Reader comments
Orson Scott Card: Culture that's out of control

Excesses | 5:18 a.m. May 14, 2009

I found it very humorous that on the very web page of Bro. Card's article on Mormon Times, right in the middle of his comments and observations about LDS excesses--
that we see an ad for excessively elaborate (and expensive)"White Elegance"--clothing for excessive LDS "showing off" and "flaunting" for baby blessings, temple attendance, baptisms. etc.

KY Mom | 7:57 a.m. May 14, 2009

I'm so glad he was able to put into words the cultural shift that is occuring in the church. He could have added in a few more things, like, wedding reception excesses, plastic surgery to change the body we were given, and major youth trips still being taken even after the budget guidelines were set forth. Sadly, it's not just happening in the "Mormon corridor". It may start there, but the pressure is felt other places too. We should know better, and our leaders shouldn't be put in the difficult position to command in all things...

Ryan | 8:40 a.m. May 14, 2009

Brother Card opens fire with both barrels, and is right on target. The contradictions that are hardest to see are not just the ones that are right in front of us, but the ones we are caught up in ourselves. Thank you for shining a spotlight on this, Brother Card.

Comments continue below

Anonymous | 9:16 a.m. May 14, 2009

Cultural shifts have always been happening among the LDS people -- as far back as the first establishment of the Church. What I think Mr. Card is describing is actually a subculture. The culture of the LDS people IS industriousness, hard work, and frugality. Subcultures are the dangerous thing, and they constantly spring up and sweep through the LDS church. It takes someone standing up and calling people on it, like he is doing, and which I appreciate. Unfortunately people often need to be reminded of who they are and what they stand for. It's easy for subcultures to become known as "the culture" when in fact they have been integrated accidentally, like the problem of missionary farewells (if we look back far enough at a very old tradition, a bar mitzvah probably once consisted of a boy getting a hug from his parents). If we're not constantly checking ourselves, things tend to sweep us away. At any minute now I fear fast and testimony meeting will be known as the meeting where we let the primary children bear testimony. :)

Amen | 9:38 a.m. May 14, 2009

With the current economic problems, I worry, too, at the expectations of youth.
A few years ago, the budget system was changed. You were to make due with what you were alloted, instead of going overboard (our stake had a huge problem with that and road shows!).
Fundraising is only allowed once a year for the YM/YW.
And yet, they are taken on extravagant outings, etc. that cost beyond the budget, or are being paid for by individuals.
How can we teach our youth to be fiscally responsible, if they think it's okay to go over budget?
Generousity is one thing, but this is also breeding a generation of youth who think they are entitled to the extravagant, instead of thinking of the sacrifices others have made for them through their tithing.

A Man | 10:09 a.m. May 14, 2009

Amen to this article. Here is another that needs to be addressed:

HUGE Priesthood circles for baby blessings or confirmations. You know, with 20 Priesthood holders or more. 7 or 8 men ought to be more than enough. I think the Brethren sent out a letter on this years ago. It has been ignored.

Mormon Soprano | 10:24 a.m. May 14, 2009

Orson, you always crack me up! It is true, Mormons are perfectionists and sometimes we go a little too far magnifying the lovely and of good report principle. However, your article is too harsh. Excess is not a Mormon problem, it is human nature. The mission luncheon cant be helped. Relatives and friends travel long distances to attend. It is rude to expect them to sit through 2 hours of church in a foreign ward. They wont do it. They will either leave, and you miss the opportunity to visit with loved ones you have not seen in years, or they will head over to the house immediately afterwards assuming you will be there. Someone must be assigned to man the troops until you arrive. Again: culturally rude. Ward members shouldnt go until after their meetings. Thats a given. Ive never lived in a ward that did. Most wards provide potluck to support the family delivered before Sacrament meeting. The Bunko thing is so yesterday! That was a fleeting trend over 8 yrs ago among a very small sub-sub-culture of desperate utah mormon housewifes. You do a disservice to give them attention.

Invitations? | 10:34 a.m. May 14, 2009

I think it's weird to get an actual printed invitation to the missionary's post-church "open house". Funnier still is when it "invites" you to the sacrament meeting and I'm already in the ward! We are guilty of skipping the rest of church to provide a meal for the out-of-town relatives who are driving home that day, though. Most of them have 3 to 4 hours driving to do and when weather is an issue such as winter-time, I feel (okay, rationalize) that's a worthwhile reason to skip the other meetings. Guess I might have to re-think that.

Bunko | 10:37 a.m. May 14, 2009

I got invited to a bunko party over 17 years ago in another state by members of my Relief Society. I thought it sounded like gambling then, too. Seems like things sort of circle around, becoming popular again in another "dispensation". We all need reminders to keep it simple. The beauty of the gospel is in the simple things.

