What if? | 7:59 a.m. April 28, 2009 What a terribly insensitive and
bigoted statement.You should be ashamed.When you make
the statement, "It offers nothing" you are ignorant of the fact that many many
gays contributed many good things to society, in history, culture, the arts,
science, medicine.Your statement is absurd.Moreover,
when you make the statement about anyone group "not offering anything" --- are
you referring to children?Many segments of society don't offer
children ---Granted, you are against homosexuality. If you are a
Christian, your words are burning with hate and blatant ignorance.Like I said, many segments of society depend on society for their existence
--- the extremely invalid, those in hospices, etc. etc. That was a
sorry excuse to spread hate as I have ever heard.
Dear homosexual brothers and sisters: I am happy for you that you have found
satisfaction in a homosexual relationship. But I am sad because I know your
happiness cannot last. When I vote against homosexual marriage it isn't out of
hate. It is out of love, knowing that I want you to be truly happy, not
temporarily happy. It isn't about limiting homosexuals rights or even about God
sending you to hell. It is about a true path to happiness that God has shown,
and knowing if we don't follow it, our happiness will be less than it could have
been. As a believer in God, I cannot in good conscience vote for something that
will in the end limit your happiness. Because I love you! And I don't want to
see you hurt or dissapointed. Of course I am not the judge. God will do that and
he will be merciful taking into account all circumstances of this life. So I
invite you, as Michael Glatze did, to sincerely talk to God and see if He can
show you an even happier path than the one you're on. He did for me. Try it!
My professor at the U asked the question, "If there were a magic button that if
pushed would kill all the homosexuals in the world, would you push it? He then
posed the same question regarding a heterosexual button. The conclusion is that
the homosexual button would kill about 10 percent of the population, however the
heterosexual button would end mankind. In those kinds of questions you can
better see which arguments are false. Homosexuality is a parasite on humanity.
It offers nothing, but damages its host- the thing it relies on for its very
@re: Sally | 3:38 p.m. April 24, 2009 "speaking about nature
preferring heteros" --- It's not quite the line you want to give an
infertile heterosexual couple.Nonetheless,when you make
the argument about children in same-sex families.And the number of
children who go to foster homes because they are not adopted.Makes
you kind of think? Are you really doing it for their best interest?Children from same gender families grow up just as well as children from
Truth 7:38So all those couples who didn't enter into a covenant with
God don't actually have a "marriage?" Presumably that includes anyone who isn't
a Mormon, right, since only Mormons have valid priesthood authority to covenant
with God. Even if you are willing to make some excuse as to how
other groups can have authority, anyone who didn't think they were entering a
covenant with God when they were joined (secularists, non-religious, and the
average Joe) only have a "fake marriage" - because you can't enter into a
contract/covenant without knowing that you have. Good luck telling
the world that only Mormons are married! And they say the gays have an agenda!
Marraige is about making a covenant with God, for a man and a woman to become
one. Even if gays think they can get states to allow the country to give them
the term, they will never get the recognition they want. Why? Because they
can't make the covenant with God. Homosexuality will never be normal. Thats
not to be mean or hateful and its not hateful, its the truth. If gays want
civil rights for them and their partners let them do it let them have it, but
beyond that sorry. There are plenty of people who will stand up for their God
and will stand up for the covenants that they make with God or hope to make with
God when they find their wife or husband.
Re: How longFrom the APA -What causes a person to have
a particular sexual orientation?There is no consensus among
scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual,
bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the
possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on
sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude
that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many
think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience
little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation."Further, you wrote,"There are studies on this, but they are swept
under the rug by the politically correct mind police."What studies
are these?There have been movements and studies submitted, but they
are typically anecdotal studies, studies that are meant to repair and make gays
- which they classify as "a confused heterosexual," and studies that are
published in places where the ultimate goal is to save people spiritually.Where are the professional scientific studies when they are masked with
a layer of 'you need to be saved?"
You wrote,"To the day I die, I will never believe all gays were born
that way. Too many friends who think they are gay now who were abused as
teenagers by older gay men. There are studies on this, but they are swept under
the rug by the politically correct mind police."What studies are
these?For as long as we have talking about this topic I keep hearing
about "there are studies."When I ask for the evidence. No one puts
it forth.Usually the topic reverts back to anecdotal stories."I have a friend who was abused" etc.There are gays who were
abused. Yes.There are gays who were not abused. How do you explain
that?There are heterosexuals who were abused, and they are not gay.
How do you explain that?The APA continues to publish articles that
refute the very idea. In fact, time after time, the research shows the
contrary, that there is no single reason or cause as to what makes people be
gay.Granted, that anyone was abused is a terrible thing. I am not
dismissing that, but we also have to look at the scientific evidence and
5:07 - How have you been persecuted? Maybe you have, but I suspect heckling,
teasing, and even derogatory comments form "persecution" in your mind. Please.
That is the hyper-sensitivity LDS people have fallen into. Yeah, people say
jokes about me, some even nasty, but that's not persecution.Furthermore, I didn't say the church was responsible for 52% of CA voters'
opinions. I expressly said it amounted to the 5% that made the difference,
pushing it from a narrow loss to a narrow win.Finally, I did
acknowledge a coalition - but I stand by my comparison of that to the coalition
formed before the Iraq war. The other parties were inconsequential. Our church
provide more funding, man power, and logistical support than the other
organizations combineed! Coalition indeed, Mr. Bush!
No civil unions | 11:25 a.m. April 25, 2009You wrote,"If you let people have civil unions, they will not stop at that.They will want more and more rights until heterosexuals have no
rights."You seriously believe that?That is just too
amazing.I have not seen a movement to ban heterosexual marriage.Have you?Is there a movement to ban heterosexual marriage or
religious freedom, for that matter, in places where same sex marriage is
legal?You are so paranoid - the reason exactly why campaigns are
sold to entice you and people like you to believe things such as "if we allow
gay marriage, look what might happen next"
How long 9:14"But they are on here comparing themselves to the civil
rights fight for African Americans and I just can't stomach that. Everyone wants
to play the victim."Seems like a number of people want to compare
themselves to the civil rights movements.I think to some degree,
this issue will have to be won on its merits - the gay equality cause.However, civil rights leaders have always borrowed from past leaders.Martin Luther King quoted Ghandi, Ghandi quoted someone else, etc.However, LDS leaders have also compared religious causes to civil rights
causes. Elder Ballard quoted,As M. J. Sobran recently wrote: A
religious conviction is now a second-class conviction, expected to step
deferentially to the back of the secular bus, and not to get uppity about it.
(Human Life Review, Summer 1978, pp. 5859.) So you're right, if
people like to play victim.But if they enter the political play,
they cannot say, "the California voters did it."The justification
sometimes is a play with semantics."The Mormon Church did not enter
into it. The members did."When people say "The Mormons entered into
it" the finger points at voters.
You wrote,"I used to be open to gay marriage but with all of the
hateful posts (and actions) against the LDS Church, I will do everything I can
to oppose gay rights now."Conversely, the aftermath, the rallies,
the opinions, the talks people with each other, were those in every way
legal?"yes" as well.What is the best way to address
these "differences?"Civilly.Sometimes flat-out denying
some of the data defeats the purpose of engagement.As it is, it
seems more political than rational because the age issue comes into play - Is it possible that younger people see the issue for what it is? Is it possible that we let religious beliefs dictate a political
decision, because - when we take a side and say "it's a moral issue" --- there
are lots and lots of moral decisions (from a religious perspective) --- and we
don't put those on the ballot.
Liberals 9:09 You wrote,"I used to be open to gay
marriage but with all of the hateful posts (and actions) against the LDS Church,
I will do everything I can to oppose gay rights now."It stands to
being questioned, are we open to entertaining the notion of same sex marriage
because it is the right thing to do, or are we guilty of the very same
generalizations that people make about anyone group?Everyone has
biases and prejudices based on experiences about anyone group.The
Mormons are (fill in the blank)gays are (fill in the blank)and
so on and so forth.When you stand back and think, who did the crimes
against the Churches? Is it possible that all gay people stood up and committed
property damage against the Church?True, there have been things
which have been said --- by both camps, but political opinions are one thing,
legal property damage is a whole different ball game.During the
height of Prop 8, people were taking to the streets and asking,"Is
what the Mormon Church did legal?"The answer they were looking for
Re PolygamyI seriously doubt polygamy will come up again.The
FLDS have trouble enough with it as it is. Other communities may have as well.
The number of people who want polygamy are secluded and they seldom make an
effort to become part of mainstream America. They want to remain outside.Other 19th century polygamous organizations, not just LDS, were also
secluded and they were short-lived. They also lived outside the main commune of
American society.Why would mainstream America want to give
'polygamous activists' rights to marriage when those groups don't want to be
part of main culture.In fact, they live cult status lives.Further, with the recent FLDS stories in the media, the LDS Church has tried
extremely hard to distance itself from cults who want to promote polygamy.
Re: 1:46 | 5:07 p.m. April 25, 2009 You are dismissing the power of
a campaign.Of course the people did not vote because "the LDS Church
said so" but people did vote, and the campaign was begun, from the ground up,
knowing, that if the LDS Church did not join the coalition, it was doomed to
fail.The strategizing, the marketing of the campaign, the financing
of the campaign --- it's all strategic and sold as a total package "to protect
traditional marriages."Protect them from what, exactly?That's the big vague nebolous idea that no one can understand.It's
selling the idea that traditional values are under attack.A number
of unrelated ideas were put together and the public is told "look, here, see!,
this is what will happen if gays are allowed their special rights"And the people fall for it. Why? Because the fancy stories and the make
believe that those stories hold validity when in fact, when you research, they
are hollow and disingenuous.As to "sending the missionaries over
there" you are confusing the topic again, meddling religion with politics.
We haven't been persecuted since the early days of Salt Lake? That's not true -
happens all the time where I live. Maybe not tarring and feathering. But other
ways.As far as your claim that the LDS were primarily responsible
for the passage of Prop 8, if you believe that, please contact me about a bridge
I have listed on eBay.MANY churches and other groups led the effort
to pass Prop 8. Yes, the church was one of those groups. But if you believe
52% of Californians did what they did because the "Mormons said so," we'd better
send more missionaries there asap.
2:27 re: anonymous - I get the conspiratorial mechanism you think they'll use,
but what rights will they take away?Are they going to push to take
away marriage from you? Will they push to ban you from having children? Will
they push to take away your right to vote? Will they push to make you slaves?
Will they push to enact laws that ____________(any other absurdity will work -
you choose!)? I'm not sure what you are afraid they will take, and
what agenda they would have to do so? I'm intrigued because your
idea is far more conspiracy theory, alien abduction, illuminati, than most of
what is on this board. "Illuminate" me!
Polygamy will be a hot topic in the near future. If gay marriage is allowed,
polygamy will be on its heels. Still, there are definately differences. The
question will be if the state can show that polygamy has more adverse effects
than same-sex marriage, identifying valid state interests that will be protected
by banning it. (They currently haven't been able to show that with same-sex
marriage). Does anyone else think it's hilarious that the very
moment the LDS Church finally denounces polygamy, essentially saying their early
leaders were adulterous just to get modern approval, it may actually become
legal?! How funny is that! Think they'll flipflop back and support polygamy to
vindicate their early leaders? I doubt it now that they've made such a strong
stance against the fundamentalists and made such a fuss of marriage being
between 1 man / 1 woman.
Geezers hating on gays as usual. So embarrassing, so last century.
Sure... homosexuals will accomplish the feat of taking away rights from straight
people the same way they have pushed their agenda so far- through well-funded
legal action and activist judges.
11:25 - How does giving any rights to homosexuals take anything away from
heterosexuals?I've hear that one alot. "Give them rights and
they'll take ours." I don't know of one gay person that has ever wanted to take
rights away from straight people. This is typical of the unfounded fear people
using to fight this issue. This isn't a zero sum game.
the perfect slogan for his presidential campaign. Why would he "come out" and
support civil unions for homosexuals but not civil unions for polygamists? Does
he not care about the thousands and thousands of otherwise law-abiding
polygamists in his state that live in constant fear of their families being torn
apart? It seems like polygamists have been through much more recent and violent
persecution than homosexuals (i.e. last summer in Texas). Why the
selective alternative lifestyle support Johnny boy? Are you afraid of standing
up for an unpopular group that deserves more support than homosexuals because
they're actually benefiting society through procreation? Huntsman,
if you don't support polygamist "rights" with as much conviction as you do
homosexual "rights" then you are just an opportunistic coward.
I do live outside Utah. We haven't been persecuted since the early days of Salt
Lake. Furthermore, while we like to trumpet our ancestors' persecution, we
casually forget to mention our own faults and contributions to our persecution.
It wasn't so lopsided as we pretend. Nevertheless, that persectution was
unjustified, but it was many years ago.Why are we an easy target?
Because we lead the battle cry! The primary influence in Prop 8 was our
church's involvment. The MAJORITY of CA residents would have voted down Prop 8
according to all opinion polls. Then our church got involved. Through our
campaigning, contributions, and labor, we single-handedly altered about 5% of
the vote. Please, don't insult other church members and the gay community by
claiming their was a "Coalition on Marriage." It was no more a coalition than
the one the U.S. had entering Iraq. The truth is, I understand why
our church did what it did - even if I personally disagree. But we should at
least own up to our role and be prepared for the backlash. All I see is our
church once again claiming persecution for something we instigated.
