Groups debate Common Ground


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  • Custer
    Feb. 22, 2009 2:33 p.m.

    Each of you please read the comment of "Sick of lies" and cease attempting to to be deities and pass eternal judgements here on earth. Accept yourself as humans and accept human diversity as human. Let a higher benevolent God pass judgements.

  • Custer
    Feb. 22, 2009 2:20 p.m.

    Each of you please read "Sick of lies" and stop acting as deities here on earth and as eternal judges. Accept human diversity as human and realize you are humans -not Gods. Leave judgement to a benevolent Almighty.

  • Blondie
    Feb. 21, 2009 7:45 p.m.

    Sorry gay/lesbians but homosexuality is 'un-natural' affection for the SAME sex. If that's the
    type of 'relationship' your choose, I DON'T CARE BUT...and this is a big BUT...don't try to force me to believe it is 'normal' or a relationship I want taught to my children and grandchildren as 'NORMAL' or under another label as an 'alternative lifestyle'. And I don't need some religious leader to teach me this. The parts just don't fit and neither does the lifestyle. Two gays or lesbians in a committed relationship is exactly that. It isn't a marriage and should never be.

  • Sick of the lies
    Feb. 21, 2009 7:11 p.m.

    Giving rights to LGBT people, and even legalizing same-sex marriage does not mean anybody is "forced to accept homosexuality". It does not mean the government or anybody else is legitimizing or endorsing gay relationships. Those who claim such are perpetuating lies and fearmongering.

    Religion is legal. Does that mean that anybody is forced to accept any particular religion or to practice it? Does that mean that the government endorses any particular religion? No, it does not.

    Alcohol is legal. Does that mean that anybody is forced to condone drinking or to drink themselves? Does that mean that the government endorses drinking? No, it does not.

    Stop the bigotry and lies, and stop making LGBT people second-class citizens to make yourselves feel superior. It's cruel, harmful and dishonest.

  • Call It
    Feb. 20, 2009 8:06 p.m.

    Who are you to say there aren't same-sex couples who are committed? This is a perfect example of the blanket judgement that many citizens and many legislators automatically give. How unthoughtful to a long term relationship that has gone through all the trials that we all deal with.
    Whether or not you agree with same-sex marriage, these relationships deserve respect. They deserve to care for each other and follow through on the promises they've made to each other.
    God knows we see enough two week marriages in the world. But we're reading stories in the media all the time about long term committed couples who are raising children and living life. ...not unlike the rest of us.

  • well, here's a thought
    Feb. 20, 2009 4:15 p.m.

    If marriage needs to be strengthened, is it not more reasonable to encourage marriage - real, honest, stick-with-it-through-thick-and-thin, all your life marriage - to either gays or straights? Faithful marriage cuts down on disease - if that is someone's concern. Kids get totally messed up when parents divorce. People who "don't need a piece of paper to validate [their] love" are the ones who have a bad attitude toward marriage. Why should shack-ups get the benefits of the common ground laws instead of couples who are actually committed to each other?

  • Call It
    Feb. 20, 2009 3:02 p.m.

    Call it like it is. You hold hate in your heart for 10% of every child GOD (& mostly) straight couples created. It's appauling.
    These people from Equality Utah aren't even asking for marriage. And why would they? They've been shunned by mainstream folks for so long - why would they want to be anything like us? They simply want to take care of each other - they want basic SIMPLE protections that still aren't as good as what my husband and I automatically got when we were married.
    Basic rights. They deserve that and so much more.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 20, 2009 2:28 p.m.

    Sutherland Institute forever! How can gays call themselves normal? In what class or species do we see reproduction with two daddys or two mommies? Did any gay get to this earth from a gay union? Look at nature folks. You are denying the natural order of things to try and justify your "condition."
    The rampant disease among homosexuals should give a clue. If it was totaly left to the gays, the human race as this earth knows it would cease to exist. God didn't create two Adam's in the Garden of Eden, or two Eve's. Get a grip! Where is the discipline?
    The pink illusion that you are living will render you weak and morally deficit. This is meant as truth not intolerance.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 20, 2009 1:05 p.m.

    If Sutherland Institute is so intolerant, why did they host the event? Why did they invite Equality Utah to participate? I appreciated Mero's comments. His comments needed to be said. He made a lot of people uncomfortable, but in a good way, I think.

    I appreciate the fact that two sides of the debate could come together and talk about the issues. What would a debate be if one side didn't really know what the other side was thinking. Why should one side tippy-toe around the issue. Let's get the issues out there and let's talk about them. And that's exactly what they did.

    It was clear there was mutual respect on both sides of the debate. It was also clear that neither side agreed with the other, but that's why it was called a debate.

    Cudos, Sutherland Institute!!!

  • John Charity Spring
    Feb. 20, 2009 12:26 p.m.

    Both sides of this argument are ignoring the most important point. If our society is to remain strong, we must ignore modern media's emphasis on immediate self-gratification at any cost. Our schools must return to the teaching of old fashioned values such as patience, civility, loyalty, fidelity, and respect for others.

  • Eric Harlow eharlow49@gmail.com
    Feb. 20, 2009 12:10 p.m.

