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LDS Church defends itself against new allegations
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Alton | 11:08 p.m. March 19, 2009
Why don't the gays give it up. It was a free and fair election. If you
don't win do you protest forever? What difference does it make whose funds
went for or against the proposition. Any sympathy I felt is fast waning. If gays
are waiting for the Mormon church to say gay is okay, they are going to wait for
a long time. If gays really believe in what they are doing why does what the
Mormon Church thinks or does matter? Enough already!
re Alton | 11:08 p.m. March 19, | 11:23 p.m. March 19, 2009
" If gays are waiting for the Mormon church to say gay is okay, they are
going to wait for a long time."
You don't know your history very well do you? If the pressure gets too great, and if history is any guide, there will be a change.
You don't know your history very well do you? If the pressure gets too great, and if history is any guide, there will be a change.
Comments continue below
Raised right | 12:02 a.m. March 20, 2009
Money has nothing to do with Prop 8 passing, it is all moral values.
Re: Re: Alton | 1:02 a.m. March 20, 2009
If you see history as a guide, the government likes to pull a catch-22 on lots
of religions. If you also do your research, it wasn't from political
pressure because if any of it was, it would have happened right away when most
things you think were political pressure didn't happen for years after the
government tried to make the Church change it's ways. The Church
doesn't conform to what people think should be ok, but what they think God
says is ok. Everyone that conforms are just posers, like yourself.
What is so different?? | 1:14 a.m. March 20, 2009
It is the right of the LDS church to get involved in elections that have moral
implications (none more than this one). It is a fact of life that people
contribute and get involved. My formerly non-political daughter went up and down
her neighborhood knocking on doors to encourage people to vote because she felt
strongly about this issue. Are you going to tell me and her that we can't
vote our conscience?
Our democracy will survive only if we as citizens get involved and then abide by what the majority decides. We can't go along only when it suits us.
Our democracy will survive only if we as citizens get involved and then abide by what the majority decides. We can't go along only when it suits us.
Conejo | 1:16 a.m. March 20, 2009
@ Re Alton:
The perspective on history usually goes along with your personal belief system. If you believe that the LDS church is founded by Jesus Christ then you believe history reflects revelation given through Him to his church in regards to various public stances. However, insisting your colored glasses show everything in it's proper perspective, is going to be a tough sell.
The perspective on history usually goes along with your personal belief system. If you believe that the LDS church is founded by Jesus Christ then you believe history reflects revelation given through Him to his church in regards to various public stances. However, insisting your colored glasses show everything in it's proper perspective, is going to be a tough sell.
Mormon money | 1:55 a.m. March 20, 2009
Let the investigations begin. If the mormon church accurately disclosed its
financial contributions, then it has nothing to worry about. But if they played
a clandestine role in establishing the National Organization for Marriage, then
they should be prosecuted. That's the "moral" thing to do.
Dear Re Alton | 1:59 a.m. March 20, 2009
You are whistling in the wind if you think the gays will ever be acceptable to
the Church as a way of life. The revelation on the priesthood for all worthy
male members was a righteous revelation. God created man and woman and the man
was to leave his parents and cleave unto the woman. Man and woman were married
by God while in the Garden of Eden, and before death entered this world. He
also commanded them to multiply and replenish the earth. He, God, set the
pattern for marriage. It is a man and a woman for eternity. The CHurch cannot
and will not change its stance on gay marriag. TO do so would go against all it
has ever taught and it would cease to functio as God's Church and become a
church mixing doctrine with man's thinking. It would deny the revelations
from God. Period.
re re Alton | 2:19 a.m. March 20, 2009
What are you talking about the mormon church will never say gay is okay.
Conejo | 3:01 a.m. March 20, 2009
@ Mormon Money:
How many investigations would satisfy this person? As many as possible to harass the LDS church? I'm sure after this one is done there will be another claim, and another, and another. What I don't understand is how the LDS church was able to convince so many African Americans to vote "The Mormon" way. Maybe, just maybe, the majority of people in California actually don't want marriage to be re-defined by popular culture. I know it's a wild thought but at least consider it.
How many investigations would satisfy this person? As many as possible to harass the LDS church? I'm sure after this one is done there will be another claim, and another, and another. What I don't understand is how the LDS church was able to convince so many African Americans to vote "The Mormon" way. Maybe, just maybe, the majority of people in California actually don't want marriage to be re-defined by popular culture. I know it's a wild thought but at least consider it.
