Deseret News | Relating our faith to rest of Christianity

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Relating our faith to rest of Christianity

Anonymous | 12:24 a.m. May 28, 2009

It might be valuable to explore why people don't share your faith.

Timothy | 1:06 a.m. May 28, 2009

If one is really interested in how Christianity evolved,i would suggest"The Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire"by the highly esteemed historian Edward Gibbon..Of course you would want to read the chapters pertaining to the early church,and the beginning of heresy that came almost immediately..When I first read the Book of Mormon,I came to the conclusion that it is a rather simplistic, heretical statement;hardly worthy of the time of an reasoning and intelligent person, and plainly the invention of a sub-par intellect..That is why I am recommending the above tome for your readers perusal..You will plainly discover that more time and thought should have gone into the Mormons peculiar little fantasy and how better to revise it when it falls short in objective analysis...I obviously do not wish Mormons or other followers of false prophets any ill will;I just think the quality of heresy has sunk so far as to have the effect of suppressing any reasonable discourse on the subject..Read the book and see how an interesting and stimulating heresy is formed and spread...

ramper | 5:41 a.m. May 28, 2009

Thank god we have such an intellectual giant like Timothy to guide us through our weaknesses. I feel I have hope now.

Comments continue below

SFC RET DENNIS | 7:34 a.m. May 28, 2009

Timothy I see you dont understand the BOM. Im not saying you would read and join the church because not everyone agrees with every faith just when you read the BOM it is not as simple as you clam. No mear boy or anyone ells could have conceived this book. You may believe it is false and are church is false and that is your right but you will never convince me and thousands of others differently. You and others like you can call us whatever name you wish but it will change nothing and I will ask this question why is ours the only one attacked so heavily? There are so many different churches that gang up on us and the more everyone gangs up on us the more our testimonies grow. Your attacks my so many can only be due to the adversary, (Satin) trying to stop the Lords work in this world why ells would he work so hard through others to stop this work. However when we all die we shall see who was right at least we believe everyone has a chance to make heaven.

Smartitude | 8:24 a.m. May 28, 2009

The great thing about smart people is they know much better than the people of faith. Because they're smart. They really are the only ones able to comment on religious matters. Because they're smart. And if you doubt their smartitude, you just need ask them whether or not they're smart. They'll let you know just how smart they are, because that's what smart people do. Because they're smart.

DKL | 8:30 a.m. May 28, 2009

Timothy, to quote a movie line, "I'm laughing a the superior intellect".

A True testimony | 8:43 a.m. May 28, 2009

leads to an infection of Christ(Holy Ghost) not an affection of Christ,it exalts Christ, also it convicts one of his sin when you realize mans' nature is much closer to Hitlers' than Christs'(he is God)Satin would not teach that,and since you now Love Jesus you should want to know all about him,and the Bible is where you learn,God's love letter.

Timothy | 9:26 a.m. May 28, 2009

Oh my,i fear i have upset the seminary students again,and that was not my intent:i was responding to the barely hidden,condescending tone of Orsons article this morning..Lets see,how did he dismiss skeptical review? "With scholarly rigor,Givens demolishes all of the supposedly "fact based" criticisms of the Book of Mormon and makes mincemeat of the suppositional explanations,like the Spaulding manuscript"...If some of the authors of profound statements, that are discussing this article, would take time to read "By the Hand of Mormon"you might find that not only does it leave out a lot of pesky facts,but that it is extremely biased in favor of the church in the information it examines..Hence the gentle push to Edward Gibbon and his masterpiece of history...Once again,i do not despise Mormons as some seem to insist...After all,i am married to a lifelong member(BYU,Temple recommend,and good standing)..And to Dennis, who i think sometimes makes just and valid points;attributing my personal views to a collusion with Lucifer is about as low as you can get..So much for your Christian understanding and love....

Instereo | 10:33 a.m. May 28, 2009

A couple of points:

1. It's good to know the other side of things or why you believe what you believe but it's hard to expect people who you consider wrong to agree with your outlook.

2. When you learn about the early church, are you going to be willing to apply what you've learned to the LDS church which is now 179 years old and wonder if the church today has been changed over time and if that change constitutes a "Great Apostacy."

Finally, I don't think anyone has been able to define ultimate truth let alone be able to convince people to agree. We might feel warm and fuzzy about the concept of ultimate truth and want to believe in it but everything changes over time. So can ulitimate truth really remain the same? I think our quest should be for finding truth for out times instead of finding the ultimate truth since there really can't be an ultimate truth because of change.

Satan's tactics..... | 10:46 a.m. May 28, 2009

Oh Timothy. Your words and attitude remind me of part of an article written by James E. Faust in the January issue of the Ensign magazine.