    I love how much sense being infinitely punished for finite "sins" makes. You "sin" for you sixty or so years on earth? You're going to be punished for eternity. Geez

  • @calling the bluff
    Feb. 20, 2009 11:58 a.m.

    thank you I have been beating this same drum for months but they do not listenm they seem unconcerned by the truth.

  • Mc
    Feb. 20, 2009 11:50 a.m.

    Rob: You are trying to force acceptance of your beliefs on the rest of society. Of course, we can't be forced to practice homosexuality, but the demand that we accept homosexuality as normal and fine goes aginst everything we believe and it influences our children to accept things we don't believe. As it gains more acceptance we will see more public display of homosexual acts and our children will be affected. Gays & lesbians are free to call us homophobic and belittle our beliefs. They can protest against our church and businesses or individuals that dare to support traditional marriage. They can spew hatred all over the place, but if we dare to speak up about our beliefs, it is called hate speech and politically incorrect.

  • Judgement
    Feb. 20, 2009 10:57 a.m.

    Catch and release, Jesus does love all but when you appear before his judgement bar and have not repented of your sins, we'll see justice and mercy in action, irregarless of how much he loves you.

  • Calling the bluff5
    Feb. 20, 2009 10:40 a.m.

    27."Lesbian mothers and the children: A review for school psychologists." 1994 McIntyre D. Mediation Quarterly 12(2), winter, 135-149.
    28."Gay Parents and Child Custody: A Struggle under the Legal System" 1993 Patterson C. , Annual Progress in Child Psychiatry and Child Development 33-62
    29."Children of Lesbian and Gay Parents" 1992 Baggett C. Law and Psychology Review 16: 189-200.
    30."Sexual orientation: Should it affect child custody rulings." 1987 Kirkpatrick M. J of Homosexuality 14:201-11.
    31."Clinical Implications of Lesbian Mother Studies" 1986 Green R. Archives of Sexual Behavior 15:167-184.
    32."Lesbian Mothers and Their Children: A Comparison with Solo Parent Heterosexual Mothers and Their Children" 1986 Kleber D. Bulletin of the Am Acad of Psychiatry and Law 14(1):81-87.
    33."The impact of parental homosexuality in child custody cases: A review of the literature" 1983 Golombok S. J of Child Psychology and Psychiatry 24:551-572.
    34."Children in lesbian and single-parent households: Psychosexual and psychiatric appraisal" 1982 Green R. Bulletin of the Am Acad of Psychiatry and Law 10:7-15.

  • Calling the bluff4
    Feb. 20, 2009 10:39 a.m.

    20."Do Parents Influence the Sexual Orientation of Their Children? Findings from a Longitudinal Study of Lesbian Families." 1996 Patterson C. Journal of Social Issues 52(3): 29-50.
    21."Lesbian and gay families with children: Implications of social science research for policy" 1995 Bailey J. Developmental Psychology 31(1): 124-129.
    22."Sexual orientation of adult sons of gay fathers." 1995 Flaks D. Developmental Psychology 31(1): 105-114.
    23."Lesbians choosing motherhood: A comparative study of lesbian and heterosexual parents and their children." 1995 Fowler G. Family and Conciliation Courts Review 33(3): 361-376.
    24."Homosexual parents: Implications for custody cases" 1995 Tasker F. Am J of Orthopsychiatry 65:203-15.
    25. "Adults Raised as Children in Lesbian Families" 1995 van-Nijnatten C. Medicine and Law 14(5-6): 359-368.
    26."Sexual orientation of parents and Dutch family law." 1995 Victor S. School Psychology Review 24(3): 456-479.

  • Calling the bluff3
    Feb. 20, 2009 10:39 a.m.

    14. American Psychiatric Association resource document on controversies in child custody: Gay and lesbian parenting, transracial adoptions, joint versus sole custody, and custody gender issues." 1998 McNeill K. Psychological Reports 82:59-62.
    15." Families and parenting: A comparison of lesbian and heterosexual mothers" 1998 Parks C. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry 68(3): 376-389.
    16."Lesbian parenthood: A review of the literature" 1997 Brewaeys A. Human Reproduction 12:1349-59 1997 Brewaeys A. J of Psychosomatic Obs and Gyn 18:1-16 1997 Patterson C. Advances in Clinical Child Psychology 19:235-282.
    17. "Children of lesbian and gay parents" 1997 Tasker F. Journal of Divorce and Remarriage 1997 28 (1-2) 183-202.
    18."Young People's Attitudes toward Living in a Lesbian Family: A Longitudinal Study of Children Raised by Post-Divorce Lesbian Mothers" 1996 Allen M. J of Homosexuality 32(2):19-35.
    19."Comparing the impact of homosexual and heterosexual parents on children: Meta-analysis of existing research" 1996 Golombok S. Developmental Psychology 32 (1) p3-11.

  • Calling the bluff
    Feb. 20, 2009 10:36 a.m.

