Deseret News | Mountain Meadows rites help bridge animosities

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Mountain Meadows rites help bridge animosities

Timothy | 2:17 a.m. May 31, 2009

Read about it,ponder it and pray for the victims..This was a horrible event;something that should never of had happened...Kenny said,day before yesterday, something to the effect that people were different in that day,that the church had not evolved too far,that old memories and wounds were still raw for some to think and act rationally,I think there is a lot of truth to what he said..I also think there was an attempt on the part of the church at that time to cover-up what they really knew and, to shield certain church members from prosecution...However that is in the past,and while there is no excuse;and in my view no forgiveness for the perpetrators of this barbaric act,there comes a time when closure is needed so healing can begin..I applaud both factions for coming together to achieve that end..And I especially hope that the young children who were murdered, are somewhere with the Father living in peace,their mortal suffering long forgotten...

Dennis Goldsberry | 3:12 a.m. May 31, 2009

How times have changed. Juanita Brooks was the first to write about the massacre, and she commented on the silence that greeted her book from the authorities of the church she loved.

Monday Morning Quarterbacks? | 4:30 a.m. May 31, 2009

Greetings:

News reports, such as this one, always bothers me.

Who are we to be whimsically passing judgement on our forebearers?

We didn't live back then, under those conditions, so why do we dare to consider ourselves so righteous, and our ancestors so wicked and ignorant?

Since I am a convert in The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints, these were not my ancestors.

But, shall I apologize because I have ancestors who fought Indians, owned slaves, or who openly supported the Ku Klux Klan?

It's not right to be sitting safely esconced within academic ivory towers, smugly blaming our ancestors because they were imperfect human beings compelled to survive an arduous hostile environment.

We are emasculating ourselves, unwilling to face the harsh realities of contemporary politically incorrect choices.

It's possible that within a few months (or weeks?), our national economy will totally collapse, and with it, all semblance of society's conventional legal recourse.

Under those conditions, will we still be more righteous than the pioneers we now so blithely condemn?

Thank you.

John Robert Mallernee
Armed Forces Retirement Home
Washington, D.C. 20011-8400

Comments continue below

Anonymous | 6:28 a.m. May 31, 2009

I've read the Massacre and Mountain Meadows and it is a very good book. However, the authors, all of whom are employed by the LDS church, short shrift Brigham Young's role in the cover-up. There needs to be another book-length study focusing on how Young and his associates made Lee the fall man to spare them and the church grief.

No book will | 10:55 a.m. May 31, 2009

ever top Juanita Brook's on the topic, she is a state gem in terms of Southern Utah history. She knew far more of the actual people (or at least those close to them) as well as had the best access to all their journals/histories. It's funny someone like Bagley thinks he can write a book about it when he is so far removed from the time, place, and people who were involved (can you say ax to grind against the church). Though inexcusable, you have to put what happened in the context of the time (Federal Army marching on Utah etc.). Read Mrs. Brooks book before you decide for yourself. Her goal was the truth no matter what it was even at the risk of her church standing which was dear to her. I wish their were or had been more historians like her.

Rub Their BIG Noses In It | 12:07 p.m. May 31, 2009

Um, another article? Who cares- this is all craziness.

ramper | 1:00 p.m. May 31, 2009

RE: anonymous
The authors plan on another book dealing with just that subject. The research is ongoing.

RE: Monday Morning Quarterback
When a 'pioneer' walks along side of a 12 year old girl who has been told she is safe and that 'pioneer' puts a bullet in her head, that person does deserve to be condemned as a cold blooded murderer just as the others who took part in that slaughter do. Many were leaders who relied on everything but the Holy Ghost which they preached was so important. The research shows clearly the obscene reasoning that evolved into an incident that, in reality, was not justified.

To Ramper | 2:22 p.m. May 31, 2009

You forget to mention what helped set all the events into motion. Emma Smith lost a child when a door was left open on a measled child so that Joseph could be dragged away for tarring and feathering. Exposure was the final straw for that baby. Add to that the countless times property was forceably removed from LDS ownership. Or, how about the extermination order in Missouri? Those were events when Joseph was alive. From there, the Mormons traveled an extreme hardship to the other side of the universe. While it may seem a heinous crime, please do not pretend that bigoted events did not help set the tragedy into motion.