No civil unionsThat is some slippery slope youre preachin there... care to show
exactly how the all powerful gays will accomplish this miraculous feat???talk about
I don't think anyone needs to be "cured," nor do I think everyone needs to think
the way I do. In fact, it's better to have "checks and balances" with both
liberals and conservatives. My point is that many liberals in Utah just want to
be contrarian. Many of those who post on here come knowing they will find LDS
and conservatives and want to stir the pot.I think any abuse or
vandalism against homosexuals is wrong and as far as I'm aware, little or none
of that abuse was done by members of the LDS Church and if it was, they were
certainly acting against the teaching of the Church.On the other
hand, I know for a fact that homosexuals have done damage to church buildings
and take out their frustration on the LDS. Their problem is not Mormons. 60%+
of Americans oppose their right to marry. But why worry about that? Why not
take it out on an easy target?And 40 years of persecution is
regrettable, but nothing compared to the persecution heaped on the Church and
its members. Come live outside of Utah for a while.
If you let people have civil unions, they will not stop at that. They will want more and more rights until heterosexuals have no rights.
You - "There are a few liberals in Utah (my brother is one) who just like to go
against the grain."Your rationale is impeccable! There can't be any
genuine disagreements or valid points by liberals, they just want to go against
the grain. Eventually you'll cure them liberals right? Once they figure out
how to conform the world will be better right? Yup, I'm LDS and apparently I'm
liberal by your definition. Glad you explained my condition.You - "I used to be open to gay marriage but with all of the hateful posts
(and actions) against the LDS Church, I will do everything I can to oppose gay
rights now."Again, impeccable! Dismiss the merits of gay marriage
because a few people opposed our church, or even did hateful things. Never mind
the physical assualts, verbal abuse, and vandalism committed over the past 40
YEARS against homosexual. Does that mean all mormons are bad? In the end,
you'll probably cure those gays too, huh? I'll bet your answer is that they
just need to listen to the missionaries huh! Priceless!
@9:09 - All the hateful posts against the LDS Church? Are you kidding? People
who are not LDS are rightly concerned that the LDS Church is trying to legislate
how they can live, but nobody is making general attacks against the LDS
Church.LDS people get hyper-sensitive when anyone else says they
don't accept their views as a standard for all of society. But those same LDS
people will go on to call homosexuals sinnners, abnormal, disgusting,
destructive to society, even criminals. I swear, I will never understand your
selective mindset. LDS people have beaten that "persecution" card to death,
conventiently pulling it out when anyone opposes them. You use it as a sword,
not a shield.@9:14 - Whether it is a choice or a condition is
irrelevant. Everyone should take a note from the Iowa Supreme Court decision.
There is NO valid state interest served by denying marriage to same-sex couples.
That's the bottom line. All attempts to demonstrate any harm to society have
failed, both on this board and in courts, time after time.
If all gays wanted is their "dues," and they'd get out of the way, I think we'd
all be able to agree on that and move on.But they are on here
comparing themselves to the civil rights fight for African Americans and I just
can't stomach that. Everyone wants to play the victim.To the day I
die, I will never believe all gays were born that way. Too many friends who
think they are gay now who were abused as teenagers by older gay men. There are
studies on this, but they are swept under the rug by the politically correct
mind police. Just as there are studies that prove same sex encounters in the
animal kingdom have to do with domination not attraction. Those are also
quelled. Heck, DN probably won't even post this! Wouldn't want to upset anyone
with the facts!
Liberals know this is an easily-accessible place to debate Mormons and
conservatives. There are a few liberals in Utah (my brother is one) who just
like to go against the grain. I doubt any mind or heart has ever been changed
on here.I know I used to be closer to the middle and am now much
more hardened in my position. I used to be open to gay marriage but with all of
the hateful posts (and actions) against the LDS Church, I will do everything I
can to oppose gay rights now.
How long are we going to keep puzzling about the gay problem? Some of us don't
care whether the problem is ever solved. Give gays their dues and get them out
of the way. Lets concentrate on the important issues.
@ re: Vince 7:51You illustrate the disconnect that is taking
place.Marriage and procreation are completely autonomous! Each can
exist without the other. Heterosexual marriages can and do exist without having
children. People can and do have children without forming a hetersexual
marriage. As Vince stated, "family" is the building block of
society, not heterosexual marriage. Families exist in a variety of forms. Some
have children, some don't. Some families have opposite-sex couples and some
have same-sex couples. Within each of those subsets of families, some have
children and some do not. But in each case, marriage adds stability to the
family structure. As such, it should be available to each family, without
respect to the presence of children or the sexuality of the couple. Authorizing same-sex marriage will only have one major impact on society.
Families with same-sex couples, with or without children, will be strenthened.
Hi, it's me. I'll keep this simple. I admit that I didn't refer to any
textbook or history book to make my assertion that heterosexual marriage is the
basic building tool of society. I based it off the observation that it takes a
man and a woman, in other words a heterosexual union, to produce a child.
Re @ 6:35You don't read well.1 - I never said same-sex
and opposite sex families are "equally stable." I said marriage would be a
stabilizer for both.2 - Your contention about my Swedish example is
unfounded. I presented it as an "interesting factoid," not as proof for any
argument. Neverthess, your (il)logical inference isn't sound. It would only
work if I had also said that Swedish marriages were less likely to succeed than
Swedish unions - but I didn't say that did I. 3 - By debunking your
(il)logical inference in #2, I need not further address your concern as to how
banning marriage destabilizes same-sex families. (Even you must admit that this
is self-evident.)4 - You did NOT say that marriage is "primarily"
about children. Even so, I again refute that. Posterity can continue with ZERO
marriages! Again, people can procreate without marriage! Again, yes, marriage
IS a great institution for children, regardless of their parents' sexuality -
but it is EQUALLY IMPORTANT for social stability when no children are involved!
Therefore, "marriage is not about children." Ironically, I am the
only one here arguing ALL children should have access to marriage!
Re: JustificationYou wrote,"Bottom line: heterosexual
marriage is the basic building tool of society"Every time I have
read in sociology books what the building tool of society is, the books mention
"family," never "heterosexual marriage."What textbook or history
book did you use as a source for that?To that effect, sociologists
then divide families into different categories, out of which "a nuclear
heterosexual family" is only a subset, not the only one.
What is the source for your statement that same-sex and opposite sex families
are equally stable?How does banning marriage to same-sex couples
with children destabilize those children, especially if non-marital
relationships with children in Sweden are 6 times more likely to last than
marriages with children in the U.S.? If that Sweedish statistic is true,
wouldn't that make unmarried homosexual relationships 6 times more likely to
last? It makes the argument to ban homosexual marriage even stronger.I stand by my word- marriage is PRIMARILY about children and all of the
additional well-being/economic benefits are afterthoughts. Society cannot
continue without posterity, but it can continue without everyone being 100%
happy about the status quo.
@ 5:13 - "Marriage is about children" Children are NOT a derivative
of marriage, they are a derivative of sex / conception. Children can / are born
every day around the world outside "marriage." Marriage has NEVER been needed
before one could conceive and have children. Despite marriage's desirability
when having children, it is certainly not required. To the contrary,
marriage IS about STABILITY. Yes, it is a stabilizer for children, but that is
the same whether it is a same-sex or opposite-sex family unit. (Interesting
factoid: Non-marital relationships w/ children in Sweden, for example, are 6
times more likely to last than marriages w/ children in the U.S.!)Banning
marriage to same-sex couples actually destabilizes children already in legal,
lawful same-sex family units. But the stability of marriage need
not be only for children. Couples without children, regardless of sexuality,
are more likely to stay together, find happiness, receive economic efficiencies,
foster good health, and actively participate in society. Each of these are well
within the valid (indeed compelling) state interests related to general health
and welfare. I stand by my word - marriage is NOT about children,
even though they are beneficiaries of the institution.
OK Justification, debunk the "marriage is about children" argument if it's so
easy to do. Are homosexuals (without external intervention) able to procreate
Speaking of harm to society, I can think of an overwhelming amount of damage
religions have inflicted on society. Religions has promoted wars,
discrimination and sexism, all while fighting against science, secular progress
and eqaultiy. Yet I can't think of one way homosexuality has harmed society.
Perhaps we are looking to ban the wrong thing!
You are right on one count, I am a construction worker. I happen to know alot of
Bubbas too. Did you say you were a pig farmer or did I infer that.Take
care R.C. and take care of the gays. I am signing off.
The crusaders against same-sex marriage are similar to extremists that want
death to the infidel. Both have no real idea what is really wrong with their
enemis (the gay or infidel), they just know they have been told to fight them,
to eradicate them, to cure them. They try any way they can to justify the
course their leaders have mapped out, because inside they see the course is
patently inconsistent with other fundamental truths. Nevertheless, they form
their rationalizations and persist. The sad part is, if homophobes
and extremists would actually go meet their enemies (the gays and the infidels),
they would find that there is nothing to fear. They would find that God is more
pleased with their enemies than them. They would see that their leaders have
led them astray.
I thought that this was supposed to be a mormon paper.. What's with all the
"I don't think many people want to deny gays their equal rights. I think the
problem is that gays want society to see them as exactly the same as straight
couples and it just isn't going to happen."First of all you want to
deny them their right to marry... I have a co-worker who is gay; he and his
partner adopted three children. This is a wonderful family full of love and
happiness... I don't act/think that my family is any *better* then theirs, and I
certainly wouldn't legislate that my family is better then theirs... Why do you?
People don't understand why, just because they don't want gays to get married,
they are called bigots... this is why. Gay couples are just like a straight
couples. Kinda like like a white person is just like a black person.
The whole "marriage is about children" argument is easily debunked.
Furthermore, its not inconsistent with same-sex marriage. Non of the
opponents really believe this argument, they just have nothing better. They
know they can't just rely on the "God said so" argument because 1) many
religious people disagree that god said so, and 2) many gay people don't care
what the gods of other religions say. So, they appeal to hollow arguments that
they know don't hold water. But what else can they do - admit they are wrong?
"there are many dysfunctional families with heterosexual parents." True, but
nature still apparently prefers those situations to giving children to
homosexuals."So nature prefers abusers, neglectors, and dysfuntional
parents than give a child to my wonderful nephew and niece? They cannot have
children. I guess nature has spoken. But nature has also taught
scientists how to perform in vitro fertilization and surrogacy. I guess nature
changed her mind and WILL allow my nephew and niece to have a child - along with
any gay that also wants one.
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Also, A
snake, is still a snake.
As far as society is concerned, the primary goal of marriage is to create a
stable, optimal (according to nature because nature doesn't give children to
homosexuals) environment for the bearing and raising (or adopting) of children.
It isn't a question of fertility. You'll say, "there are many dysfunctional
families with heterosexual parents." True, but nature still apparently prefers
those situations to giving children to homosexuals.
TO - re: Justification | 12:37 p.m["doesn't necessarily satisfy the
sexual desires of "straight" people either because most of them naturally have
urges to procreate with many members of the opposite sex."]it
appears your problem is you think sex is about procreation. It's not. As a
matter of fact, half of your "procreation" is accidental... people like sex, as
they should, and that desire has very little to do with wanting to make babies.
Items are sold specifically to prevent that (condoms, the pill, etc.) Marriage
and procreation are two TOTALLY separate things - and in this day and age,
actually have very little in common. Perhaps THAT's what has the religious
community up in arms. That mant have babies without getting married, and many
get married and don't have babies... welcome to the 21st century...
That blathering attempt at 12:37 to justify banning same-sex marriage is exactly
what I was talking about - you proved my point. Thank you! Consider yourseld
OWNED!Any simpleton can dissect your arguments. For example, the
state has many other reasons to recognize marriage, each of which are
fundamental to a strong society, outside procreation (e.g. happiness of
citizenry, economic stability, health issues, community cohesiveness, and on and
on and on). You are correct in saying that heterosexual marriage
should be protected. It will be protected. Allowing same-sex marriage will not
stop or discourage any heterosexual marriage from occuring. Your point is
moot.Your statement that marriage doesn't guaranty "love," "sexual
satisfaction," or "the right to be with one's chosen partner" is irrelevant and
fallacious on too many levels to discuss in 200 words! Assuming you have a
spouse, what criteria did you use to get married?As I pointed out
earlier, I suspect you are attempting to justify your position because your
religion has suggested a course that you know doesn't jive with your god's
character. I get it! The problem is, your arguments don't hold water!
to - Re: Sally | 12:33 p.mhas it occurred to you that your gay
co-workers feel the same way when you talk about kissing your husband?I personally like hearing about two girls kissing - and would much rather hear
about that than hear about you and your husband... of course two guys kissing
gives me the heebie-jeebies, but since it's none of my business, I'm adult
enough to ignore it. Or I say "dude - pls - I don't want to hear about
that...." and they'll stop talking about it.that's certainly no
reason to deny them rights...
