Deseret News | Jordan Board approves budget: no teacher raises

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Jordan Board approves budget: no teacher raises

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It's sad | 6:01 p.m. June 9, 2009

What irks me a lot is that someone cannot live in a large home high in the hills and drive several new cars while making $29,000. There's something wrong in America when only the rich live in large east-side homes and have new cars. This is just wrong. I think the rich folk should move to Kearns or Magna.

Anonymous | 6:08 p.m. June 9, 2009

the entire problem in this issue is with the union who have no interest but their own and the district administration desperate to keep their kingdoms intact.

Instead the teachers are the ones getting the shaft and they are the ones that are on the ground in the thick of things. One day some person some place will actually make a tough choice... That person will be a teacher because the union is deaf and blind and district administration is silent.

A fine way to run things dont you think?

Lets get it stright | 6:08 p.m. June 9, 2009

As Jordan School district has said all along - its all about the kids.

Comments continue below

I'm an old teacher | 6:09 p.m. June 9, 2009

I'm an old teacher. I don't get any more steps. I don't get any more lanes unless I get a doctorate. I feel bad for young teachers, and I feel bad for mid-career teachers who have to moonlight at gas stations to make ends meet.

Here's my point - JEA is the worst excuse for a UNION that anyone ever showed me. I never knew about the rally until I read this article. I'd have been there with my kids!! I even gave JEA my summer contact info just in case there was a rally. They passed around a list.

The teachers are poorly compensated because they (we) are poorly organized and poorly represented. The principals and janitors get a better package than the teachers because they have union style representation. We have a "professional association." WHATEVER.

I looked it up on Utahsright - the web site. Our secretary and our janitor make more than half the teachers at our school.

Go figure. UNION?!?!? pffft!

No Money | 11:51 p.m. June 9, 2009

What part of "there is no money" don't teachers get? Hello, there is a $25 million deficit. I'm insulted they want me to take three days off without pay so they can have the money to fund their salaries. Talk about unfair! And as a classified employee, I don't get professional development days like they do. Once again, teachers are selfish and are only concerned about their corner of the classroom.

Wendy | 3:53 a.m. June 10, 2009

Hello! Even when there was money the school board of Jordan School District and the superintendent were only interested in paying themselves so why would they care about cutting teachers saleries in a bad economy.

Better check on the school board. How much are they being paid? Does the superintendent still have his car paid for?

Teachers never received anything in the good times why should they be cut in the bad..

John | 3:55 a.m. June 10, 2009

Didn;t they take away retirement from people even in the good times? I left that district a long time ago and I am so glad I did.

A teacher | 5:56 a.m. June 10, 2009

Hello "No Money"

You're the one who obviously doesn't get it. The teachers are simply asking that everyone in the district pay the price to balance the budget. Teachers will lose 7 professional days. That's 7 days of pay. They use those days to prepare grades, prepare lesson plans, take training, set up classrooms, meet with parents, etc. This is work that they used to do on their own time - for free. Now they will have to donate that time again. I'm sure that classified employees don't take their work home with them or come in early or stay late without being compensated. They are paid on an hourly rate so they get paid for every minute that they work. Teachers are simply asking that by closing the school for three days every employee will shoulder some of the costs of the budget cuts. I'm insulted that you as a classified employee want me to take a 7 day pay cut so that you can see the budget balanced without making any sacrifice yourself.

Jordan Refugee | 6:02 a.m. June 10, 2009

I left Jordan District precisely because of the spineless negotiations by the union. Things just got worse and worse until I could no longer afford to own a home and continue to be a teacher. Making the decision to leave Jordan District was a fantastic decision that I don't regret one bit.

to anonymous | 6:12 a.m. June 10, 2009

You are wrong about the union having no interest but their own. Obviously you have never been to one of their meetings. Why do you think the union leadership voted to not accept the budget proposal of the district? Do you think it is because the union will take a pay cut? Of course not. They did it because they are looking out for the interest of the teachers who will take a pay cut. They did it because they want everyone in the district to make a sacrifice, not just balance the budget on the backs of the teachers. A small sacrifice by everyone is more fair than a large sacrifice by a few. By the way the "union" is a group of teachers who are elected by the teachers and who spend countless hours serving the teachers with no compensation because they care about the needs of teachers.

