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Church reviews plans for massacre site

Different Time and Abilities | 11:38 p.m. May 30, 2009

Sad part of our history but back in the days of no phones, no internet or e-mail, no cell phones or text messages and people who had been kicked out of 4 states (New York, Ohio, Missouri and Illinois), denied justice by their federal government, and were afraid of being kicked out of their homes again, I can see how this kind of tragedy could happen.

OK anti's, you can come out of the woodwork and call faithful Latter-day Saints blind sheep now.

Dan Maloy
Enid, OK

Hey DTA | 12:00 a.m. May 31, 2009

I don't think you can make any excuses for killing women and childeren. None. Yeah, they were persecuted, driven out and were threatened most of their lives. But killing women and children? Nope, no sympathy from this Ladder Day Saint.

I suggest you read the book that recently came out. Very well written and insightful.

For: 12:00 | 12:14 a.m. May 31, 2009

I never said that those involved were innocent, just that I can see how confusion could reign.

Like they say, knowledge literally is power.

Comments continue below

Explanation, Not Excuses | 1:05 a.m. May 31, 2009

"Hey DTA," I'd agree 100% there's no excuse for Mountain Meadows. But we do need to consider the explanation and learn from it so it never happens again. Explanations aren't excuses. That's where I'd hope "Dan's" FIRST paragraph was eventually headed, though he sadly trashes it by his truly curious invitation in the second.

We LDS really need to move past this attitude of "proactive defensiveness." A careful study of the D&C and Church history shows that the Lord expected the early Church members to try harder to make more friends and be better neighbors in Missouri, Illinois, etc., than many of them actually did. (See D&C 82:22, for instance--and I doubt the Lord was only speaking to 19th-century Mormons.) I'd never say the persecution wouldn't have happened, but there would clearly have been less of it had they followed this counsel.

That lingering enmity was part of the *explanation* of Mountain Meadows. If we *expect* and *invite* others to attack us today, aren't we perpetuating something of the same attitude? We don't need that. Let's move beyond it.

Back at DTA | 11:57 a.m. May 31, 2009

I'm pretty sure "confusion" could be considered an excuse. Knowledge is power and communication of knowledge is just important.

At the other comment, I never said that we shouldn't consider the explanation. I agree, we need to know the facts about what happened up to the massacre. It's just interesting that people try and defend the people who did this.

Hopefully we have learned from it and men who are in a position of responsibility will follow their leaders.

Me. | 12:18 p.m. May 31, 2009

I'm impressed with the way the Church has handled this site and their relations to the association of descendants. Allowing both groups to provide input will make the site a proper historical memorial. As a member of the Church, I've really enjoyed seeing how the Church and other groups have collaborated on many sites and places like this to allow for the best access and potential of these sites.

Anonymous | 12:40 p.m. May 31, 2009

Just let this fade away. Why commemorate it? I disagree with doing more. (I know a lot about this matter).

RE: Back at DTA | 4:25 p.m. May 31, 2009

The 1:05 poster here. (Not "Dan," the original DTA.) True, explanations can be used as excuses--it just depends on how they're construed. We do need to be careful about how we're expressing those. We need explanations RATHER THAN excuses, fully agreed.

Yet it's often the case that when we fully understand some deeper nuances of the explanation, the action makes more sense. Some apologists might well know enough that they can say, for instance, "Oh--now I can see why John D. Lee did what he did." That level of understanding is commendable--but then using that knowledge to form an excuse for his behavior isn't. So I wouldn't agree with that leap, either.

It's better for us to reach that level of understanding and assess exactly where those involved in Mountain Meadows went wrong. Then, as you indicated, we apply those lessons in our own lives, with the determination to (as the Book of Mormon itself puts it) "be wiser than [they] have been." That way, we avoid repeating this atrocity.

Ernest T. Bass | 7:23 a.m. June 1, 2009

re: DTA
At what point did the Fancher Party act as if they were going to kick out the Mormons?
California was their destination, that point isn't debateable.
How can you say the Mormons were worried they would be kick out again?
The lds people involved were 100% wrong. There is no excuse.
None.

I'm comfortable | 8:34 a.m. June 1, 2009

My wife I have ancestors on both sides of this tragedy. We are comfortable with the approach of:
1-Learning all that we can about the tragedy without judging the individuals involved
2-Honoring the dead as the Church and other organizations are doing
3-Knowing that no one gets away with anything in this life and judgement and consequence are left to our Savior, who knows all
4-Not building hostilities toward either side

Some of my ancestors joined the Church in Kirtland in 1830 and remained true to the Prophet Joseph all their lives. As a result, they were dealt many tragedies. I'm also comfortable with allowing all judgement of those incidents to remain in the hands of my Savior and I will not allow my emotions to be wasted on senseless judgments of others. I can become more like the person my God wants me to become by doing these things.

To 12:00 am | 8:38 a.m. June 1, 2009

Who are you kidding? You are no LATTER DAY SAINT. You don't even know how to spell "LATTER" You gave yourself away. I am not LDS, but I agree with the first poster. We don't have any right to judge the Mormon people of that day because we were not there, and we have no idea or know what prevoked this fight with the Mormons.

Anonymous | 8:41 a.m. June 1, 2009

I meant provoked.

Jon B. Holbrook | 4:46 p.m. June 1, 2009

I understand that the LDS Church is working with Mountain Meadows Association to put the Massacre site under federal protection. Once the Feds get control of the area, its condition will deteriorate. The Federal Government will not maintain the site as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has done. The descendants of the Fancher/Baker wagon train will regret the decision to remove the Massacre site from LDS control expecially when they have to pay a fee in order to pay respect to their ancestors. That is the way the Feds work.

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