Deseret News | 5% flat tax affects more Utahns than expected

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5% flat tax affects more Utahns than expected

Margaret | 10:47 p.m. March 30, 2009

That is the point of a flat tax - the wealthy pay "more" than the middle and lower class, because "more" is still a smaller percentage of the total income for the wealthy than it is for those whose earnings are less. In other words, the system works just as it should.

Witholding system | 6:30 a.m. March 31, 2009

This new flat tax system is very flawed and misleading. It is inherent in a flat tax system. Employers should be mandated to withhold more taxes and the withhold system should have also been modified. Another problem is with those haveing more than one low income jobs where withholding is based on gross income of a single job. When the number of jobs and income is totalted the withholding is insufficient to cover tax liability. This may have been an intended affect to give payday lenders more victims to prey on. Workers should also get more involved in their withholdings to cover these deferred taxes. Multiple low income jobs is the main cause of shortages in withholding of taxes and workers should ask employers to make adjustments to withholding at every job.

Flat or fixed? | 6:43 a.m. March 31, 2009

If it is a flat tax, what is there to tweak? Either it is a flat tax or it is not. Obviously it is not a flat tax if it worked better before politics got involved. Again we were told one thing and the legislature did another. Even the name is misleading.

Comments continue below

Pasomeore | 7:05 a.m. March 31, 2009

I get to write out a check to the state. First time in 13 years. I love the flat tax because I think that it is fair. I think the state needs to get their withholding act together. I will give them another year before I bring in the goon squad.

bless Huntsman | 7:38 a.m. March 31, 2009

the upper income pay their fair share, oh my heck!

less tax write-offs, heck no!

beware, the rich & powerful are whining at the speed of sound, and unfortunately, have the financial power to possibly over-turn Huntsman's awesome tax changes.

maybe the Federal gov't can learn something from Governor Huntsman.

Indoctrination complete | 8:10 a.m. March 31, 2009

When the majority of people judge whether taxes are too high or too low based on the size of their refund on April 15th, you know that the indoctrination is complete.

Every penny you get back in a refund represents an interest free loan you gave to the government. We have become a "how much are the monthly payments" society rather than a "how much does this thing actually cost" society. No wonder so many people are in debt up to their eyeballs.

We should do away with the whole "withholding" system altogether and send everyone a monthly or quarterly bill for their taxes just like the cable company or phone company does. Maybe then, people would be outraged at how much our socialized government is costing them.

sodiedog | 8:13 a.m. March 31, 2009

It's only a flat tax if deductions are eliminated.

I don't get it | 8:30 a.m. March 31, 2009

I have never changed my withholding. Last year I had a refund of $320. This year I paid $72. Both years my federal returns were within pennies of each other. So how is it that my employer is at fault for not withholding enough? I still paid more and I am not in a high income bracket. I am in the middle.

Slag0500 | 8:33 a.m. March 31, 2009

You people are missing the point. The reason the flat tax is so high is because the government is misusing tax money for illegal purposes. The only constitutional use of tax money by a state government is use to protect its citizens from crime. If the state would follow the constitution and limit its spending to this area, taxes would be low--as they should be.

Jonathan | 8:36 a.m. March 31, 2009

I paid more in state taxes this year over last year, even though I made less, and I am not rich...

It's ridiculous that I can get a refund from the federal, yet still pay the state, and it's getting more and more to the state even though I'm not making anymore...

Anonymous | 8:44 a.m. March 31, 2009

This flat tax is nothing but smoke and mirrors as I also ended up PAYING MORE tax this year. Not only that but the withholding tables are screwed up. I change my exemptions from 2 to 0 and my withholding did not change.

Check your pay stub | 8:45 a.m. March 31, 2009

Though you didn't change your withholding, the state did. Take a look at your pay stub. You will probably find that you received around a $500 dollar reduction in your state tax withholding (mine was $106.32 - $87.15 = $19.17 x 26 paychecks = $498). Unfortunately, my tax cut was only $200 so my refund shrunk by $300. If you were single, your tax cut was only around $100 - so I can easily see how with the withholding change, made the $400 difference!

Ty | 8:50 a.m. March 31, 2009

I personally think this whole thing is bunk!! Every year that I've been paying taxes to the state I have received some sort of refund. I am a 29 year old male with no kids or dependants. My income is taxed almost a THIRD of my gross monthly income. This year when I was doing my taxes online I got a good federal return and when I did my State taxes it came back and said that I wouldn't receive any money for my State refund! Every other year I have gotten back at least $300.00 or more! But this year it said ZERO!! I wrote an Email to the Tax Master for the state and he wrote me back saying it was because of the new "Flat 5% tax" I asked him why I didn't receive any refund and said that it didn't seem very fair. He said that it was actually good tax preparation that. But I don't think it's fair at all!