@Mormon Soprano | 10:53 a.m. May 14, 2009

Maybe the relatives should travel long distances to hear a talk by a relative they rarely see anyway. I ward has done a very good job of eliminating the eulogies to the missionary. Every departing missionary is given a topic to speak on just like any other speaker that day. If the relatives only come for the meeting and a free lunch, then they don't really love you or the missionary.

Spot on, again, Brother Card!!!!!

One more thing | 10:56 a.m. May 14, 2009

I meant "our ward" not "I ward".

Okay, two more things.

Why is rude to expect people to attend the WHOLE church service? I think it would be rude to expect the family I am visiting to disrupt their worship to fill my belly.

Ryan | 10:59 a.m. May 14, 2009

@ Mormon Soprano
Actually, I am aware of the existence of a some of the bunko groups now, so the problem can hardly be dismissed as "so yesterday." Also, I have sat through 3 hours in a "foreign" ward on many occasions. I wonder if you realize that the way you stated it implies that going to church is a burden to be borne. People manage to make it through 3 hours of church every week without breaking for lunch. Why is it, then, that a luncheon break for missionary departures "can't be helped?" How can we say it "can't be helped" when there are many examples of people making a different choice than to have a luncheon during the remaining meetings? When I went on my mission, I requested that no one leave early; it seemed hypocritical to begin two years of trying to bring people to church by asking people to leave church early. I remember when the brethren announced the desire to end "farewells" that they also told us essentially "good luck helping your wives understand this." Old patterns die hard... but that does not mean they "can't be helped."

The faithful Stake President | 11:02 a.m. May 14, 2009

would fix an elaborate roast beef "Sunday" dinner for the prophet, or other visiting general authority. I am sure family members would also go home early from the block just to make sure everything was clean and ready. And you know what? That would be perfectly fine. We "mormons" are way too demanding of "perfection" for ourselves and others.

Sue B | 11:32 a.m. May 14, 2009

Just because SOME members choose to be worldly, doesn't mean we all have to make that CHOICE. All the money and social standing in this world are nothing compared to TRUTH and living the commandments every day and to the best of one's ability. Personally, I am thankful I am not wealthy nor do I want to appear as such. Keeping humble will help with those decisions that the WORLD tempts us with hourly. KIS Keep It Simple

rb | 12:34 p.m. May 14, 2009

You're all missing the point.
Bro. Card made mention of just a FEW examples.
The real message he is trying to convey is that we all should take a good hard look at what's going on all around us, and put things back into perspective.

Having lived outside of the Utah bubble for many years, this article - is spot-on! Apply this to everything surrounding us [the houses, the cars, the trendy clothing, etc., etc.] and you'll see what I mean.
Elder Perry was so right in his recent talk about Simplicity.

Bravo Bro. Card

Seek Me Diligently and... | 12:36 p.m. May 14, 2009

We are rewarded according to our efforts and sacrifices. Holding the Lord in higher esteem than our friends, relatives and even General Authorities who are visiting is a good idea. The GA's no doubt would love a simple dinner made ahead on Saturday or a simple crock-pot or oven baked meal. I've read stories of GA's asking for simply bread and milk.

A friend once said to me that she felt that it was okay for her and some other women to go out on Mother's Day for dinner. Rather she should have kept his commandment to show her gratitude for the blessing of being a mother.

I have noticed a big difference in my life when I make a special effort to "reverence" the Sabbath by preparing for it. The Lord is mindful of the efforts we make to be close to him.

If we draw near unto Him, He will draw near unto us.
D&C 88: 63

JanSan | 12:43 p.m. May 14, 2009

I also concure with Bro. Cards article.

I also don't think that it is just the rich that do this!!!! On my mission I served in a very wealthy area and they were some of the most humble people I ever met.

I think that this is a worldly thing (like over the top birthday party's for children), that is creeping into the lives of some of the members.

I remember once as a missionary we were going to have our mission president and his wife over for lunch after a baptism. We had both gotten our checks that day and told him we would cook him whatever he wanted. He asked for bread and milk. I think that a lot of our leaders are like this. They don't ask for great big meals but for humble fare.
We should take a lesson from them.

I just wish | 12:45 p.m. May 14, 2009

that church-wide we would stop holding activities on Saturday evenings before Fast Sunday.

All of my children began fasting by choice by the time they were eight. They loved Fast Sunday and prepared well for it. Our family was so blessed in those days! Then they became teenagers and there were dances on what I call Fast Saturday - when we should be beginning our fast and being focused - and they would be dancing and being served refreshments and not getting to bed early...what do you expect when you teach them it is no big deal???