Speaking about the latter-day tactics of Satan, he wrote, "I think we will witness increasing evidence of Satans power as the kingdom of God grows stronger. I believe Satans ever-expanding efforts are some proof of the truthfulness of this work. In the future the opposition will be both more subtle and more open. It will be masked in greater sophistication and cunning, but it will also be more blatant. We will need greater spirituality to perceive all of the forms of evil and greater strength to resist it. But the disappointments and setbacks to the work of God will be temporary, for the work will go forward."

Timothy, your comments follow the pattern he describes. Good luck in your efforts to reason and philosophize against the truth.

Anonymous | 11:07 a.m. May 28, 2009

To Smartitude,

funny, that is exactly the logic used by your so-called "prophets".

We can just as easily say:

The great thing about prophets is they know much better than the people. Because they're prophets. They really are the only ones able to comment on religious matters. Because they're prophets. And if you doubt their smartitude/prophetitude, you just need ask them whether or not they're prophets. They'll let you know just how divine and inspired they are, because that's what prophets do. Because they're prophets!"

Duh!

Your ignorance makes you an easy target for fales prophets.

Anonymous | 11:12 a.m. May 28, 2009

Uhhh, Timothy... I know this will shatter your self esteem, but few historians or scholars agree with Gibbon's analysis of Christianity. His views were deeply influenced by Enlightenment thought and while he did practice a reverence for primary sources, he certainly did not have the sources which have to come to light in the last century. He was a great writer for his time, but remember that he first published "Decline and Fall" in the 1770's.

Scholarship moves along, and historical scholarship and archaeology have changed radically in the last few decades. You may want to read some more current works and catch up with current thought before you try blasting the Mormons. Givens' work has been highly acclaimed by REAL scholars.

Ultimate truth | 11:19 a.m. May 28, 2009

Thomas asked Jesus how can we know the way or the ultimate truth? Jesus answered, John 14:6 "I am the way,the Truth,and the life,no man cometh unto the Father,but by me.

RE: Satan,s tactics | 11:27 a.m. May 28, 2009

Yes "a familiar spirit" Levitcus 19:31 describes the BOM.

Bro Card | 11:32 a.m. May 28, 2009

Thank you for the information about these books. As, I am an avid reader, I also love history and learning about the past. I love to learn things and am grateful for learning about these books and look forward to reading them.

Timothy... you have the right to believe as you do - as do I !!!

Dear Satan | 12:12 p.m. May 28, 2009

Yes,the Dark Lords work is continuing as he expected...He has effectively brainwashed about 13 million human beings to date,and apparently he has added another one at 10:46 am...You condemn Timothy for speaking his(I might add quite articulate) opinion and then,if I am not mistaken, you intimate that he is an agent of Satan..At least he has the courage to use his own name and not hide behind the cowardice of fabricated names and monikers... But this is what one must expect from religious fanatics;they commonly can not prevail in open debate, so they resort to the age old tactic of demonizing their opponent...In so doing they are simply showing their true character and lack of any influence of the Holy Spirit that they claim to be infused with...Actually,and i am familiar with Timothys posts;I think the gist of his comment was to get people to compare "The Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire" to Orson Cards recommended reading list and see the difference between a master historian,and if i am permitted to regress,a mere piker...

kenny | 12:34 p.m. May 28, 2009

A person can take the scholarly aproach to mormonism and find holes in its teaching if that is what they are looking for. I would step out on the limb so far as to say that until a person has read the Book of Mormon searching for its truths, then they have not read the Book of Mormon.Actually a person can read this book a hundred times and never grasp it's meaning.Critics of the BOM seem to hold my respect until they start using words that are un scholary and demeaning to someone who truly believes.There is no dignity in demeaning someones faith.If you want to be a schlorly critic at least walk out with the respect we thought we had for you.

Nullset00 | 12:39 p.m. May 28, 2009

For an engrossing and scholarly read, I recommend "The River of God" by Gregory Riley. This short but powerful book looks at several key religious concepts in the context of ancient Hebrew culture, as well as other ancient cultures. If you are like me, you will experience many "lightbulb" moments when certain verses of scripture take on a new dimension because of historical illumination.

anonymous@11:12 | 12:53 p.m. May 28, 2009

Would you mind giving us the names of these scholars who hold Givens work in such high esteem???Also,if you can,the ones who dismiss Gibbon as irrelevant and dated..Do they also dismiss Socrates,Plato, and of course some religious icons,such as Isaiah,Moses,and Jesus because of the antiquity of their thought??? Truth is truth,no matter what age it comes from...By the way,when Orsons selections are just dust in the wind,Gibbons magnum opus will still remain;a relevant testament to history students around the world...