TO - RE Reality Check | 6:34 p.m["I do not believe you when you
say you are straight. You are at minimum a closet gay. Perhaps legalizing "Gay
Marriage" will help you come out. It takes one to know one."]and
you got all that from my posts, that since I'm not a religious zealot like you,
trying to force everyone to be just like you - that makes me gay? I suggest
you not quit your day job (in construction), and I would say you are at a
minimum a closet FLDS mormon. It takes one to know one...since you
haven't figured it out yet, let me explain in simple words you will understand -
a person doesn't have to be gay to believe in equality - but a person has
to be a bigot to not believe in equality....so what does that make
Our society shouldn't ban homosexuals from practicing homosexual behavior or
from living together, but it shouldn't incentivize those actions either. The
only union/action that should be incentivized by society is heterosexual
marriage because it's the only one that naturally produces offspring. Just as
heterosexual marriage doesn't satisfy the sexual desires of "homosexuals" it
doesn't necessarily satisfy the sexual desires of "straight" people either
because most of them naturally have urges to procreate with many members of the
opposite sex. Bottom line: heterosexual marriage is the basic building tool of
society and should be treated as such because it is the only union that
naturally is capable of producing offspring and it's a commitment that often
requires sacrifice on a sexual level from all parties involved. Nowhere are
"love," "sexual satisfaction," or "the right to be with one's chosen partner"
guaranteed in heterosexual marriage, so to allow homosexual marriage in pursuit
of those is unfair and deceitful. Homosexual marriage is harmful because it
incentivizes behavior that is counterproductive to the promulgation of society
because it precludes two potentially unproductive members of society from
procreating, assuming they are not promiscuous.
I don't think many people want to deny gays their equal rights. I think the
problem is that gays want society to see them as exactly the same as straight
couples and it just isn't going to happen. I know I get pretty uneasy when a
gay co-worker starts talking about making out with her girlfiend. I really
don't want to hear about it and I think I have a right to feel that way. Inside
gay circles, it's called the "ick" factor - and you all know what I'm talking
about.It's none of my business what you do on your own time in your
own home but I don't want it in my face and I don't want to pay for it. I think
with gay marriage, it's an absence of trust. Your opponents do not trust you to
do what you say and leave it at that. I think there is a lot of concern that we
will see gays suing churches, trying to shut them down or take away tax exempt
status, etc.You say one thing, your actions indicate another.
All of these pathetic attempts to show social harm from homosexuality (as if
homosexuality would stop even if gay marriage is formally prohibited) illustrate
the senseless justification religionists use to overcome their inner knowledge
that their gods would not ban same-sex marriage if they were here today. Deep down they all know that even if their gods disapprove of
homosexuality, their gods also approve of free will, tolerance, and love. They
know that their gods would never force someone into obedience. They know that
their gods approve of secular governments, established "by the people, for the
people," not for their gods. They know that their gods approve of equal
treatment for all, regardless of age, sex, gender, race, ethnicity, or religion.
They know that the only true threat to their marriages are themselves, through
their own sexual deviancy and sin. They know that the only true threat to their
children are the prejudices, habits, and vices they will hand them. They know
that the only true threat to society is bigotry, division, and discrimination.
But please, continue on with your justifications. They let the
world know what you really are - scared and confused people who are out of
So we have now decided that there shouldn't be equal treatment for gay people by
allowing them to marry because it harms society? The reason it "harms society"
is because gay people can't have children? WRONG! There are plenty of gay men
out there that can have children. All they have to do is have there sperm
implanted in a women and she can give birth to the baby. Just because people
are gay does not make them infertile. So... your argument that homosexuality
harms society because gays can not reproduce now means nothing. Throw the next
one at me, I have plenty of answers to all of your small minds!
"Also, there are plenty of heterosexual couples who can adopt unwanted or
orphaned children. Bottom line: homosexuality harms society."There
are children waiting to be adopted because they are not cute little babies, the
wrong color, born with AIDS, have birth defects or older children that have been
abused by their parents. Gay couples and individuals have been
adopting these unwanted children and raising them, giving them the home and love
they desperately need. Is this not a boon to society?
The single most informative observation I've found on the characteristics of the
far-right conservative thought processes, is that it has no tolerance for
ambiguity. This idea demonstrates itself over and over in this discussion and
many others.Marriage is not wholly owned by any church, nor is it
wholly owned by the government. There is civil marriage - that's one thing -
and there are any number of different versions of sacred marriage, in any number
of different churches.The government recognizing homosexual couples'
right to civil marriage:* has NO effect at all on any given church's
definition, or any individual's personal definition * is not tantamount
to 'forcing [anyone] to accept the "gay lifestyle" as normal'*
will not change the civil rights and benefits of straight married couples one
bit* does not change the institution of marriage as a whole one bit, other
than to eliminate the EXCLUSIVITY straights have had so far; if this is
important to you, consider that marriage is not a country club, and trying to
keep 'undesirables' out is a matter of civil rights.Protecting any
sanctity marriage may have can only be done personally, one marriage at a time.
Thanks for clearing up your position Little Worker Drone. Still, I think that
your definition of 'harm' is unworkable. For example, procreation alone is
insufficient to maintain society. Many additinoal productivity factors are
essential to humity's survival (e.g. goods production, labor, innovation,
scientific discovery, etc.). Therefore, it is easy to conceive of ways
homosexuals can be productive even when not procreating. Problems
with your definition, as it relates to heterosexuals, are also easily
identifiable. Heterosexuals who choose not to procreate are necessarily
'harming' society under your definition. More difficult to determine, should
people be required to "maximize" procreation to be fully productive? I'm not
sure I can accept your Beehive Law!
I do not believe you when you say you are straight. You are at minimum a closet
gay. Perhaps legalizing "Gay Marriage" will help you come out. It takes one to
Sorry for the subtlety but the harm that homosexuality causes society was
implied. Society moves backwards (is harmed) when members do not help it
survive. The ONLY way to assure society's survival is through procreating. For
example, who is going to pay off Bush and Obama's enormous debt and keep you
alive when you're old? Our posterity.
"The world now has much more food than its inhabitants need"? What planet do
you live on?
re: realitycheck | 4:43 p.m. - "Bottom line: homosexuality harms society."You may have described how homosexuality fails to 'benefit' society, but
how does is 'harm' society?Banning 'unproductive' behavior is a
dangerous thing Little Worker Drone!
Gay marriage harms society | 1:37 - Your ridiculous argument [as if
homosexuals will choose to marry the opposite sex and have children without
same-sex marriage] actually hints at an argument of the anti-same-sex group
that has yet to be discussed.Their argument is as follows: "Offering
same-sex marriage is giving a "special right" to gays, since they already have
the choice of a heterosexual marriage."The fallacy of the argument
is that it doesn't confer a special right on homosexuals. Yes, straight and gay
people can currently choose an opposite-sex marriage. But same-sex marriage
would also be equally available to straight and gay people! I
always laugh when I rebut this argument as stated above, because heterosexual
people get soooooo offended at the thought that they would ever enter a same-sex
marriage (because it's not an option when your heterosexual right?). I quickly
point out that maybe they should consider that gays currently feel the same
about opposite sex marriage!
Your Malthusian ideas have been proven wrong over and over again. Thanks to
human innovation (one result of population growth) the world now has much more
food than its inhabitants need. Case in point- is the world better or worse off
now than it was 100 years ago? Society's best interest is to promulgate itself,
not incentivise selfish, unproductive behavior (i.e. homosexuality). Also,
there are plenty of heterosexual couples who can adopt unwanted or orphaned
children. Bottom line: homosexuality harms society.
The only reason they are even leaglizing gay marriage is so that they can put
the gays into the FEMA deathcamps that they have all over the country. Our
government is run by nazi sympathizers so what do you expect. Fema has over 600
deathcamps across the country waiting to hoard in undesirables. They are all
currently fully staffed at the moment. Our government plans to reduce earths
population by 80% so they can better control everyone.
Gay marriage harms society | 1:37 p.m. April 23, 2009 Please explain how gay marriage harms society.You're bringing in
topics not related to gay marriage --- pornography and marriage.How
does the marriage of Tom and Fred or Sally and Mary directly interfere with
harming society?Are you saying that gays would be stable
heterosexuals if they were to be kept from marrying each other.I do
not think you would want a gay person marrying a heterosexual.Too
many marriages are ruined and too many more will be ruined because of exactly
that very idead.When we try to convert gays to and label them as
"confused heterosexuals" and try to assimilate them to live heterosexual lives
they are not happy and their spouses are not happy.True, there might
be minor exceptions, very very few, in fact; but in large, most heterosexual/gay
marriages are not stable.
TO - Gay marriage harms society | 1:37 p.m["Gay marriage keeps
two people who could otherwise add children and stable families to society from
doing that"]WHAT?!?! Are you kidding or just really really
slow? Do you REALLY think more children need to be added to
society? We can't feed all the children now and you want to make sure everyone
is just like you and pumps out kids like there's no tomorrow?That
has got to be one of the most ridiculous and asinine answers I have ever heard.
In reality, gay couples can help raise some of the way-too-many children that
need a home. We don't all need to be like the FLDS, pumping out little robots
every 9 months...and to Obama Republican | 1:38 p.mwho
cares if it's a choice or not? It harms no one and should be none of your
business. is there some reason you feel the need to push your idea of morals
onto everyone else, and try to actually put them into laws we all must comply
with? Keep your church policy in your church and out of public affairs...
To Obama RepublicanHowever, when it comes to church policy, you're
right.Church policy is what it is.Gays are not trying to
change church policy.And Prop 8 is not about changing church
policy.Gays do not intervene with matters pertaining to church
policy.But many church members want to intervene with matters
pertaining outside of church? outside of their own families --- outside of
their marriages.Is there a double standard?You don't
want the gays to intervene with the Church, and they are not. Legally, they
cannot.But you want to intervene with gay affairs?
To Obama Republican | 1:38 p.m. April 23, 2009 You just mentioned
that you have a spouse.Did you have a choice on whether you were
attracted to your spouse?Obviously you're a heterosexual.This is the choice I'm talking about.If you say that being gay is
a choice then you must, by implication, say that you are heterosexual by
choice.I doubt that very seriously.I believe you are
heterosexual because that is what comes natural to you.True, actions
are choices.However, when it comes to gays, gays are told two things
1. they are told by people that their sexual identity is a
choice.2. further, they are told, that they cannot act on those
impulses.However, heterosexuals can.Gays cannot.??And homosexuality is legal, mind you.We're
talking about legal action, here.Next, when we come to issuing
rights based on their identity, even though the action is legal and American
Psychological Association determines that gays are as healthy as heterosexuals,
suddently it comes to a debate with people,and some heterosexuals -
who do not share the experience want to vote on it???On
something they do not understand.
If u have read my post u know I try not to be judgmental, but I do believe
EVERYTHING is a choice!I have a choice to cheat on my spouse, I have
a choice to booze it up, I have a choice to steal,lie, do drugs or have sex at
all. Just because you like something is not reason enough that you have to have
it!If someone wants to live according to church policy they need to
abstain. Hard as it maybe, that is their choice. The church should not have to
change to accommodate all actions. What change would be next?
Gay marriage keeps two people who could otherwise add children and stable
families to society from doing that. It's like pornography. People argue that
it's harmless, but in reality, the least it does in terms of harm is objectify
Gay gene?Seems like the gay gene question is the new question that
is replacing the old debated question "is being gay a choice?"Because whether most people agree with it or not, Seems like we
have put the choice of gay being a choice to rest. In an interview with Public
Affairs, Elder Oaks said,ELDER OAKS: Thats where our doctrine comes
into play. The Church does not have a position on the causes of any of these
susceptibilities or inclinations, including those related to same-gender
attraction. Those are scientific questions whether nature or nurture those are
things the Church doesnt have a position on."As to the question of
choice, most gays knew they were gay before they entertained the question of
whether it was a choice.And now, most gays know that they are gay
before we can determine if there is a gay gene.The debate, the
absence of whether we find out does not preclude that there isn't one.The counter: We haven't found one, theremost there must not be one.Regardless of whether one is found, we're still gay.It's a core
essence of being.
it doesn't really matter whether it is genetic or not. What matters is that
people want to marry who they want and since it harms no one, there's no reason
to prohibit it. It doesn't really matter if you think it is moraly wrong. What
matters is that is harms no one so there is NO REASON TO PROHIBIT IT.If it goes against your morals, then don't do a same-sex marriage. But don't
try to push your morals onto others, nor try to put your morals into law.btw - I'm straight and married. Just don't see what all the commotion
Wow the nutty on this board are out in force. Here is the simplicity of the
Gospel, if you live your own life not Judging others, turning the other cheek,
loving your neighbor as yourself. It really will not matter if I die today or
tomorrow! If I am caught up in some punishment God send then, he will judge me
based on my heart!Those who should fear are those that Judge each
other, that scam their neighbors, that live by the sword (gun in our day).The gospel is peaceful and should be full of love for the sinner. The
last time I checked Jesus did not condemn the adulteress, so how could a man
like myself full of errors condemn the Dudes?
@ 5:04 Wow the nutty on this board are out in force. Here is the simplicity of
the Gospel, if you live your own life not Judging others, turning the other
cheek, loving your neighbor as yourself. It really will not matter if I die
today or tomorrow! If I am caught up in some punishment God sends then he will
judge me based on my heart!Those who should fear are those that
Judge each other, that scam their neighbors, that live by the sword (gun in our
day).The gospel is peaceful and should be full of love for the
sinner. The last time I checked Jesus did not condemn the adulteress, so how
could a man like myself full of errors condemn the Dudes?
@gay gene | 6:19 p.m. April 22, 2009 "So you have finally discovered the
genetic link to homosexuality. That is incredible news!!! Everyone else on the
planet says they can't find anything in DNA to support that. Get ready to be
nominated for the Nobel Prize for your find! Great work!!!"Just
because the gene(s?) have not been pinpointed yet, does not mean there is not a
gene. Just because you are not up-to-date with the lastest research does not
give you the right to attack me. Everyone else on the planet does NOT say that
they can't find anything to support genetic causes for homosexuality. You just
haven't researched it but took what someone else told you to be true.Are you aware that they just found a gene that causes left-handedness? After
all these years, it IS genetic too!