A teacher who checks e-mail | 6:17 a.m. June 10, 2009

To "I'm an old teacher"

Maybe you should check your e-mails. There were at least a half dozen informing teachers of the rally. Are you living in a cave somewhere? Don't blame the Union. Surely someone at your school new about the rally.

What is more important? | 6:22 a.m. June 10, 2009

I was in the teacher education program and I got out just for this reason. I would get my degree and and start out well below the poverty level. It doesn't make sense that educators are paid so poorly. Education of our children should have a higher priority. I applaud those teachers that stick with it for the love of teaching.
To you people who complain about teachers complaining: Get a life! I'm sure you would work at your job for less money, wouldn't you?! You would love to work in a job where you are paid less that the secretary or janitor, wouldn't you?

To old teacher | 6:30 a.m. June 10, 2009

I just looked up teacher vs. custodian salaries on Utahs Right as you suggested and found that what you said is not true. Teachers are paid less than administrators and more than custodians. What school proves your point? I couldn't find one.

Dr. J | 6:58 a.m. June 10, 2009

Again, unions are killing the industry. Labor has bullied boards into terms that now over the years are no longer sustainable. But you should know, only a fraction of the teaching force are union members, the one's who usually are, are poor professionals and usually on the cusp of release. Their union membership is the best bet for protecting their jobs. Teachers, you get the whole summer off, get in the ice cream truck and get to work.

Stop Whining | 7:26 a.m. June 10, 2009

I thought teachers were in it for the kids, not the money? Hmmm.

Interesting | 7:31 a.m. June 10, 2009

I find it interesting that the teachers are barely scraping by when the administrators are making in excess of 6 figures per year. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it the Admin who decides how to divide up the District's money?

cb | 7:48 a.m. June 10, 2009

Pay raises should be bases on teaching ability not what advanced degree or time on job a teacher has. There are many bad teachers with advanced degrees and tenure that cannot be fired. The best way to pay teachers more is increase the amount of days they work. Right now they are part time, who else gets 2 months off each year.

nottyou | 7:49 a.m. June 10, 2009

To: A teacher who checks e-mail | 6:17 a.m.

"...Surely someone at your school new about the rally."

I hope you are not teaching my children grammar or spelling.

Oh Please | 8:07 a.m. June 10, 2009

I used to be a schoolteacher. I left when I had to choose between the mortgage and groceries. I can think of no more demeaning picture than these caring, college-educated professionals who have to grovel for a dime more or less.

Pay and Play | 8:22 a.m. June 10, 2009

That's it in a nutshell - you teachers want a years' worth of pay for nine months' of work. You want to play while I pay. I work 240 days each year, and you put in 180, if it doesn't snow. How dare you demand equal pay? Step down the hall and check in with your math-teaching colleague; you are asking not for 25% more pay (3 months divided by 12 months); you're actually demanding 33% more pay (60 hours divided by 180 hours).
You knew before you entered your profession that you would never work a full year like the rest of us do. Instead, you use your union to bully us into accepting your false point of view.
Want a full year's salary? Try working a full year - just once. Until then, pipe down.

Former teacher | 8:23 a.m. June 10, 2009

Teachers are not paid for the summer time they have off. Their paychecks are spread out over 12 months.

Former teacher | 8:24 a.m. June 10, 2009

Teachers are not paid for their time off during the summer. Their paychecks are spread out over 12 months.

Concerned citizen | 8:26 a.m. June 10, 2009

I think in the present economic environment, people should feel lucky they have a job, even more lucky if they have a job with benefits. Instead of thinking about their raise, they should look at the thousands of people, many with college degrees, who do not currently have a job.

