Reader comments
Education under scrutiny: Poor scores on basic skills test cited
17 comments | Read story
Who cares? | 11:50 a.m. June 5, 2009
What does it matter if kids pass this test or not? It is not indication of
anything about the kids or our education system. All the UBSCT does if see which
kids are good at taking tests and which have test anxiety and freeze up on
tests. This is just a test to misuse data and make up excuses as to why
Utah's education isn't good enough.
Also, I have a neighbor whose son didn't pass the Math portion of the test because he has SEVERE learning disabilities and would NEVER be able to pass that portion of the test no matter what education or training he received.
Also, I have a neighbor whose son didn't pass the Math portion of the test because he has SEVERE learning disabilities and would NEVER be able to pass that portion of the test no matter what education or training he received.
educational reform | 12:26 p.m. June 5, 2009
UBSCT is an eighth grade competency test, and should be readily passed by able
body students. Why does it matter for the 18% who failed? Because it
represents a deeper flaw in their basic knowledge and skills they should have
had before even entering High School.
It is great that we have improved. However, for UBSCT to have any meaning it should be given BEFORE a student enters High School. If a student isn't prepared for High School, then they should go to a trade school or establish an internship. Give those kids three chances, once at the end of eighth grade and twice in ninth grade (any beyond that they should pay for) and give them the support they need EARLIER so they can be where they are supposed to be. We need smaller classes, and tutors for those kids who struggle, and there isn't enough room for them in the Charter Schools that do that.
It is great that we have improved. However, for UBSCT to have any meaning it should be given BEFORE a student enters High School. If a student isn't prepared for High School, then they should go to a trade school or establish an internship. Give those kids three chances, once at the end of eighth grade and twice in ninth grade (any beyond that they should pay for) and give them the support they need EARLIER so they can be where they are supposed to be. We need smaller classes, and tutors for those kids who struggle, and there isn't enough room for them in the Charter Schools that do that.
Comments continue below
JT | 12:49 p.m. June 5, 2009
On the UBSCT writing test, my son failed the writing section. He passed on time
two. He didn't take it seriously and started his essay with "you
people are a sham".
what is the p;oint? | 4:46 a.m. June 6, 2009
Students with learning disabilities seem unfairly punished by this test. They
could not failing one or more portion on their transcript, but it should not be
listed (like a scarlet "F") on their diploma.
Test scores | 5:45 a.m. June 6, 2009
The only reason there is so much publicity about test scores is that they are
used for federal funding purposes. This is no way to educate, and illiterate
students are being graduated just to keep federal funds coming.
It doesn't matter what means or methods are used to teach students, none of it works unless you have control of the class rooms and students. Students are allowed to come and go as they please if they don't like a class. I do believe also that many young teachers that went through our education system do not have the background of the basics to relate their subject matter, especially in the basic education needs like simple math, simple reading and writing skills. Our system of education has lost control in the class rooms with too many distractions and the students given too much freedom and choices. Many students want to learn but the few that this report is referring to are losing money for the state. There is no system that will reach all the students, and if the teachers don't have control in class then changes won't make any difference.
It doesn't matter what means or methods are used to teach students, none of it works unless you have control of the class rooms and students. Students are allowed to come and go as they please if they don't like a class. I do believe also that many young teachers that went through our education system do not have the background of the basics to relate their subject matter, especially in the basic education needs like simple math, simple reading and writing skills. Our system of education has lost control in the class rooms with too many distractions and the students given too much freedom and choices. Many students want to learn but the few that this report is referring to are losing money for the state. There is no system that will reach all the students, and if the teachers don't have control in class then changes won't make any difference.
singapore math teacher | 7:35 a.m. June 6, 2009
The UBSCT results are posted on the web, but they aren't split by
district.
All the skills necessary to pass the math portion are taught by the end of the FIFTH grade in the Singapore math curriculum that Rep. Stephenson would like to see implemented in our elementary schools.