Sally Mander "The Mormons for sure don't support gay civil unions. The
statement was that the church doesn't oppose the same legal protections that are
available to all people. Their president has never spoken on the current issue
and what has been said doesn't support your disingenuous statement."Actually, you are the one with the disingenuous statement, Sally.Here's a little tidbit from Elder Whitney Clayton in the Nov. 6 Deseret News:
He said in general, the church "does not oppose civil unions or domestic
partnerships," that involve benefits like health insurance and property rights.
That stand was outlined in a statement the church posted on its Web site early
in the Prop 8 campaign.
You wrote,"The crime is called, THE CRIME AGAINST NATURE."If you define homosexuality as the crime against nature --- in any
criminal law, crime, lawsuit, there must be a victim and an offender.You're saying, according to this, that gays are the offenders against
nature.So, the victim, therefore is nature?By
implication nature is going to file a lawsuit against the gays?I
don't see where you're going with this.
So you have finally discovered the genetic link to homosexuality. That is
incredible news!!! Everyone else on the planet says they can't find anything in
DNA to support that. Get ready to be nominated for the Nobel Prize for your
find! Great work!!!
Having homosexual relationships is wrong.That is a fairly
unequivocal statement. Is it equivalent to saying "Being Black is
wrong"?No, it isn't.Is it an equivalent statement to
saying "interracial sexual relationships are wrong."Yes, it is.Marriage is a religious ceremony that was adopted into civil law. It
has always represented the union of a man and a woman in the eyes of God and/or
society for the purpose of creating a family, the traditional type.You can argue what it should be all you want but the fact is that is what it
has been.I think the government needs to get out of the ordinance of
marriage all together. Leave marrying people to the churches, and let everyone
have the Civil Unions. You want to be legally united your father,
brother, sister, neighbors wife?fine, just get a Civil Union license
at the courthouse, they don't discriminate there.
Maybe if you read a genetics textbook before you started typing you could answer
your own question regarding the genetic or endocrinal origins of homosexuality
(which exists in other species as well.)Recessive genes are
activated only under certain conditions, so that gay people posses the activated
version of a genomic sequence that is otherwise recessive. Research in Germany
suggests that the genetic trigger for homosexuality might occur in utero as a
result of edocrinal conditions. It is beyond dispute that
homosexuality is a natural trait and not a "choice." It is sad that people
refuse to accept this and continue to persecute people becuase of their genetic
Questions to you, 5:04:Is that CRIME AGAINST NATURE malum in se, or
malum prohibitum? Tell me, what has happened to these sexual "criminals" all
throughout history? Has it been anything other than being persecuted by the
religious in society? (Don't use Sodom and Gommorah as an example. Any
historian and most religionists will confirm that sex had nothing to do with
that story - it was lack of charity.) Why do you assume that advocates for
same-sex marriage hate God? Is the current financial problem a punish from God?
Do tell me, what else is coming?
The Mormons for sure don't support gay civil unions. The statement was that the
church doesn't oppose the same legal protections that are available to all
people. Their president has never spoken on the current issue and what has been
said doesn't support your disingenuous statement. I'm not mormon, but I have
gained huge respect for their willingness to stand up for their beliefs.
"I have a question for the GLBT's. If there is a gay gene, how did it get
passed on to any of you? Aren't genes typically passed on through heterosexual
sex? If evolution is real then any gay genes should have died out a long time
ago... right?"Wrong. It could be a recessive gene or it could be
that those that carry this gene must have it triggered before taking effect (my
belief). It is called "penetrance" of the allele. That is why two identical
twins may be different. A little more studying and you too will
believe that this is probably genetic.
You said, "It is not our place to decide how two grown adults spend their
time,(as long as no crime is committed)" The crime is called, THE CRIME AGAINST
NATURE. Throughout all recorded history those who indulge in this crime don't
come out well. Do you think that somehow because four states have signed onto
the crime that that will protect you from what's to come. If you think the
almost instantaneous crash of the world economy is something, you haven't seen
anything yet. Hide and watch as the arrogant haters of God are brought to their
knees. And good luck with that.
The one thing YOU are forgetting is that despite that claim, the LDS church
officially opposed Hawaii's recent attempt to grant even "civil unions," which
would have granted same-sex couples truly equal rights to married couples. The
bill failed to go to vote in the Hawaii legislature, thanks in part to the LDS
Church's involvement. There are some good news reports on the web chronicling
this issues. To put the story in context, the LDS Church fought to
restrict the amount of "civil rights," not just the "title," homosexuals could
have in California for over 10 years. The documentation proving this is all
over the web. But that happened before their recent claim that they would
support same-sex couples having equal civil rights if they would use a name
other than "marriage." This incident in Hawaii, however, came AFTER that claim!
Shameful, like so many times before.:-(
I have a question for the GLBT's. If there is a gay gene, how did it get passed
on to any of you? Aren't genes typically passed on through heterosexual sex? If
evolution is real then any gay genes should have died out a long time ago...
Why would it exacerbate the problem. If you believe he talks to God, - it would
not be a dig. If you don't, - maybe that is your problem. I was not
offended by Sally. Obviously, she does not believe, but I do!Lighten up, Brother!
Sally - YOU are the problem. Your "comments" about our prophet "talking to God"
are exactly they type of thing which exacerbates the "problems" between LDS and
"Non-LDS" cultures. It seems there's always a dig to go along with No-Mos'
claims that LDS are the intolerant group.
People should be allowed to choose. We are fortunate in that way in this
country. In fact the latitude of our choices is very great. My opinion is that
someday we will have to account for our choices. Some in this country obviously
do not believe in a higher power, I still think that there are more who do. I
think one of the biggest things that we will account for is how we treated
others. That is, in spite of how wrong or kinky we may think they are, we allow
everyone to follow the path that they choose. No rocks being thrown from here.
Peace to all.
The one thing you are all forgetting is the LDS church has said that they are
for civil unions! Hello! Your prophet, the one who "talks to God" said that
gay people should recieve the same benefits as straight people, just not
marriage? What is your problem?
"It is not our place to decide how two grown adults spend their time,(as long as
no crime is committed). "Funny, isn't that what the Supreme Court
said in Lawrence v. Texas? I think a lot of these posters forget
that homosexuality is NOT illegal anywhere in America. They are all law abiding
citizens and should be treated equally under the law because of that.
Funny all the "true blue americans" out their get nervous when two dudes are
sleeping together. I have always wondered why people care. Maybe those big
trucks and the need to carry a gun, is a psychological matter.It is
not our place to decide how two grown adults spend their time,(as long as no
crime is committed). Should we limit their access to health care? Should we
limit their access to wealth transfer? Etc.....As a practicing LDS
I do not believe it is right behavior but it is not my place to judge or
@10:23 If you are going to use my tag name please use an @ to show u are some
Interesting question for fellow Mormons.If our proclamation is that
"marriage is between 'a' man and 'a' woman," that means 1 man and 1 woman -
correct? (I think this is corroberated by the church's recent denunciation of
the Fundamentalists.) So, is that a "doctrine" = eternal?Or,
is that a "principle" = can change with the times?This is
interesting because if it is a doctrine, our early church leaders were violating
that doctrine through polygamy. Accordingly, they must have been adulterers.On the other hand, if it is merely a principle, then one day in the
future, the principle may change to include marriages between same-sex
couples.Which is it?
It is regrettable that this paper is using "pro-marriage" to refer only to
people on the side of prohibiting marriages.I am pro-marriage. I am
pro-marriage for same-sex couples just as I am for opposite-sex ones. I resent
that this is called "anti-marriage".Moreover, I believe that
prohibiting marriage for same-sex couples is an act to destroy the institution
of marriage. It is clear that same-sex couples will exist, and will act as
married couples, and that this will become more and more a part of our culture.
If legal marriage does not serve these couples, then they will find other ways
of expressing social and legal coupleness -- ways that will work just as well
for opposite-sex couples too. And so marriage will become an outdated
irrelevant relic. I think that would be a terrible loss.For
marriage to be preserved, it MUST be true that marriage is always "just what one
does" if one wants a permanent committed relationship. And, for that to be
true, marriage MUST be available for all who want that.
Huntsman should change parties. The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint
is solidly against gay marriage as evidence from Prop 8 in California. The GOP
is also against gay marriage. If Huntsman wants liberal values then join the
democratic party for pete sake but stop trying to keep a foot in both camps.
Yes @Obama Republican, let's ban all sinful conduct! The U.S. should prohibit
all of the following1) Women can't uncover their heads - for the
Muslims 2) No shopping on Sunday - for most religions3) Re-enact
prohibition - for the Mormons4) Ban pork - for the Jews5) Ban blood
transfusions - for the Jehova's WitnessesYou see, the anti-same-sex
crowd accuses the gays of wanting more all the time, but it seems as though you
are not content with just banning marriages. You want to ban their conduct! At
least you admit it. I would encourage YOU to go to the U of U law library and
read why we don't prohibt homosexuality in Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558
92003). Your proposal disgusts me because it shows a disregard for freedom, and
I hope you never suffer from someone else choosing to ban your conduct simply
because they think it's a sin. BTW - I'm not gay, and I'm LDS.
Supporter 9:38You wrote,"the definition of sex is
a man and a woman"I think you are alone on that one.Don't tell the gays that because they might in for a surprise.And
you vote?Based on the assumption that only a man and a woman can
Re: DaveDate 9:49You wrote,"I am lds and can not
understand how someone can be lds and oppose all of his leaders"Opposing the leaders means that you will go against Church doctrine, as in
saying that a doctrine is not what it is. That's opposing the leaders.Opposing the leaders means to take a stand and say that someone in the Church
is a false leader.That's opposing the leader.However, to
take a political stand which is different than what most Church members take is
not opposing the leaders.Example: Good faithful, tithe-paying,
temple-attending members will not get excommunited for voting no on Prop 8. In
fact, the question should not never come up, as in a temple interview or any
kind of formal interview --- as in "how did you vote on Prop 8?"It's
not part of Church membership that you have to vote on one side or the other on
GS = "I see little upside to government sanction of relationships at all, unless
the potential of children is involved." So if a couple has no
potential for children through age, fertility issues, or desire - should the
government not sanction that union?On the other hand, same-sex
couples can currently adopt, so there is the potential for children in their
family. So under your logic, the government should sanction their
relationship?There are many reasons the government would sanction
relationships that have no children: property rights, survivorship rights,
support in old age (relieves government burden for social security), general
health and welfare (happiness and care). The list is much greater. A question to all - why do so many people think marriage, even if only for a
man and woman, is only about reproduction? Where did that come from? (Please
dont' say the Bible!)
Thank you Straight Mormon Republican! This is what it ALL comes down to. Man
can live "in accordance with the dictates of his own conscience" That is one of
the most important things I remember from my time as a Mormon. We have each
been given a conscience, and each person will be judged on how they lived in
accordance with THEIR beliefs.I wish that members of the Church
would give others the respect they demand.Legalize same sex marriage
- gays and lesbians are no less loving than anyone else.
Why do people not accept gays? They are not hurting anybody. We are a very small
minority and any gains we make, the conservative Utahns try to shout down. News
flash. We are not going away! We will stay and fight for our rights. We are not
asking for anything that most of you don't already have. Whats you problem? We
contribute to society in many ways. It just seems that through out history the
majority has persecuted anything different from the norm. Just accept us and let
us live our lives. We promise not to bother you. We will even invite you to
picnics and easter egg hunts.
I'm not a mormon, but you do raise a very good point about the government
banning polygamy. They did abandon it and it did go away, even though some
mormons didn't like it and it perhaps caused the hardships you suggest, but it
did go away. Now that's the plan for gay marriage. It may not make you guys
happy, but it can go away just like polygamy... and it will.
Slip on down the the law library at the U of U and take a peek at the multitude
of laws that ban behavior and spell out the consequences. True you can't stop
people from breaking the law that bans the behavior, but you can sure punish the
behavior big time. That's why I'm sure you'll agree with me that we do need
laws banning same sex behaviors just as we've banned incest, polygamy, peeping
toms and other lewd and lascivious behavior. Can you work with me on that.
Let's have lunch and get organized.
You said: "Gee if we are going to allow same-sex marriage, why stop there? Let's
put no restrictions on marriage. Lets let people marry each other regardless of
gender, age, and the number of individuals involved. After all, it doesnt matter
what other individuals choose to do....right?"Gender - I agree, lets
let them do it!Age - No, there's that issue about "consent!"Number - Well, I seem to recall hearing about a religion that tried that
once, maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea! But wait, they're against it now,
so maybe not!
This is about Civil Marriage, Not Religious Marriage. Tell me, do LDS people
not find a big difference between a civil marriage officiated by a government
worker, and an LDS Temple Marriage? Of course they do!
I see little upside to government sanction of relationships at all, unless the
potential of children is involved.
You don't get it at all, do you? We cannot pass any law that bans behavior. We
can't even ban murder. It happens every single day.All we can do is
pass laws that impose penalties for behavior that we collectively agree is
undesirable. People still can exercise their free agency to do whatever they
want to do if they are willing to risk getting caught and paying the price.By the way, your last paragraph sounds like you have some specific and
personal issues. You probably should be talking to a professional to get those
Gee if we are going to allow same-sex marriage, why stop there? Let's put no
restrictions on marriage. Lets let people marry each other regardless of gender,
age, and the number of individuals involved. After all, it doesnt matter what
other individuals choose to do....right?