Anonymous | 8:35 a.m. June 10, 2009

Sorry guys, there have to be cuts somewhere. And they're right that raises are negotiated every year. At home in AZ, my Mom was lucky to even keep her job as a teacher - they're doing that poorly with their budget there - and my Dad took the same across-the-board pay cuts that the whole company did in order that there wouldn't be so many layoffs. Everyone's going to have to learn to do the best they can right now.

Pay issue | 8:43 a.m. June 10, 2009

To all of you bad mouthing teachers, you should know that they do not get two months of paid leave. They get none. Teachers are paid only for the days they work, and for a person with a degree the starting salary is an insult. Now to eliminate their steps and lanes is further insult, not to mention cutting the days, but in fairness the legislature cut five paid days and the districts have all had to scramble to make that up.

I would agree that Jordan didn't do a very good job. Granite had to cut more money than Jordan (total of $28 million) and was still able to give steps and lanes and restore 2 professional development days and with no tax increse. Maybe GEA is more effective than JEA.

Now let's hear about Canyons.

Teacher pay is generous enough | 8:44 a.m. June 10, 2009

Stop your whining. Teacher pay is not a secret, so if you want to get rich, you should have picked a different profession- lawyer, rock star, sports player or something like that.

Sure, you are responsible for teaching our kids. I appreciate that and hope you do a good job.

Now, compare the $30,000 starting pay for a teacher noted in the article with that of a newly commissioned military officer. It is about the same, both for college grads starting in a potential career.

Teachers work 9 months, with weekends off, in cushy classrooms.

A new 2nd Lieutenant works 12 months, and is almost certain to be sent to combat, and to deployed away from their family about half the time. They are responsible for the life and death leadership decisions for the men in their unit. They will routinely work 12-14 hour days, seven days a week. And they are risking their lives to defend us.

Teachers dont deserve higher pay than our military officers.

If you don't like the teaching pay, find another job.

Don't raise my taxes so you can live a luxury lifestyle when I don't!

RE: Stop Whining | 8:48 a.m. June 10, 2009

Wow. Really?! You don't have any sympathy for these educated professionals who spent years in college, have student loans to pay off? Look at what they majored in...Education!!! It IS about the kids for them! They've already proven that with their commitment to their education and their current positions as teachers. It's people like you that make me wonder why anybody would even attempt to teach kids. Any talk of disappointment that they will be taking yet another pay cut in a bad economy, and clueless people like you just can't resist the little dings telling them to stop whining, make it all about the kids! These people are teachers. You should show more respect. I'm sure if you showed up to work and were told that you were taking a paycut, paying more for your insurance, having seven paid days taken away from your salary, you'd be a little upset, too. Hopefully there wouldn't be somebody standing by to tell you to stop whining. Grow up!

IDjazz12 | 8:50 a.m. June 10, 2009

Teachers low wages is an argument that goes on every year and has been that way for the last twenty years.
People who went into this field in college knew it was this way but for some reason expect miracles to happen once they arrive in the work force. Nothing is going to change so if you do not like the wages go back to school in a field you know will bring home the groceries and pay the mortgage. To complain and to lobby about something that has been this way for so long and you have never had control makes no sense. If I had to complain every year to get a raise(granted I was doing a good job)the job would not be worth it.

Od Teacher | 8:55 a.m. June 10, 2009

@"checks email"

I gave the association rep my home email because I don't work during the summer. Also - we've been told that school email isn't to be used for politicking.

So, following your advice I checked my JSD account and sure enough, there was the message about the meeting. How very very foolish of the so called union to send vital messages to email addresses nobody but on-track elementary teachers are reading, especially when they've already collected summer addresses.

Chuck | 9:03 a.m. June 10, 2009

Interesting that the district administrators keep blaming the district division for financial woes. In fact their employee package sounds very much like everyone else's. Alpine S.D. will drop 6 professional days (up to a $2000 cut in pay) with no salary increase. Davis is not doing step increases and is cutting days too. Jordan isn't any different than any of the others. Apparently the district division had little if any real effect.