Gameliel | 1:06 p.m. May 28, 2009

I am once again reminded of a great story from the New Testament that applies here. The man by the name of Gameliel warned the people fighting against the apostles and church of Jesus Christ that it is futile to fight a man made thing. Man made things never last and usually destroy themselves. However, if it is a God-made thing, then they are indeed fighting against God and His Kingdom and they are doing nothing to help themselves. (Acts 5:34-39)

If the LDS church as many think and feel is man-made, why do you care, it will destroy itself and it has no bearing on your life or truth. But, if the LDS church is God-made then you are fighting against Him and His Kingdom.

Just leave it alone, and go on and live your life, why fight the LDS church its a waste of your time, and you might be doing yourself more harm than good.

To Gameliel | 1:49 p.m. May 28, 2009

I think some people care because they do not want their friends and loved ones dragged down to perdition by false doctrine and false prophets...

SFC RET DENNIS | 2:08 p.m. May 28, 2009

Timothy 9:26 a.m. as fair as I am concerned you and people like you are the ones who get as low as one can for you condemn and persecute that which you do not and refuse to understand. No other church in this day and age is more condemned and persecuted then the LDS faith. We took a stand on prop 8 with people of other faith and they stood with us yet we are the only ones who were condemned and persecuted for taking a stand on the side of God for it. No other church has been condemned for their support for prop 8. So what ells is I to believe then that people who condemn us are part of Satin with to destroy us, will never happen but there it is. I should also say that most people don't realize that my codenaming and trying to tear us down don't realize that they are supporting the will of Satin, sorry for the misunderstanding, I should have clarified it, not that you or anyone ells will believe it. The bible does teach that in the last days the lords church will be persecuted.

Re: Gamaliel 1:06 | 2:10 p.m. May 28, 2009

Saint Paul was a student of Gamaliel (Acts 22:3)but left the Pharisees when he became a Christian and became a witness of the Gospel to Jews and Gentiles,in the same way Christians are suppose proclaim the good news to all. Speaking for myself,Matthew 28:19 commands it. I left the Mormon church 22 years ago,when I became a Christian.

Wanna' Bet? | 2:24 p.m. May 28, 2009

To Gameliel,

First of all, it is spelled Gamaliel, and second of all, many of us feel called upon by God to help expose this man-made thing that many believe to be "The Great Deception" spoken of in Revelations.

We ARE God's hands.

Besides, why didn't Joseph Smith use the same logic instead of attacking ALL other religions, calling them all false, and their teachers all corrupt? And why did he and all Mormon missionaries attach all other religions by teaching that myth and fabrication "The Great Apostasy" as the reason why a "Restoration" was necessary?

As you can see, Mormons claim the Catholic Church (and all other Churches) are "man-made", but they are still around and the LDS Church is closer to disappearing than are all the other Christian Churches which have been around for 10 times longer, and have 10 times as many members as the LDS Church!

So, by Gamaliel's logic, these Christian Churches are "of God" and the LDS Church is "of men"!

Kicking against the pricks | 2:32 p.m. May 28, 2009

Wow, there are a lot of bitter people out there that are either disaffected or bitter Mormons, excommunicated or disfellowshipped Mormons or non-Mormons.

These people seem to spend a lot of their time trying to save the rest of us from what they think is false LDS doctrine or they've just been deeply hurt or rejected by people concerning LDS teachings or culture and they're just trying to attack the people that have hurt them.

It's almost like they've made it a hobby to read all these LDS-related articles and feel compelled to argue and write about it. Anyway, it makes for humorous reading.

Tass | 2:44 p.m. May 28, 2009

This is a very twisted view of history. But the FACT is, Christianity would not even be here today if not for the Ancient Greeks and their love of wisdom (philosophia) that this author erroneously identifies as one thing that corrupted Christianity. Nonsense! Christianity GREW UP in the Greek world, and this world is where the *passionate religious expression* of the Jews met the *compassionate reasoning* of the Ancient Greeks. The entire concept of just what it is to BE Christian would not even exist otherwise. In fact, the New Testament was written in Greek originally. It wasnt translated into Greek by Constantine. This book is an exercise in re-writing and twisting history to fit shameful doctrine (shameful because it's absolutely rootless and defies Christian tradition). Orthodox Christianity is called "Orthodox" for a reason; it has remained unchanged through the last 2000 years. It's not 'based' on the Early Church; it IS the Early Church.

True persecution | 2:54 p.m. May 28, 2009

The Christians in China and are being put in prison and killed for their faith in Jesus, not for moral issue Muslims are against gay rights as well.