Please learn the law | 3:21 a.m. March 20, 2009
Mormon money,
"Let the investigations begin. If the mormon church accurately disclosed its financial contributions, then it has nothing to worry about."
The Church may end up suing Karger and Californians against Hate (a tax-exempt organization that took an active role in fighting Prop. 8) for slander, libel and defamation. The Church does not have to endure libelous conduct by others anymore than any other organization or business has to endure libelous or false statements. Karger isn't going to hide behind freedom of speech.
"But if they played a clandestine role in establishing the National Organization for Marriage, then they should be prosecuted."
What crime would they be prosecuted for? Please cite the actual statute in question. It is not illegal to start an organization or be involved in starting an organization nor would the Church have any reason to hide it since it has both a constitutional and legal right to start such organizations.
It's obvious Mormons are involved in NOM which is their right but the Church, which has no reason to deny involvement since it's legal, does so because it wasn't involved. Whey bother denying it when its legal to do?
"Let the investigations begin. If the mormon church accurately disclosed its financial contributions, then it has nothing to worry about."
The Church may end up suing Karger and Californians against Hate (a tax-exempt organization that took an active role in fighting Prop. 8) for slander, libel and defamation. The Church does not have to endure libelous conduct by others anymore than any other organization or business has to endure libelous or false statements. Karger isn't going to hide behind freedom of speech.
"But if they played a clandestine role in establishing the National Organization for Marriage, then they should be prosecuted."
What crime would they be prosecuted for? Please cite the actual statute in question. It is not illegal to start an organization or be involved in starting an organization nor would the Church have any reason to hide it since it has both a constitutional and legal right to start such organizations.
It's obvious Mormons are involved in NOM which is their right but the Church, which has no reason to deny involvement since it's legal, does so because it wasn't involved. Whey bother denying it when its legal to do?
They want gov't to endorse them | 3:36 a.m. March 20, 2009
Alton,
"Why don't the gays give it up. It was a free and fair election."
You have to understand what they are trying to do. They are trying to paint those who believe the the homosexual lifestyle is sinful as essentially the same as racists and have government endorse their belief that homosexuality isn't a sin and legally recognize homosexuality over the belief of those that believe it is a sin.
"If you don't win do you protest forever?"
That's exactly what they intend to do. They are mean, hateful, narrow-minded, intolerant bigots.
"If gays are waiting for the Mormon church to say gay is okay, they are going to wait for a long time."
They want to do one better than that and have the government declare that the Mormon Church is wrong and that homosexuality is not a sin, that it is a right, genetic and that they were "born that way" and anyone who believes differently will be labeled religious and told "sit down, shut up and do as you are told." Children are taught that their parents, and religious leaders are liars and that the gays moral and religious beliefs correct
"Why don't the gays give it up. It was a free and fair election."
You have to understand what they are trying to do. They are trying to paint those who believe the the homosexual lifestyle is sinful as essentially the same as racists and have government endorse their belief that homosexuality isn't a sin and legally recognize homosexuality over the belief of those that believe it is a sin.
"If you don't win do you protest forever?"
That's exactly what they intend to do. They are mean, hateful, narrow-minded, intolerant bigots.
"If gays are waiting for the Mormon church to say gay is okay, they are going to wait for a long time."
They want to do one better than that and have the government declare that the Mormon Church is wrong and that homosexuality is not a sin, that it is a right, genetic and that they were "born that way" and anyone who believes differently will be labeled religious and told "sit down, shut up and do as you are told." Children are taught that their parents, and religious leaders are liars and that the gays moral and religious beliefs correct
Seth | 4:15 a.m. March 20, 2009
Why do religions continue to feel like it's their right to get involved in
people's personal lives? For as long as this country has been around, the
religious have enjoyed pressing their own interpretation of "values"
on others.
Like it or not, some of us don't believe in god, and there is nothing binding us to live by "his" word. Realize that one day this battle will be in the same category as those who tried to keep interracial marriage illegal.
To me, intolerance and unequal rights are not commendable family values. I, for one, will be teaching my children better.
