No modern scholar cites homosexuality as one of the causes of the Empire's fall.
Homosexuality was not something that was "embraced" by the Empire when it fell,
as you suggest. In fact, the first law against homosexuality in the Roman Empire
was passed by the Emperors Constantius and Chlorus, who ruled jointly in the 4th
century AD, in the year 342. Christianity spread throughout the
Roman Empire and subsequent emperors began to crack down on homosexuals in
general. In 390 AD homosexuality was made illegal, with the penalty for engaging
in such acts being burned alive in a public execution.Later emperors
would use gays as a convenient scapegoat for problems. Emperor Justinian blamed
homosexuals for problems ranging from famines to earthquakes and gays have been
used as scapegoats for all of societies ills ever since.
NOBODY is saying homosexuality brough down the roman empire,just
that it was one the things they embraced,and that it's moral decay
was symptom that the empire was falling,when a people and expecially
it's leaders are no longer honest, and moral, humble, a fall surely
follows, because the decisions and actions that come from that enviroment will
bring it down.
You are correct in stating that there is a difference between the Republic and
the Empire.May historians have postulated on the causes of the fall
of the Roman Empire. These causations include economic decline, increased taxes,
Germanic invasions, decline in agricultural output, the rise of Islam and the
list goes on. Each of these events could be individually overcome, but in
conjunction they ultimately proved destructive.The idea that
homosexuality brought down the Roman Empire was put forth in the late 1700's.
This idea/myth has persisted though being discredited.
Referring back to the original posting of "@Oh My", 3.20 p.m., Feb. 23rd, that
poster seemed to confuse the Republic with the Empire, a basic error that does
not suggest great familiarity with the subject.Once you had Augustus
you had an Empire, not a Republic. It is the Roman Empire, as mentioned in the
above post 10.09 a.m.) whose decline and fall is being discussed.Tiberius, as a Roman Emperor, was too late to predict the fall of the
Republic. The original post (Oh My, 9.20 a.m.) talked of the fall of "Rome"
(applicable to the Roman Empire) not the Roman Republic.
I don't read the Advocate. I DO read scholarly-reviewed text books and other
historical writings.There are several factors that lead to the fall
of the Roman Republic - homosexuality is NOT one of them.Here is
what is accepted as the reasons for the fall of the Roman Republic:Internal turmoil provoked in 133 BC by economic stagnation in the city of
Rome, slave revolts without and dissension in the military precipitated a period
of unrelenting political upheaval known as the Roman Revolution, the Late Roman
Republic, or the Fall of the Republic. In essence, the republic system of
government underwent a painful and violent transition from irresponsible
oligarchy to a more accountable autocratic form of government. It is possible
to discern a pattern in the devolution of legal, constitutional authority in the
Republic and to identify FOUR steps to the collapse of Republican authority:1. THE RISE OF POLULAR TRIBUNES2. THE RISE OF PRIVATE ARMIES 3. THE FIRST TRIUMVIRATE4. CAESARS DICTATORSHIP
The Hon Sen Buttars used his free speech to make comments. The Utah Legislature
are using THEIRS. And this is where the Mormons are getting their collective
magic undies in a bunch.And every comment by Mr Buttars re: gays was
either coming from a place of ignorance (not knowing), bigotry (not caring), or
was incorrect (not applying knowledge). He is free to say what he wants, and get
called out for it. But you Cons hide behind "free speech" to deflect. Just like
you use "intimidation" to deflect when boycots are called against Utah and
Mormons who heavily donated for prop 8.After years of Religious
Right boycotting companies for advertising or supporting gay events or offering
domestic partner benefits suddenly when that tack is turned your way it's
intimidating.-both ways cupcakes
Tiberius' prediction came true. The first Roman Emperor, Augustus,
reigned for 41 years. Tiberius, already in his late fifties when Augustus died,
ruled for 26 years.The emperor who succeeded Tiberius (Caligula) was
a depraved individual who included among his flaws the effeminate vice.He reigned four years before being assassinated. Succeeding
imperial reigns were often short and brutish by comparison with the tenures of
Augustus and Tiberius. In 69 AD there were four emperors; 30 reigns lasted just
a year or two, and many others little longer . Roman citizenship ceased to be
the exclusive privilege of Rome becoming the right of all within the Empire.Emperors ceased to be exclusively Roman in 98 BC; only the institution
of the Empire continued. The army became largely non-Roman. Claudius extended
the Empire with the conquest of Britain, or part of it at least. The empire was twice divided and, to hold the Empire together, Constantine
even appeared to renounce Sun- worship in favor of his own strange version of
Christianity.The stability, extent and duration of the Roman Empire
is often exaggerated. Rome's armies of German mercenaries even proclaiming their
Conservatives | 8:28 a.m. Yes, I'm glad you realise even people who
you judge as, "uninformed, bigoted, and incorrect", have a right to voice their
opinion.And I respect your right to tell Sen Buttars that he is full
of it. You go for it.But the legislature should NOT be taking
retribution against it's members for exercising their Free Speach rights. And what does ANY of this have to do with anyone's undies?
