Deseret News | Reader comments: Gay-rights activist calls for D.C. march

Reader comments
Gay-rights activist calls for D.C. march

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Thank you again | 4:11 a.m. June 8, 2009

PS - I live outside the US and we are more and more being barraged by offensive behavior and content, especially in our schools, in the vein of 'freedom', and then being forced to accept it. If you want to engage in thoughtful debate, that is fine, but vulgarity and violence will get you nowhere (see Obama's speech to the Muslim world last week).

Joanne Mills | 6:36 a.m. June 8, 2009

Cleve Jones misstates his cause. Seeking gay marriages in all 50 states is not akin to the blacks fight for civil rights or equal protection under the law. Whether you believe in God or not, the institution of marriage was a law given by Him, for the purposes of companionship and procreation, between a man and a woman. The bible couldn't make it any clearer - there is no ambiguity requiring a creative interpretation of God's word to clarify what He meant. I believe gays are entitled to the legal and financial protections of "civil unions", but they can't elevate their status to a constitutionally gauranteed right when it simply isn't there. If you need some context to aid your interpretation of "equal protection" you need look no further than our founding fathers who made it clear that the only way our republic would survive was if America had enough "public virtue" - which they defined as "religion and morality". Neither religion nor morality can support the notion of 2 males or 2 females having a long term conugal relationship. God simply doesn't sanction it.

Denise Druce | 7:31 a.m. June 8, 2009

How sad for me, also a Christian, to see so many of us not getting the most important message of Jesus Christ...Love God, and Love One Another. It will take me a lifetime to learn how to do that better. I'm raising my children to be FOR something...like love, compassion, tolerance, equality, and an appreciation for the diversity God has given us. I feel that's a healthier way to live than to spend time, money and energy being AGAINST something or someone who is different than me. It's the 21st century, we all drink out of the same drinking fountains now. Live and let live.

Comments continue below

I hate to | 7:44 a.m. June 8, 2009

rain on your parade, but this rally doesn't really help your cause. This event could have been held anywhere in the US, but it specifically held in SLC as an attack on the LDS church. Cleve even hinted to that in his statement in the story. It's one thing to have a cause to fight for, but when a group attacks another to prove their point then it has gone overboard. This event revealed the true hate that these people have towards those who value traditional marriage. People of all religions value traditional mariages, not just the LDS church. Not everything in life is fair. Equal rights for everybody for every little thing that exsists on this planet is just not going to happen. Even if you did win your war, then what. With the hate built up inside, another trumped up cause will be invented and we will have to put up with more marches and parades as you try and prove some other forced point of view. Come on, do something constructive with your lives.

i marched | 7:49 a.m. June 8, 2009

because of the boy who was murdered in wyoming a few years back. i'm not gay and i don't play but i find these people are more tolerant and accepting of others than the christians who have started war after war on one another.i can't condone the hate toward this group or any group. peace!

Get a grip! | 7:51 a.m. June 8, 2009

To Denise Druce - you know nothing about religion or the Savior if you stand behind what you said. He was for "love, compassion and charity, but he was not accepting of immoral actions like homosexuality. Love sinner despise the sin. All of you that base your arguments on tolerance and equality need to realize that doesn't fit all situations especially when it comes to immorality. What are you going to support next Pedophilia? Get a grip on whatever your religious beliefs are!

Joe | 7:56 a.m. June 8, 2009

I saw the march... It was raining because God was crying... What an ugly thing.

Straight Pride | 7:56 a.m. June 8, 2009

I'm holding out for the straight pride parade. I hope I don't offend anyone with that statement but I can't help it... I was born that way.

Seriously though, I don't have a problem with civil unions but why must they parade around like a bunch of deviants? I doesn't do anything for their cause.

Wake Up | 7:59 a.m. June 8, 2009

The gay rights movement is a cancer that is eating away at the very foundation of our society. If we don't fight against it our society will die. We are being destroyed from the inside out. Hopefully there are enough decent people left in this country to stop this.