Like it or not, some of us don't believe in god, and there is nothing binding us to live by "his" word. Realize that one day this battle will be in the same category as those who tried to keep interracial marriage illegal.
To me, intolerance and unequal rights are not commendable family values. I, for one, will be teaching my children better.
Cats | 4:23 a.m. March 20, 2009
Californians Against Hate? That's pretty funny. Isn't it amazing how
religious bigotry has suddenly become a virtue. Those who practice it have
suddenly become victims.
"Evil will be thought good and good will be thought evil." The prophecies are coming to pass.
"Evil will be thought good and good will be thought evil." The prophecies are coming to pass.
G. Bigelow | 4:44 a.m. March 20, 2009
I agree with Alton on one thing, who cares what the Mormons think? The best
thing about this country is that we all have the freedom to live how we wish.
However, what everyone must remember is that we need to be respectful of our
peers personal choices and not judge one another so cruely and without merit. No
matter how Godly you think you are, it is not right to judge one another on this
Earth - let's leave that job for someone better suited to do so without
human bias and judgemental hatered. I pray everyone on both sides of this issue
can learn to be respectful of one another and can learn to live together for the
sake of the world and not for our individual beliefs and personal causes,
whether they be religious or socially based ones. God bless America and God
bless everyone's right to live the American dream - gays, lesbians and yes,
even Mormons included!
Anonymous | 4:57 a.m. March 20, 2009
My daughter was thirteen when she was taken advantage of sexually by one of her
teachers at school . . . a female teacher.
She struggled with her sexual identity as a result of that experience. Although my daughter was brought up in an LDS home, her Mother and I divorced when my wife claimed that a young man we befriended in Church was someone she "knew in the pre-existence." My daughter then saw her Mother become involved with this young man and name her brother after him.
Sexual orientation is not an easy issue to deal with. As a Father, I support and love my daughter. She will be 'getting married' to another woman later this spring. I will be there at the wedding.
Can we love our brothers and sisters, despite their sexual orientation? Can we become more tolerant of those who are different? Can we see good in people who have a perspective that varies from our own?
She struggled with her sexual identity as a result of that experience. Although my daughter was brought up in an LDS home, her Mother and I divorced when my wife claimed that a young man we befriended in Church was someone she "knew in the pre-existence." My daughter then saw her Mother become involved with this young man and name her brother after him.
Sexual orientation is not an easy issue to deal with. As a Father, I support and love my daughter. She will be 'getting married' to another woman later this spring. I will be there at the wedding.
Can we love our brothers and sisters, despite their sexual orientation? Can we become more tolerant of those who are different? Can we see good in people who have a perspective that varies from our own?
Eugene | 5:42 a.m. March 20, 2009
The more light that is shed that the Church followed all rules and laws will
show that the other side is just out to get the Church with lies and inuendo.
It is not yet politically incorrect to attack and bash Mormons, despite all of the other churches that also helped passed this law. This makes Mormons an easy mark for persecution for their ideals and morals. Once bad-mouthing Mormons is as taboo as speaking ill of Catholics, Jews, Muslims, etc., then this country can truly say we are beyond religious bigotry.
The Church does not hate people that are gay, but also cannot condone the practice on biblical and moral grounds. Both sides have the American right to believe as they like, but no one should be persecuted on either side for expressing their vote with their own conscience.
It is not yet politically incorrect to attack and bash Mormons, despite all of the other churches that also helped passed this law. This makes Mormons an easy mark for persecution for their ideals and morals. Once bad-mouthing Mormons is as taboo as speaking ill of Catholics, Jews, Muslims, etc., then this country can truly say we are beyond religious bigotry.
The Church does not hate people that are gay, but also cannot condone the practice on biblical and moral grounds. Both sides have the American right to believe as they like, but no one should be persecuted on either side for expressing their vote with their own conscience.
Anonymous | 5:56 a.m. March 20, 2009
NEVER should a majority try to deny the rights of a minority....Mormons if
anyone should understand that. If it is proven that the LDS have broken laws
then they should pay the consequence.
John | 6:09 a.m. March 20, 2009
And why doesn't this guy pay for the investigation?
Flo Wineriter | 6:10 a.m. March 20, 2009
LDS spokesman Trotter refers to marriage as a 'Divine Institution', if this is true then the secular state should not be involoved in the definition,the regulation, nor the performance of this ritual.