Cons everywhere love to toss out "free speech" or use some sort of "I'm non-PC"
as a mask for their uninformed, bigoted, incorrect statements when they get
called out on them. Yes you and Mr Buttars have the right to say what you want.
I have the SAME right to tell you you are full of it. It is at that point you
giants of critical thought run crying to mommy and put out the "free speech"
card.-it works both ways cupcakes... and what's with those magic
Thank you Ms. Storni for a well done letter. Your assessment is absolutely
correct. In time it will be easy to recognize that Buttars, Ruzyka and their
ilk are on the wrong side of history. Similar changes in social conditions have
had similar opposition in the past. It is so tiresome listening to
those arguments that contradict known science, facts and psychological studies.
And to stretch logic to suggest that choosing to love someone of the same gender
is the greatest threat to America is simply ludicrous. But then,
fear, bigotry and ignorance are not limited by knowledge and logic.
we have all been in situations wher we were not accepted for ridiculous reasons.
im surprised we have not taken those experiences as a chance to grow and not
make the same mistake towards others. no one is asking you to be homosexual.
they are asking that you let them live peacefully with the same rights
heterosexuals have. stop generalizing, stop judging and open your mind to the
solution. i say this on both ends of the argument. there are a lot of people who
are bored and unhappy who get on these forums to share their mindless garble of
unacceptance, we should not judge all lds people based on a few ignorant ones.
in other words stop fighting fire with fire. oh and please @@oh my! 3:22 lets
not use the bible for a accurate reference on history. thats an argument for a
different forum. but if you are going to follow the bible then follow everything
dont pick and choose out of convenience.
1. Being gay is not a crime2. All Americans deserve equal protection under
the law.It doesn't matter what you believe, or what your church
teaches, about homosexuality. No one is forcing you to change your beliefs or
to endorse or support it. All they are asking is to have the same
rights you and I have. The right to visit a loved one in the hospital. The
right to live and work without fear of being evicted or fired because of who you
are. Rights that would also be extended to non-homosexuals in similar
circumstances.This has nothing to do with religious beliefs. It's
about Utah state law. And since when did one have anything to do with the
What a convenient rewrite of history. Have you ever even read the bible or the
history of Rome, or are you just recycling an opinion from The Advocate? Romans 1:26,27 (Apistle of Paul to the Romans) For this cause God gave
(abandoned) them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the
natural use into that which is against nature.And likewise also the men,
leaving the natural use of the women, burned in their lust one toward another;
men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that
recompence of their error which was meet.What is Sodomy? Lot had men
come to visit him in Gommorah. The men of the city called out to Lot to send
them out that they might "know" them. Lot offered up his two daughters who had
not know a man and the men of the city rejected the offer. Genesis 19:5.
The gay community has revealed themselves to be the true bigots and hypocrites.
The definition of bigot is:Bigot (n). One who is strongly partial to one's
own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
True Mormons, and other religious groups, do not fit this definition
of bigot because they are not intolerant of homosexual people, only the
homosexual act. Gay supporters appear to be unable to separate a person from
their beliefs. While Chris Buttars likened some members of the homosexual agenda
to terrorists, he did not stoop to the broad personal attacks posted by gay
backers in this very Readers Forum. Mormons have as a basic
principal of their faith: We claim the privilege of worshiping the Almighty God
according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same
privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may. Not much bigotry
there.This has now become an issue because the gay community is no
longer content to simply live with their own choices. No, the gay agenda is to
FORCE everyone else to CHANGE and endorse and support what others believe/know
to be wrong.
