Deseret News | Reader comments: Graduation findings disputed

Reader comments
Graduation findings disputed

Anonymous | 4:54 a.m. June 9, 2009

The data is from 2006. Rates will start increasing in 2009. Students will want to graduate because Obama is president and He gives them hope.

Why? | 6:22 a.m. June 9, 2009

Why is it necessary or even desirable that every person graduate from high school? A 100% graduation rate seems like a silly, unattainable goal. No matter how fine your program is you will never be able to convince people to do what they don't want to do. Provide as fine an educational opportunity as possible and let people choose to take advantage of it or not. Some people will inevitably choose not to participate. They must be allowed to fail. That is what liberty is all about.

skeptic | 6:46 a.m. June 9, 2009

We had a neighborhood girl who didn't find out until 3:00 AM on graduation day that she was graduating from Bingham High - because she had skipped and failed so many classes - neither she nor her parents nor anybody on the planet expected her to graduate. Her parents thought it a "blessing" that she was able to walk with her classmates. Apparently, it was more of a "gift" of the district to help prop up their graduation statistics. Unfortunately, it also sent a message to her and all the other kids who knew she didn't deserve to graduate: all that work you did didn't really matter.

It is precisely shananigans like this that drove my three children who are gifted teachers out of teaching and out of Utah. Our districts are too busy trying to boost the self esteem of a bunch of kids who have never done anything to deserve self esteem. Like Bill Gates said - if you want to build their self esteem, then make them work hard to accomplish something and let them EARN it. There will be kids who will fail. Good - maybe they'll learn early that failure is an option.

Comments continue below

Parent of Public School Students | 6:52 a.m. June 9, 2009

Brenda: Unfortunately Utah public schools do not care about every public school student. If your student does not fit the mold of conformity too schools crush that student's spirit as well as kill the passion to learn. Our public schools are a bureaucracy designed to protect itself too often at the expense of students. USOE is one of the greatest offenders.

Math Education is hurting | 7:07 a.m. June 9, 2009

Just because more people are graduating, and more people are taking "higher level math" don't be fooled, what we call higher level math, has been hollowed out, it is no longer the math that it was for generations.

Easy, medium and difficult problems have given way to mostly easy and some problems of medium difficulty.

We are putting up a front, but the reality is our behind is not what it used to be, and not in a good way either.

The math education community has dropped the ball, they are not doing their jobs properly.

Word problems in Algebra are now rare, Geometry is mostly an exercise in learning facts, combined with very simple problems, no longer are there many proofs or medium or difficult problems requireing reasoning.

Our future scientists and engineers will be less able as a result. I have tried to talk to officials of my school district to ask them to improve, but the math supervisors don't see any problem. They are younger than me, and came of age after this dumbing down has occurred, but change needs to happen or we will continue to decline as a nation.

Anonymous | 7:09 a.m. June 9, 2009

The whole education system is just broken, like the Govt. Can you name me one master teacher? I sat in on my children's classes to see the quality of teaching going on. I was appalled. I went to see the admin with some concerns and was brushed off with curtness, how dare we expect them to do anything. Years and years of no accountability and throwing money at the mess equals exactly what we have.

Maybe, you can name me one master teacher in you district, maybe. Lets see how many educators pick apart my grammar, and not address the problem, it's a blog.

Anonymous | 7:43 a.m. June 9, 2009

Yes I can name hundreds of master teachers.

The system | 7:46 a.m. June 9, 2009

I would agree that the system need some work. With the limited number of teachers though it is tough to deal with the problems.

Not only does they system need work through but also does the home life of the student. Students who are not attending or performing can track much of the problem to the place in which they live. If parents would step up with the kids, much more could get done.

to Math whiners | 7:47 a.m. June 9, 2009

The comments about math crack me up. Old people always think they had it tougher than the current crowd. My kids take Geometry in 8th grade. Yes there were proofs and yes there are plenty of word problems. My generation didn't take it until 10th grade.

My son will be taking calculus in 10th or 11th grade of high school. Something we didn't do until college.

Stop whining and support your kids.

By the way I am in my mid 40's.

Besides that, how can we dumb down math when we are using the same text books 40 years later due to the lowest education funding in the nation?