Flo Wineriter
1648 St James Pl
SLC 84121
801-273-7144
Senator Buttars | 6:26 a.m. March 20, 2009
Another attach? Maybe senator buttars was right after all?
LDS | 6:33 a.m. March 20, 2009
I am so proud of the prophet for standing up for correct priniciples. It only
confirms my belief once again that the church is true.
lhs | 6:42 a.m. March 20, 2009
The State of California is broke, and they are waisting $ in this investigation
???? Get a life !!!!!
Mike | 6:48 a.m. March 20, 2009
What I find interesting is even if the church totally funded the failure of
proposition 8 and did start any organization to put down gay marriage or any
marriage that is not between a man and a woman is within its rights to do so.
RE RE RE Alton | 6:49 a.m. March 20, 2009
A little over a hundred years ago, some of you obviously would have said that
polygamy will NEVER end. I can hear you now - 'it was practiced by ancient
prophets and now it has been restored never to be taken away again'. Well,
you woulda been wrong.
And, a little over 30 years ago, some of you same people may have actually been saying yourselves that modern prophets (Brigham Young) have said that blacks will never hold the priesthood while on this earth. Well, you woulda been wrong.
Some of you might soon be left "whistling in the wind" because you will deny a living prophet and continuing revelation. God can say whatever He wants, period. If He chooses to allow gay people the right to marry for whatever His reason might be, are you going to deny your testimony of a 'living' prophet. It is NOT as trivial as it might sound, because that exact thing has happened before with the issues mentioned above.
Maybe God will reveal through His prophet that gays are allowed to marry for time only, or that, in this temporal world, sometimes female spirits are born in male bodies (explain hermaphroditism otherwise). Just sayin'...
And, a little over 30 years ago, some of you same people may have actually been saying yourselves that modern prophets (Brigham Young) have said that blacks will never hold the priesthood while on this earth. Well, you woulda been wrong.
Some of you might soon be left "whistling in the wind" because you will deny a living prophet and continuing revelation. God can say whatever He wants, period. If He chooses to allow gay people the right to marry for whatever His reason might be, are you going to deny your testimony of a 'living' prophet. It is NOT as trivial as it might sound, because that exact thing has happened before with the issues mentioned above.
Maybe God will reveal through His prophet that gays are allowed to marry for time only, or that, in this temporal world, sometimes female spirits are born in male bodies (explain hermaphroditism otherwise). Just sayin'...
Karger's Complaint | 7:00 a.m. March 20, 2009
I haven't read Karger's most recent complaint, but if it's
anything like his initial complaint I doubt it will carry much weight with the
commission. His first complaint read like a high school civics class assignment
completed in the last moments before it was due. It was rife with typos and
employed an overdone sensationalist tone.
In fact, calling it a complaint uses that term quite loosely. It was devoted almost entirely to posing hypothetical ways in which the LDS Church could have funneled money to the "Yes on Prop 8" campaign rather than making actual allegations of what the Church did.
The funniest part was when he stated that the President of the LDS Church is "David S. Monson." If this guy is the best Prop 8's opponents can throw out there then I like the LDS Church's chances.
In fact, calling it a complaint uses that term quite loosely. It was devoted almost entirely to posing hypothetical ways in which the LDS Church could have funneled money to the "Yes on Prop 8" campaign rather than making actual allegations of what the Church did.
The funniest part was when he stated that the President of the LDS Church is "David S. Monson." If this guy is the best Prop 8's opponents can throw out there then I like the LDS Church's chances.
RE:Barney | 7:02 a.m. March 20, 2009
Clear and firm doens't mean they're telling the truth! It just means
they're being clear and firm.
Sunlight | 7:10 a.m. March 20, 2009
The Deseret News article left out many facts included in other newspapers
articles -- namely, that the complaint contained copies of like 10 memos from
LDS leadership showing they organized the anti-gay marriage amendment in Hawaii
and explicitly soughts ways to conceal its identity and the identity of the
moneygivers. I realized that's not relevant to the particular allegations,
but the memos are very disturbing, and their authenticity has not been disputed
by the church. Listen, I have no problem with the Mormon church involving
itself in politics -- but if it wants to be a political arm, it can't be
tax exempt. Gay rights donations are not tax exempt; yet donations to the
Mormon church are. Mormons are not entitled to special rights when they enter
the political area, and politicking is not a church activity for purposes of all
the legal exemptions given to churches for church activities (e.g., worship,
praise, communion). This backlash is entirely appropriate in the political
realm. If you don't like politics, don't funnel millions to a
political campaign! But having done do, don't expect the targets of your
campaign to be silent just because you want them to.