An anti-mormon who understands history

To ramper | 2:33 p.m. May 31, 2009

Very good comment...There is no defense for the slaughter of innocent children,no rationale that can justify it...It has become(thanks to aggressive research) very apparent that what happened in southern Utah was planned and encouraged by a few very misguided(some would say evil)members of the church...I also cannot believe that they were guided by the Holy Spirit to commit such a terrible act...I realize that people were paranoid,angry, and distrustful in those days;they had good reason to be fearful...That still does not give one license to commit wholesale slaughter against unarmed civilians...Juanita Brook's book,of course,is an excellent one, as is Will Bagley's version of the event"Blood of the Prophets:Brigham Young and the Mountain Meadows Massacre"....Bagely's is much more detailed and gives one more information to consider;and there are insinuations that will,most likely,offend some members...Again,being far removed from a historical event does not preclude one from writing an accurate account about it..Most historians have axes to grind;the excellent writers are just more subtle than others...

cedar city | 2:47 p.m. May 31, 2009

I cannot believe that this paper is defaming southern Utah again..i wrote this before and so i will do it again..Those Arkansas people murdered Parley Pratt in cold blood and laughed about it,they bragged that they had the guns that shot and killed Joseph and Hyrum,they had oxen named Joseph and Brigham,they were trying to steal our women,and they poisoned springs and dead cattle in order to kill the indians..Why not talk about the role the indians played...And the prophet Brigham Young had nothing to do with it..You should be ashamed for allowing this topic to come up;all it is doing is tearing the church down..If you really want to know the truth,come down to southern Utah and we will be glad to tell you...

ramper | 3:19 p.m. May 31, 2009

Re: cedar city

All the Arkansas people? The young children, the woman? Come on! Stop with the "they deserved it" rationale. I suggest you read the latest book on the incident that received high acclaim. The LDS authors are well respected and turned over many stones that were hidden before. You will be surprised about the facts concerning the poisoned cattle story among others. This has nothing to do with defaming southern Utah, the Church, or worthy members. It has to do with revealing the truth and healing wounds. It shows what can happen when people turn off the spirit and act on revenge and fear instead. Thank goodness the Church is helping to put the whole sordid incident into perspective.

Self Importance | 3:42 p.m. May 31, 2009

Some are always RAMPING and raving on and on like they really know something. Kind of like wannabe's but really knows nothing at all.

To 2:22 | 4:05 p.m. May 31, 2009

I think people have put their opinions here in the context that is allowing for the suffering the church went through... Your claim to being an anti-mormon, seems to me, to ring a little false;you certainly sound like you are defending what happened at Mountain Meadows;or, at the very least,making excuses for it, as you seem to be when you state"While it may seem a heinous crime"...Maybe you need to refresh your memory about your historical knowledge...

RE: cedar city | 4:41 p.m. May 31, 2009

Hey, "cedar city," you're hardly spreading out the welcome mat. Quite frankly, I'm now a bit scared to talk to you, in southern Utah or not--and I'm LDS! Just a thought: Perhaps the most important thing we can do is to let go of the bitterness and enmity?

Pride, bitterness and enmity is what will REALLY tear down the church, if anything will. We as a church can and will move past this--if we will learn from the errors and horrors of the past. We CANNOT continue to attempt to justify the atrocities Mormons committed at Mountain Meadows by saying that our enemies at that time committed them, too. THAT is what is truly making the Church look stupid--and it's ultimately what those who committed the massacre did.

"cedar city," I refer you to the Sermon on the Mount for further relevant commentary on the subject.

cedar city come on... | 4:43 p.m. May 31, 2009

Blame the Inidans? The role they played? Their land, their land, their land?

Sure, toss in a blame on the Indians. shheeese lousie

Back the church up | 7:16 p.m. May 31, 2009

No one is blaming the Indians, but just the Indians blame themselves. I know some who do.

G. G. G. Grandson of John D. Lee | 11:25 a.m. June 1, 2009

None of it should have happened from Ohio to Missouri to Illinois to Utah, but it did. Have the ones guilty of murder at Hauns Mill, Nauvoo, Far West or Carthage been named or blamed? Did John D. Lee wake up and decide to get the Indians to help and a lot of his neighbors to help massacre a wagon train?

None of us know what really happened. All of the books written from both sides don't know what really happened. They assume from what they can find in records. Unfortunately, those killed didn't leave record and those that ordered it and did the killing did not either. More so, those that did the killing entered a blood oath not to tell. Those that did tell were very questionable in their reports and were often tainted with agenda influence. Even John D. Lee's supposed confession that was published was done by someone else and did not match his writing style nor was it in his own writing. It is supposed that it was his attorney who did it for profit.

It is time to let those who are guilty be dealt with by the ultimate Judge.

Randall | 12:13 p.m. June 1, 2009

The Most UnAmerican Event In Utah History.

I defer judgement to Jesus | 2:11 p.m. June 1, 2009

My wife I have ancestors on both sides of this tragedy. We are comfortable with the approach of:
1-Learning all that we can about the tragedy without judging the individuals involved
2-Honoring the dead as the Church and other organizations are doing
3-Knowing that no one gets away with anything in this life and judgement and consequence are left to our Savior, who knows all
4-Not building hostilities toward either side

Some of my ancestors joined the Church in Kirtland in 1830 and remained true to the Prophet Joseph all their lives. As a result, they were dealt many tragedies. I'm also comfortable with allowing all judgement of those incidents to remain in the hands of my Savior and I will not allow my emotions to be wasted on senseless judgments of others. I can become more like the person my God wants me to become by doing these things.

RE: I defer... | 2:30 p.m. June 1, 2009

... 100% agreed, and well-put. May those sentiments be the final word on this subject.