How interesting 52-48%. That's about the margin that put Obama and the
progressive liberls in control of the government. I am heartened that "It's
only a matter of time" until the tide turns back and we can get a Constitutional
amendment to shut down this same sex marriage foolishness once and for all.
yeah, it is just you. name one right that gays do not have. they are not
discriminated for being who they are. they are fired and evicted for wanting to
display sexual conduct. gays can marry gays. as has been stated in other posts,
sex is not a requirement for marriage so what do you care if they have to marry
someone of the opposite sex? that is the definition of marriage. sorry, but the
people have spoken it all over the country. aside from vermont, all the votes
that allowed gay marriage were done by ten people at the most.
I think it is highly ironic that just over a century ago the United States
enacted anti-polygamy legislation, which forced the LDS people to abandon their
most significant religious ordinance of the time. The LDS poeple's emotional
agony, government resentment, family strain and spiritual strife from that time
are all well documented. They could not understand how a vast majority of their
fellow citizens could prevent them from their chosen form of marriage.Today, just over a century later, the LDS people are the most boisterous
voices against other factions' choice of marriage. They are the first to
condemn the Fundamentalists, who have merely perpetuated the polygamy the LDS
Church started, and which still riddles their own doctrine. Now, they are the
front-runners to ban same-sex marriage, even when it has no effect on their
church whatsoever. Does all this mean that they publicly
acknowledge that their prior polygamy was in fact wrong and the government was
correct in saving them from themselves? Or, does it only mean that the LDS
people are prone to engaging in the old "what comes around goes around"
vengeance like everyone else?
For those who say gays don't hate God- This from @what do they want:Where did God say that? The only express declaration of such a statement is
through the Mormon Church. The rest of the world doesn't care what Mormons think
God did or didn't say. Even if God did say that, the governments of the United
States have no obligation to accept God's definition. If God has a problem with
that, let Him talk to the U.S. Government! . . . Silently waiting . . . Until
then, we'll do it our way!
Your argument in which you include infertile and handicapped people is
fallacious. The statement is that nature doesn't provide children to same sex
people. Men and women who are handicapped and cannot have children or infertile
are not same sex. The opposition always indulges in ad hom, strawman, and every
other false logic device to further their unprofitable cause. They think they
can wear everyone down. Personally I find greater strength every day to spend my
money, talents, efforts and time to oppose them and I can promise them, WE WON"T
i have the same question. i am lds and can not understand how someone can be lds
and oppose all of his leaders. what i must point out to you is this: civil
unions were created to bridge this gap between those who support gay marriage
and those who oppose. however, as you have seen, it is never enough for gays.
once you give them civil unions or anything of the such, they will start saying
they need marriage. i would be the first to support civil unions if it came with
a gaurantee that it would not lead to marriage, but as we have seen at least
four times, it does not. i am sure that when civil unions were proposed in these
states, the gays swore that it would not lead to marriage. but they are the
masters of decption. i went to hearing at the utah legislature and was appaled
when gay senator mccoy sat there saying that the common ground bills would not
lead to civil unions and marriage, when one of those bills specifically lifted
the civil unions ban.
you have been brainwashed by the homosexual movement. you are a walking
contradiction. you say you want recognition of your sex life when in reality,
you don't even have sex! the definition of sex is a man and a woman buddy. you
gays are all the same. when you lose in religion, you claim science, but you
fail to realize, scientifically, you lose even worse.
It is funny how most of you on this board would gadly force people to obey your
moral laws. You rant and rave that Democrats are forcing the loss of free
agency. Look in the mirror people, every law you agree to pass banning behaivor
is a ban of free agency.If a couple of dudes want to live their life
together who am I to judge or you for that matter. If you have a hint of faith
you will know the Lord will be their judge for good or bad. He is the only one
who knows their heart. I submit I would rather have two dudes as
neighbors who are honest, LOAN PAYING and kind. Then to have a so called mormon
who is now figuring out how to stick it to the bank, who is walking away from
their house and making my neighborhood worthless.
You must live in California! Yes, the people have voted it down, but only by a
52-48% votes, which is much closer than last time! The tide is turning, as
opposed to your claim that the "sentiment is growing." The youth in
America (including those associated with religions)overwhelmingly support
same-sex marriage = It's only a matter of time! Them's the facts!
The Facts | 10:29 p.m. April 21, 2009 The vast majority of
Americans did not spearhead the Prop 8 campaign. Really, who are we kidding?If given a choice, do you think the majority of Americans would have
taken up Prop 8?A resounding no.The Prop 8 campaign
members knew from the start that without the experience of the Mormom members
the Prop 8 would have certainly failed.The compromise was to launch
it as a coalition.Did it work?NOT.Always
trying to evade responsibility.As to the facts, more Americans, more
and more, are favoring same sex marriage every year.That's also a
The vast majority of Americans oppose gay marriage. For some reason, the LDS
Church and Utah keep getting dragged into this.I don't live in Utah,
I live in a very liberal state and the majority here has voted down gay marriage
every time.Ten years ago, all the liberals in Hollywood kept saying
marriage was obsolete and going to go away. "I don't need a piece of paper to
tell me I'm in love," they said.But now all those blowhards are
suddenly pro-marriage (for gays, still against it for straights apparently).Do you want to listen to middle American talking or some high school
dropout who makes a couple of movies a year and takes home millions of
dollars?Don't be fooled. Most Americans are against gay marriage
and if anything, that sentiment is growing, not fading.
Thanks for the information, Vince and the other person responding to my
comments. I admit I am more informed thanks to you. However the crux of the
argument is this in the LDS church the idea of marriage is sacred between a man
and a woman. I think that Gays and Lesbians deserve the rights of civil unions
(i.e financial and health decisions) the same basic rights between married
couples. But why can't we leave it at that! Civil Unions can work just call it
something else. In think the word "marriage" is the line in the sand between
Gay activists and the evangelicals (I guess I'll lump the LDS church in this
category, but for the most part we differ in many other aspects). To my
responder that is active LDS why are you arguing for gay marriage when you know
your eclesiastical leaders are so against it? Just curious?!
I'm concerned by some of the language in this article. To refer to those who are
opposed to gay marriage as "pro marriage" is just confusing and seems like a
You don't understand the principle of free agency at all. A person can choose to
do exactly what they want but you want to remove the consequences. What if a
person wants to commit murder? Are you taking his free agency away when you
legislate against it?Your hyperbolic claim earlier that you would
gladly die for freedom shows that you don't understand freedom as well. Are you
limiting a person's freedom if you legislate against drug abuse? I have a son
who was a drug abuser and, believe me, he is anything but free.Drug
abuse (especially alcohol) and homsexuality have a lot of similarities.
Practicers claim that it is inherent or genetic. The claim there are no victims.
They claim it is an infringement of their rights to limit their opportunity to
practice their lifestyle. Yet each bring with it a host of social ills that
cannot just be shouted down by those who refuse to hear or see the truth. Each
takes a terrible toll on our society. Indeed, each costs lives.Freedom and agency have nothing to do with open permissiveness that leads an
individual and a society to destruction.
Free Agency is simply freedom to choose[right AND wrong]Taking away "Free Agency" is the ultimate sin.lying, cheating, stealing,
and murder each take away another person's freedom.Forcing another
person to choose right is as morally binding as forcing someone to choose
wrong."...teach them correct principles and let them govern
Who says being Gay is good? Gays, socialogist, Hollywood, etc? Since when did
they have a real grasp of what is best for society. I don't hate or
fear Gays, so don't call me hateful or a homophobe. I beleive that
homosexuality is a moral sin just as adultry, premarital sex, rape, incest,
beastiality, pornography, etc. They are called perversions. Society may
convence itself that they have been enlightened. Look at all the good that has
come from them. At the rate the world is spiraling into the toilet, it won't be
long until the Lord and Judge of what is right will come to tell us what is
right. Until then I will follow what I know to be right. Read the writtings of
Moses, Paul, and current prophets. There is no wiggle room on this.
to - @Reality check | 5:36 p.mI have absolutely no clue what you are
trying to say. Where did I say that I was a moral authority? how does a green
monkey stock someone? (what exactly is "stocking" anyway?) we know morality
doesn't equal legality because laws are written and morals are an individual
choice... you're making no sense, grand poobah.you need
to stay off the pipe - it's messing with your head..
You apparently think you are the highest moral authority. Perhaps the Grand
Poobah or something like that. Legality does not equate with morality. Lets just
agree to see how it all turns out. In the meantime, enjoy your "warm fuzzy
feeling" and watch out for the Green Monkey, he is always stocking you.
John Hunstman: A lowest common denominator kind of guy.
nice try at twisting my words but as a therapist I can assure you that there is
a clinical diagnosis for what you are suffering with and its not being "gay" per
say but rather sexual dissidence, being gay is not a disorder and does not
require treatment however having said that I have no doubt your pain and
feelings are very real and I really do thing their is help for you if your
feelings are causing you distress.
I think you have already described your stand. You said,"Until then we'll do it
our way." Don't you really mean that you will do it your way no matter what God,
church leaders or really anyone else says? For some of us what God says is most
meaningful of all. Just because you say something enough times does not change
whether its moral or not. Sometimes the louder people shout only speaks to the
guilt that they are trying to cover up. Is that You?
It sounds more like you choose you friends about as well as you choose your
arguments maybe the problem is not so much others as your own short comings.
TO - How does it look? | 4:15 p.mi found your post amusing, since
most people think it's stranger to be mormon than it is to be gay.... people used to be "repulsed" by interracial marriages (and perhaps you still
are) but that doesn't make banning them right, now does it?keep your
excessive morals in your church and out of public policy...by the
way - how do you know there was an adam and eve? did you read that in a book?
if you weren't there, you are just assuming it is true. faith might give you a
warm fuzzy, but don't pretend it's fact in a secular discussion...
do you really think that huntsman represents the view of the people of utah?
don't beleive the poll that equality utah conducted, they are completely false.
if 83% of utah supported the so-called common ground bills, they would not have
killed all of them on the grounds that the representatives got so many calls to
do so. and for all of you who keep saying let them have civil unions, let me say
that i would be the first to compromise on that, but if you give a mouse a
cookie, he's going to want a glass of milk. all the states that the courts gave
marriage to gays did so because they figured that if you are going to give them
the benifits, you need to give them marriage. civil unions are a red herring, a
backdoor to marriage.
2 plans - 1. Free Agency2. Everyone is Christ-like and Celestial.Plan number one was selected.Although I have my own personal
morals and make my own choices, I will GLADY lay down my life defending Freedom.
"just because I do not have children, does not make my marriage invalid, but it
does give me one more right, called adoption, that unwed couples do not have the
right to have."I hate to point out the obvious, but you are wrong.
Single people CAN adopt---even here in Utah! You are mistaken to think that you
must be married to adopt.
What do they want? | 3:51 p.m. April 21, 2009 You said: " Marriage
is between a man and a woman. God defined that, not me. You can give all kind of
reasons, evidence or anything you will, but the definition of marriage is still
the same, between a man and a woman. . . . If you have a problem with that, talk
to God!"Where did God say that? The only express declaration of
such a statement is through the Mormon Church. The rest of the world doesn't
care what Mormons think God did or didn't say. Even if God did say that, the
governments of the United States have no obligation to accept God's definition.
If God has a problem with that, let Him talk to the U.S. Government! . . .
Silently waiting . . . Until then, we'll do it our way!
"God created Adam and Eve, not Wilford and Steve."Actually God
created ALL of us and it is our responsibility to learn to love everyone. How
are you doing on this journey?
"My problem is ever calling the unions of gays "Marriage." It is not
marriage."LUCKY YOU. You do not live in Massachusetts or Vermont or
Iowa or Connecticutt. They all have gay unions and legally it is called a
marriage. You can call it whatever you want to, but it doesn't change what it
I am a married woman with no children, and I am so disappointed with the
governor's stand on civil unions. From where I sit, I feel that any kind of so
called union is the same as marriage, and not everyone is entitled to it. I had
to get married to have any say in medical treatment for my spouse, to cover him
with my insurance, or for him to do the same for me. These are for married
people only, and not for any couple that just wants to live together, gay or
straight. If you want to be able to make medical decisions for an ailing
parent, or other family member, the law already allows for you to get a medical
power of attorney. We do not need to change our laws one bit. Also, just
because I do not have children, does not make my marriage invalid, but it does
give me one more right, called adoption, that unwed couples do not have the
right to have.
God created Adam and Eve, not Wilford and Steve. it seems that because a group
gets involved in something that is repulsive to most of us, if they yell loud
enough and long enough, it gets some attention. The attention it deserves is the
pronouncement that gayness is immoral, it isn't right, not normal etc. It is a
deviant lifestyle. Those who are yelling for recognition will likely next want
marriage extended to humans and animals. As repulsive as that thought is, unions
between two like sex humans, is just as repulsive to most of us.I don't
think recognition will ever be enough for gays, they will next try to say that
gayness is normal, even try to legislate it. No matter, it isn't normal or
"You don't seem to realize that equality does much more to bring people down
that to raise anybody up. By its very nature, in order to create equality, you
have to reduce everything to the lowest levels.Is everyone treated
equally here in America? No. Those with lots of money are treated differently.
Sometimes those with a different color of skin are also treated differently.
It does not mean that we shouldn't strive to treat all equally.To
have inequality written into our laws is an abomination. We are putting
ourselve above others and believe that we deserve rights and privileges that
other law abiding citizens do not. Where are the true Americans?
Why did we allow Amendment 3 to pass? Who taught us to discriminate and place
ourselves above other citizens because they are different?