Mormons bring on their trouble themselves.
What a load of the same stinking refrain of "Mormons divide themselves from
others" nonsense. Come live in the Bible Belt South and then get back to this
site. Your comments are laughable.
I'm glad that someone is speaking out against homosexuality and the deleterious
effects it is having on society. I get pretty sick of hearing my lesbian
coworker talk about her sexuality all of the time. I had to ask her if we could
talk about something else today. She seems to think if she talks to me about it
all the time, then I'll get desensitized to homosexuality and accept it. I am
sick of it and had to talk to my boss about it. He agreed that it was
inappropriate for her to talk gay marriage and her personal issues at work.
You just proved my point. Thanks for showing what you really are- religious PC
Bigot. Don't worry, I am taking my own advice. Why bother trying to tell you
the truth: I am going to "Forget about it."
In Utah the biggest intolerance issue is the neighborhood life where children
are separated due to religion. I don't know how many times I have heard of
families that end up selling their home in an effort to move to a neighborhood
were their children can find playmates. I have lived in five countries and
never observed social division among children caused by religion until I came to
Utah. Nobody appear to be interested to deal with this. Growing up in this
divisive society must have some consequence, perhaps it means attacking the gay
as it is now out of fashion to attack the black population.
So true - how quickly I have forgotten! Please enlighten me about the widespread
vandalism, violent protests, terrorist threats, demands for donation lists to
ruin the professional and personal lives of private individuals, etc., etc.,
that has been committed by supporters of Prop 8. My guess is you'll have
examples of a few isolated incidents that Prop 8 supporters, by and large,
condemn as loudly as you. There's not even a reasonable comparison between the
civil debate Prop 8 supporters engaged in and the rabid violent reaction from
those who lost the debate. If you can't win a debate, scream loudly and carry a
"Gays do not listen to anyone but themselves."Now THAT's a profound
stereotype.LOL!Are you sure you're not talking about
I wish you would follow your own advice and truly study history to become
informed.If you study the history of the Roman Republic, you will
find that it fell AFTER the Emperors outlawed homosexuality and made
Christianity the official religion of the Republic. Also, to best
understand the meaning and intent of the writings that became the Bible, you
should read the early texts. According to biblical scholars the "Sin of Sodom"
was being unwelcoming and not offering shelter to travelers (also viewed as
being 'full of pride'). These were considered grave sins at the time the book of
Genesis was written since many people lived a nomadic life. Scholars, and the
people at that time would have readily understood the message being
Gays do not listen to anyone but themselves and only for themselves. As usual,
the cries from the left is "If I don't get my way, I will call you a terrible
name that will get you into trouble, even if what I say is a lie." Truth is not
a Gay strong point; never has been or ever wlll be. So for all of you thinking
you can argue with narrow minded hate filled PC people: as they say in New York
City- "Forget about it!"
"When fascism comes to America, it will be a cross wrapped in the flag." -
Sinclair Lewis, 1935Throw away the cross symbol (Mormons don't have
a cross) and presto! Instant fascist ideology.Google the 12 warning
signs of fascism, and see for yourself.
to 2:09 It's NOT nonsense! Go read Mountain Meadows Massacre on YOU tube. Then
com back and comment.
Well you're mostly right, umm correct..."It is time for it to listen
to the silent majority and stop being frightened into submission by" Equality
Utah, Utah Pride Center, etc, etc, etc...
If ever there was a need to preach, teach and seek to enforce sexual control to
the point of virginity until married and monogamy there after, it is now.We already teach against drugs, needle and other wise. Safe sex is not
so safe when you ask the youngsters what it is. Did you know that oral and anal
sex does not need a condom to be safe? It is, just ask your local average
sexually active teen.Because of the effective decriminalizing of
sodomy, and the understanding for the need to do sexually whatever with
whatever, all are at risk of HIV/AIDS.More power to the clear
speaking Mr. Buttars!