Barbara T. | 8:01 a.m. June 8, 2009

Denise - Would you "tolerate" having your children taught about homosexual practices in their classroom? Would you "tolerate" your nextdoor neighbor viewing child porn on their front porch and showing it your kids? Why not? At what point do you stand up and say something is wrong? At what point do you defend your family?

sdmom | 8:04 a.m. June 8, 2009

And they wonder why they aren't respected.

re: Denise | 8:06 a.m. June 8, 2009

I believe you are right to an extent. Love is the key. Both sides of the argument could use more of it, I know I could. The way I see it the First Great Commandment was to Love God with all your heart, might, mind and strength. The second is like unto it Love your neighbor as yourself. A great man once said "the first commandment is first for a reason...true the second commandment is like unto the first but it isn't the first commandment...We have a lot of people who partially keep the second commandment, more than truly keep the first...The first commandment sets the high tone, the divine standards, if it were not so then as the scriptures say everyman walketh in his own way and he does his own thing. That first commandment is the linchpin for everything else." More respect and tolerance is needed on both sides but if you are a bible believing individual you should not wonder where God stands with respect to gay marriage. We can love without giving away everything that we hold dear.

Kay | 8:10 a.m. June 8, 2009

What about our rights - the rights of the married? Why should we have to give up our rights so that the institution we entered into can be redefined? Hey, I have a right to be a doctor but I don't want to follow the rules to become one so redefine it for me. What will become of the profession of doctors? It will become diluted and unattractive so that others will not want to become a doctor. We step on a slippery slope when we start redefining things.

Anonymous | 8:22 a.m. June 8, 2009

If your religion lets you look down upon these gay people without love and compassion, it cannot be what God would want. Those are his children and you are sinners just like them. There is something wrong with those who think they are better Americans and deserve more privileges than other Americans.

WBM5 | 8:27 a.m. June 8, 2009

They have the same right we do. to marry someone of the opposite sex. The law does not say we have the right to marry someone we love. There is a difference. The law doesn't care about emotions.

Stop asking for special treatment!

Anonymous | 8:31 a.m. June 8, 2009

I don't understand... this article came out yesterday, I posted a couple of times... why did all the comments change???

Haters beware: | 8:33 a.m. June 8, 2009

Religious beliefs do not trump constitional rights.

Anonymous | 8:33 a.m. June 8, 2009

"By the way we already do have equal rights in all 50 states. Heterosexuals can't marry someone of the same sex either."

Yeah... and a Christian in Iran has their rights as well... just as long as they are worshiping Allah in a mosque...

Anonymous | 8:33 a.m. June 8, 2009

ahhh here you all go again, the ugliness of the religious right rears its head on the comment boards daily...

It's not only about marriage. | 8:34 a.m. June 8, 2009

In his speech Jones mentioned gay marriage, but his call to action was much wider. He was talking about broader issues such as employment discrimination, the farcical Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy, hate crimes, inheritance and social security issues, family entitlements and protections, taxation, the whole nine yards.

These are real tangible issues that impact gay and lesbian individuals, couples, and families every day. Not some hypothetical fear about what some teacher might teach some kid twenty years from now; or some abstract slippery-slope fear that religious freedoms might be lost in the distant future.

It's apparent after the last legislative session, and when Lt Governor Herbert has already gone on record saying gay rights issues have already be addressed and will be ignored in the future, that the fight for equality will have to go Federal.

If Utah gays and lesbians cannot get the most BASIC of legal protections out of committee, then this debate will inevitably either go to the courts or to Washington. If Civil Unions in Utah are off the table, then why shouldn't this go Federal?

Anonymous | 8:34 a.m. June 8, 2009

They already have equal rights. Everyone has the same opportunity to get married. No one is being restricted from getting into a monogamous, heterosexual marriage between two consenting adults, or to choose not to get married at all.

Uninspired Comments | 8:35 a.m. June 8, 2009

How disappointing...

Not one articulate argument here for Straight Only Marriage. A lot of name calling, guilty by association rhetoric and religious repression.

According to most comments on this site..
Fairness - No
Equality - No
Compassion - No
Understanding - No
Tolerance - No
Acceptance - No
Freedom - No

Mr. Jones was right, "Its unfortunate that a church and a people who experienced persecution in the past could not come to some accommodation that would allow them to maintain their faith without so vociferously seeking to deny other people their rights.

re: denise druce | 8:36 a.m. June 8, 2009

While God loves everyone, he cannot condone sinful behavior. I agree that we should teach our children to be FOR something, and you have rightly indicated the first great commandments - love God, and love your neighbor as yourself. However, the fight against sin is real, and many good christians, like yourself, are content to not fight the good fight, but just let society drift you along whereever they want to at the time. You cannot bury your head in the sand and pretend sinful behavior will just go away. Do you really believe this is about equal rights? Really?? This apathetic behavoir towards sin is what is driving America, and many other nations down the slippery slope of moral decay. Mask it behind "equality" if you want, but the truth of it is, people are becoming too comfortable justifying their behavior rather than work on conforming to christian life, which does include following Gods laws with respect to marriage and family, which, and I am not sorry to say, does not include this type of behavior. Can I love the sinner and not the sin? I believe so.