Anonymous | 9:02 a.m. March 31, 2009

I love reading high school dropouts turned constitutional experts after years of right wing biased lies. The state can only tax to protect for crimes. When, do you foresee the courts ruling in your favor?

As a single taxpayer I hate whiners. I pay or what you whiners would call have the government steal my money to educate kids that aren't mind. I don't get government welfare via deductions; I pay my way.

Fredd | 9:20 a.m. March 31, 2009

Why is a progressive tax system unfair?

Too Old to be Shocked | 9:32 a.m. March 31, 2009

In the 2007 Tax Season, I followed the option to use the "old" system rather than the "new" because it saved me several hundred dollars.

Those of you who remember the purposes for the flat tax--was it to even out the taxing levels or was it an effort to reduce the amount of paperwork inherent to the old system?

Wait until the Feds (in their form of genius) spring their version of "flat tax" and the nation will resound with screams of inequality, but the filing processes will be easier.

Tax Preparer | 9:38 a.m. March 31, 2009

In my 10 years of preparing taxes, this year is the first when the majority of my clients are owing the State of Utah when filing their returns. I've personally been advising having a lower number of exemptions for Utah purposes given to payroll departments to avoid this problem in 2009. The Tax Commission really botched the withholding tables!

Refund is not your tax | 9:45 a.m. March 31, 2009

It's sad to see how many people think about income taxes only in terms of their refund or their check sent in. It should be your total tax for the year that matters. Why do people think it's great to be overpaying through the year and then get a refund at the end of the year? I prefer to keep my money during the year and get no refund or even send in a little, thanks.

Hey, Bob, as the deeply critically questioning reporter I know that you are, did you think to ask your buddy Doug McDonald how he came up with his estimates?

Big jump this year | 9:55 a.m. March 31, 2009

I had to pay more and I'm anything but upper middle class or rich. Last year (using the "old" system) I owed the State of Utah about $120 at tax time that hadn't been withheld. This year, I owe the state $732.

Zach | 10:34 a.m. March 31, 2009

It's amazing how ignorant most people are.

Guess what people....getting a small (or no) refund means you had the PROPER amount of taxes taken out.

How is it that people don't even understand BASIC taxes?

The refund at the end of the year is given because you PAID more than you needed. You gave the goverment a FREE loan. At least in your savings account you'd earn a minimal interest.

WAKE UP PEOPLE AND EDUCATE YOURSELF......

How much did you PAY in state income tax last year compared to this year?

CB | 10:37 a.m. March 31, 2009

We too, living on retirement had to come up with a whooping 4 figure amount over our taxes last year. Interesting enough, most of it was because we had to take more out than was required, to meet the taxes we had to pay, state and Fed. and as we were told it was because of the flat tax. Good-by to our Symphony Tickets, our Logan Operas, our one time get-away.
With a RINO governor and the Democratic Congress, we can plan on living maybe 5 more years. By that time, I'm sure they will have a plan to rid themselves of the growing elderly population.

Knowwhat | 10:45 a.m. March 31, 2009

I am paying about $400 more that last year. What do you expect from the tax and spend Republicans.

Ripped Off Again | 10:55 a.m. March 31, 2009

sThey say only 18% had a tax increase. Our legislatures and Governor are lying to us again. Look at all the comments on here and also KSL. When tax preparers are saying most everyone is paying more or getting less of a refund they out to know. This is the least amount I have ever recieved in 20 years. I'm in the same tax bracket, I haven't made anymore than last year but my refund was cut by more than 50%. I haven't talked to anyone who has come out ahead. I have talked to hundreds, friends, family and at my job. I have contact with alot of the general public in my line of work. I have talked to people who make alot of money to some who don't and it's always the same response about paying alot more or recieving a lot less of a refund. Times are tough and with the economy we don't need to be taxed anymore. Utah is already taxed more than anywhere else. I know alot of people who are just barely getting by. When is it going to end? Never in Utah.

Anonymous | 11:08 a.m. March 31, 2009

I hate paying taxes, but it's a necessary evil. But I like the flat tax, it's more fair. What I really hate, though, is actually WRITING THE CHECK.