RE; Anonymous | 7:11 a.m. March 20, 2009
"NEVER should a majority try to deny the rights of a minority...."
Does that mean that the minority have the right to deny the rights of the majority? Our country was founded on religeous freedom. It was based on a firm belief in God. Even though the majority of Americans believe in God we are seeing his name, his commandments, his standards for happiness slowly being taken away from our great country.
It is my personal belief that we are a great country because we were founded in a strong belief in God and his commandments. When we turn from Him, we will no longer be great.
Looking at History you will see that all great nations, Greeks, Romans, Jews, Babylonians, when they have fallen into moral decay, i.e. fornication and homosexuality, they have been destroyed.
If we want our country to remain a great nation we should all take a close look at history and what happens when people forget the God who created them and stop living his commandments.
Does that mean that the minority have the right to deny the rights of the majority? Our country was founded on religeous freedom. It was based on a firm belief in God. Even though the majority of Americans believe in God we are seeing his name, his commandments, his standards for happiness slowly being taken away from our great country.
It is my personal belief that we are a great country because we were founded in a strong belief in God and his commandments. When we turn from Him, we will no longer be great.
Looking at History you will see that all great nations, Greeks, Romans, Jews, Babylonians, when they have fallen into moral decay, i.e. fornication and homosexuality, they have been destroyed.
If we want our country to remain a great nation we should all take a close look at history and what happens when people forget the God who created them and stop living his commandments.
George Washington | 7:13 a.m. March 20, 2009
Churches and morality have long had a constitutionally recognized role in
informing political debate and the development of law, and rightfully so. The
words of founding father George Washington in his Farewell Address to the Nation
in 1796 are illustrative:
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and cherish them."
Founding father John Adams also said this: "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion...Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and cherish them."
Founding father John Adams also said this: "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion...Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
Re: Seth | 7:25 a.m. March 20, 2009
"Why do religions continue to feel like it's their right to get
involved in people's personal lives?"
How bout aome religions are trying to preserve what they believe in. Why are you insisting on having particular religions have to accept the gay way of life?
We've seen it time and time again. Christian-based dating services sued into providing one that caters to homosexuals. The Boy Scouts, almost being forced (and being persecuted because they haven't) to allow gay me to be their leaders (can you imagine allowing a straight man be allowed to take a dozen 12 - 18 young women on a week campout in the mountains? No, doesn't mean something bad will happen, but isn't it much more likely that something might happen than if a straight woman had taken them camping?) No doubt, once gay "marriage" becomes legal, then those organizations who don't support it will lose their tax exempt status and will be persecuted for violating "civil rights".
Stop being a hypocrite, Seth. You're getting involved in my personal life when you're force me and my neihbors to have their boys babysat by gay scout leaders.
How bout aome religions are trying to preserve what they believe in. Why are you insisting on having particular religions have to accept the gay way of life?
We've seen it time and time again. Christian-based dating services sued into providing one that caters to homosexuals. The Boy Scouts, almost being forced (and being persecuted because they haven't) to allow gay me to be their leaders (can you imagine allowing a straight man be allowed to take a dozen 12 - 18 young women on a week campout in the mountains? No, doesn't mean something bad will happen, but isn't it much more likely that something might happen than if a straight woman had taken them camping?) No doubt, once gay "marriage" becomes legal, then those organizations who don't support it will lose their tax exempt status and will be persecuted for violating "civil rights".
Stop being a hypocrite, Seth. You're getting involved in my personal life when you're force me and my neihbors to have their boys babysat by gay scout leaders.
re: re re re Alton | 7:31 a.m. March 20, 2009
Nope and nope. There are two gaping fallacies in your argument.