Anonymous | 8:37 a.m. June 8, 2009

"I think it is laughable when gay rights activists compare themselves to the civil rights movement. They have nothing in common. The gay rights activists want rights for an immoral choice."

You forget that the people who denied Blacks their rights did so under the assumption that Blacks where "immoral"... mark of Cain and all that.

I thought... | 8:38 a.m. June 8, 2009

that God doesn't tolerate sin in the least degree. Did I miss something there? When gays claim God's acceptance of them in their behavior, they simply invent attributes to their god that don't exist. I think that's why gays seem to gravitate to atheism or claim to be agnostics. I also find it amazing when they say, "Don't you dare use your religion to deny us our rights." I must wonder, who are you to tell me what I must use to define my morality?" I'm also totally put off by gays who make reference to LDS doctrine, history or concepts as digs. Galvanized, you say? Yes I am galvanized against the GLBT to the extent that for the first time in my life I donate money and have turned vocal... and that's just the start.

Bill Mahr | 8:47 a.m. June 8, 2009

The church laughs all the way to the bank, keep throwing money at it so you can earn your way to "heaven".

Alec Gehrke | 8:49 a.m. June 8, 2009

It was a wonderful festival. I had a great time marching with my girlfriend along side the many equal rights groups and the churches that also marched. We danced in the rain and soaked in the love.

Re: Uninspired comments | 8:52 a.m. June 8, 2009

Here we go again. This issue in NOT a LDS church vs. the Gay Parade folks. You are taking a voting issue lose that happened last fall as the only platform as which to fight against. Get with the program, the majority of folks in this nation are against gay marriage! It's really sad that this group has made it's last stand against the LDS church because they think they are leading the charge. The LDS church strongly believes in what has already been stated and nothing is going to change that. Not even marching in the city that they founded back in 1847. If you really want to gain some respect for your cause, go march against the Catholic's and other religions that helped to vote against Prop 8.

Love and Respect | 8:53 a.m. June 8, 2009

Of course we all make mistakes in life. We then learn from them, cease and desist, and do better the next time (hopefully). So although all have sinned, in a society of progress we should look for ways to pull ourselves up and out of the depravity rather than for ways to feel more comfortable in it so that we can continue our downward plunge. Acceptance of practices that are plainly against nature just go counter to trying to live more "green" and to help nature. Let's support nature and lift ourselves to higher ground, not go against nature and fall to new lows of depravity. We need to show some tough love by repealing every attempt to legalize such actions. Like any good parent, we need to know when to say no and not let the tantrums thrown influence us. It is all about love, tough love, no matter how they spin it.

Chachi | 9:00 a.m. June 8, 2009

The gay rights movement apparently does not care about trying to understand the viewpoint of people that oppose them. They prefer rhetoric to real discussion of issues. They want to stigmatize anyone opposed to gay marriage as a hater, not address our concerns.

I'm Not A Judge... | 9:00 a.m. June 8, 2009

The so-called "christians" keep talking about the "sinful behavior", but they fail to look in the mirror and see the sinful behavior that they themselves are projectiong, by being so judgemental towards people who don't subscribe to their exact beliefs. Jesus, please protect me from your followers.

The Rock | 9:00 a.m. June 8, 2009

People enter into many different kinds of relationships. These relationships include friendships, business relations, and marriage (and many others).

Marriage is a government regulated relationship. You need government permission to enter or leave a marriage.

All sexual relationships were regulated in times past. Adultery and fornication were illegal, as were sexual relations between people of the same sex. Sex was reserved for marriage.

Why was it regulated? Children!

What are the consequences of not regulating sexual relationships? In a word: Destruction!

The lives of young girls or women who became single mothers were destroyed. No decent man would marry them. Fatherless homes lead to crime and poverty. Men who breed indescrimently are also destroyed. The wreckless behavior of a US President with an intern nearly ended his Presidency.