Peace to all | 3:25 p.m. June 1, 2009

I pray for peace for both sides.

To the rest of you, let it be. People just need to try to get along. I think the descendants on both sides of this tragedy need to to spend time and work together, so to heal. That is where the healing will begin and friendships made. People on the outside and who do not have ancestors involved in the tragedy need to stay out of it and leave all these people alone. It has absolutely nothing to do with any of you. Creating chaos on blogs including other newspapers needs to stop.

ramper | 3:40 p.m. June 1, 2009

And yet woman and children had bullets in their heads. I doubt mass suicide was the cause. Violence against us or violence from us needs to be identified by respected historians who exhaust all relevant records in presenting an historical record. Those who think this does not have a place should then stop reading any history about the Church or anything else. I am grateful that the most up to date record of the incident is from three experienced, talented, respected, and honored Church historians.

Bill to Defer | 3:41 p.m. June 1, 2009

Well said. It is not our place to judge what happened. We have a general idea but there were so many things that lead up to this trajedy. There are some who feel, we the Church was justified and then there are others who don't.

Regardless of the feelings I wish no harm on any man who had anything to do with the mob violence of Ohio, Missouri or Illinois. They will be judged and the blood of the innocents revenged by the Lord himself. The same is true of those who committed this act. Their judgement will be harsher than the ones done in the mob violence because they knew and held the truth but that is still up to God's judgement not ours. Forgiveness is required of each of us. To be honest I don't know what I would do today if someone is an ancestor of those who were part of the Hahn's Mill Massacre. Hopefully, I have learned enough to just look them in the face and just say, that is okay it is in the Lord's hand.

To John | 3:49 p.m. June 1, 2009

I read your comment, and I understand you are in a retirement home.

Take it for what it is worth, but I think it is a good think your way of thinking will not be with us much longer.

To Ramper | 4:14 p.m. June 1, 2009

You ramp and rage daily on almost all MMM posts. Maybe you need to get some counseling for your unnecessary comments of total hatred. I also believe It would be nice to have peace amongst both sides.

I will pray for your emotional comfort.

RE: ramper | 4:56 p.m. June 1, 2009

Anyone who was actually involved,

and anyone that anyone wants to suppose was involved,

are all long dead and gone,

it's time for forgiveness and peace and moving one.

I believe trhe LDS Chruch has handle this quite repectably, openly, honestly, and honorably.

It's funny the only ones want to "kick against the pricks" ( a prick was a wooden shaft with pointed end used for tilling the soil) are the ones that seem to have NO dogs in the fight, but their own hate for the church.

JUST CURIOUS ? | 5:39 p.m. June 1, 2009

I was curious to know if there are any meetings planed to take place for descendants on both sides? I would personally like to attend the meetings if any one knows something about this? And there I would be happy to apologize to these people face to face. It would give me and my family a true peace of mind and we would like to make friendships with the massacre descendants, so that they know we are not all evil and bad nor mean any of them any harm :)

ramper | 6:15 p.m. June 1, 2009

RE: 4:14

What in the world are you talking about? Where do you read hatred? Is that what you call speaking out in favor of historical research? And from what imaginary realm did you come up with "you ramp and rage daily on almost every MMM post?" Take the time to scroll through all those topics you can that are still on this site. Every one. You will see what a ridiculous statement you just made. I suggest you read the current book on the massacre by our historians. It is balanced and riveting. If the description of the killings (especially the young ones) do not move you to also speak out about those who try to defend that which is indefensible than so be it. I make no apologies for expressing my feelings on this or any other topic.

Hey, ramper... | 6:40 p.m. June 1, 2009

... watch out for trolls. Looks like 4:14 was one. No upside to taking the bait. I still think your comments were reasonable--and kudos to you for that--but sometimes there's no reasoning with people who are more concerned with picking a fight than in discussing a subject intelligently. Perhaps we can all pray for 4:14's apparent need for emotional comfort of his/her own and turn the other cheek.

@: Ramper | 6:44 p.m. June 1, 2009

Reread your comments, ramper. Your comments sound very attacking, hostile and full of hatred to me.

I have read the new m. m. massacre book, and so what? It tells the truth, and people now simply want peace. So please try to get over your misery.

PEACE TO BROTHER, RAMPER

ramper | 6:50 p.m. June 1, 2009

Re: 6:40

I appreciate that advice. I am not afraid of any fight. I stepped through the ropes into too many boxing rings for that. But I must admit the battle of words is a harder challenge for me.

descendant | 7:23 p.m. June 1, 2009

I understand that there is a lot of peace and good feelings now happening with descendants on both sides. This was good news that I received today from a friend, and I am excited that we are finely coming together with the Fancher group. The descendants on both sides are working together.

Anonymous | 9:10 p.m. Oct. 24, 2009

I'm a descendant of Samuel Wood - he & his wife I am led to believe survived the Hauns Mill Massacre.
Also seeking info of other forefather & mother
Gallup.
Let the mistakes of the past never be repeated.

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