First the two issues you have cited (who can bear the priesthood and polygamous marriage) are things that the Lord has a pattern of changing from time to time as He sees needful. There are times in the Bible where the Lord commands men to take multiple wives and times where he commands them to take only one. Furthermore, there were times when only a tiny fraction of the Lord's faithful(the Levites for example) were given the priesthood and times (like now) when all worthy males hold the priesthood.
Second, it was never a doctrine of the Church that Black males would not receive the priesthood or that Polygamy would never cease. A Church leader may have opined as much, but that does not make his opinion Church doctrine. It is only doctrine when the First Presidency issues a declaration.
The statement that homosexual marriage is contrary to the plan of God, by contrast, is church doctrine. This is something that will not change because, unlike your two examples, such a practice is directly contrary to God's plan for His children.
First the two issues you have cited (who can bear the priesthood and polygamous marriage) are things that the Lord has a pattern of changing from time to time as He sees needful. There are times in the Bible where the Lord commands men to take multiple wives and times where he commands them to take only one. Furthermore, there were times when only a tiny fraction of the Lord's faithful(the Levites for example) were given the priesthood and times (like now) when all worthy males hold the priesthood.
Second, it was never a doctrine of the Church that Black males would not receive the priesthood or that Polygamy would never cease. A Church leader may have opined as much, but that does not make his opinion Church doctrine. It is only doctrine when the First Presidency issues a declaration.
The statement that homosexual marriage is contrary to the plan of God, by contrast, is church doctrine. This is something that will not change because, unlike your two examples, such a practice is directly contrary to God's plan for His children.
TW | 7:35 a.m. March 20, 2009
To Anonymous @ 5:56 a.m
"NEVER should a majority try to deny the rights of a minority....Mormons if anyone should understand that."
Last I checked, the Mormons were a minority, probably smaller than the homosexual community. NAMBLA certainly feels that they have a "right" to little boys. Does not the majority have an obligation to deny that? Does an unborn child have any rights? These are contentious and obviously difficult decisions that people face. The No on 8 campaign put in more money than the Yes side and countered the arguments put forth, and still lost. The people of the state heard the arguments and decided against it. A majority has every right to evaluate the facts and choose what is best.
"If it is proven that the LDS have broken laws then they should pay the consequence."
Indeed, but has any evidence been produced to support such a claim? If not, then clearly this is meant solely as a tactic of intimidation and harassment.
"NEVER should a majority try to deny the rights of a minority....Mormons if anyone should understand that."
Last I checked, the Mormons were a minority, probably smaller than the homosexual community. NAMBLA certainly feels that they have a "right" to little boys. Does not the majority have an obligation to deny that? Does an unborn child have any rights? These are contentious and obviously difficult decisions that people face. The No on 8 campaign put in more money than the Yes side and countered the arguments put forth, and still lost. The people of the state heard the arguments and decided against it. A majority has every right to evaluate the facts and choose what is best.
"If it is proven that the LDS have broken laws then they should pay the consequence."
Indeed, but has any evidence been produced to support such a claim? If not, then clearly this is meant solely as a tactic of intimidation and harassment.
Anonymous | 7:52 a.m. March 20, 2009
"It's obvious Mormons are involved in NOM which is their right but the
Church, which has no reason to deny involvement since it's legal, does so
because it wasn't involved. Whey bother denying it when its legal to
do?"
I know there is no law, but what Karger is trying to do is get the Church's tax exempt status canceled, because if the Church puts a substantial amount of money into advocating for a political cause then according to Section 501(c)(3) of US Code Title 26, the Church would have their tax exempt status revoked. But these charges won't stand because the Church has been upright in its dealings.
I know there is no law, but what Karger is trying to do is get the Church's tax exempt status canceled, because if the Church puts a substantial amount of money into advocating for a political cause then according to Section 501(c)(3) of US Code Title 26, the Church would have their tax exempt status revoked. But these charges won't stand because the Church has been upright in its dealings.
I agree with sunlight | 7:54 a.m. March 20, 2009
I agree with sunlight, this article left out facts that we all need to know. Go
elsewhere and find the same story, you'll get the facts you need to make
informed opinions. The actions of (my) the church are suspicious and hopefully
will be fully uncovered. It is NOT that they cannot do this kind of lobbying,
they can, but if they do so they likely have run afoul of their tax exempt
status. AND, in my opinion they are out of bounds since a church really should
stick to what it does best--caring, healing, loving, ministering. Instead what
they did was to influence the legislative/electoral/public process. They should
have made no comments only to encourage their members to "get
involved". The way they did this thing is going cause them more harm than
they ever imagined...and they deserve it in my opinion.