I believe in everyones right to pursue happiness. I am all for the tax advantage
to be fair for everyone. The Governor may stand where he will. My problem is
ever calling the unions of gays "Marriage." It is not marriage. Marriage is
between a man and a woman. God defined that, not me. You can give all kind of
reasons, evidence or anything you will, but the definition of marriage is still
the same, between a man and a woman. If you have a problem with that, talk to
Dave Dave ---Same sex marriage will not stop churches from having
those rights. Those are rights they have long held.If we are to
say, that the lawsuits could happen in the future, and the gays would win, it is
fair to say that in countries where same sex marriage is legal the lawsuits
would have happened already.Lawsuits have not happened in Canada,
Spain, Massachusetts, etc.
Davedave | 2:58 p.m. April 21, 2009 You wrote,"Okay
right there that would be against our doctorine to "marry to men or women civily
by a Bishop. So if the church syas we can not marry gays or lesbians civily and
the sate says otherwise what happens then?"I hope you're not
thinking that because same sex marriage might become legal in several more
states the possibility will exist that Churches will lose their ability to marry
whom they will.If that is indeed, what you're thinking, it's off.That rumor started way off and it has no legal standing.Here
is the reason.Churches have the right to marry whom they will and
they always have.Examples:Churches today can deny
someone marriage based on whether someone is of the same faith. And people,
gays included, cannot sue them because of it. Churches can deny
someone marriage if someone is not an active participant in the Church. You
should know that because as LDS bishops, they can deny someone marriage in an
LDS chapel depending on their religious standing.Churches can also
deny someone marriage depending on whether the person is divorced.
What is wrong with a civil marriage for consenting adults to address the
"secular" laws/rights and a church marriage for the "spiritual" laws/rights for
members of that church.Neither side recognizes the other.
As a straight former Republican I appreciate your stance on this issue.I
will vote for you again.What do Utahn's do when their very popular
Republican Governor is leaning more to the left than the right? He is a
cultured Utahn, world traveler, and knows this is a good stance for our state
-even when most here disagree. I hope he stays in office for many years, he
sheds a more tolerant light on all of Utah.
Anonymous just said: "Nature doesnt give male-male or female-female
relationships children and neither should we."I guess that means
that heterosexuals who are infertile should be banned from adoption since
"nature doesn't give them children." I guess we should't give equal
protections to the handicapped since "nature didn't give them the same physical
prowess."This could go on and on and on . . . . Nice argument A!
"The only place I draw the line on this has to do with adoption. Nature doesnt
give male-male or female-female relationships children and neither should
we."This has never been about gay adoption. Gays adopt
all the time LEGALLY. In Utah, gays may adopt if they are single. Imagine.
Gays in California may adopt and cannot, by law, be discriminated against by
public adoption agencies. There is nothing stopping a gay from adopting or
having their own child by in vitro fertilization or surragacy.The
only thing that stopping gay marriage does is make those children growing up in
gay homes less secure and stable.If you thought that stopping gay
marriage stopped gay adoption, you were wrong. Some one has mislead you.
Equality is over-rated. If all of us were equal, there never would have been a
Leonardo Da Vinci or a George Washington, an Albert Einstein, or a Mother
Teresa. The greatest things ever accomplished by human beings have been done by
superior people, not equal people.You don't seem to realize that
equality does much more to bring people down that to raise anybody up. By its
very nature, in order to create equality, you have to reduce everything to the
lowest levels.Having the word marriage will not make same-sex unions
equal. They will still be inferior. All it will do is further tarnish and
diminish the sacred union that is currently called marriage.
I AM an LDS member - active too! The U.S. government isn't bound by the LDS
Church's view of marriage. Religions don't have an inalienable "right" to
perform civil marriages. Why should any religion be able to bind the U.S. or
state governments? The state governments, at present, choose to authorize
churches to perform marital cerimonies. In the future, if they wish to perform
marriages for the states, they must comply with laws on equality. Otherwise,
they can stop performing them. But this would have no effect on churches
performing their own internally recognized marital cerimonies. Obtaining a religious marriage would grant people the rights and privileges a
religion can offer: internal recognition, salvation, eternal life, god's favor,
etc. On the other hand, civil marriages would grant you the rights
and privileges a government can offer: survivorship, property rights,
insurance, etc.Members would still have several options. They could
go to a government agency to get a civil marriage, and then go to the temple for
a sealing. Or, they could just opt to go to the temple for a sealing, but have
no recognition or rights from the U.S government.
This article seems to bring up a lot of issues. First there is a lot of
speculation as to why Gov. Huntsman would support such an issue. The only way
that we could possibly know the answer to that would be to know his thoughts.
Im guessing if we knew the thoughts and motives of most politicians we would not
vote for them. On the gay issue, I keep reading that the government should get
out of the bedroom and that two consenting adults have the right to love each
other and marry, even if they are the same sex. I believe that same logic holds
true to multiple consenting adults, same sex or not, and if we are going to
change the way the law is written lets make it for multiple partners at the same
time. The only place I draw the line on this has to do with adoption. Nature
doesnt give male-male or female-female relationships children and neither should
we. Yes, if these changes are in our best interest and the best interest of our
children, we should support them. Otherwise we should not support them.
you are right I am not an attorney. But you sir or maddam could not be a member
of the LDS church. First the idea of marriage is sacred to LDS people. If you
are familiar with the Proclomation of the Family states that "marriage is sacred
and between a man and a woman". Okay right there that would be against our
doctorine to "marry to men or women civily by a Bishop. So if the church syas
we can not marry gays or lesbians civily and the sate says otherwise what
happens then? I think it is so funny when people want to keep religion out of
intervening with government but you have no problem letting the govt dictate how
we prefrom civil marriages and who we perform them for. I know you'll say hey
why not stop performing marriages civilly altogether then. The simple response
to that is why should we?
for helping me understand. I don't pretend to be typical in any way. I don't
hang out with gays and I do call us homosexuals. I don't know if I can overcome
my feelings, but I don't know if that's necessary. What is necessary for me is
to accept Christ as my personal Savior and live the way I believe he wants me to
live. The assumed way he wants us to live is up to personal interpretation,
however, that's what I mean when I say gays I've know in my church claim for
Christ positions he has never espoused, but magically do now so they can live
their lifestyle. The God that existed for them up until a few years ago didn't
work for them, so they now have a new God or no God at all. For them, God is a
changing God who only loves unconditionally and believes in "equality" for all
people. That is a God not to be found in His Bible. There has always been wheat
and chaff and the chaff was always been burned in the furnace or blown to the
I'm skeptical of your study for obvious reasons. However, I won't discount it
entirely without reading it and searching for contrary peer-reviewed articles.
Nevertheless, is it possible, and even likely, that disease and
cheating are functions ones place in society? When one is treated as a bain to
society, a sinner, an outcast, an abnormality, one seeks acceptance in the
underbelly of sociey - which includes drug use, promiscuity, etc. I tend to
think that once homosexuals overcome these negative social stigma, they are
clean, committed citizens (perhaps better than heterosexuals). But I'm not a
"conservative" UofU professor with a study to back up my view!:-)
Marty | 1:27 p.m. April 21, 2009 Most gays that "are not practicing"
do not call themselves gay.They call themselves ex-gay or someone
who thought he was gay but is somehow reformed.If that is indeed who
are you, great.Some people do stay "not gay."Most ex-gay
eventually become gay again.Also, gay people do not use the label
"homosexual."You are very atypical. Nonetheless, if you are for
real, you deserve your right.However, I do have to take issue,
regardless on how you take the approach of "us gays know that we stand wrong
before God."I think you need to separate your gay identity from your
religious persuasion. The two are not synonymous.There are atheist
gays. True.There are also Christian gays. That is also true.If you say that gays make God into something else that they are
comfortable with, then you are denying history.There have been gays
much through Christendom.
Anonymous 1:19pm | 1:37 p.m. April 21, 2009 50 years ago - that was
the end of the 1960s.What did people do back then ---*
Women did not have an equal place in the workplace.* Civil rights in
relation to race were just beginning to take shape* Education was not yet
open to all, in relation to equal treatment -
Davedave said: "1) It opens these chruches who choose not to recognize gay
marriages for law suits (Faster thatn you could say ACLU!)"You can't
be an attorney! This is absolutely false. There is vast precedent (outside the
actually equal marriage cases themselves, which reject your concern) that
private organizations have the first amendment right of freedom of association.
Perhaps if Bishops refuse to perform civil marriages, "as a state actor," there
could be a problem. Simple answer, quit performing civil marriages!Davedave said: "2) Church's have tax-exempt status and if they don't follow
the law of the land, say we don't recognize your marriage eventhough it is
recognized by the government, they may loose that tax-exempt status." Easy answer, follow the law of the land! Why wouldn't you recognize their
marriage? What effect would they have on the LDS Church? They certainly
wouldn't require the Church to grant a further, private temple ceremony. The
government has no interest in forcing the LDS Church to sanction civil marriages
(for straights or gays) for "time and all eternity."
Long term commitments are wonderful, but for only a handful of gays, they don't
stay together. Nearly 90 percent cheat on their partner within the first year.
The disease rate is through the roof and stability doesn't exist. All of those
statistics are easily found in the UofU sociology dept in the research and
writtings of a liberal professor who concluded that the gay lifestyle offers
nothing of value to society, but tears it down.
"Just for fun, go tell your gay friends that you are going straight and
then prepare yourself for a hell of a beating. You'll be called a poser and told
to get out of the way."Not every gay is as mean as your friends. I
have a couple of friends that have become celebate rather than endure the family
trouble that they endured. My friends still consider them good people, just sad
that they can't be accepted by those that are suppose to love them.
"Thank you also for acknowledging that gay isn't inherent."I did not
such thing! I merely stated that you may have learned your "gayness" and since
you hate it so much, have some reparative therapy and get rid of it.Reparative Therapy for those born with this trait has about a .04% success
rate. Not very good. In fact, if you were really gay and were trying to get
rid of this, you would know about these dismal results. Again, you
look like a poser.
First: Will someone explain why the state should have a valid reason to
prohibit same-sex marriages? Stopping homosexuality is not the answer. Gays
will have gay sex with or without marriage. Besides, marriage does not require
sex - many of you straight married people should know that by now!Second: Those that claim animal marriage, marriage to children, and polygamy
are inevitable results truly don't understand law or reality. Neither animals
nor minors are able to "CONSENT." The host of additional justifications to ban
these are unecessary. As for polygamy, there are issues with commitment,
stability, property rights, survivorship, family law, etc. (I admit that good
arguments may eventually overcome some of these issues. Wouldn't that be
precious, polygamy becoming legal after the LDS Church has officially denounced
it!)Third: Banning same-sex marriage does NOT help families!
Rather, it hurts them! Gays can already adopt and form families. All the
prohibition does is ensure that the two parents may not make a long-term
commitment to each other. How does that help their child or family? And I dare
any of you to claim these aren't "families."The biggest myth =
Mormons care about the "family."
reading all these post reminds me how the republican party is really the party,
that would take away free agency, all in the name of morality!
I think this whole debate would have seemed silly 50 years ago when people still
had an ounce of moral fiber and could recognize the difference between right and
wrong.Today's generation of gutless cowards is willing to trample
all other virtues under the feet of the most modern of gods - "tolerance." And
what gets lost in this mindless worship of tolerance?HonestyIntegrityVirtueCivilityDisciplineIndeed, the
list of forgotten virtues can go on and on and on - all sacrificed on the altar
The problem with the idea of allowing gay marriage and then leaving up to the
churches to decide whether to recognize them or not is problematic. 1) It opens
these chruches who choose not to recognize gay marriages for law suits (Faster
thatn you could say ACLU!) 2) Church's have tax-exempt status and if they don't
follow the law of the land, say we don't recognize your marriage eventhough it
is recognized by the government, they may loose that tax-exempt status. (This
was the main argument of the LDS church compating for Prop 8). I agree with Gov
Hunstamn however, we may be opening oursevles up for more porblems down the
"And the demand for legal support means that anything considered by them to be
opposition of their life choice will be a serious hate crime. Goodby good
neighbors. Goodby parental teachings. Goodby children when the children slip and
say something considered bad, for they must be taken away from such cruel
parents. Goodby Bible. Goodby religious teachings. Goodby religious rights"Show me this in Sweden, Norway, or even Canada.You are fear
mongering. This has not occurred anywhere gay marriage is legal.Parental rights are allowed to flourish. You are allowed to teach your
children that homosexuals will bring the ruin of our society. That makes them
look at me with a wary eye. I do not like it, but this is America.
You go boy. I don't understand gays for one nano second, but you are a hero for
standing up for yourself.
Huntsman is just another politician that says things for his own political gain,
he wouldn't of said this before the election!!! He is just looking out for his
own political future. Self serving politician, Repbulican by name Democrat by
I am gay, but not a practicing gay. I'm an evangelical and every gay that I've
known in my faith has either rejected God or recreated Him into something that
accepts them. So I'm not a stereotypical gay? Go figure. Just for fun, go tell
your gay friends that you are going straight and then prepare yourself for a
hell of a beating. You'll be called a poser and told to get out of the way.
Most gays don't talk like me? Thanks for acknowledging that SOME gays talk like
me. Thank you also for acknowledging that gay isn't inherent. It's great
advice to all of us that we can.. "go and get the therapy to help you become the
person you believe you are suppose to be..."