All that JEA did in "organizing" the blue shirt thing was get bad publicity for teachers, of which I am one.

Old Teacher | 9:11 a.m. June 10, 2009

@to old teacher

Check the salary of a first year teacher against that of a middle school lead custodian. You have to find your own names to enter. I'm pretty sure that supplying names here would make me unforgivable.) First year teachers make $29K. Lead custodians make 41K.

@cb
Teachers work 180 days a year. Assume 20 working days per month to make the math easier. That means a regular job has 240 working days each year, giving teachers 60 days less work. Those aren't paid days. They're furlough days. No work means no pay.

More days of work would be nice. Merit pay would be even better for the kids. Jordan District even has a scientifically valid and statistically reliable method of measuring teachers. It's called JPAS. If some part of pay were based on JPAS, good teachers with high scores (like me) would get more and bad teachers would be driven from the profession by market forces.

If If IF IF we had an effective union. Unhappily, elected office in the association is just a step to becoming a principal and has been for my whole career. So it goes.

Anonymous | 9:13 a.m. June 10, 2009

I'm a teacher and I'm in it for the money.

I'm also in it for the kids.

It is great to be in a profession where it doesn't have to be one or the other.

Anonymous | 9:14 a.m. June 10, 2009

The three best things about teaching...

June, July, August.

To I'm an old teacher and Others | 9:22 a.m. June 10, 2009

Check the hourly rates for teachers vs. custodians/secretaries. Teachers work 180 days for their salary - most custodians and secretaries work 245 days. Hourly rate is the only fair comparison. And they DON'T get paid for every hour worked. As a school secretary, I kept track of time I worked outside my allocated 8 hrs. a day. In 1 year I "donated" over 165 hrs. to my school. I know how many hours teachers put in that they are not paid, but they are not the only ones doing it. Good luck to all in this difficult time. Everyone is feeling it.

real issue | 9:25 a.m. June 10, 2009

The big problem in Jordan is not the fact that there is no raise, its that the union has let the cost of benefits skyrocket. Other districts in the state have it set up so that teachers pay nothing out of poket for their benefits. In Jordan I am paying over $500 a month for "benefits". I would gladly take a year without a raise, if I didnt have to spend 20% of my take home pay on benefits.
Pay and play, your comments are sad. Teaching kids (especially teenagers that are non responsive to most forms of discipline, thanks to permissive parenting) is one of the most taxing jobs. It takes so much emotionally, physically, and mentally that over paid people like you couldnt hack it for 2 months let alone 9. Teachers earn that break and need it to do their best job with YOUR kids.

Jobs | 9:28 a.m. June 10, 2009

At a time when jobs are tough and people are being laid off in education, you better appreciate having a job. A pay increase may result in "It's Sad" not having a job at all. You knew what you were going to make when you took the job and now there is not the money to make more. Appreciate what you have and not what you want. The cry of UEA used to be Utah students deserve more. That statement by the UEA has never been further from the truth. They should have said Utah teachers demand more.

Anonymous | 9:29 a.m. June 10, 2009

Pay and play 8:23 a.m.,

Teachers work "only 180 days a year?" What universe do you live in? I'll put in 3-4 hours of prep for next year today, when I'm technically "off the clock."

How much paid vacation time do you get out of your 240 days? We get NONE.

I worked in industry before becoming an AP history teacher. Do you want the real truth? I work much harder and longer than I did in industry. Teaching is a job you can't walk away from for a few hours during the school year. I read and prep 2-3 hours a day outside of contract time during the school year. There are also meetings and classes required of us during the summer. You can't really set teaching aside and work a summer job. The psychological demands and stress are enormous. How many teenagers have you talked out of committing suicide? How many troubled teens have you had to counsel? Do you want to put a monetary value on that?

