Deseret News | LDS Church investigates possible ordinances performed for Obama's late mother

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LDS Church investigates possible ordinances performed for Obama's late mother

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Honor | 3:31 p.m. May 6, 2009

Why can't the mormons learn to honor and respect others believes. How would the mormons feel if an other church was to perform proxy babtisms for the mormon dead ancestors joining them into the Devil's church. Of course they can choose from themselves once they are in hell. It is time for the mormons to mind their own business and leave others in peace.

I am a Wicca | 3:38 p.m. May 6, 2009

We believe in doing baptisms for the dead. I have many friends who give us names of people who have been baptized by the Mormon Church and we baptize them into the Wicca religion. We figure that these people will be able to make their own decision.

UtahTom | 3:42 p.m. May 6, 2009

Getting permission from the relatives of the dead is not always possible. And, what if the living relatives' wishes differ from the wishes of those on the other side? What if you're on the other side and want to accept the work done for you but it wasn't done because your living brother "Fred" said no? If you don't want to accept the work at that time, you just say "no thanks".

Comments continue below

Hose nose | 3:47 p.m. May 6, 2009

Why don't Mormons attend to their own business.

Witless | 3:49 p.m. May 6, 2009

To Dixie Dan: That argument is a tired meaningless one. You completely dismiss that proxy baptisms DO offend others and are disrespectful to that person's personal beliefs. Why do you think that is okay?

If the LDS Church truly believes that others shouldn't be offended by this practice, why then when you do research on the Church's FamilySearchOrg website are the baptism and endowment data NOT available to the general public? One must be a member to access that information. The Church obviously doesn't want just anyone to have access to that information. If it's no big deal that non-LDS folks are baptized for the dead, why then the secrecy?

Bro Chuck Schroeder | 3:52 p.m. May 6, 2009

My question is have you ever been on a Youth Temple trip? They have to take at least 8 Melchezidek Endowed Priesthood holders with them to do the baptisms. They don't have a bunch of cards with them to do this. Any cards given them come from members of their ward who have done the research or their own family's.

The priesthood holders do the baptisms and confirmations, not the youth. Therefore, what you described does not happen at all. It is totally misinformation that you have given. The only other names they have are those given to the temple to do. Please don't add to the confusion and hatefulness of the rite that is sacred to us as Latter Day Saints.

rach | 3:56 p.m. May 6, 2009

I would be quite upset to find out in death I was being baptised into a church without my permission.
How would mormons feel if they in death were baptised without permission into let's say Islam or, Pegansim? Kind of feel robbed huh?
If I was in any way religious, I would condemn the LDS church to hell for doing that. Baptism is a choice, you can't baptise a person in life so you wait until death - how sneaky. What kind of lesson does that teach your children? Disrespect, dishonesty and cheating? - How very christian.

Julie | 3:58 p.m. May 6, 2009

This is the first time I've read a discussion that has not been filled with vitriol and I thank you all for that.

I, too, feel that members of the LDS church shouldn't baptize people without the family's permission. I, however, wouldn't mind having some kind of religious work done for me by people of other faiths. If you want to marry me to a lesbian after I'm dead, it's okay as it doesn't impact how I believe or feel. I believe that most people still do things for the right reasons. I'm not naive, but I've lived in a few places in the world and people everywhere are basically good and decent.

I do hope that members of the LDS church, myself included, can be more sensitive to others and beliefs that are considered different than ours. I have found good in every church and people I have attended and met, and agree with many of their teachings. I hope we as people will see how we are the same more than how we are different.

Mike | 4:00 p.m. May 6, 2009

Most of you have missed the point. This is all about the hereafter, not this earth. When someone dies and their spirits go to the other side to await the resurrection, they gain some insight and knowlege that we here on earth don't have the benefit of having (the veil is removed from their minds). They will know Jesus is indeed the Christ and know the true nature of our Father in Heaven. If this is true then they won't object to the ordinance performed on their behalf. In fact they will welcome it.

In other words, so what.

Witless | 4:00 p.m. May 6, 2009

To those who insist that no one should be offended by this practice because the decedent can simply choose in the afterlife to accept or reject, that argument is a tired meaningless one. You completely dismiss that proxy baptisms DO offend others and are disrespectful to that person's personal beliefs. Why do you think that is okay?