And how quickly they forget...The hate mongering, name calling,
boycots and protests by those supporting Prop 8 is nothing short of astouding.
All of these actions were taken by those supporting Prop 8,
including picketing, prayer meetings, marches, etc. Why do you villanize those
that make their voices heard in the same manner as those that supported Prop 8?
Is it just because they have an opposing view? So, these actions are ok only IF
they are YOUR view? That is some twisted logic. I guess you are just
"believing your own spin."
I find it ironic that there are those who whine about Butters hurting Utahs
image. It is not as if California or other states (or gay activists), had
a great image amongst everyone either. (I.E. Butters is no worse than Al
Sharpton - but I am smart enough to know he is not the only person in New York)
If a person hits me with a bigoted stereotype - it is an example of their
problems, not mine.
Wow, you have to equate Mormon's with Nazi's to prove a point? Are you serious,
or desperate? That is nonsense.
Sure, Buttars has a right to say whatever he wants.However, where
and when is definitely an issue. As are the consequences meant to follow.In a Sunday School class, he may talk about Homosexuality in the way
that he did. However, in a documentary which he agreed with our government not
to comment to, or on the senate floor? Nope.Furthermore, people act
as if you should be able to say whatever you want without any consequences, such
as losing leadership positions. Wrong again. Buttars has a right to the people
that he's representing to carry himself much better than he has. Wasting our
time on racist comments, Christmas names, and homosexual talk is not
representing us the voters who are suffering with this economy.
Sorry, Utah Neocons.But wholesale bigotry is popular only in Utah, Idaho
The hate mongering, name calling, boycots and protests by the gay community is
nothing short of astouding, especially when their message has been one of love
and equal respect. Clearly their message is the same as their lifestyle - a big
lie, that they have bought into. Nothing like believing your own spin.You have the same rights as everyone else: enter into marriage with someone of
the oppostie gender, and there are only two. Just because that does not
trip-your-trigger does not give you special rights to copulate with whatever or
whoever turns you on.
Take a look at Bash Back! and other groups like them. Their actions are
terroristic and not condoned even in the gay community.
1. There is no controversy over the word "say".2. Freedom of
Speech is a First Amendment Right.
This isn't a Mormon/non-Mormon issue. This is one man's opinion, which the last
time I looked, he has the right to have. If we are going to punish everyone who
says something that offends the "thin-skinned" crowd, then we better get
started. Grow up and deal with it. And while you are at it, if you insist on
making this a Mormon issue, you might want to also include the Catholics,
Baptists, American Episcopalians and Methodists, Focus on the Family, George
Bush, Karl Rove, and the annointed one-President Obama.
It only sounds like a lot of hate to you and others who believe there are only 2
options - love and embrace, or hate. Believe it or not, it is possible to love
people, and want rights and justice for them, and to associate respectfully and
civilly with them, and still disapprove of their actions and disagree in the
debate over cultural legislation. That's just never good enough for some
people, who require total love and happy acceptance of all conduct before
allowing someone to come out of the hate corner that radicals paint them
into.So, do all Mormons persecute others, and wish the priesthood
was still withheld from blacks? Are all Mormons hypocritical, intolerant, and
unwilling to give equal and fair treatment to others, and filled with hate? Or,
do the vast majority of them respectfully disagree with you on gay-rights
issues, but you can't allow for any reason other than they're all filled with
hate? For an honest answer, get off the comment board and associate
with real people - You'll be surprised at the friendliness you receive if you're
not the one filled with a lot of hate.
Buttars has the right to say whatever he wants, but gays do NOT have the right
to marry whomever they want?How does that make any sense at all?
We could say the same thing about Nazis. They weren't attacking a group of Jews,
gays, and other "misfits", they were simply defending their beliefs in the
Reich, the Pure Race of Ubermensch, and moral values!Duh
Judging by the absurd comments above, one would have to assume that not only are
Mormons "a peculiar people" (as Gordon B. Hinckley once called them) but also an
ignorant people.Are they ALL this stupid?