Please think before you criticize.

barbara | 9:48 a.m. June 10, 2009

Call me silly, but I wouldn't spend every day in a classroom full of kids if you paid me a million dollars. I applaud anyone who is willing, at any rate of pay, to prepare, execute and follow up on assignments (reading, marking, grading). I have visited many of their classrooms and cringed at some of the raw materials (kids) and cantankerous factions (parents) that pass through their doors. Sure, there are some bad teachers, just as there are bad congressmen, but by and large, I believe that teachers are people of high hope and positive outlook. As for earnings, too bad teaching isn't a spectator sport.

Mike | 10:04 a.m. June 10, 2009

I love America. Where else can you make illogical, emotional, and asinine comments and the worst that happens is you make yourself look foolish. I take that back. The worst that can happen is someone might actually believe you.

To those who deride the association/union for looking out
for their members - Is that not their purpose?

To those who complain that teachers "only" work 180
days a year and have a cushy class room. Why not join the teaching profession and take advantage of the great perks?

Let's all get over ourselves, get on with doing what ever
our jobs are and just be more civil.

have a nice day

Obvious | 10:13 a.m. June 10, 2009

Wow. The economy is the tank. Washington has put us all into such a finacial mess for the future Utahian's across the board get paid less then other states and we are complaining about it all. You have to love this Country. As someone who works in government (state) There are no lane changes, steps or anything else. My pay scale has not gone up (minus small COLAs) in over 7 years. The reality is teachers government in this state are not highly valued (although what governor huntsman gave teachers was a heck of alot more than he gave any of his state employees) I guess what I am saying is please realize that complaining will not solve your problem as your problem is all of our problem and from all appearances it is only going to get worse. I would tell you to get out and get another job but where. It is not like you could go to Chrysler or GM right. I guess if you cry loud enough President Obama could give you a bailout and then you could educate the next generation to pay even more interest on our national debt.

durango | 10:17 a.m. June 10, 2009

What about the unemployed individual who is now looking at a 30% tax increase to fund this stupid change in the school district. I lost my 401K match and pay increases 2 years ago and now have lost my job, how will I pay for this tax increase. We should be mad as heck for what the school district has done and we should be fighting with the district about this proposed tax increase not the teachers and their raise!!!!

Old Teacher | 10:24 a.m. June 10, 2009

To the secretary - I'm not begrudging you your days, or your wage. I'm saying that you guys negotiate better than the teachers. A lead secretary makes almost $22 an hour. A first year teacher makes just over $20. Hourly rates have a lot to do with a person's level of education and experience in any industry. Experience wins.

To "real issue" - JSD as a whole decided years ago to put benefit increases into the gross salary and then take them back out as contributions so that each employee would receive better social security benefits at retirement. Most of the other districts, (presumably because their employees don't understand algebra or taxes) lump it all together, and pay each employee less. A Master's Degree in Jordan has the second highest career earnings in the state. (I can't remember who beats us.)

The real issue is that there's a 25 million dollar short fall, and EVERY teacher, but not every principal, secretary or custodian is going to lose several days of work.

Like I said, I'm an old teacher. For me, seven days of furlough is a $2100+ pay cut. That's something.

Anonymous | 10:28 a.m. June 10, 2009

The thing people should see is that while there is a $25 million deficit, the superintendant is currently making just under $200,000 per year. This is ridiculous. The top 50 paid are making over $85,000 per year and they are all administrative people who don't even meet with the kids.
I also think the union is completely ridiculous. They might as well not even exist, they would do the same amount of good for the teachers. The thing that needs to happen is a strike. If this school district suddenly has no teachers to teach all of the students that flock in by the thousands, I think Mr. Newbold will change his ideas about cutting all of the funding for the teachers and may take a little more away from his $198,000 per year paycheck.
The comment about how the district only has the students' interests at hand is a big lie. If they really thought like that, they would try to keep their best teachers by actually paying them what they're worth. Something needs to happen here, but I'm only a college student myself, so I can't do much. Any takers?