Anonymous | 7:56 a.m. March 20, 2009
To Anonymous 4:57, You are making the case for the argument that gays are NOT
born gay.
75% of gays ADMIT they were molested by someone of the say sex as a child. The others are probably lying. That fact is, there has NEVER been any study done that concluded that gays are born that way. I have PERSONALLY known several individuals who were "recruited" into the gay lifestyle. These were lonely people who were intentionally groomed and pulled in. They were not born that way and were never interested until they were recruited.
This is a developmental disorder and not genetic. Accepting this behavior and sayings it's okay is just like accepting an alcoholic in his/her self-destruction. That's not loving them. It's enabling them.
75% of gays ADMIT they were molested by someone of the say sex as a child. The others are probably lying. That fact is, there has NEVER been any study done that concluded that gays are born that way. I have PERSONALLY known several individuals who were "recruited" into the gay lifestyle. These were lonely people who were intentionally groomed and pulled in. They were not born that way and were never interested until they were recruited.
This is a developmental disorder and not genetic. Accepting this behavior and sayings it's okay is just like accepting an alcoholic in his/her self-destruction. That's not loving them. It's enabling them.
Grandma S | 7:57 a.m. March 20, 2009
I have never understood the desire for 'gays' to be married.
Marriage is for the creation of families. Until two people of the same gender can produce their own biological baby, marriage is not something they are entitled to.
Anonymous above, I say "amen" to your comment.
Marriage is for the creation of families. Until two people of the same gender can produce their own biological baby, marriage is not something they are entitled to.
Anonymous above, I say "amen" to your comment.
@ Mormon Money | 8:12 a.m. March 20, 2009
"But if they played a clandestine role in establishing the National
Organization for Marriage, then they should be prosecuted."
Ok, so Gay's & Lesbians should be allowed to marry freely-even though it goes against the majority vote-while those who support traditional marriage should be PROSECUTED???
Have I missed something? Has the National Organization for Marriage done something majorly illegal? Is it a bad organization that really runs drugs or launders money?? What is wrong with being affiliated with a group that supports traditional marriage????
Ok, so Gay's & Lesbians should be allowed to marry freely-even though it goes against the majority vote-while those who support traditional marriage should be PROSECUTED???
Have I missed something? Has the National Organization for Marriage done something majorly illegal? Is it a bad organization that really runs drugs or launders money?? What is wrong with being affiliated with a group that supports traditional marriage????
Hey Grandma! | 8:13 a.m. March 20, 2009
Gee Grandma, I never understood the desire for black people to drink from the
same water fountain, or to sit anywhere they want on the bus. I mean, their
fountain and the back of the bus is just fine!
As to your completely insane argument about procreation, I'm sure the childless heterosexual couple down the street feels completely validated by your rather limited definition of "normal."
As to your completely insane argument about procreation, I'm sure the childless heterosexual couple down the street feels completely validated by your rather limited definition of "normal."
Marriage | 8:15 a.m. March 20, 2009
Anyone in California can get married, that includes people that are gay. They
just have to marry someone of the opposite sex. The law does not discriminate
against anyone.
McGurkus | 8:18 a.m. March 20, 2009
No society in the entire history of this world that promoted homosexual activity
has survived. Each and every one was destroyed and no longer exists.
at it again | 8:21 a.m. March 20, 2009
Gays are at it again. Can't stand on facts, or votes- just false
accusations.
Californians Against Hate?? | 8:22 a.m. March 20, 2009
Talk about the most ironic name for an organization ever!
So, let me get this straight (pardon the pun), You hate us for hating you, even though you're supposedly against hatred, and even though we don't even hate you to begin with?
You want to know what hate is, my alternative lifestyle loving friends? Plotting a map of the locations of all LDS members who donated in support of Prop 8, and posting it to the internet for people to "use" as they see fit. That's hate.
So, let me get this straight (pardon the pun), You hate us for hating you, even though you're supposedly against hatred, and even though we don't even hate you to begin with?