Lives are destroyed, including the innocent lives of the children involved.

What are the consequences of not regulating homosexual relations? Those involved only destroy themselves. While comitted couples exist in the gay community, as a whole the gay community is the most permiscusious group of people known to man. Will this stop if they are allowed to marry?

Not a chance.

Gay marriage solves no problem.

Banning Gay sex would.

John DC | 9:02 a.m. June 8, 2009

You're all crazy. Do you know if the population of California voted against black people marrying whites in 1960, that it would have passed by 60 to 40%.
Things change people!
It's only a matter of time before the gay people win. Because they should be able to marry if their church will let them, or at least have civil unions.
There are about 25 million gay people in this country. I hope they win. They deserve it.
Also, I was in the military. If we kicked out all the gay people-trust me, we would not be able to fight wars.

Anonymous | 9:18 a.m. June 8, 2009

To "I marched" - how sad you said you marched because of the boy killed in Wyoming. At trial it came out it was not because he was gay but robbery. Of course the media didn't play that part up or it wouldn't have been the news or gotten the response they wanted.

I don't understand how you can be Christian and still be for the gay cause. Yes, God says love everyone. We can still love people but hate the crime. All sinners need help and need to be loved. Marriage is not a right, it is a privilege. Their choice to live a deviant life style is simply that, their choice. The more they march and cause trouble the less people like them. They already can enter into contracts and wills, etc., giving their property to each other. Marriage is between a man and a woman. They also have that right - between a man and a woman!

Gotta Love this State... | 9:23 a.m. June 8, 2009

Behold the followers of the Church of Utah and feel the Love, feel the Goodness. It's positively inspiring!

Inventing statistics | 9:23 a.m. June 8, 2009

John DC along with most gay activists invent numbers all the time to bolster their argument. 25million gays? Proof please. 60 to 40 percent against blacks in California? Proof please. Gays chased out of the military would end our ability to fight wars? Proof please. If every gay ceased to be gay what would the consequence be... pretty much nothing other than strife would lesson. If every heterosexual cease to be heterosexual what would happen? The end of the Human race. That fact helps put it all in perspective, don't you agree?

Over 10 % of states: | 9:30 a.m. June 8, 2009

Have gay marriage. It is legal in 6 states and civil unions recognized in many others.

It is happening.

Blacks and Gays... | 9:31 a.m. June 8, 2009

I am also black, and I am also heterosexual. However, I understand that my homosexual friends were born that way just as they were born with a certain color of hair or skin. When we as a people allow anyone to be persecuted for who they are as individuals, we are guilty. That is why they feel that their cause is like the Civil Rights Movement. Our people once had to fight to be treated equal. But the struggle for universal equality most not stop there.

A Man | 9:37 a.m. June 8, 2009

I was supportive of gay marriage before Prop. 8. Now, after seeing the vile hatred of pro-gay marriage groups, I have completely altered my position.

There is nothing in the Constitution on marriage. Therefore, society's definition of marriage can be voted on. Freedom of religion, freedom of speech, etc. are in the Constitution and therefore cannot be voted out.

Therefore, gay marriage is not a civil right anymore than a group of people claiming a special right to go above the speed limit on the interstate.

YEP! Gotta Love this State!!! | 9:41 a.m. June 8, 2009

I do love this state and though the amazing LDS religion isn't the only reason the gays can't advance their causes in Utah, the Mormons make this state a place I love to raise my not LDS family. I can't say enough about the good that church does in this world and the quality of life it brings to Utah people. God bless the good Mormons and Catholics and my Evangelical Church for all they do to turn away evil and improve our lives!!!

re:Denise Druce | 9:42 a.m. June 8, 2009

Denise, I'm sure you are sincere in your desire to show compassion but you are missing the other side of the issue here. When Mary (who was caught in Adultery)was brought before Christ he did show great compassion but he ALSO told Mary to go thy way and SIN NO MORE. Today, people like yourself would like to Change the saviors words and remove the "sin no more" part. Christ was NOT accepting or accommodating of adultery and likewise with other equally serious sins such as homosexuality. The Savior understood that adultery,homosexuality and other sexual perversion were destructive to the soul and would eventually bring spiritual death upon those individuals who engaged in these evil practices. So yes, we can be compassionate to gays but at the same time we have to recognize that homosexual behavior is a sin condemned by Jesus Christ in the Old and New Testament and instead of "accommodating" the sinful behavior we can instead offer help to those who find themselves trapped into this self destructive behavior and at the same time protect our society from the reckless, selfish, and mean spirited gay activist movement.

to "get a grip" | 9:51 a.m. June 8, 2009

Jesus NEVER in the N.T. says anything about homosexuality. Murder, rape, and thievery harms individuals while gay marriage only allows two consenting adults some legal rights....no victim. Also, the bible allows for slavery and obedience to one's master so why follow that book? Yikes!!