If the LDS Church truly believes that others shouldn't be offended by this practice, why then when you do research on the Church's genealogy website are the baptism and endowment data NOT available to the general public? One must be a member to access that information. The Church obviously doesn't want just anyone to have access to that information. If it's no big deal that non-LDS folks are baptized for the dead, why then the secrecy?

awsomeron | 4:01 p.m. May 6, 2009

B.O.'s Mom, last name was only briefly Obama then it was something else, then it was Dunham.

So it might have gotten over and through the system with out anyone knowing it.

Who is to say that a relative did not do the Temple Work. Some where there might be a member.

We do both Family File and Temple File. Temple File comes from obit lists, and birth records. We have the largest Data Base in the world for this. This evening my daughter 18 will go work in the Stake Family History Center before Institute Class and get some more names ready.

The persons whos work is being done does not have to accept the work. It is merely an offer for progression. According to US you cannot progress to the highest levels of Heaven with out it. Realize that it is only US however who have that enlightenment.

For everyone else Basic Salvation (Accepting Christ as Personal Savior and being Baptized {usually} by immersion, pretty much covers it.

What I think that this will mostly be is misunderstood, by the General Public. As well as those that do not think Mormons are Christians.

Re:Commentor 2:46 | 4:19 p.m. May 6, 2009

The early church mention a lot of things as Paul did in the Church at Corinth like heretical church practices. Paul wrote other letters that were not inspired(like is laundry list).The key is what was cannonized) An example of The Nag Hammadi Library,
"Gospel of Thomas" which is not really a Gospel,but a group of Logions-Logos or sayings. Example Logion (114)Simon Peter said,to them,"Let Mary leave us,for women are not worthy of life". These are Gnostic writings that do not belong in the cannon. there were strict guidlines for being considered inspired cannon. The Bible could be re-constructed from quotes from 2nd-4th century father. I have a copy of Clement of Alexandria Greek quotes from John 1-4,14,18 and there right on codex vaticanus B

Roots | 4:40 p.m. May 6, 2009

I wonder what president OBAMA has to say about all this news????? I bet the President could care less. Perhaps though it is a good way for him to get his genealogy work done without lifting a finger to it.

Bad PR | 4:47 p.m. May 6, 2009

Interesting to note that most of the LDS comments are no big deal & others shouldn't be offended. However, most non LDS comments are the complete opposite. In that the church is continuing to try to spread the gospel to all, shouldn't the members listen to the opinions of the nonLDS on this topic and not be so dismissive of their concerns - this is bad PR for the church.

the truth | 4:50 p.m. May 6, 2009

Work for dead, to "save" them, have been going on for very long time and variuos cultures all around the world,

which lead one to believe it is all based on a very ancient common truth or knowledge.

FOr example, there is an ancient chinese rite that marries a dead son to a living women so that he will be saved.

Why people find this offensive is very odd.

since as in mormonism the work is only GOOD IF the dead person accepts it,

otherwise it has no effect, no binding power.

JohnB | 4:54 p.m. May 6, 2009

What confuses me is that it is ok for LDS to be offended by HBO series big love with the endowment ceremony, but it's not ok for family memebers to be offended when someone baptizes their deceased family members??

I'm offended too! | 4:54 p.m. May 6, 2009

I've made my choices in this life while alive, and dont want anyone messing with my religion now or after I'm gone. It's amazingly arrogant to me that LDS will diddle with my beliefs after I'm gone. Believe me, I will not get to heaven and say "I screwed up...I shoulda been a Mormon" Not gonna happen, and I don't want the slowdown on the way up.

Ignorance Justified(Im back) | 5:03 p.m. May 6, 2009

I did not say when you are dead you are dead. The scriptures do have some pretty tricky parts but you have to hang on to what you know and realize what God is saying. What I mean is once you die you die physically and your new life in christ has begun. If you read chapter 15 in corinthians it says just that. You can't begin until you die. God gives us one shot on this Earth and you have to know that. In the bible it says he will separate the sheep from the goats. Or one of my favorites. Depart from me for you did not know me. I don't see in there where it says hang out here with me until someone baptizes you and then you can come in. If it were that way why would there be a hell? and please don't tell me there isn't one I think God makes it perfectly clear where sinners go. You can water it down and sugar coat it but God and the bible stand firm. Sinners are dead for good unless saved on Earth. Not in heaven or anywhere else.