You want to know what hate is, my alternative lifestyle loving friends? Plotting a map of the locations of all LDS members who donated in support of Prop 8, and posting it to the internet for people to "use" as they see fit. That's hate.
Phoebe | 8:25 a.m. March 20, 2009
This whole debate reminds me of how the LDS Church treated Blacks before the big
revelation that (wow) they really were worthy of the priesthood. In thirty
years, your kids just won't understand how the LDS Church could have been
so deeply wrong on the gay issue. But maybe we'll have to wait for another
big revelation about this one, too.
Yes, we can love... | 8:29 a.m. March 20, 2009
"Can we love our brothers and sisters, despite their sexual orientation?
Can we become more tolerant of those who are different? Can we see good in
people who have a perspective that varies from our own?"
Of course! We must love those who don't make the right choices. Nobody is perfect! None of us have the right to judge another human being! We do have the responsibility to judge righteously based on right and wrong principles, but not to condemn. To do so is as bad as the choices of the accused...
However, we must never condone or accept the behavior. That is where our judgement must lie. If someone whom we unconditionally love makes a wrong choice we must stand firm in what's right. The Prodigal Son is an excellent example. As you remember, the father only took in the son after he had repented of his sins, or was in the process of doing so. This is not to say the father never stopped loving his son, but he knew the consequences of sin and could not condone or accept what he did. You are right to love your daughter, but not her behavior.
Of course! We must love those who don't make the right choices. Nobody is perfect! None of us have the right to judge another human being! We do have the responsibility to judge righteously based on right and wrong principles, but not to condemn. To do so is as bad as the choices of the accused...
However, we must never condone or accept the behavior. That is where our judgement must lie. If someone whom we unconditionally love makes a wrong choice we must stand firm in what's right. The Prodigal Son is an excellent example. As you remember, the father only took in the son after he had repented of his sins, or was in the process of doing so. This is not to say the father never stopped loving his son, but he knew the consequences of sin and could not condone or accept what he did. You are right to love your daughter, but not her behavior.
LDS | 8:29 a.m. March 20, 2009
Gays should stay in the closet; and the church should stay out of politics.
Oops | 8:29 a.m. March 20, 2009
Psssst!Hey leaders! Keep your incriminating letters hidden. Now we're
busted!
Michael
Michael
interesting... | 8:29 a.m. March 20, 2009
"Looking at History you will see that all great nations, Greeks, Romans,
Jews, Babylonians, when they have fallen into moral decay, i.e. fornication and
homosexuality, they have been destroyed."
Brigham Young said on numerous occasions that Rome fell BECAUSE OF MONOGAMY!
Which is it?
Brigham Young said on numerous occasions that Rome fell BECAUSE OF MONOGAMY!
Which is it?
from the words of Joseph Smith | 8:31 a.m. March 20, 2009
Sunday's Relief Society Lesson was from the Joseph Smith manual, lesson
#29, "Living with others in Peace and Harmony." As I read the lesson
to choose appropriate hymns to sing, I was struck by one of the last quotes in
the lesson from Joseph Smith:
"We will...cultivate peace and friendship with all, mind our own business, and come off with flying colors, respected, because, in respecting others, we respect ourselves."
Does anyone else think that the church has strayed from this idea by being involved in California politics? I do, and since they are showing disrespect to others, they have disrespected themselves. This article shows the effects of such.
And, Grandma S and anonymous at 7:56, just for the record, I know many gay Mormons, and all of them, after years of struggling and hating themselves, would definitely say that they were born this way. Why would they choose the guilt and agony that they live with every day? It is not a choice.
Lastly, one of the best families I know is headed by 2 men. Don't judge what is right or wrong for society until you get to know them.
~Sarah
"We will...cultivate peace and friendship with all, mind our own business, and come off with flying colors, respected, because, in respecting others, we respect ourselves."
Does anyone else think that the church has strayed from this idea by being involved in California politics? I do, and since they are showing disrespect to others, they have disrespected themselves. This article shows the effects of such.
And, Grandma S and anonymous at 7:56, just for the record, I know many gay Mormons, and all of them, after years of struggling and hating themselves, would definitely say that they were born this way. Why would they choose the guilt and agony that they live with every day? It is not a choice.
Lastly, one of the best families I know is headed by 2 men. Don't judge what is right or wrong for society until you get to know them.
~Sarah
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