"Governor Huntsman is sworn to uphold the Utah Constitution, which recognizes
only true marriage. He has sadly and disappointingly failed to do so by speaking
in favor of other relationships."So, if Abraham Lincoln spoke
against slavery, he was not upholding the constitution? Slavery was a legal
right in the constitution.What say you?
"Another claims I'm a lair as he dissected my comment, simply because I'm not on
his band wagon. I don't know how many gays don't want to be gay, but I'm one of
them. Unfortunately the vitriol and hate we endure from fellow gays is even
greater than what they inflict on traditional marriage folks. From my
experience, most gays DO hate God, unless they can restructure him into
something that is accepting of them. We gays know in our hearts that we are
wrong with God and society, so the militants who won't accept that are bent on
forcing everyone to call them good."Marty, Marty.If you became gay because of being abused, that is a learned trait. It can be
unlearned by reparative therapy. Remember Pavlov's dogs.If you are
born with this trait, it cannot be trained out of you. You can use your right
hand, but all left handed people will naturally want to use their left hand.
That is inborn (there is a gene that they have found, btw) and will never leave.
You spoke about what ALL GAYS feel. The vast majority do not feel
"My gay friend says that civil unions are not enough. He and his pals want their
partnerships to be called marriages by the government because only then can they
demand equal treatment and respect as well as legal support for their
lifestyle."Right ON! And the demand for legal support means that
anything considered by them to be opposition of their life choice will be a
serious hate crime. Goodby good neighbors. Goodby parental teachings. Goodby
children when the children slip and say something considered bad, for they must
be taken away from such cruel parents. Goodby Bible. Goodby religious
teachings. Goodby religious rights, PERIOD.This is a personal
CHOICE of life style issue, NOT a circumstance of nature. This is an issue of
POPULARITY, not a rational opposition to constitutional principle.Which means that facts are not acceptable to those maintaining such an
emotional commitment and is not allowed in any rational discourse. The only
response to such argument is a simple NO. Only then are the real colors of the
proponents seen and a witness of the level of selfishness and degree of violence
to be used against whomever they view as their opponents.
I think that this whole debate over gay marriage will seem really silly 50 years
from now. Just like it's hard to fathom how people could have been so awful to
the African-American community during and before the Civil Rights Movement. I
wish that people would stop seeing same-sex marriage as such a personal attack
on the family. Just let the LGBT community alone. They are people just like us
and deserve the same freedoms that we have. I feel that we should stop holding
their liberties and free agency from them.
Here is how it is written in the Utah Constitution. Article I,
Section 29. [Marriage.] (1) Marriage consists only of the
legal union between a man and a woman. (2) No other domestic union,
however denominated, may be recognized as a marriage or given the same or
substantially equivalent legal effect. Huntsman can talk all he
wants about equality - its a JOKE! The civil union option was taken away with
the passing of this amendment. Not only can GLBT people not marry they may also
have nothing that resembles marriage.Its discriminatory - plain and
I think the thing that alot of people in this country forget is that "Marriage"
is a religious term not a legal term. Civil union is the legal backing of
"Marriage". I for one agree completely with dave4197! All I want is equality,
I don't want a big white church wedding because I do not belong to a church. I
simply ask for an opportunity to be commited to my partner legally so that some
of the luxuries that heterosexual couples take for granted can be extended to me
and my partner. Health insurance, tax breaks, financial dependancy, hospital
rights, inheritance rights, and many more are being denied to me and all LGBT
citizens because people can't seem to distinguish a separation between their
religious beliefs and law making.
Huntsman is smart and shows great courage.
Governor Huntsman is sworn to uphold the Utah Constitution, which recognizes
only true marriage. He has sadly and disappointingly failed to do so by
speaking in favor of other relationships. Governor Huntsman has been praised as
"courageous" for his comments. I disagree. Courage would have been to
publicize his views on this important issue before the election, not after, when
the Republican party and the electorate in general couldn't do anything about
it. Some argue that he didn't hide his views before the election. I strongly
disagree. He has betrayed the confidence that I and many others placed in him
with our votes. If he had made his views clearly known before the election, he
would not be governor today.
Marty | 12:35 p.m. April 21, 2009 Marty,I have to take
issue with the things you are saying.Most gays hate God?Really?I do not hate God. As a matter of fact, I believe in
God.It seems to me, if your story were true, and you are "not a
practicing gay" how would you then know so many gays?If your circle
of gays only includes atheists that is a matter of anectodal reference, not
based on demographic data.I will have to say that if you are indeed,
gay, you come across as not genuine."We gays know in our hearts?"Really?Your tone is indicative of someone posing as gay.Sorry.Most gays do not talk like that.
"We gays know in our hearts that we are wrong with God and society." and how
exactly is this speaking only for yourself? it sounds a lot like you are trying
to speak for the gay community to me. Look if you feel distress passed on your
feelings of attraction towards the same sex then go and get the therapy to help
you become the person you believe you are suppose to be but stop speaking for
Equal | 9:46 p.m. April 20, 2009 You wrote,"Marriage is
between a man and a woman and it doesn't discriminate based on sexual
preference. A man is not a woman and a woman is not a man. Leave the definition
of marriage as it is. No rights are being denied here."Your
definition of equality only takes into account the heterosexuals. There is a
great percentage of other humans, who have been around as long as people have
been around, who are also just as equally deserve fair and equal treatment.By your definition - "a man is not a woman" is already troublesome.What about hermaphrodites?What are they?Are they
boggles the mind.That biological perspective shows that biology
alone cannot determine identity.Sometimes, for those people, their
identity is chosen by their parents and they are raised with a certain
identity.At other times, the person later chooses which identity
they want to grow up to have.
My how the militant homosexuals rail against their own when they don't accept
the gay life and agenda. I was admonished here to speak for myself, which I was.
Another claims I'm a lair as he dissected my comment, simply because I'm not on
his band wagon. I don't know how many gays don't want to be gay, but I'm one of
them. Unfortunately the vitriol and hate we endure from fellow gays is even
greater than what they inflict on traditional marriage folks. From my
experience, most gays DO hate God, unless they can restructure him into
something that is accepting of them. We gays know in our hearts that we are
wrong with God and society, so the militants who won't accept that are bent on
forcing everyone to call them good and Gov Huntsman wants their political clout
to advance his political hopes, being the politician that he is.
You wrote,my opinion | 8:19 p.m. April 20, 2009 "Under the
constitution equal rights are to be given to every individual, so civil unions
should be given. Civil unions are not the question. The real question is the
same as it has always been...homosexual men and women want to be accepted as
"normal" so that is why they won't concede to only have equal rights given under
civil unions. THAT is why there is such a great push for Gay marriage...to be
accepted as a normal lifestyle."You beg the question --- what is
normal?Is heterosexual normal?By implication, therefore,
you are saying, that gays are abnormal.I do not buy it.Different, yes.Abnormal, no.Difference does not equate
abnormality. As long as we keep thinking that way we will hold to a certain
paradigm of the heteronormative and exclude people from being fully certified
human beings, capable of loving and living committed lives.We have
lived too long in the country by labeling people "not normal" that when we take
a look and try to define, what really is normal.Guess what --- no
one is normal.Everyone is different.
observing canuck | 7:04 p.m. April 20, 2009 If you want to make the
comparison of Canada to Sodom and Gomorrah, as the thought seems to imply ---According to your definition of Sodom and Gomorrah, the people were
destroyed because of homosexuality, but that's another topic.Let's
say they did, for the sake of argument.Remember, the Genesis account
of Sodom and Gomorrah has the story where Abraham asks "Peradventure I find one
hundred..." and"Peradventure I find fifty" and"Peradventure I find twenty" and so on...How many LDS and other
Christians are in Canada, exactly?Are any of them in danger of your
definition of the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah, per your definition and
interpretation of the Genesis account?
Fool all of the people some of the time; and, some of the peoples all the time;
but, you can not fool all of the people all of the time.The Governor
& Sen. Hatch both demonstrate that you only have to fool most of the people
during the Republican Nominating Convention. For a six month period leading up
to the convention, "moderates and centrist," like Sen. Hatch, Gov. Huntsman; and
yes, Mitt Romney, sound slightly to the right of Ronald Reagan.Once
past the convention, they go back to pushing their RINO agendas of
amnesty/taxpayer subsidized benefits for illegal-aliens; higher taxes &
earmarks; special bills for friends and campaign contributors; support for civil
unions; national socialized healthcare; pandering to environmentalist with
carbon-taxes, prohibitions to gas/oil drilling, and the promotion of roping off
even more land in Utah-- so our great-grand children will not be able to see or
visit it either.If anyone is actually surprised by the position of
our Governor on civil unions; it only shows that they have not been paying
attention for the last several years. Unfortunately,people generally
get the kind of government they deserve.
Just a thought | 7:43 p.m. April 20, 2009 You wrote,"I am for
giving "equal treatment in law." However, to what extent? Are we to allow civil
unions regardless of gender, number of partners, and/or age for instance?"This has been discussed several times.If you look at
countries like Canada and Spain, did the polygamists all of a sudden come out of
their closets and want their rights pertaining to having more than one wife?Or for that matter, have polyandry women come out and asked for their
right to have more than one husband?I haven't seen it.Has anyone?Have courts anywhere in the country or have any groups
made a stance that they want to be married to minors?If no one has
asked for these "rights" why are you bringing this to the table?Do
you know anyone who does?It seems merely more of "what if"
speculation ---True --- what if ---* What if someone
wants to marry their pet?* Or have Ted and Mary marry Joe and Sophia?Purely speculative --- based on nothing, but fears used to clutter the
I could care less about "gay rights." But I strongly favor "liberty and
justice" for all and I understand the strong difference between a Temple
Marriage and a Civil Marriage. If we purport to care so strongly about the
institution of marriage, why are so many Mormons divorced? Why not ban divorce?
Ireland's done it. What a wonderful world it can be when we consciously choose
to stop seeing inequality among God's children. Utah's shame is that its
statutory rape age was 14 until the Olympics came to town in 2002, the nation's
lowest age and Utah still refuses to prosecute widespread polygamy in Utah
Valley. Its shame is that it leads the nation in teen suicide, teen
homelessness, personal bankruptcies and the use of "mommy's little helpers" per
capita and is on the very low end of sending its children into our military
organizations. In short, its shame is that it is guilty of the sin mentioned
more than any other in the Bible...hypocrisy. All these facts in a State that
pretends to be all about family values. Ironic...and sad.
Do you really think two gay people will choose a heterosexual marriage if they
can't have a same-sex marriage? Seriously?Do you think the state's
only interest in marriage is to produce children? Seriously?No, you
aren't guaranteed the right to marry who you love, but you aren't prohibited
either! I suspect the enormous divorce rate is partially due to the attitude
you propose: people marrying for children, not for love. Seriously!
Marriage vs. Civil Unions God is on the side of equality... Separate
is never equal.
"The hate filled Right-wingers" are being told "Like it or not" you "have to
accept" homosexuality. We are yelled at and called bigots. You think you are
discrimiated against for being gay, try standing up for your belief that
marriage is between a man and woman. I had to check to make sure I didn't ahve
horns on my head! People acted like I was the devil for it!
Marriage Vs. Civil Unions,God is on the side of equality... Separate is
... that Orson Scott Card "represents the Church." If so, that is a bigger
story than the Guv's support of civil unions. Please tell me the LDS church is
not being represented by novelist/playrights who have joined the media circus as
pseudo-journalist/film critic/editorialists. Hopefully this should have been
written: "Mormon Times editorial writer, Orson Scott Card, is on the board."
"Heterosexual marriage is the only union that produces children and therefore
should be the only union with incentives."Why do we allow infertile
people to marry with all the benefits?Why do we allow older women to
marry with all the benefits?Why do we allow couples who do not want
children and will never have them, to marry with all the benefits?If
you treat some people differently because they cannot have children, you must
treat all people with the same condition alike. Read the ruling by the Iowa
Supreme Court.This is America. Some day you are going to wake up
and realize that prohibiting gays from marrying is against everything that we,
as Americans, hold sacred in this great land.
"Civil unions??? Please. They don't want civil unions. The minute they get
them, they will pronounce their dissatisfaction with the status quo and demand
marriage. After all, civil unions are not "equal" with marriage. It is a
slippery slope and they will not stop until they achieve what they perceive as
equal marriage."Why shouldn't they be treated equally? They are
Americans - just the same as you and me. They are not breaking any civil law.
Why should we treat them differently? Tradition? It was tradition that a wife
be considered property. It was tradition that blacks and whites could not
marry. It was tradition that women could not vote. We know that all traditions
do NOT come close to what our constitution says it correct. I have
often wondered where all the LDS constitutional scholars went. They should
absolutely know that discriminating based on religious beliefs is not to be
allowed under our divinely inspired constitution. Where are they?
"Love the Lord your God above all others, and Love your neighbor as yourself"Each person and religion claiming to be a master of the Gospel of Jesus Christ
interprets scripture with a different eye, and a different mind. Most do it
through through the lens of fear of the unknown other. GLBT people have been
forced to hide through fear, intimidation, economic hardship, and downright
violence,, which I have seen with my own eyes.How long will you hold to
The governor seems to be just positioning himself for national politics at
Utah's expense.oops. Won't be voting for him next time, wherever that may
be.I'm reading that some Republicans are talking about backing gay
marriage to gather a large enough following. To those Republicans, be careful
because for some of us it has never been about the party, rather it has been
about the values and some values are not going to be compromised. The governor
will put us to the test to find out if Utahns are committed Republicans, or
committed to traditional marriage. I think it will show that a surprising number
of Utahns will drop the Republican party in a blink.
holds no water whatsoever. Heterosexual marriage guarantees nobody "the right
to marry the person you love." Heterosexual marriage is the only union that
produces children and therefore should be the only union with incentives. If
gays want to be together, fine...but a gay relationship is a net negative on
society (no children and 2 heterosexual unions are precluded), therefore, the
government should treat it like it treats high school sweethearts- with no
Good to see that our governor supports equal treatment of all human beings. I
would sure hate to think that equality is a partisan issue, and glad that
Huntsman is proving that wrong. He's on the right side of history.