Rebecca | 9:56 a.m. June 8, 2009

When we die, and we actually find ourselves in heaven, then we will really get it! Those that do not believe "such silly things" will be amazed. But the good news is, that they can still make amends.

To All the Gays | 10:08 a.m. June 8, 2009

Thank you for showing America how intolerant you are of other people's values. Thank you for showing us why the fight had begun in the first place. Thank You for giving a lot of credit to the LDS church for stopping Prop 8 even though the Catholic church asked them to get involved! NOW, you are only causing me to become more intolerant of you!!!!!!!!

Z | 10:09 a.m. June 8, 2009

Several quick comments. First, to the person saying how sad she was that Christians seem to be intolerant when Jesus taught love.

In a sentence, Jesus covered both sides of that coin when he said to the adulterous woman - "Neither do I condemn thee. Go thy way and sin NO MORE." He didn't judge nor look down upon her, but neither did he justify her behavior. That's the ideal approach in this debate.

Secondly, there are MYRIAD reasons to support heterosexual marriage. To the person who mentioned there were no arguments posted here delineating that, I must ask, are you serious? Tradition, nature, stable homes for future generations, procreation, and dozens more reasons. The list of reasons to defend traditional marriage are so apparent and so important, I can only assume that one who doesn't see it is consciously choosing not to look.

At the end of the day, I'm astonished that I live in an age when we are forced to defend the notion that marriage is between male and female. Truly, these are incredible times.

To A man? | 10:10 a.m. June 8, 2009

I have never seen this "vile hatred" that you're talking about please tell me more.

Anonymous | 10:10 a.m. June 8, 2009

I don't understand why Mormons still don't understand why the gay community was angry about the passage of proposition 8, and specifically angry at the church for the helping of that passage. It would be like the gay community lobbying in Utah for a constitutional amendment to ban marriage in the Mormon temple. A right that this particular group already had. The tactics were disgraceful in California with church money going to patently false claims like the teaching of kids in schools homosexuality.

If you think yourself a Christian isn't it much easier just to hate than accept Christ's teachings of love, compassion, and acceptance. But I guess the ego boost from declaring what is and what is not an abomination is irresistible.

I hate marches | 10:14 a.m. June 8, 2009

I hate when there are marches and not only ones for gay rights. I think they are dumb because they take away my rights when they march. I got stuck in a parking lot for 25 minutes waiting for the people marching to get out of the road. What gives them the right to block street and parking garage entrances and exits and walk outside of crosswalks? They take away my right too obey the law by driving down the road when they walk in the driving lanes illegally. If they want to protest then go ahead but do not block roads and take away my rights as a driver!!! Use the side walks and stay out of the roads!!!!!!!

whatever | 10:19 a.m. June 8, 2009

if they laws can say there is freedom of religion and then they go and out law plural marriage(not that I really agree with plural marriage but it is a religious belief for many) then they certainly can outlaw same sex marriage. Just a thought. It will probably start a religious arugment and that is not my point. My point is to show that the Government can control religious beliefs on marriage then they can control laws pertaining to marriage that have no religious barring what so ever. They say how old to you have to be to get married without parental consent and how old you have to be go have sexual relationships with someone else and how many wives you can have. So why not what gender you have to be?

To "Denise Druce" | 10:20 a.m. June 8, 2009

We are supposed to be kind to sinners, (and we all are sinners), but we are not supposed to support evil-doing.

If you want to be "for something" then try being for teaching your children to stand up for what is right and true.

How can you be both for marriage and for letting gays do whatever they want - being "tolerant?"

A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Alexander Pope said it well:

Vice is a monster of so frightful mien,
As to be hated needs but to be seen;
Yet seen too oft,
familiar with her face,
we first endure,
then pity,
then embrace

And BTW, disagreement is not "hate."

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