Burt | 5:10 p.m. May 6, 2009

If a person was a bad guy in this life what makes any of you think that he/she are going say ok and be baptized on the other side. Something doesn't make any sense to me about this whole work for the dead deal? Why doesn't everyone have the right to accept it on the other side when it would be much easier when there are no trials? This all seems mighty confusing as doesn't make a bit of sense, as does the Mormon religion. Too confusing. I agree, I don't think Pres-Obama would give a hoot one way or another. It means nothing.

curtis | 5:25 p.m. May 6, 2009

what the big deal if he was white you wouldn't here anything about, but since Obama is the president and he black and mother is white it a big deal.

curtis

RMcG | 5:29 p.m. May 6, 2009

Various:

1) The Extraction programs focus upon sources of information about people who have been dead for many years. They do not contradict the policy that members are supposed to submit the names of their own family members.

2) I promise never to submit the name "Anonymous" for Temple ordinances.

3) While some people have consciously chosen to reject the restored Gospel, the overwhelming majority of those who have died, even in recent times, have not had the opportunity to hear it at all. Thus, the opportunity needs to be extended to all.

4) I wouldn't be the least bit offended if someone were to have a mass for my soul, light a candle for me, say prayers or posthumously baptise me into some other faith. Such gestures could only be well-meaning ones, and as a rational person they would provide no reason for me to be offended.

A mock ceremony for the purpose of parodying somethiing that is sacred would, of course, be another matter.

curtis | 5:37 p.m. May 6, 2009

what the big deal, I will tell you the big deal since Obama is black and the President and his mom is white that the big deal if that what he want to do for his mom so be it, it no body business.

curtis

re - Mike | 4:00 p.m | 6:08 p.m. May 6, 2009

"When someone dies and their spirits go to the other side to await the resurrection, they gain some insight and knowlege that we here on earth don't have the benefit of having. They will know Jesus is indeed the Christ and know the true nature of our Father in Heaven."

how do you know this is true? have you died and seen it? and if not, how do you know that people can choose in the end?

what if your ritual forces the other person to become mormon? what if there are sections of heaven for different religions, and now that person is stuck in mormon-land when all their loved ones are in their own section? you don't have a clue - you only know what you've read and been told.

you are playing russian roulette with peoples souls. Doesn't that bother you? I don't know how you actually sleep at night!

Re: Wiccan /necromancia | 6:14 p.m. May 6, 2009

I use to know several wiccans in a local coven,One thing to realize you probaly beleive you are practicing white magic instead of black but in Gods eyes it all leads to the same place. Regardless of it being mediums,casting spells,consorting with the dead (baptising the dead)these things are detestable to the Lord(Jehovah) Deuteronomy 18:10-12

flintlock | 6:18 p.m. May 6, 2009

I have a friend & work colleague who is a staunch Catholic. When I am experiencing problems he tells me he will 'pray for me'. When he experiences problems he asks that I 'pray for him'. We respect one another's beliefs (I am LDS) and gladly accept the prayers so offered on the other's behalf. I pray for my atheist sister, my Anglican mother (who requests this), my less-active LDS children, my friends of all (or no) denominations. Is it so bad to care enough about others that you make the effort to do what you can for them, according to your personal beliefs, either here or in the hereafter? Is Pres Obama, an advocate of individual, civil and religious rights, really offended by this? Has anyone asked him? Or is it just the gossip-mongers stirring up more dissent? Just try to understand and respect one another for once. Stop arguing and criticising over every issue. The world might be a better place for it, and there might be a lot more smiling and a lot less frowning. Christian, Muslim, Jew, whatever... I gladly accept your honest efforts on my part. Thanks to all of you.

post-mormon joe | 6:23 p.m. May 6, 2009

Who do you think you're kidding? When I was still a member, I dunked countless times for people who were no relation to me or to anyone else in the ward or the stake. And the policy of baptizing ALL of humanity was spelled out by Boyd K. Packer in 1975, check your back issues of Ensign. That was three years before blacks were allowed in the priesthood, by the way....

RE: re - Mike | 6:28 p.m. May 6, 2009

That was a pretty illogical series of question. If the Mormon's baptism for the dead has an effect on the afterlife, then they know what they are talking about.

If they know what they are talking about, then when they say that a person on the other side has a choice, I think I will believe them or I will throw out the whole concept.

SS | 6:39 p.m. May 6, 2009

It seems to me the pastor was reading the New International Version of the Bible. The passage there standing alone (not in context of the entire chapter) seems to support the pastor's view. The problem I have with it is that the NIV is an interpretation, not a translation. I prefer my own interpretation, right or wrong.

Guess work in the making | 6:55 p.m. May 6, 2009

How come Mormons think they know everything about the hereafter and what goes on? Ummm, I don't think so, not anymore than any of the rest of us.