HelenWheels | 7:48 a.m. June 9, 2009

I wonder if these statistics take into account those that finish their diplomas in a more...unorthodox manner. In Alpine School District (I can't speak for others) East Shore High School offers to let the kids do packets at their own pace. Sometimes (in my experience - more often than not) that pace is slower than the rest. My daughter got her diploma the September AFTER her class graduated. Is that counted? How about the kids that temporarily dropped out due to pregnancy or whatever, but got an adult HS diploma or GED the next year? I would really like to see the breakdown, and where those kids are counted.
-HW

Reality | 7:50 a.m. June 9, 2009

I work in a Utah public high school; one with a very good reputation, high AP test scores, many AP tests taken and very involved parents. There ARE master teachers at this school. There are also those teachers who simply work to get their paychecks. We know who they are, but the ability to move those teachers out is daunting. One teacher was finally moved TO ANOTHER SCHOOL IN THE DISTRICT, not out altogether. It took years of documentation of poor teaching.
Here is the problem - Administrators are former teachers who don't really know how to create a great product - a capable citizen. It's all about how do we treat the kids, how do they feel, are they having a good experience, and oh, by the way, let's keep our stats up. Put some people in high school principalships who know how to run a corporation, have more training in the competitive marketplace, and can work with those helicopter parents (hover and rescue) with too much power- leaders who stop bending to the unreasonable demands that hurt instead of help their little darlings.
Let's also adequately reward those teachers who do a good job!

Anonymous | 8:23 a.m. June 9, 2009

I think the question was asking about naming master teachers not naming teachers with masters (degrees) designed to boost pay and typically nothing else.

Belgie | 8:25 a.m. June 9, 2009

I totally agree with the poster "Why?" - why do we need to graduate every student? The insinuation that increasing HS graduation rates to 100% is going to make the US more competitive globally is ridiculous. Who is going to flip my burgers? Who is going to sweep the halls? Who is going to trim the hedges at city hall? It may sound harsh, but seriously, not every job requires a PhD and if we try to send everybody to college, we're wasting tax payer money because somebody still has to do the menial work. Let the people who aren't interested in education do the jobs that don't require any, and let's focus our time and money on those that are eager to learn.

It's not the government's job to babysit students. The best thing we can do for education is get involved as parents.

Deb | 8:33 a.m. June 9, 2009

To HelenWheels--those other alternatives are not counted in graduation rates because usually they are not graduates. Most people think that they can just go get a GED and it is the same. It is not. It is viewed differently by employers and most schools of higher education. This is a person that, for whatever reason, dropped out and then decided maybe that wasn't a good idea I can't get a job!! They GED tests for the very BASIC learning educational skills usually at a 9th grade level. As an employer, I will always go with a diplomaed individual over a GED. Don't be fooled--it is not the same.

Amen to That | 8:43 a.m. June 9, 2009

I second Reality!

Amen to Reality | 8:45 a.m. June 9, 2009

I second what Reality said!

Don | 9:03 a.m. June 9, 2009

I went to excellent public schools! Why? Because my parents and other parents in the community absolutely demanded a higher standard and only hired excellent teachers! To "to math whiners", when you took your classes is when YOU took them not "your generation".My high school prepared me and my fellow graduates(96% rate of which 90% graduated college)for college in the most complete ways possible. Yes,it cost a lot of money,but again the community demands and the support of the community created a situation where education was and still is preeminent! Your education system could be like California's where you pay unbelievable taxes but see 53% of all students FAIL to graduate! We are the parents now! Do we demand a better education for our children than what we received? Or do we have too much to do? If we do not demand the best we will not receive the best!While my sons were in school in Utah there was a laziness in the community and that was reflected in the administration. That laziness was reflected in the State Government! It still is! Politicians are scared of the Unions!Teachers are scared too!

1Observer | 9:15 a.m. June 9, 2009

To the anonymous poster at 4:54am - I hope you were being sarcastic or you are just sleep deprived. (Though I did note the capitalization of "He" as if he were deity. I know some of you feel that way.) The only thing likely to come out of the Obama administration is dumbing down the requirements so more people can "graduate" and then get a job in one of the many newly government-owned businesses in this country that will be supported by taxpayers and where there won't be any productivity or profit requirements. That environment should fit well with their new high school degree that also required little effort.

Deb you are mistaken | 9:17 a.m. June 9, 2009

The mom was talking about a "real" diploma. Students are given additional time to earn their diploma and actually "graduate" from their home school if they finish their credits over the summer. It isn't a GED.