All kinds of activities are being held on Fast Saturdays.

Really, what does that say about how important keeping the law of the fast is to us? What kind of blessings are we missing out on?

If a loved one professed their love for you, but their actions told a different story, how would you feel?

"they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me"

Sounds so sad.

Mc | 1:08 p.m. May 14, 2009

I remember stopping by the home of a neighbor whose son had just had his "farewell" earlier that day. We didn't see the father there and asked where he was. We were told that they had run out of punch for all the visitors who had come to say good-bye to their son, so the father went to the store to buy more. I know that all of us there would rather have had water or nothing than than the punch that he broke the Sabbath to get. Yet this man feared "man" more than God, seeking to please his visitors more than pleasing God. I have often thought of that experience and asked myself who am I trying to please?

ramper | 1:15 p.m. May 14, 2009

Makes sense to me. Now I have to cancel my planned Viking funeral.

Henry Drummond | 1:23 p.m. May 14, 2009

This article really brought a smile to my face especially the comments about the "competitive" hoopla surrounding a child's baptism. Just wait until your religion has been around for another thousand years or so. I've seen some Bar Mitzvah celebrations that rivaled a presidential inauguration. :-)

Unbelievable | 1:48 p.m. May 14, 2009

I can't believe this kind of stuff is going on. Missionary farewells? Slide shows and extravagant refreshments? BUNKO parties???

And this stuff ain't confined to Utah either. This is going on in wards and branches all over the place.

What kind of message does this send to investigators? Children and in particular, teenagers?

This problem was terrible in my ward growing up. I always got ostracized from the "cool people" in my ward growing up because my friends and I didn't go after church to those parties. It made no sense why you should miss Sunday School and priesthood when you could go say goodbye later. If teens who claimed to be "worthy" of their priesthood and baptism recommends ostracized me for something as stupid as that--in my eyes, they weren't worth my time or friendship anyway.

In my eyes, people ought to ask themselves, is this tradition or party helping me and others to come closer to the Savior? Will including certain things help you to honor the Sabbath and/or the sacredness of the occasion?

I think if that was done, we would see far less of this nonsense and idiocy.

Compare and Contrast | 2:01 p.m. May 14, 2009

I think Brother Card as well as everyone else compare and contrast this article with his article on keeping the sabbath day holy. In his sabbath day article he seems to be with doing pretty much whatever one feels comfortable for Sunday activities but he is a strict interpreter when it comes to Bunko and other such things.

Unbelievable part 2 | 2:09 p.m. May 14, 2009

I guess there's another point I should make...

Just because you don't do such things doesn't make you self-righteous, boring, or a prude. All of us like to party--there's just a time and a place for everything.

We should not be putting something like that in front of our responsibilities at Church, to be honest. And anyone who ostracizes or forms "cliques" to exclude others in a ward based on such things ought to be ashamed of themselves and re-evaluate their priorities.

When I look back on the direction my life took because of those decisions and the directions of the lives of the others, I would not have traded those decisions for "acceptance" in that group.

Granted, most of those "cool people" came from strong LDS families and turned out OK. But some of them did not, and I am grieved that such things may have led to the problems and other sins that are in their lives today as a result.

I hope that such things can be corrected so that potential spiritual damage that results from such things can be avoided.

Thank you for calling this out, Bro. Card!

Anonymous | 2:24 p.m. May 14, 2009

The truth hurts. Sooooo lets sweep it all under the rug like we do everything else.

frugality is gone.. | 2:38 p.m. May 14, 2009

Hey the Mormons like nice things just as much as the next guy.. nice houses, nice cars, nice boats...and nice parties. Long gone is the 'wear it out then fix it' frugal mentality of the pioneers....and that also goes for the church in general. As much as Mormons like to think of themselves as frugal, actions are far from it sometimes. I see many times where the slightly old/used item was not 'worn out' or 'repaired', but was discarded unnecessarily for the new.

Long body | 3:46 p.m. May 14, 2009

To 2:24 Sheesh, Someone needs to clean up all the heaps, lumps and fur balls out from underneath the LDS rugs. It's getting worse all the time. What are you guys trying to do build a mountain out of dust?

I think it is time to face the music and quit hiding.

To: A Man | 5:46 p.m. May 14, 2009

I'll tell you why the "rule" limiting priesthood circles to 7 or 8 is never enforced--it would result in horrible family fights. Who would get left out of the circle? Uncle Fred, Grandpa Jones? And can you imagine the questions that would arise? Aunt Edna would naturally assume that poor little brother Jake was not in the circle because of "morality" issues--he is 25 and unmarried you know.

The "7 or 8" rule is an example of a half-thought out idea that, rightfully, was quickly ignored. I love the big circles. It's a demonstration of family strength and unity.