TO DIXIE DAN | 7:01 p.m. May 6, 2009

Go for it, it matters not to me or Gordon
B. Hinckley, for he knows what God will and will not except. It matters not so if it makes you fill batter then do the work, he will have the right to except or reject and I know he will not accept what you do for you have not the proper authority to do this type of work

TO Ignorance Justified | 7:11 p.m. May 6, 2009

I don't know what bible you read for the King James version tells a different story also read 1 James wish tells you what to do if you won't to know what is and is not right do what James tells us to do if we won't to understand the word of God. Being a minister of a nether faith course you will disagree and I find no offence, but I do believe you are the one who is missing to point not us. The bible does tell of doing baptism for the dead.

TO Brother Chuck Schroeder | 7:19 p.m. May 6, 2009

I don't know what your ward does or if you are even a member but I can tell you this every ward I have been in, and that is many as I am a 21 year Army Vet and have been around the world, the youth do know why they are doing baptism for the dead and I have done baptism for my ancestors as well as many, many other members I know so I question whether you are truly a member or someone who is out to try and bring down the church and I can tell you this it will never happen.

Surprise, Surprise | 7:26 p.m. May 6, 2009

I think their will be a whole lot of surprised people when they reach the Pearly Gates.

And when they are asked what good they did on earth, I'm sure that most people will get through based on their dedication to Jesus Christ a true desire to help people and not being judgmental.

Marleen | 8:22 p.m. May 6, 2009

God is not going to keep any of his children out of any higher kingdom just because they are not LDS... that truly is a very selfish and narcissist thought. God knows his children and who is righteous among them and who is not righteous, and not all LDS people are righteous. Just because LDS think they are (THE SPECIAL ONES)and Gods gift to this earth, is totally wrong and a narcissistic point of view. We are all humans and 'ALL' come from the same God.

Re: 2:46 pm commenter | 9:17 p.m. May 6, 2009

I think what is needed here is for someone to actually post the exact extra-Biblical quotes of these early church fathers that relate to 1Cor.15:29 and baptism for the dead that you mention in your post. Or maybe someone has already compiled them in a book? Has anyone ever written a scholarly study of this subject? Thank you very much.

Anonymous | 10:07 p.m. May 6, 2009

Old Russian Proverb: We live as long as we are remembered. - Cool - I hope my great, great grandchildren and other people think of me.

Why is baptism preformed on behalf of the dead: 1 Peter 3:4 5: Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6: For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

This is wonderful that those who are dead do have a chance to hear the gospel.

howhurley | 5:54 a.m. May 7, 2009

If you don't understand why we do it, naturally you'll question it.

FIND OUT why we do it.

Then you'll understand.

To I am a Wicca | 8:00 a.m. May 7, 2009

Oh my!! I am so offended!! Whatever will I do? I'm going to be forced to be a wiccan after I die. I'll worry about this the rest of my life.

Who Cares? | 8:07 a.m. May 7, 2009

I could care less if someone from another religion did baptisms for my ancestors. I am quite certain they would be meaningless so why would I care? For some reason there are a lot of people who look for excuses to get their panties in a bunch over the LDS Church.

Rob | 8:20 a.m. May 7, 2009

When we have family things going on I call my one sister and tell her to start calling her prayer people. Once she told me she had all these people from different churches praying for us when something happened and we needed the help. I never once got offended and was grateful. So the more help from Heavely sources the better, I say.

Not a Necessary Practice | 8:49 a.m. May 7, 2009

NO ONE will miss the opportunity after they die to hear and accept the gospel and have their ordinances performed if they so choose. It makes NO DIFFERENCE whether or not a living member is able to do it for them on the earth. Their are literally millions and millions of people who have died who will never have their work done by a living member and each of them will have the same opportunity to hear and accept and have their work done.

Therefore - baptism for the dead is a service opportunity for the living member. I expect the Church will change the policy to better verify names submitted are actually submitted by a relative. But if embarrassing events like this continue it would not be a stretch to see this practice discontinued. Because again, it is simply a service opportunity for the living members not essential for the salvation of the dead - they will still have their work done if they accept the gospel.

If members today were to go back in time to the late 1800s they would see a VERY DIFFERENT church. Things change. Sometimes due to pressure. Don't be surprised if this changes too.

To Marlene: | 9:56 a.m. May 7, 2009

You stated: "God is not going to keep any of his children out of any higher kingdom just because they are not LDS... that truly is a very selfish and narcissist thought. God knows his children and who is righteous among them and who is not righteous, and not all LDS people are righteous."