Nate | 10:39 a.m. June 10, 2009

It's really sad to see that no ones see the real issues. They don't have money. They have to make cuts. They cut 172 non teacher positions. They could cut 172 teacher positions and that would probably fund both Lanes and Steps. Of course class size would go up and teachers would not like that much. They could do a myriad of other things. Has the JEA come out and said what options they have been given? Have they let the teachers know about the decisions that they have made. Nope, they keep it to themselves and make decisions behind closed doors. The real problem is that no one is looking at the big picture. The big picture is that there is no money and they have to make cuts. Do you want them to freeze your pay or do you want them to cut your job or someone else that you know's job. That is the questions. I see that the teacher's Union does not know effects it's demands have on the rest of the school district. They aren't looking at the big picture. Maybe they should just let 172 teachers go... Whatdoyouthink?

Furlough days | 10:40 a.m. June 10, 2009

Employees taking furlough days only continues the problem. Furloughs are a temporary solution. I for one am glad the Jordan Board is not only looking at this year, but they are worried about next year and the year after. All indications are that the economy will be just as bad then.

teacher spouse | 10:54 a.m. June 10, 2009

Some of you people are unreal. I am married to a teacher in a year-round school. Fortunately I have a good job and her income is secondary. She is off-track at different times during the year, which is great. Those are UNPAID days off. She has furthered her education and holds a Master's Degree plus 30 additional hours and is currently working on another endorsement (she has three) in a purely altruistic manner - no additional pay as she is at the top of the pay scale.

For those who think a teacher only works on the days they are contracted, you are sorely mistaken, and without the professional development days, it will only get worse. In the past, teachers have been required to be in school four days to set up thier rooms and prepare for the year. When are they supposed to do that now?

We knew she'd never get rich teaching, but at some point it becomes ridiculous.

Clare | 11:20 a.m. June 10, 2009

I'm sick of all of this complaining. Yes, I'm bummed and irritated that I have to take a pay decrease, especially after I've worked all these years to finally make my 25 year mark. No more steps, and I deserved it, but I'm more concerned about our class sizes. We are going to have 32 second graders. Almost all of the other classes will have about 30 students in their classes also. When you have classes that big, it's like steering a huge truck. You just try to stay on course and teach to the middle. The lower students will not be able to get the attention they need. I feel for them. I'm willing to pay more taxes to keep the class sizes smaller, and I'd do this without a pay increase. If you think I'm only doing this because I'm self-serving, you are wrong. I've taken a financial hit already, but my husband and I have no children so we pay much more taxes than those who have them. All that truly matters is the children, and if you want good teachers, you need to pay them.

Markey | 11:30 a.m. June 10, 2009

To Furlough Days: How is cutting teacher pay "worrying about next year and the year after"? When other districts, like Canyons, are looking out for teachers, Jordan is slapping them in the face. I worry the best teachers will choose to work elsewhere. Jordan will not be able to attract quality teachers for my kids' classrooms.
I guess the Jordan Board is only worried about its finanical future, not the future of students.

aTeacher | 11:30 a.m. June 10, 2009

Ah, why do we seem so surprised by the problems of a State program?

Where there is no money, there is no money. We teachers should realize that. And if it's not enough to live on, then let us get a job elsewhere. We all know how much the State spends on ed, and yet it is never enough, because with State programs the amount of deadweight loss and fiscal waste is disgusting, but expected. Let us not act surprised.

When will we realize that State programs are INCENTIVIZED TO FAIL? That is the most effective way to grow: we need more tax dollars. The billions already is not enough.

Vince Merrill from the article is a great teacher, and exactly the kind that this industry is going to lose. That is good, I hope it sends the State a message: get out of education, you suck at it.

Then again, we voted them in. Our bad.
I currently teach because I like it, and because I can afford it. WHen I can't, I'll leave. I won't ask them to inflate my salary (via unions), but I can still be rational.

Let the Rich Pay the Poor | 11:31 a.m. June 10, 2009

Why not have the top 5% paid employees of Jordan District (Mr. Newbold included) agree to a 10% pay reduction and allocate that money to the newest teachers who are in the direst of straits and have the least appealing schedules. It would show commitment to educators even though it would not make everyone happy.

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