And I don't know how the math pass rate managed to tank for the graduating classes of 2008 and 2009. It would be interesting to find that out. The rate for the class of 2007 was 95%, meaning 5% of total students failed the math test all five times.
All the skills necessary to pass the math portion are taught by the end of the FIFTH grade in the Singapore math curriculum that Rep. Stephenson would like to see implemented in our elementary schools.
And I don't know how the math pass rate managed to tank for the graduating classes of 2008 and 2009. It would be interesting to find that out. The rate for the class of 2007 was 95%, meaning 5% of total students failed the math test all five times.
Anonymous | 8:19 a.m. June 6, 2009
With regard to using Singapore math, it will depend on which "Singapore
math". There is no longer one "Singapore math." There is material
based on the original math from before 2001, and then there is material adjusted
to make Americans feel comfortable with "Singapore math" and to fit
U.S. NCTM focal points, plus there is stuff out there called "Singapore
math" which is an adjustment of U.S. math, and there is new Singapore math
where they are "looking to the U.S." and introducing "fuzzy"
math into their own math, like invented strategies, looking for patterns,
working in groups more, using calculators sooner, solving math puzzles by trial
and error.
Anonymous | 10:22 a.m. June 6, 2009
I love how the news boards have become an advertising forum. So, here's my
contribution to the sales pitches - Singapore math is fuzzy math in disguise -
Saxon is the only math program that has it all.
By the way, I find it rather humerous (and yet not) that the state's students are practically failing in math yet the state board and legislature's focus is not on better math programs but better sex ed (see the other article in today's news). Does this strike anyone else as particularly misdirected?
By the way, I find it rather humerous (and yet not) that the state's students are practically failing in math yet the state board and legislature's focus is not on better math programs but better sex ed (see the other article in today's news). Does this strike anyone else as particularly misdirected?
What about Secondary Math? | 11:13 a.m. June 6, 2009
Adopting Singapore, or even Saxon math would help fix math in elementary grades,
Singapore is better at teaching mathematical problem solving and thinking
though.
Why is no one talking about fixing upper level math, doesn't anyone realize that over the past generation it has been gutted? All hard problems and many of the medium level problems have been taken out, in favor of very easy problems and a few mid level problems.
We need to understand that the math education community has gutted not only elementary math, with their getting away from learning the basics, but they have also gutted junior high and high school math too.
I have talked to Senator Howard Stephenson about this, as well as others on the education committee, and they are aware of this, but so far nothing has been done by them to fix THIS problem.
I am tired of what the math educators have done to math. While the rest of the world is improving their education, ours keeps getting dumber and dumber.
Why is no one talking about fixing upper level math, doesn't anyone realize that over the past generation it has been gutted? All hard problems and many of the medium level problems have been taken out, in favor of very easy problems and a few mid level problems.
We need to understand that the math education community has gutted not only elementary math, with their getting away from learning the basics, but they have also gutted junior high and high school math too.
I have talked to Senator Howard Stephenson about this, as well as others on the education committee, and they are aware of this, but so far nothing has been done by them to fix THIS problem.
I am tired of what the math educators have done to math. While the rest of the world is improving their education, ours keeps getting dumber and dumber.
What is to be done? | 11:32 a.m. June 6, 2009
I have tried working with my own school Davis district to help improve math
education. When I met with them, they were very friendly and agreed with
everything I had to say. After our meeting as I followed up to see what
actually would be done to see that improvement would be made, I got the cold
shoulder. It appears they really aren't interested in real improvement.
Yet in the charter schools, improvement can be made quite easily. There the administrators, (the parents) are genuinely interested in quality education.
Perhaps a major growth of charter schools are our only real hope, professional educators just will not get behind real improvement or world class quality.
Yet in the charter schools, improvement can be made quite easily. There the administrators, (the parents) are genuinely interested in quality education.