Chris | 11:23 a.m. March 31, 2009

"Refund is not your tax": This is not the best time to criticize taxpayers for having too much money withheld. The 0% return I'm getting from the government on these prepaid taxes isn't much worse than the 0.7% interest my credit union pays on savings, and it's a whole lot better than the -50% return I'm currently getting on my retirement fund. :-(

Utah taxes | 11:23 a.m. March 31, 2009

Everyone I know has to pay more to Utah taxes before April 15. Last year I got a refund. This year I'm getting $3,000 back in my federal refund and have to pay $500 to Utah, now tell me that Utah's system is not messed up? Who elects these clowns?

So let me get this straight | 11:30 a.m. March 31, 2009

The rich are whining because their taxes increased. Forgive me for not feeling sorry for them. They make up a much smaller percentage of the general public. And no, it really has nothing to do with them "earning" it. It's easy to make money from money. The largest percentage of americans are two income families and still struggling to keep their children feed and clothed. Nevermind getting dearly needed healthcare. They DON'T eat out every night, they DON'T drive a car less than 10 years old, they DON'T have savings/retirement/investments. And it doesn't have anything to do with them spending frivilously. GROSS. Selfishness and hypocricy. You really are just another person, the money doesn't make you more important, doesn't make you smarter, and certainly doesn't make you a better person.

Dick | 11:33 a.m. March 31, 2009

People just don't get it.

In a true flat tax system, the rich get a tax break and the poor/middle class get a tax increase when compared to a progressive tax system.

Everyone thinks a flat tax is the way to go but how do they think the decrease from a wealthy marginal tax rate of 35% to 20% is going to be made up? Clearly, those that have a marginal or effective rate of 10% have to pay more.

Anonymous | 11:33 a.m. March 31, 2009

The legislature needs to leave the flat tax right where it's at and let it take the time to kick in.

All tax changes have their negative effect periods of time while the population adjusts to the new change.

It's a given fact that a 'flat' tax is the most fair and responsible tax there is on income. Everyone pays the same exact portion of their income, including the wealthy and privileged... and because the wealthy and privileged are paying their fair share the mainstream tax payer is not having to subsidize the 3 to 4 percent of that 5% they would have gotten out of. So it all balances out.

Simply do the math! It only needs the time to kick in so we can actually see and experience the benefits of a 'flat' tax system, that then needs to be done on the federal income tax level.

The benefits will become all too obvious if given a chance to happen.

Re ripped off again | 1:00 p.m. March 31, 2009

What exactly do you mean when you say "Utah is already taxed more than anywhere else"? That is nonsense. UT's 5% income tax is about in the middle of the pack. Plenty of states, like CA, have 9% income tax rates. Some, like TX and WA, have no income tax. But they make up for it in property tax. The money has to come from somewhere. Is it ok to assume you never use the park, the roads, the public schools, the libraries, that you never speed, etc?

Our sales tax is also lower than NV, AZ, and CA. Though CA does exempt food from sales tax, and UT doesn't.

It costs money to provide these benefits to society as a whole. So you want the benefits, but prefer someone else pay for them? UT is not highly taxed at all, especially when you consider how many kids we cram in a classroom. Honestly. How can people here have so many kids and just expect someone else to pay for them?

Dittohead | 1:07 p.m. March 31, 2009

Slag0500,

"...the government is misusing tax money for illegal purposes. The only constitutional use of tax money by a state government is use to protect its citizens from crime."

Apparently, you have never actually READ the Constitution. What you claim is NOWHERE to be found. What the Obama Administration is doing is COMPLETELY CONSTITUTIONAL!

Get a clue and stop listening to that idiot Glenn Beck. His knowledge of the Consitituion cannot compare to Obama's! Obama taught Constitutional Law for longer than Beck has been on the air!

arc | 1:07 p.m. March 31, 2009

This tax is backward. The majority of those making a lot are paying less, and those that are making less are paying more. Mortgages and charitable donations make a huge difference. The original tax law was about 7% with a run up to that fairly quick.

This is one time I wish Huntsman would leave things alone.

Thanks John H | 1:13 p.m. March 31, 2009

All I know is that as we have progressed to the flat tax, I pay a lot more to the State than to the Federal government. However in the previous 20 or so years before the change, I paid a more to the Feds. Thank you rich John Huntsman for the raise in taxes!!

Huntsman is a salesman | 1:28 p.m. March 31, 2009

He sold us a tax increase by telling us he was instituting a "flat tax".

We got a tax increase, period. This is not a flat tax either. Their are deductions where you take a percentage. It is still calculating taxes and defining income.

Why did we vote for a "slick willy" (I mean slick Huntsman).