I don't see any hateful comments from Mormons here. They are defending their
beliefs, not attacking a group of people. The attacks are coming from the gay
Mormons did not "feel" they were persecuted:Their property was
burned and stolen. Their women were raped. They were killed and driven from
their homes.You do not suffer such deprivations, but take advantage
of our hospitality and abuse it with further persecutions.
Funny..How mormons felt they were persecuted at one time and now
they persecute others..Its amazing how people can feel so bad about
not being accepted in the past and now does the same thing to others.Remember how blacks couldnt hold the priesthood awhile back ago..Its sad how mormons are so hypocritical.. I left the LDS because of all its
hypcrite members.. You want to say you are tolerant but you are
not.. You want to say you love everyone but you cant.You say you want
equality and fair treatment but you dont give that to others either.Look as the anti gay comments from love filled mormons on here.. sounds like a
lot of hate.
Why don't the freakiest of the freaky bigots of Utah pack up their little
handcarts and move out to the West Desert where they can keep their peculiar
life philosophy to themselves, pay no taxes, have as many wives they want ...
I agree with the letter writer; we need to FORCE bigots to reform. We need to see to it ALL people have the same rights, that NO person of ANY
minority group is offended ever!!! It only makes sense. Those who
enjoy the privileges and perks of living as the general population/majority
should RESTRICT THEMSELVES for saying or doing anything that could be construed
as a critique or ridicule of anyone else. These persons in the
MAINSTREAM who express such unreasonable expectations of PERSONS especially
those not of like mind are ABOMINATIONS to the world. They deserve of all
the hurtful treatment the MINORITIES can place upon them! Minorities who, by
their very being, are more enlightened than the general population.If you buy this I have a tropical island in the Great Lakes to show you.
To all you bigots out there, how are you any different than the Westboro Baptist
Church? How is Chris Buttars different than Fred Phelps?
I will not leave. You leave. Move to Iran if you want your country run by a
religious cult. This is the USA and we are suppose to be about freedom. A word
you reich winger love to spout but have no understanding of.
I firmly believe Buttars has the right to say whatever he pleases. And I have
the right to vote for him or not. Based solely upon his comments, I would not be
comfortable voting for him. It's that simple.Had he stated his
position more respectfully and thoughtfully (as behooves any politician), that
would be one thing, but he is getting dangerously close to Westboro Baptist
Church territory here.I strongly disagree with his opinions (at
least on this issue), and his manner of expressing them only makes matters
"I believe California and Massachusetts would welcome you"Like
Massachusetts welcomed Mitt Romney and his tolerance of gay people?LOL!
Why is it that gay supporters (no pun intended) believe that they are
"enlightened and progressive" and that those who disagree with their agenda are
"backward, bigoted, false, and stereotypical...."? With these statements they
prove that they could not be further from the truth. Only the
self-delusional can ignore history and still claim to be informed. Tiberius
Caesar predicted Rome's downfall if the growing practices of "men's attraction
to boys and men" was not curtailed. And then there was Sodom and Gomorrah. Like the deaf who attempt to convince those who can hear that there is
no sound, only the ignorant can claim to be enlightened when they ignore the
real truth that overarches this mortal world. To pronounce that you
were a "Mormon youth" as if it were your credentials, only proves at one time
you were taught to hear, but are now deaf and want others to believe that
hearing is "old school". This is not only bigotry but true
hypocrisy. All beings deserve respect but not their choices, acts or lies.
...the fact of the matter is that people have a right to agree or disagree, not
rocket science. If people don't like it here in Utah, then leave, move to
California or Massachusetts. This a conservative state and honestly looking at
the dreaded mess the left and right coasts are in, I hope it stays conservative.
It's not backwards at all, it's just that we believe in traditional marriage.
People have a right not to be politically correct.Again, not rocket
Dominique: your apostasy is showing.
Please leave. I believe California and Massachusetts would welcome you. I here
there great places to live.
Dominique: The argument here is not whether gay people should have equal rights,
but what are the "rights" that should be equal. If we could come up with a
definition of what things are "rights" that we could agree on, the problem would
be solved.I have no problem with gay people having equal rights.
They already do. The things they are pushing for go well beyond rights, and
begin to look a lot like special treatment.