Anonymous | 6:16 p.m. May 14, 2009

I think we've solved this problem in North Texas.

Some stakes have taken over the baptismal services. Have the stake plan them, run them, and handle the details. The only input the family will have will be the child being baptized and the priesthood holder.

The only speakers at a mission "farewell" are the 19yo and "his favorite YM leader" (or in the case of a sister, "her favorite YW leader"). Family does not speak. If there's going to be a farewell party, it's on a Sunday evening.

Anonymous | 6:17 p.m. May 14, 2009

If the only time you get to see your relatives is at a mission farewell, then you have a serious family problem.

really you guys | 7:10 p.m. May 14, 2009

You all should read your comments--it is unbelievable! You think that what you claim to do has ANYTHING to do with Christ's teachings? How deluded can you get? What I am reading sounds like what I suppose the Pharisees and Sadducees of Christ's time would have sounded had they been able to blog: each one more self-righteous than the other. Come on people, get a life. "For the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. . ."

bunko | 7:30 p.m. May 14, 2009

I agree with Brother Card on everything but the Bunko game. What is wrong with spending a few dollars to socialize with a bunch of friends. Whether it is money or gifts purchased to be given to the "winners" or "losers" how is that different than going to a movie--it costs you bigger bucks and you have nothing to show for it when you get done!! Friendships at Bunko can last forever. It is also a wonderful time to socialize with non Mormons and talk about the church and your sons or daughters going on a mission for the full two years they are gone. I did it for 10 years every month and have wonderful memories. It was a great time to relax and enjoy others company. If you did it everyday for the purpose of winning--yes you are doing it for the wrong reasons. Fishing and deer hunting cost you to purchase a liscense and sometimes you come home with nothing--I would say that yearly habit could be thought of as an addiction as well. Give me a break Brother Card.

Anonymous | 7:53 p.m. May 14, 2009

I love the gospel, I hate the culture. Lets go back to the scriptures and Prudent living.

Anonymous | 8:04 p.m. May 14, 2009

Old timers hate change. Actually, they hate everything!

JA Benson | 8:35 p.m. May 14, 2009

I agree with all, except Bunco. That is going way over the edge of ridicules as well. The prizes given at Bunco are "door prizes". Money you give is a "contribution". The game Bunco itself is boring. It is just something you do while you mingle and get to know others. As an aside, I have never played with member of the LDS Church, only neighbors.

Sharjah | 8:58 p.m. May 14, 2009

Thank you Scott for an interesting article. It has made me and others think about our approaches to living the gospel. Some find your approach too harsh, others right on, and some agree with all but their favorite contraindicated action. Regardless, it seems that most of us have been caused to think about how we live the gospel.

kenny | 9:19 p.m. May 14, 2009

I have to confess right here and now. I'm old..
Yes I had the missionary fairwell,got to plan my very own sacrament meeting which included all my friends.
I grew up in the "mission field" but lived in Utah many years.The church is the same but the culture is different. You should attend the ward I go to in Guatemala City when I'm there.Its different and 'm sure the branches in other parts of Guatemala are different.

Anonymous | 8:52 a.m. May 15, 2009

The LDS Church would be perfect if I didn't have to hang out with the Mormon's to attend.

Anonymous | 1:37 p.m. May 15, 2009

Orson calls this a "Culture that's out of control" and I think he is right. A cult-ure that picks at such nits as the details of people's sacrament meeting talks, farewell brunches, baptism programs, and card-playing is REALLY out of control!

Someone reign in Card! He is out of control!

Bill | 2:07 p.m. May 15, 2009

Don't mistake the culture for the gospel. And stop worrying about what others think of us, either those who suppose that we're too simplistic or those who think we're too extravagant. I don't think God frets the details.

jday | 3:49 p.m. May 15, 2009

Huge priesthood circles aren't about showing off. When a baby gets blessed, one of the reasons we have a circle in the first place is to have the Melchizedek priesthood holders that will support the child through his/her life support the child through the blessing and through their priesthood. The symbolism is beautiful and poignant. If there are 15 uncles, grandfathers and brothers who can stand in the circle, they should, regardless of whether people think they're showing off.

heart in deseret / body in Wisc | 7:47 p.m. May 16, 2009

Orson nailed it ... and could have added on some more heaps based on extravagent housing and fancy cars. Having grown up in Holladay Utah I look back with plenty of negative recollections of the items Orson notes. Why the need of so many of us to have the newest largest fanciest house and the most expensive most foreign car possible ? I will keep my mid 70's ranch house and my simple Ford Taurus ... and wonder why so many of us apparently really do care about the 'rat race'?

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