Governments within the U.S. are obligated to treat all, irrespective of
religious views, equally under the law. The solution is simple. The U.S.
government should no longer recognize anything other than a state
sanctioned/performed civil marriage (I would say "unions," but I see no reason
why religions have a monopoly on a sterile word like "marriage"). These civil
marriages would provide all of the present rights and privileges granted to
marriages; and, they would be equally available to all consenting adult couples,
regardless of gender or sexuality. Religions could then perform
whatever additional unique marriage ceremonies they wish to perform, but none
will be recognized by the United States as a substitute for a civil marriage.
Mormons can go on claiming to have the only real eternal marriages, while
Catholics can fight them back, and Born Agains can hate them both. The only
people who will care are their members and prospective converts.
Civil unions??? Please. They don't want civil unions. The minute they get them,
they will pronounce their dissatisfaction with the status quo and demand
marriage. After all, civil unions are not "equal" with marriage. It is a
slippery slope and they will not stop until they achieve what they perceive as
The battle has already been won! A majority of youth all over this world are
ready for equality. It's only a matter of time before enough of the older
generation passes away and the youth come of voting age. The youth recognize
the kind, loving, successful, committed, hardworking individuals who happend to
be homosexual. Most importantly, they also recognized the hate, deceit,
hypocricy, and fear spewed from the "religious right," particularly the LDS
Church. They have weighed you in the balance and you have been found
lacking!Think of it this way, "No unhallowed hand can stop the work
I have a large family and although I don't approve I do accept that two on my
children are gay. I have that about this many times, what choice do I have. I
love my children, they are welcomed in my home, they both have life partners
and they are welcome in my home. What I want is the word marriage. I want that
to be my word meaning a heterosexual union.Gays and lesbians can
have all the legal rights and commitment of a civil union, just not the work
The Government is not the church. This is exactly why there is a seperation of
church and state. Now, Get over it.Furthermore, we're suppose to
clease the inner vessel, judge not and do everything we can to better ourselves
by showing love and kindness to everyone - especially those we don't come eye to
eye with.He who is without sin, cast the first stone.
If religious people are so interested in protecting "traditional" marriage
(whatever that means), why aren't you demanding an end to divorce? When states
start passing constitutional amendments banning divorce, then I will believe
religious folks are actually interesting in saving marriages rather than
punishing people because they are different.
"I can choose to live my life differently without feeling threatened on how they
live theirs."This is where I have ended up too. Let them have their
lives here in America and I will have mine. I am not threatened by them.Why were we ever threatened by them?
Marty | 7:56 a.m. April 21, 2009 "I am homosexual. I have fought it ever
since I was seduced by a trusted person as a teen."Mayabe you are
not homosexual. Most homosexuals I know were NOT abused."I
understand the GLBT mind. We know we are wrong with God, so we reject and hate
God."I do not believe you know the homosexual mind. Most gays do
NOT hate God. "We know we are wrong with tradition, so we reject and
hate tradition. We know we are wrong with history, so we reject that too. I
choose not to reject those things one day and realized I can control my own
life."I think you are posing as a homosexual. You do not sound like
anyone I know and I have been around gays for at least 30 years. Lying for the Lord is still lying.
Didn't read Lincoln's speech, but I am guessing he was talking about slavery.
Are you sure that is the comparison you want to run in advancing your point of
view on the civil union/marriage issue?
Huntsman is not planning another guv run, he has bigger ambitions.@Marty: Human beings are easily sexualized by their first encounters, they
can become sexualized to a shoe. It takes meditation, prayer and rejection of
habitual thinking to excape the bad habits. Keep working on it. You are honest
with yourself and others, that the first step to freedom.If advocacy
homosexuals get their way, the population will have more people who are
sexualized to an aberrant behavior, more disease, more unhappiness, more
inability to move ahead in life with the breath of God behind you.This is a fight society cannot afford to lose.
Marty, speak for yourself. Many gay people do not think like you do so you
cannot speak for them or make the assumption that they're all guilt ridden.Balderdash. You have been brainwashed by the religious right.
Huntsman is right on! As Christians we should "do unto others as we would have
done unto us" which means treating people with dignity and equality. We can
love the sinner (and allow them their rights since all men are created equal)
while hating the sin (and teaching our children to behave differently). I feel
the same towards those who drink, smoke, and attend Sunday NBA games. They have
their rights, they can still be my friend, and I can choose to live my life
differently without feeling threatened on how they live theirs.
John Huntsman doesn't know it yet, but he has lost his governorship and any
chance at become a GOP hopeful for President. I will be very surprised if he
wins another election.
This is not news. How did pointing out that someone's position favoring civil
unions drew the ire of groups that are against them constitute meaningful
information. Were there some readers out there who thought NOM would be
supportive of Huntsman on this?Once again, DN providing some free ad
space for organizations that support the LDS doctrine. I want my four minutes
of time back.
I am homosexual. I have fought it ever since I was seduced by a trusted person
as a teen. I had all but given in. I understand the GLBT mind. We know we are
wrong with God, so we reject and hate God. We know we are wrong with tradition,
so we reject and hate tradition. We know we are wrong with history, so we reject
that too. I choose not to reject those things one day and realized I can control
my own life. I'm sorry the Gov is enabling this in a foolish political game.
I think Professor George really doesn't know what he is talking about. Anything
can happen in politics. Four years ago, President Obama was not considered a
likely president in the near term. That being said, I'm LDS, not gay, but I
think the Governor is correct. People should focus on their own marriages and
their own lives, and leave others alone as to what they do in their personal
lives, whether finances, bedroom activities or living arrangements. So what!
I guess this means that Jon Huntsman can't be Miss USA, either.
I take offense at the statement, "The governor doesn't take a position in an
effort to gain attention." How ludicrous a statement is this when all that he
does is to get attention. He is two-faced meaning hypocritical or
I'm almost as old as Lincoln's address, and so I respectfully decline (on topic)
reading his words, again. I prefer pondering the comments, here, enjoying the
conversation. Let me remain hopeful that gospel-oriented folks stay
true to their convictions--for themselves--and continue gifting others their
Christian spirit to live similarly well without judgment.
Read Lincoln address:Speech at New HavenMarch 6, 1860
It all sounds so reasonable. Religious marriage for the religious and civil
unions for all. Not so different from what we have now; the religious ceremony
only serves as witness to the license issued by the state, as far as the state
is concerned. So suppose we change the license from husband and wife to partner
and partner with no respect to sex. Then we can all get along.Until
extremists demand that the churches sanction their legal union regardless of
religious objections.Until the multiple-partner crowd demands equal
treatment.Until they both demand that any agency licensed to arrange
adoptions serve their same-sex or multiple-partner family regardless of
religious objections.Until pedophiles demand an end to
age-discrimination in civil unions.I'd rather appear unreasonable
and draw the line where we are right now than fight those fights later on.
First, the insurance-based arguments are bogus. I worked for a credit union in
California that for many years has offered benefits to domestic partners.
Places of employment make those policies. Hospitals set visitation rights.
None of these institutions require the government to advocate same sex marriage
to make this possible.Second, saying that Orson Scott Card is the
LDS church representative on that board is like saying my participation in the
PTA signifies that the church has placed their stake in that organization, or
that my purchase of a Coke implies direct funding to Coca Cola corporation by
the LDS church. It seems like willful ignorance when reporters equate
individual church members with the church as a whole. Sure, the church and this
group may share many similar values, but you can be sure that eventually that
group will differ from the church on some stance and thus the church will never
officially sanction it.Last, the marriage argument is not about
equal rights. If so, those who receive all the legal privileges via civil
unions would be satisfied. At the root, it's the homosexual community's attempt
to have their lifestyle publicly legitimized.
"Some things that are right legally are not right morally." Lincoln
said this about slavery, although the comparison may fit.Speech at
New Haven, March 6, 1860
"Some things that are right legally are not right morally." I think this issue
falls in that category. We are a country losing our moral values and sliding
When we're born, we look to the state to certify it. When we want to buy a car,
own a dog or a home or an aircraft, we look to the state to permit and certify.
When we divorce, guess who's court we end up in? We need to recognise and
regulate marriage for what it is, a civil union in society. A contract. You want
the church veneer on it, fine, but fine if you don't, too. It's the slippery
You should be able to marry the one person you love. Loving another human, male
or female, is no threat to anyone. Never has been, never will be.
Great job Governor Huntsman by winning the praises of Frank Rich and the New
York Times. Politically, you state that you are a Republican, but many of your
liberal ideas are showing through. The result of these moves towards gay
marriage, gay civil unions, or whatever you want to call them is on the slippery
slope downward. The law of unintended (negative) consequences will very likely
be the result, with the strongest negative effects being among young men, young
women, and children.
I wish that the government would get out of the marriage business. Have civil
unions for everyone, straight or gay, and let churches decide who they want to
marry. Problem solved.
For all those who feel that civil unions would take care of this remember:
DOMA! (Defense of Marriage Act. 1996)Federally, the US does not
acknowledge same sex married couples for taxes. Few businesses, if any,
recognize them for pensions. Estate planning is difficult (expensive) if not
impossible.I agree with others, give every US citizen the civil
marriage, then after that - the churches can decide who they will accept.
My gay friend says that civil unions are not enough. He and his pals want their
partnerships to be called marriages by the government because only then can they
demand equal treatment and respect as well as legal support for their lifestyle.
Marriage is between a man and a woman and it doesn't discriminate based on
sexual preference. A man is not a woman and a woman is not a man. Leave the
definition of marriage as it is. No rights are being denied here.
Or one step beyond that...just get the state out of the marriage business all
together. Couples (straight or gay) go to the state for their Civil Union
license and then, if they so choose, go to whatever religious institution they
want for a marriage. Gay couples can get married by regligions that don't see a
problem with it and straight couples can get married by the religion of their
choice. Or if you don't believe in religion you just call it good with your
Civil Union.This prevents religions from having legal definitions
forced on them by the state with which they don't agree. I honestly couldn't
care less about the wedding license I got from the state beyond the rights it
affords me. I care about my religious wedding much more. So provide
the same civil liberties to couples of any kind under nationwide Civil Unions.
And let religions own the marriage business.States should decide
though on certain things like adoption. Honestly I'd have to see some good data
to tell you my view on that. But survivorship, insurance, visitation, I'm
comfortable with all of that. It makes sense.
Please remeber that everyone should be treated equally by the state and allowed
a civil union. The chruch is still free to choose whom should receive the
marriage rights and who whould not.
Under the constitution equal rights are to be given to every individual, so
civil unions should be given. Civil unions are not the question. The real
question is the same as it has always been...homosexual men and women want to be
accepted as "normal" so that is why they won't concede to only have equal rights
given under civil unions. THAT is why there is such a great push for Gay
marriage...to be accepted as a normal lifestyle.
Civil union is everything but the religious ceremony, isn't it? So what's the
big deal if they stand up before their chosen clergy to say vows?
Why not have two forms and everyone should be happy. Let there be religious
marriage (church, temple, mosque, synagogue, hall) and civil marriage (performed
by minister, lay person, judge, person authorized by the state). There will be
religious institutions that will allow marriage and there will be couples
opposite sex that want a civil marriage.
Gov. will be remembered for his desire to seek the will of the people. He is
fufilling his role as an elected leader. He is an example to fellow Gov's
throughout the land,"to serve the interests of the people". The people must be
accountable fo their actions and decisions ultimately. But least he is honest
and not self serving and self righteous like so many other politicians.Three cheers for Mr Huntsman.
This should be open for discussion.
I am for giving "equal treatment in law." However, to what extent? Are we to
allow civil unions regardless of gender, number of partners, and/or age for
Look, you open the same privileges up to gay couples and you're endorsing the
principle of gay marriage. Pretty simple. Just call it what it is. Huntsman
gets zero points on this one.
As as a straight,and LDS Canadian who lives in acountry which allows same
sex marriages...all I can say is that this man does not wantto be governor
any more of the reddest state of the union ,let alone be President.
I don't agree with same sex relationships,never
will.Also I agree with tthe 1995 proclamation from the church of what
constitutes a family accordingto God. But I will say this that I was
raised by a righteous,LDS mother who taught me tolerance to allof God's
children and....also my great country ofCanada has not become the Sodom
and Gomorrha of the north!
Civil unions do not constitute marriages.People living in the same
household should be entitled to equal protection and rights under the law.I should be able to provide insurance benefits and protections to my
dependents regardless of whether they are my children, aged parents, common law
wife, or committed partner.Families are more than just heterosexual
couples with biological children.
Thank God for our wonderful Governor Huntsman who supports equality for all
human beings! Liberty and Justice for all! One day, all people will be treated
equally! We as the LGBT community and our supporters will not surrender until
we have won this hate filled war! We are not going away, get used to it!
Civil unions are the way to go, it's a no brainer. Let them have same sex
unions, employee paid benefits, inheritances, and other "equal treatment in
law", including make them responsible for each others' welfare, like married
couples. But the last thing we need is to change marriage into something it's