Anonymous | 3:17 p.m. May 28, 2009

"Stark reports that the most effective means of converting new Christians was the creation of a tightly bonded community that welcomed newcomers. People were converted to the church first, and only really learned the gospel afterward (though this does not imply that doctrines were unimportant)."

Funny, that's exactly how CULTS work!

Hmmmmm.

brent roberts | 3:48 p.m. May 28, 2009

You left 22 years ago but you haven't left it alone.
I would leave the church for a better one if you could point me the way. I look at how these "christians churches" treat there fellowman and want no part of their hate, and I see how the help their fellow man and see they may be lacking.
For those of you of other faiths, if you would tithe yourself 10% and give it to your church the could do so much more to help others. Personal people who don't their money where their mouth is should be smile at and patted on the head.

to dkl | 4:05 p.m. May 28, 2009

try to remember my friend;"the one who laughs last,laughs best"...

RE: Timothy | 4:57 p.m. May 28, 2009

Gibbons work is over two hundred years old!

And is limited by what ever the understanding was at that time.

I think we have learned thing or two since then.

Maybe it's time you update your "knowledge".

It's FUNNY how people believe the people they want to as great persons and scholars,

but condemn any who oppose their views.

Dust in the wind | 5:16 p.m. May 28, 2009

Mr. Card, given your recommendations for reading, I can see why you write science fiction/fantasy. You are fantasy oriented.

Anonymous | 5:22 p.m. May 28, 2009

Christianity, as most, flourished because of power and money, period..

Wars, thousands of people died in the name of "accept my Christianity" ..I mean, did God say, "Hey go tell those guys accept this religion of chop their heads off" I seriously doubt it..

Power over the masses

Some of the people can be snuckered 100% of the time, because it is easier to follow and not question

I have no fuss with any religion. People are going to believe what they chose.

Spirituality is more important to me and my family than any religion.

Tithing is very important. We give to what we chose. What touched your heart?..we do tithe willingly and gladly.

I have studied theology extensively and I do believe it is all "man made"..

power....

Jim III | 7:33 p.m. May 28, 2009

Having read some of the posts from those who are not of the LDS faith, I am amazed at how much they attack the LDS Church and the members.
I wish to state that I joined the LDS Church after reading the King James version of the Bible.
I used to be of the Baptist faith. The Baptist Church that I attended years ago would be called part of the Evangelical movement today.

I would listen to the preacher preach, on occasion there would be the Evangelist would come in for a Revival meetings. I would listen to those men preach their version of the Gospel.
On too many occasions what was preached by one was a
lot different than what was preached by another. Yet they both were speaking on the same Bible verses.

Many of the preachers would put the Lord on a pedestal and preach on his doctrines, however, they would also at virtually the same time would start wrapping him in binding chains and they would try to say the the Lord would do such and such doctrine.

They seem to forget that the Bible points to the Lord, not to the hand of men.

Odd | 7:37 p.m. May 28, 2009

It's odd that some of you are so anxious to condemn these books. If you don't like them, DON'T READ THEM! Problem solved! The rest of us will exercise our freedom of religion and believe as we choose and will allow you the same privledge! We don't care what you choose to believe but for some srange reason a few of you you really get angry at those of us who choose to believe. Do you fear that these books are some kind of threat to you? Fear is a destuctive force in your life. Go volunteer, help a little old lady accross the street, do something, anything that will give your life meaning!

RE: Jim 111 | 8:30 p.m. May 28, 2009

"The Gospel (John 3:16) is easy a simple plowboy can understand it,you need a Priest to make it difficult" Martin Luther
I have a lot of Baptists friends but I go to a Bible-beleiving Lutheran church,we have the most important things in common with Baptists: Grace only,Christ only,faith only,Bible only,to Christians the invisable church is the true church,not the physical church.

Virgil | 10:39 a.m. May 29, 2009

I would like to add a couple of selections that i have enjoyed;and they seem to appeal to both members and non-members..."Joseph Smith:Rough Stone Rolling" by Richard Bushman,and for a much better choice from Terry Givens(in my opinion)"People of Paradox:A History of Mormon Culture"..I would suggest you stay away from "By The Hand of Mormon",unless you are rigid and uncritical,as it is blatantly slanted in favor of the church..Once again,fine for some folks,but not for me...Also i think"Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"is an excellent selection for some;it did not seem dated to me,far from it...Gibbons brings to life and displays a whole array of characters in a most delightful way;and i read all the volumes,not just the abridged version..By the way Orson,your Aunt Delpha says hello and wishes you well;at least that is what she told me to say...

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