The Real Truth | 3:15 p.m. March 31, 2009

My accountant told me that 90% of his clients are paying more in taxes under the so-called flat tax model than before. He said last year, people had a choice to file under the old system or the new flat system. He said that most of his clients benefited under the new system, not the old. He also said that the people who are seeing a big reduction in taxes are the wealthy--contrary to this article which has readers believing the opposite. I trust my accountant more than this newspaper who is in the hip pocket of proponents of the so-called flat tax.

Anonymous | 3:41 p.m. March 31, 2009

If republicans support it its about transferring money from working people to the already wealthy so they can invest more in things like credit default swaps, building condos and buying conservatives politicians.

To Zach: | 3:45 p.m. March 31, 2009

Per your comment: "How is it that people don't even understand BASIC taxes?"

IMO, it's because our taxing system has become so complex that you're average non-accountant cannot do it by themself w/o getting screwed. We need to pay tax professionals or buy tax software to help us do something that SHOULD be as easy as voting for the president. But it's not. Our tax law is so complex, it's ridiculous.

How about we go to sales tax only. That way, we pay as we spend. Put a higher tax on luxury items, and lower tax on groceries, etc. Rich can keep on spending. Those who want to save can to that - but we all get ALL the money we earn and decide from there where it goes.

I HATE tax season. Too complicated!

Do away with tax returns!!!!! | 4:17 p.m. March 31, 2009

Why not do a flat tax taken right out of the paycheck. Everyone pays the same rate no matter what exemptions, credits, deductions you may or may not have. No more paperwork. No more tax paying someone to do the tax return. And no more, at least significantly less) tax dodgers.

Reality check | 4:47 p.m. March 31, 2009

To Dittohead
The only thing Obama has taught anyone about the constitution lately is how to circumvent it. Are you going to tell me he understands it? He just took one of the basics (Cencus) from the check and balance the CONSTITUTION provides for and put it under HIS control! Yeah, he really does know the constitution of this country -- Too bad he doesn't repect it, or abide by it!

Anonymous | 4:50 p.m. March 31, 2009

Do away with tax returns!!!!! | 4:17 p.m.

Once again, you are so ignorant. You have no clue what you are talking about. There are corporate executives who receive "pay checks" that are a few hundred dollars a year because all their compensation comes in forms that are not classified as "income"! They drive very expensive company cars, fly in company jets, live in houses paid for by the company, eat every meal at company expense, and receive stock "options" and other financial instruments that make them very rich without their being paid a huge (taxable) income!

The problem with taxes is not that there are multiple tax brackets. The problem is in defining "income"!

Stop being such simpletons! You people have no clue what you are talking about!

brejol | 11:01 p.m. March 31, 2009

It doesn't matter if you pay more or less. A true flat tax with no deductions is fair. Anything else is discrimination. Let people whine and complain. Eventually we will get used to it.

Fedup | 11:27 p.m. March 31, 2009

Some say other states are taxed more like California and New York but look at the what people earn in those states compared to here. Yes their cost of living is higher but then so is their salary. Utah has to many kids to pay for in schools with our big families and yes somebody has to pay that. Other states benefit from gambling and the lottery which helps schools and taxes but that won't happen in Utah. I just don't like that our government officials told us that the majority of taxpayers would recieve a tax break or get more back and then still deny what is happening on a larger scale than 18%.

rpm | 11:41 p.m. March 31, 2009

MacDonald was not part of the pro flat tax group when he was with the tax commission. He tried to tell the legislature wht the results would be, but was told to keep quiet. So he resigned his position. We need more honorable people like MacDonald.

DUH | 12:51 a.m. April 1, 2009

Dear Fedup. The Lotto doesn't make much difference in helping schools. At the most it only accounts for 3% of a schools budget, and that is when people are buying tons of lotto tickets. Most often it only amounts to 1-2%. The other problem is in every state where there is a Lotto the legislature cut back on the money they allotted to schools because they thought the Lotto would be the solution to school funding.

Dear Ditto Head. this article is about Utah Tax laws, not federal so why even bring up what Obama is doing, he is not involved in setting Utah Tax laws. Quit trying to involve the President in our local issues to make yourself look good. If your comments were a school report you would flunk for not writing on the topic and bringing in extraneous material.

To Slaghead 500. First read the consititution before you make stupid comments. What you say does not even exist in the constitution.

Ron | 3:34 p.m. April 17, 2009

All I know is that I paid 8.5% more in income taxes total, and yes I had to send in a check because the withholding tables given to employers were wrong and didn't account for the 5% tax rate (how stupid do you have to be to mis-calculate something that simple) Bottom line is that the words coming out of our politician's mouth's about how they were going to reduce our taxes with this new system were once more little more than the usual lies...

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