I am ecstatic to hear that we are making national news over this and I am hoping
the rest of the country does look at us as "backward." Then they won't come
here. If we keep them out then the homosexual population in Utah will die out on
its own or if we are really lucky, they will get tired of our "backward" ways
and move out!
So let me understand this. It's okay for gays and so-called gay rights activists
to verbally and physically attack the LDS church (its doctrines, members and
buildings) all in the name of attaining their rights, but its bigotry for
someone to say they think homosexuality is a sin and the gay rights tactics are
similar to terrorists? This is typical homosexual tactics to accuse
people of bigtry and mean-spiritedness who does not happily and fully embrace
their abnormal lifestyle. Watch carefully America and see where we
are headed because they will not stop until they are fully accepted and if
anyone disagrees they will be persecuted into silence.
I will never let you get away with your pro-gay, anti-Utah bigotry, no matter
how many boring, hateful totally predictable posts you make on every subject.
Maybe I'm not "enlightened" but I don't see how what Buttars said makes him a
bigot. He simply had the guts to say what many of us would like to say
publicly. The fact that he is being censured for opinion is appalling. The
fact that a minority can try to make me feel guilty because I don't agree with
what they do is disgusting.What bothers me most is that I have to be
politically correct. Political correctness is a front for an attack on the
conservatives. There is an attack on conservative values. They are values
which have upheld this nation and many other nations until fascism and
liberalism explains away the values which brought prosperity. Homosexuality
does not bring prosperity, only depravity. We will likely find this out the
hard way as we accept this sexual deviancy and our moral atmosphere declines
even further which does affect more than just peoples bedrooms. Sexual
depravity affects our children our morals and our spirituality, and these all
affect our economy our prosperity and our happiness.
Ok, so Buttars said some pretty asinine things. He still has a right to say it,
no matter how you paint it. His behavior toward non-LDS folk is sad and I hope
that he has a change of heart, for one will attract more flies with honey than
Utah has some of the nastiest far-righters I have ever seen.Draw
attention to this fact every chance you get.Never let a bigot get
away with their open bigotry.
It is sad that so much of the national news coming out of Utah centers on our
backward and embarrassing actions and quotes of our leaders. No wonder Utah has
such a hard time attracting new businesses to our state. Not long ago, there
were stories of how Utah wanted to attracted California's high tech industry...
but the state continues to shoot itself in the foot with people like Buttars and
his unapologetic bigotry against Black babies (last year) and gays (this year).
The very fact that Buttars get re-elected by his constituents confirms
non-Utahns' perception that the whole state opposes "outsiders" and is hostile
to non-whites and non-Mormons. I agree that Buttars is today's
George Wallace of Utah.
The utterance of Senator Buttars was far from bigotry. The hateful speech of
'gay' activists are deily printed by the Deseret News. This is
completely unjust.As for local polls. I took part in one, that
showed those who felt that Buttars was harshly treated by the Senate. At the
time the poll was supposed to be terminated sixty percent felt that Buttars
treatment by the Senate was "too harsh", but the poll kept on going. I presume
this was so that networking 'gay' activists could win by having people sit up
all night, all over the country, to win by sheer persistence where others had to
go to work the next day.
Reading some of the coverage of the recent live debate between the Sutherland
Institute and Equality Utah, what stood out the most to me was Sutherland
president Paul Mero's insistence that gay people don't even exist. That's
right. According to Paul, they're all just making it up, and that makes Paul an
extremist: he refuses to talk and instead tries to wish away his opponents.A little more moderation in all things, including politics, would do
I'm glad to hear that Ms. Storni acclaims herself as "enlightened and
progressive" as opposed to those professing a differing opinion. I suppose also
that she does not profess herself to be mean spirited by calling Mr. Buttars a
bigot for expressing his personal views, no matter how they may offend some. If
others want to steriotype all Utahns in the same category as Mr. Buttars, that
is their ignorant problem, but, sorry, it does not bother me. Any of us are
free to express their opinions no matter who they are or what office they hold.
Isn't America great?!
Senator Buttars reminds me of the ole Governor George Wallace of Alabama. George
said, "Segregation today, segregation tomorrow and segregation forever". What a
sad, but apt comparison.