Some students do get their GED, but many also graduate late. Better late than never! This works great for kids who were sick or had to be out of school for an extended time.

Sad sorry state | 9:23 a.m. June 9, 2009

of our high schools. Caused by many factors, including all mentioned in comments - sometimes it is poor parenting, often times it is terrible teaching, true that principals probably have the exact wrong training for the job.

But another big issue is that Utah can't determine what is CORE curriculum. Core should mean CORE, english, math, science, history. The rest MUST be placed in a "sub-core" category and students need to be given options. My son had to take fashion strategies, retailing, and two other ridiculous classes to meet his graduation requirements because they were the only "open" classes to meet the career and technical ed requirement.

If a student can read well, think critically, write well, do math at an Algebra 2 level and pass 3 history courses (American 1, 2 and World History) they should be able to choose their "other" coursework and graduate.

I couldn't support the silliness so we decided to go right to the college level and skip high school graduation. A good ACT score and a smart student and you don't need a hs diploma. Many are figuring this out and aren't willing to waste their kid's time.

Anonymous | 9:36 a.m. June 9, 2009

Yes, I can name master teachers I had in the public schools, but that was in spite of the system, not because of it. They were the precious few who cared more about kids than about the fact that their employment was forced upon the system by the unions, whether they were any good or not. No, the solution is not to throw more money at the problem. We've been doing so for decades. Guess what? Our education is still going downhill. We're not competitive anymore in the global market, most of all because our students are entitled to a good self esteem in our schools, again whether they do anything to deserve it or not. They don't know how to work for anything. The ones that do learned it from home, not from the schools, and the public schools that do well, do well because the homes around them are strong. I agree with "Don" above: it comes down to the education that parents demand and teach at home, and the education they teach their kids to demand.

justareader | 9:52 a.m. June 9, 2009

I wonder what it would be like if Mom and Dad showed some love and respect for their son or daughter as a person. Gave them encouragement and support for learning. The enjoyment and satisfaction of reading and being able to comprehend what they read. Being able to find personal pride in solving problems in,not only math but in science, simple domestic skills, being able to speak proper grammar, even write legibly. Professional teachers should be qualified to teach and instruct these skills and help young people develop the enjoyment of learning. But too many don't have the desire or enjoyment themselves. Students,teachers and PARENTS need to work in harmony to produce the NEXT generation of students, teachers and parents.

"Reality" is 100% | 10:28 a.m. June 9, 2009

correct with everything she/he says. I've been around the public school system for almost 50 yrs. and I've seen it continually go downhill. The BIGGEST PROBLEM as I see it is that there is no "division of labor", that is, they need administrators in the offices who are really SUPERVISORS, (and good ones). When a teacher reaches a certain level of incompetency, it seems to me that they "bump" them up into the principals office, or just send them to another school acrosss town. People who MANAGE the school should have a GREAT LOVE OF THE EDUCATIONAL PROCESS, not just be there to protect incompetent staff. Sure, there are goofball parents, but between them and the goofball teachers, SOMEONE needs to have the ability to sort it out. Someone who, hopefully, will do the best things for the kids, without taking sides either way.

If the public saw professional managers running the schools, I think they'd also be MUCH more likely to increase funding for schools, rather than just taking the word of UEA.

Government Education | 11:07 a.m. June 9, 2009

It's sad, but the free, public education that was started many years ago has turned into a large, inefficient beast that has so many federal and state restrictions that it can't possibly be effective in its present form. My hat goes off to those gifted, enthusiastic teachers, administrators and volunteers that are making a difference. Graduation means very little. There are two levels of graduation: 1. Receive a diploma certifying that they took and passed the correct number of credits 2. Passed the Utah Basic Skills Competency Test (UBSCT), which is a basic 10th grade assessment. They have 3 shots at it. I think that the number of graduating seniors that pass the UBSCT is around 75%. A high school diploma means very little. Kids can get into college just fine without it. My daughter just graduated from a non-accredited private school. She doesn't have a high school diploma but got into the college of her choice. She's an average student but was taught outside of the restrictions of public education and it is like night and day. It is not the teachers that cause the failure, it's the system and the UEA.