Perhaps a major growth of charter schools are our only real hope, professional educators just will not get behind real improvement or world class quality.
re Anonymous | 8:19 a.m. June 6 | 11:58 a.m. June 6, 2009
You are right, Singapore is adopting many fuzzy american strategies, and did you
notice they are no longer number 1? In the last TIMSS test Taiwan has passed
them, Tiawan did this even though the scored significantly lower than Tiawan
used to score before the change in Singapore.
Our math educators, not being content with destroying our education here in the United States, have branched out it seems.
Our math educators, not being content with destroying our education here in the United States, have branched out it seems.
A Singaporean Says | 1:46 p.m. June 6, 2009
I am Singaporean and what I need to tell you folks is this: Do not ever be
fooled by the propaganda behind Singapore Math.
The reality over here is that many Primary -- or what you would call Elementary -- School students here have to undergo extra private tuition for Math.
Sorry to burst the bubble, but the situation gets worse over the decades. During my time back in the 1970s and 1980s, only those who were really weak in Math had private tuition. Still, we were discouraged by our teachers.
Now, being a former Private Tutor myself, I am aghast by the overwhelming demand for Math Tuition lessons. So go figure.
The reality over here is that many Primary -- or what you would call Elementary -- School students here have to undergo extra private tuition for Math.
Sorry to burst the bubble, but the situation gets worse over the decades. During my time back in the 1970s and 1980s, only those who were really weak in Math had private tuition. Still, we were discouraged by our teachers.
Now, being a former Private Tutor myself, I am aghast by the overwhelming demand for Math Tuition lessons. So go figure.
re: What is to be done | 5:24 p.m. June 6, 2009
What makes you think your ideas will solve all of the problems? Why is your
opinion so much more valuable than a professional educator? I think part of the
problem with education is parents who think they have all the answers and will
only be happy if they get there way.
just a teacher so what do I know | 8:12 p.m. June 6, 2009
Before we adopt a "new" math program, the state needs to take another
look at the core curriculum which all public teachers are required to use as a
guide. Right now it is a mile wide and an inch deep. Switch that around so
that mastery of a topic is accomplished before moving on, combined with not
expecting to know so many different concepts in one year, would go a long way to
improving understanding and use of math skills.
Another View | 4:23 a.m. June 7, 2009
To: What is to be done?
A family member of mine had a similar experience with her local Charter and their (mis)implementation of Saxon Math.
The only difference was that when she (and other parents) tried to work with "The Board" at her Charter they were anything but friendly. It was clear at the end of the meeting that "The Board" and only "The Board" knew what was best for the children.
You are happy with your Charter because they happen to agree with you on math education. What if they didn't? Can ALL parents have it THEIR way ALL of the time in anything but a Home School? I think not.
Please don't assume that Charters are the only schools that care about real improvement and world class quality. They aren't.
A family member of mine had a similar experience with her local Charter and their (mis)implementation of Saxon Math.
The only difference was that when she (and other parents) tried to work with "The Board" at her Charter they were anything but friendly. It was clear at the end of the meeting that "The Board" and only "The Board" knew what was best for the children.
You are happy with your Charter because they happen to agree with you on math education. What if they didn't? Can ALL parents have it THEIR way ALL of the time in anything but a Home School? I think not.
Please don't assume that Charters are the only schools that care about real improvement and world class quality. They aren't.
Be Careful what you wish for | 7:14 a.m. June 8, 2009
I was a parent and attended the demo that the state put on with singapore math.
The gentleman told me point blank that Singapore math is changing because
although students in Singapore did well at math they were finding that their
students were not doing well in the "real world." The ability to take
a test and pass it has nothing to do with my success in life. Howard Stephenson
has skin in the game somewhere. He needs to get out of politics and go to work
for one of these companies that he chooses to push through his political
connections. I want our kids to succeed but more memorization and regurgitation
is not the path to excellence in the 21st century.
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