state justice to only the locals not all america as you wouldn't plunder from the rest of us in the first place.and we represent an honest hard working god fearing bunch our selves. I find it amazing that you never considered the spirit of the law which you will never controll yet claim spirituality yet plunder a peoples graves with bringing up even mummies to sell..this isn't old Egypt ..the rest of us have some respect so that it why we find this quite serious. Get some counseling in your error of thinking..don't down play as two have tried and died! This is turning into a nightmare even Stephen King couldn't top..so just Stop! It trully is about attitude toward others ..DO UNTO OTHERS!

Ronnie Bray | 10:50 a.m. June 20, 2009

There are several moral and legal principles involved in these cases.

LDS Articles of Faith stipulate that just as LDS claim the right to worship in their own way, they allow the same freedom to all others.

Native Americans have a religious culture and the placing of artefacts in and around the graves of their dead kith and kin is a fundamental part of their religious practices for their dead kinfolk.

Therefore, no person professing the Mormon faith will desecrate the sacred rites of another people using such threadbare excuses as:

"It's only an old pot!"

"It's worthless!"

"Who cares about 'Them' anyway?"

Or any kind of justification that, whilst not pricking transgressors' consciences, nevertheless spews its rottenness deep into the soul, leaving the wrongdoer against God, Ma'at, stripping him of the hypocritical pretence that he "obeys, honours, and sustains the Law."

Grave-robbing is a particularly nasty thing for those Under the N&EC to engage in, because whilst presumably they honour their own dead, they desecrate the memorials and tombs of other fellow human beings without regard to the pain&hurt desecration causes.

Those that stand in Holy Places must be Holy as Eloheinu.

Logical1 | 11:47 a.m. June 20, 2009

Constitution:
Check out Article 1, Section 8, Clause 18..."Necessary and Proper".

The 1819 Supreme Court case, McCulloch vs. Maryland, intrepreted this clause as being very ambiguous and gave Congress a lot of lattitude.

You could try to get this clause overturned, or get an amendment passed which would more clearly clarify this clause, or have Marbury vs. Madison overturned, or get an amendment specifically stating there shouldn't be judicial reviews of the Constitution.

Congress used this clause and case to gain ownership of land. Congress could also change that if there was enough public interest in doing so. So Congress didn't break any laws. But the beauty of the Constitution allows for further changes or reversals. You could try to get enough votes to end Federal ownership of land.

Stupid | 1:30 p.m. June 20, 2009

The dumbest thing about this whole ordeal is that the navajo or ute or any indian alive does not derive from the anasazi. In addition anasazi means ancient enemy in navajo. These two rival tribes did not like each other, but since the anasazi people is extinct their stuff left behind becomes property to the navajo. What a joke. This is a stupid oppressive law. Also people should look what the blm do. We pay thousands of dollars for archaeologists to dig and the surplus of pots they get they break because they dont have anywherre to store them. Now tell me if that isnt being disrespectful to the anasazi people. I am positive that most of the people caught in this last raid would be breaking any pots. In fact they treasure it. More so than the archaeologists and blm workers that we currently have.

Enlightened | 1:54 p.m. June 20, 2009

Stupid: Are the Anasazi extinct? I think there are many tribes who would beg to differ such as the Hopi and many of the Pueblos in New Mexico. Your claim about what the BLM "do" is also flat out wrong and I challenge you to prove your claim beyond pointing to someone elses baseless rants about old rumors and tales. Get a clue and save your fables for another day.

Anonymous | 2:37 p.m. June 20, 2009

To the poster at 1:30pm, you have no idea of what you speak. The Hopi are the descendants of the ancients from most of what is considered Anasazi country. The name they have for their ancestors is Hisatsinom. They call themselves Hopitushinmuh, Hopi for short. The modern Hopi know about these ruins spread over such a large area. They are still sacred to them and they still visit some of them from time to time. The Hisatsinom were here way, way before the Athabascans (Navaho and Apache and other related) who are late comers of about 700-900 years ago. These areas, ruins etc. are important to them. I know so, I have been told by Hopis, a few that talk to white men. Some will not talk to any white man trying to preserve their heritage from being polluted, and continue to live as the ancients. However, even the ancient Hopis were not the first here. In depth language studies have shown Hopi dialects very similar to old languages of Ireland and the Zunis different dialect or language similar to that of old Libya. Food for thought.

Jim | 6:35 p.m. June 20, 2009

These folks have histories dating to the 1970's - they knew what they were doing is a federal offense and took the change, got caught, then cowardly took their lives to avoid taking responsibility for their actions. If any of you were to have your mother's grave robbed, the contents stolen and sold, you would demand justice for your loved one.

JMer | 6:57 p.m. June 20, 2009

Jim,
That is true, but I doubt I would care that much about someone who lived 200-300(+) years ago whether or not I were a direct descendant. The truth of this whole mess is that until the 1970's, most Native Americans (in AZ anyhow) did not care if you found something on their land, or what used to be their land. As long as it gets declared to them and these Native Americans are given the opportunity to decide whether or not you retain your findings, I think it boils down to their choice -- not that of an overly powerful Federal Government. Let's take back this country from that power-hungry Federal (that we pay for)!!!

@Ronnie Bray | 10:50 a.m. | 7:11 p.m. June 20, 2009

Freedom of religion doesn't give you carte blanche on everything you want to do, unless you consider the killing of all infidels an appropriate religious view point that should be protected as long as there are still any remaining infidels to kill.

When your religious views start to infringe upon my inalienable rights then your religious rights end. It used to be called reason and common sense.

re: Heavy handed lawmen | 9:32 p.m. June 20, 2009

I can't believe that in your eyes this is just a "few old pots." If you take time to read the afidavites, this goes way beyond a few "old pots." First, they looted graves at times to get some of these artifacts, second, they broke the law by aquiring them from public or indian lands, third, they falsified documents by signing fake authenticity papers. Fourth, they were dishonestly dealing these artifacts for thousands of dollars. It's not like they were collecting these things to preserve them. Rather than a few old pots, this looks like a "few felonies" to me.

Millerhill | 10:53 p.m. June 20, 2009

Federal laws under which we all live are always enforced locally, sometimes in opposition to local customs. Local custom in the South was to treat black people poorly, to not provide them with a public education, and to not let them use public institutions. So the federal government had to step in and let them know their local customs were unacceptable in America. Same thing here. Local customs may permit taking whatever we find--or can dig up--from the countryside, but that's not the way things are done in the rest of America. And all of the anti-government rhetoric aside, we are still in America. I am terribly sorry for the families of the guys who killed themselves. In general, people don't do that over a single incident no matter how distressing. It is sad.

mikeB | 8:02 a.m. June 23, 2009

Bad Juju! Don't mess with the ancients.

reality | 9:17 a.m. June 23, 2009

It isn't that these people were caught committing a crime, it is the fact that so many people were involved and only a few were singled out. But, come on...any one else who is being charged, it is not worth taking your life over. Taking your life affects no only you, but those you love and who love you. We pray for all of you be rational, you can get through this.

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