Youre right, not all LDS are righteous. And yes, God does know his children and he certainly loves all of them regardless of religious affiliation. However, it is He who set the standard for admittance into his kingdom and maintaining those standards does not make those serving God selfish or narcissistic. Unlike some Universities which would never admit me into their classes because I cannot meet their academic requirements no matter how hard I try, Gods kingdom has no such exclusive requirements that his children cannot achieve. Being baptized by one having His authority after proper repentance is all that is required. It doesnt make one better to have done this, it does make one obedient. The invitation is extended to all his children and there is no expiration date.

IMHO | 10:07 a.m. May 7, 2009

Is there a place where people who aren't LDS can go to see who has been baptized, who baptized them, and when, where, ect ???

I dont mind this being done... But I think it would be interesting to know/read about... maybe if non members can be somehow connected there wouldn't be so much animosity about it...

realitycheck | 10:12 a.m. May 7, 2009

to - Re: Wiccan /necromancia | 6:14 p.m
["One thing to realize you probaly beleive you are practicing white magic instead of black but in Gods eyes it all leads to the same place."]

["Regardless of it being mediums,casting spells,consorting with the dead (baptising the dead)these things are detestable to the Lord(Jehovah) Deuteronomy 18:10-12"]

don't know where Deuteronomy 18:10-12 comes from, but if it's the bible, why do mormons baptize the dead when it's in the bible not to? Says "these things are detestable to the Lord".....

realitycheck | 10:19 a.m. May 7, 2009

to - awsomeron | 4:01 p.m
["The persons whos work is being done does not have to accept the work."]

HOW DO YOU KNOW?? have you died and seen it? your arrogance is astounding. YOU HAVE NO CLUE. You simply know what you've been told. Not being offensive - NO ONE really knows - so given it is all a mystery, what if the entire mormon religion is a plot by the devil to steal everyone's soul? And you are helping him?

that's the problem. You think because you read it in a book and your leaders told you so, then it must be true. but you REALLY don't know.

given that, you need to mess with your own soul only. messing with other's souls is THE WORST THING YOU CAN DO.

totally unclear to me why you all can't see that. I think it's because you are so convinced you are right... but what if you're wrong? think about it..

JT | 10:23 a.m. May 7, 2009

After I divorced my husband, his sister-in-law joined the church and found out that someone had done temple ordinances for their deceased Mother. My Sister-in-law assumes that I did it and she has started quite a battle with me over it. I never did put their Moms name into the temple! I don't know who did or would have! What a pain this has been. There are so many hard feelings and as a jack mormon, I'm not turning in names for anyone. I think the church needs to be more careful about who turns in names and does the ordinances. I know it has been a headache for me! Does anyone know if there is a way to find out who submitted the names for ordinances? It may restore some peace for me!

Nate | 10:30 a.m. May 7, 2009

To "To Marlene" why does he need something like baptism? If it is God who sets the standard instead of you or someone else telling God what his standard will be. Why does the standard have to be so darn obnoxious, hateful, and plain offensive?

to : dan knudsen | 10:36 a.m. May 7, 2009

i completley agree with you. my grandfather's family are dedicated catholics. he converted to the lds faith in the 60s and served as bishop. at his funeral, his uncle, a catholic pastor, offered a prayer at his funeral. it was a thoughtful gesture. even though his uncle knew of his faith, he still ofered him a prayer and blessing. i don't agree with people doing work without permission of the person's family. if this was done merely because she was a famous person, it is wrong. however, if the person who had done this did it out of mere caring for another sou;l, she did nothing wrong, she merely went against a policy, not a commandment. i hope all of you on this blog who are not lds could at least understand the importance of all this. if you knew a person was good and that the only thing that would keep that person from reaching the highest level of heaven was this temple work, would you not do it? if you wouldn't, you would be extremely selfish.

Doesn't bother me | 10:48 a.m. May 7, 2009

As an LDS member (and convert to the church), it wouldn't bother me one bit if someone of another religion did a ceremony for me after I died.

What DOES bother me, is when religions think it's too late for anyone at death, that your fate is sealed even if you didn't know any better concerning whatever is required for their salvation.

The fact that other Christian religions DON'T believe that a person's spirit after death would have a choice to accept the truth and repent is a big reason why I'm LDS.

Re 9:56 | 11:04 a.m. May 7, 2009

And WHO ARE YOU to say what God thinks?

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