TO Reality" is 100% | 11:17 a.m. June 9, 2009

Reality is 100% is right on the money. Thank you for you comments. The UEA has done such a good job of dictating policy and protecting downright awful teachers that it's criminal. Ask a teacher what the UEA has done when they needed union backing. Nothing. They create crisis and chaos just to justify their existence. We as the public actually pay salaries of local union leaders in some cases. The board of education for the most part are union members or are controlled by the UEA. It quit being about what's best for the kids a long time ago. It's about power. Let's turn control of the schools back to the local schools and the professionals that really want to make a difference. Until we do that this downward trend will just continue.

Re: The System | 12:07 p.m. June 9, 2009

I am so sick and tired of educators saying they need more money, need to keep the great teachers they have - and then when there is a problem that is pointed out to fall back to one of two responses:

1- The brush off: the professionals know more about education and you don't need to worry your simple mind. we know the material is different and it is better for you. We know that kids need to feel good about life.

2- The parents: It is so difficult to solve the problem when the parents aren't doing thire part, by being involved. The problem starts at home.

There are particles of truth - but let's face facts, Educators have problems too. There are bad teachers and bad students and even bad parents. Bad parents are not licensed before having kids, and kids sometimes need to FAIL in order to learn the lessons of life. And throwing more money into the pot does not fix any problems. Being a teachers was never meant to make someone rich - just like any other public employee.

J | 1:34 p.m. June 9, 2009

I see too many students falling through the cracks and not graduating. They drop out. They are lost. I'm not going to assign blame here. It's a combination of life circumstances I'm sure. I'd like to see Utah have a higher graduation rate. I've noticed that with the tests they require and increased course work in Math, English, Science and foreign language it is getting harder for our students to graduate. Where have the dropouts gone? Is anyone tracking them? Does anyone care. Utah only requires a compulsory education to the age of 16. What happens from 16-18? In my area it seems that they are pushing kids out of the education system. Where are the programs for these kids. Does anyone in Utah even care?

Stunned | 1:37 p.m. June 9, 2009

I am stunned by the number of people on this list who are good teachers.

People, get off your behinds and go to work. There are children not to be left behind.

Stop complaining and get busy!

This society of whining victims of the massive bureaucracy must end. Take responsibility for something. Educate a child!

The Rock | 1:52 p.m. June 9, 2009

I live in Washington State. We spend almost $9,000 per student. With an average class size of 30 that comes to $270,000 per classroom!

I don't know what Utah spends; however, I am willing to bet that if you calculated what the budget is for a single classroom you would get a surprising sum.

I also homeschool. We spend under $300 per child each year. Our two youngest entered a local community college last year at the age of 16 and 18. The younger one is in honors and has a full tuition scholarship for next year. She is also dyslexic.

Why can't public schools make it on $9,000 a child and they produce a pathetic product, and a homeschooling family, using text books from the 1800's, takes special needs children and produce excellence?

There are many reasons.
1. No discipline in public schools. They tolerate disruptive behavior.
2. Families do not do their part. The schools cannot do it alone.
3. University students majoring in education are in the bottom 1/3rd of their classes (based on SAT scores).
4. Modern education degrees are actually worse than no degree.

Sorry, out of words!

Laurels | 4:11 p.m. June 9, 2009

Our last child just graduated from Brighton High School. All four of our children graduated from public schools in the top 10% of their classes, scored well on the ACT, applied to and were accepted by multiple universities, and received university scholarships. Two were National Merit Finalists.

They all had teachers who should have been fired. They also had teachers who were exceptional educators. We have seen and learned much during the 25 years our children attended Utah's schools.

Problems we see in Utah's public school system:
1. Limited ways to thin out weak teachers.
2. Limited ways to financially reward great teachers.
3. Parents who are not involved in their children's education. HUGE problem.
4. Reduction in academic rigor of general core classes. Our children had to take Honors and AP classes to get decent academic rigor.
5. Disruptive students who are catered to rather than booted out of school. Pushing all students to graduate from HS may not be the best answer. Providing more varied types of public education, like what other countries have done, should be considered. This may provide a better match of students' interests and be a better use of resources.

Ms. Dynamo | 5:24 p.m. June 9, 2009

Parent of Public School Students | 6:52 a.m. June 9, 2009

You are partially correct...Utah legislature and school administrators crush teachers will to educate as well!!

Bam Bam | 5:32 p.m. June 9, 2009

The Rock | 1:52 p.m. June 9, 2009

Not community college!!

You sure set high goals for your kids.

I'll bet there social skills are top notch.

That there home schoolin must be great...NOT!!

Your fooling yourself!!

$5257 per pupil | 5:39 p.m. June 9, 2009

$5257 is what the state spends per kid. At 34 kids per teacher that's $178,738 per class room per year. I'm the highest paid in my middle school building.

(Yes I am a MASTER teacher - and I was when I only had a bachelor's degree. Other states fly me around the country to make their teachers better. It's my summer job.)

Anyway, as the highest paid teacher in my building, I make about $60K per year. Add another $20K for health insurance and retirement benefits and you still only have $80K. At my rate (the most expensive) labor is about 44% of the total operating cost for my classroom.

WHERE DOES THE OTHER MONEY GO?

The answer, of course, is overhead. There's a building that has to be paid off. There are books, and electrical bills. My room has as many lights as my whole house. There's got to be some kind of huge water bill for the thousand kids at my school.

I wonder though - Is 44% labor normal, or low or high? That seems to be an important question. I bet there's a business standard ... anyone ... anyone?

re to Math whiners | 7:47 a.m. | 6:01 p.m. June 9, 2009

I don't know what district you are in, but in Davis District, where my kids go to school, we definately aren't using the same Geometry text we used 40 years ago.

40 years ago it was Moise and Downs, the book is full of proofs, In Davis now the text is by Larson. The book we use now doesn't even come close to the Moise and Downs. If you think these two texts are anywhere close to being the same, it shows your math ignorance.

Why do you defend dumbing down? Don't you know it is your own kids and your nation that is being hurt?

If you are a teacher, rather than defending what isn't defenseable, why don't you just do better? That is the way to truely be respected, not by making excuses.

Re: J and Laurels | 7:15 p.m. June 9, 2009

To J: Utah should increase it's graduation requirements-I graudated in Connecticut and cannot believe how much easier it is here. Going out on a limb (and yes I am LDS)-get rid of seminary release time-then kids could concentrate more on the academics that will make a difference in college careers.
To Laurels: Congratulations on raising such wonderful kids. You really nailed it with your comments-all very common sense and practical. You have it exactly right!!
And, yes!! There are master teachers out there who are devoted to their profession. And they are not the ones complaining about money. They do it because they love it and it shows. Please don't assume all teachers are complaining about money-we're not!! And I'm my family's main source of income!

Anonymous | 7:51 p.m. June 9, 2009

Those who say teachers should not complain about money ought to try out teaching for a few days. Its funny how many people I tell that to who respond, "No, I could never do that." But then they turn right around and say that teaching is a privilege to be enjoyed.

Former Utah Student | 10:18 p.m. June 9, 2009

I went to Utah public schools (in American Fork) until spring of my freshman year, when my family moved to Michigan. When I started school at a small, country school (less than 100 students per class), I realized how far behind Utah was in math and science. English and history were pretty competitive, but I was lost in Algebra II with only missing one week during the move. I had to have a tutor to teach me everything that I should've learned throughout the whole academic year in AF! Science was another joke in Utah-where we were barely learning chemistry or biology, Michigan was giving the choice of physics, anatomy and physiology in my sophomore year!
I agree with getting rid of the time release for seminary-let students decide how much they really want to go by having it scheduled in the morning before school like every other state in the nation. For most students, it means more when you have to sacrifice for it, instead of being able to goof off for an hour of school time. No, I am not saying they all goof off, but it makes it easier to.

Utah Educators doing Poor | 6:33 a.m. June 10, 2009

There are advertisements on the radio about what is right with Utah education. Apparently a higher percentage of Utah students take higher math in high school than in any other state.

What that advertisement doesn't say is that higher math education in Utah is gutted.

It has gone down hill compared what it used to be. I wish the attitude of the education community was to improve rather than call those calling for reform whiners.

That would be the surest way to get respect, not by attacking the messenger.

Seminary | 1:34 p.m. June 10, 2009

Before everyone jumps on the bandwagon to do away with release-time Seminary, consider the impact it will have on current class sizes in Utah high schools. According to my kids' high school administrators, released-time Seminary houses anywhere from 10% to 15% of the students during any given period during the day. As a result, class sizes are smaller.

I'm not saying release-time Seminary should no longer be an option. What I am saying is that this suggestion along with all of its impacts should be carefully analyzed before any decisions are made.

It may be a moot issue, however, with the increased graduation requirements that are effective for the class of 2011. Many students will have to resort to early-morning and after-school Seminary in order to fulfill their graduation requirements.

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