    I am done with unsubstantiated claims that gay and lesbian parents are inferior to straight parents. Read a study before you lie again. Here are some:
    1. Gay/lesbian parents report no greater stress than heterosexuals, and children are not adversely affected by being raised by homosexual families 2005 Lambert S. Family Journal: Counseling & Therapy for Couples & Families 13(1): 43-51.
    2."Gay and Lesbian Families: What We Know and Where to Go From Here" 2004 Wainright J. Child Development 75(6): 1886-1898.
    3."Psychosocial Adjustment, School Outcomes, and Romantic Relationships of Adolescents With Same-Sex Parents" 2003 Golombok S. Developmental Psychology 39: 20-33.
    4."Children with lesbian parents: A community study." 2003 Millbank J. Australian Journal of Social Issues 38: 541-600.
    5."From here to maternity: A review of the research on lesbian and gay families." 2002 Vanfraussen K. Journal of Reproductive and Infant Psychology 20: 237-252.

  • Kris
    Feb. 20, 2009 9:20 a.m.

    The Common Ground Initiative is right on one point: I have thought about and discussed the topic of gay marriage/issues when I never really thought about it before.

    However, I am tired of the gay/lesbian community's unending efforts to force me to accept them and their lifestyle. "You're going to have to accept us. You're un-American if you don't. You don't have Christlike love if you don't see our lifestyle as acceptable."

    I am not a hater. I love my gay and lesbian friends. But I do not agree with their lifestyle and I do not agree that gay marriage should be legalized.

    In America, you're allowed to have your own opinion. Let me have mine.

  • Rob
    Feb. 20, 2009 9:06 a.m.

    It doesnt really matter who won the fact is why should anyone judge the way one lives their life? Who or what gives anyone the right to control another. If I came into someones home and forced my beliefs what would happen? Would you fight to keep your beliefs or follow mine? The LDS of all people should understand being ostracized, or are you just hippocritical, are we to judge? Why do we use what suits us from the bible and choose to ignore the things we dont like. Is it right? If a church, a private institution, doesnt like gay marriage then excommunicate them, that simple, thats the extent of your rule but to force religious belief into the lives of people that dont believe in your religion is ridiculous. Once again religion crosses its boundaries into state issues. Our religion is OUR BELIEF, an individual trait and choice. Let people chose whats best for them in their lifestyle not yours. If you think I am wrong, then invite me over to force my beliefs onto you and your family. Think about it.

  • Eowyn
    Feb. 20, 2009 9:02 a.m.

    Um...How Sad? You just kind of proved Not So's point. Yes, this is an emotional issue, but it's primarily a legal issue, which requires evidence and sound methodology. The fact of the matter is that children do best in a traditional family with a biological mother and father - study after study has confirms this. (One that immediately comes to mind is that girls do better in mathematics if their *fathers* are engaged in their lives.) Traditional marriage is the best means society has to protect the most vulnerable population - children - and that is weakening on many fronts. This movement isn't "anti-gay," it's pro-marriage and has been seeking to reduce divorce and single parenting in addition to prevent a radical redefiniations of marriage.

  • Danny C.
    Feb. 20, 2009 8:40 a.m.

    Re: how sad

    I could just as easily say shame on you for supporting this debauchery and societal poison.

    This argument is going to go on for a looong time.

  • Catchnrelease
    Feb. 20, 2009 8:24 a.m.

    Jesus Christ loved all people. The haters in this argument do not reflect His values.

  • Mc
    Feb. 20, 2009 8:21 a.m.

    Chino Blanco: The more people hear from Paul Mero, LaVar Christensen, Stan Rasmussen and the rest of that bunch, the less impressed they're going to be.

    I disagree. The more I hear from them the more impressed I am. The more I hear from gay activists and see their disgusting behavior toward those who disagree with them, the less inclined I am to support their causes.

  • how sad
    Feb. 20, 2009 7:49 a.m.

    It's disgusting that this debate even had to take place. Shame on all of you who share the anti-gay sentiment in this community.

  • Matt
    Feb. 20, 2009 7:28 a.m.

    I've read both sides and am strongly in support of the Sutherland Inst. The reason the "same old" arguments have been used is becuase we're not the first generation to face this issue. Other generations have simply understood better that sexual orientation is a choice and that it goes against natural laws.

    The search for the "missing homosexual gene" is exactly that, still missing and uproven along with the beastiality, pedophilia, and adulter genes.

  • Not so
    Feb. 20, 2009 6:46 a.m.

    I was at the debate but the reporter must not have been there. If a debate judge would have awarded points, the Sutherland group would have won on every point. They presented fact and evidence. For instance Christensen didn't say of his opinion that homosexuals are rife with disease, a UofU prof expert was quoted from scientific evidence. To every point of fact that gays offered nothing but emotional indignance. The gays in the audience were rude and that whole side was an in-your-face crown, defiant with the attitude that you'll do as we say or we'll hurt you. I've concluded that reporters long ago left the world of journalistic skills and fact reporting and certainly are not the smartest people on the planet.

  • Chino Blanco
    Feb. 20, 2009 1:42 a.m.

    The more people hear from Paul Mero, LaVar Christensen, Stan Rasmussen and the rest of that bunch, the less impressed they're going to be.

    These guys have been trotting out the same old arguments for years now, and they don't seem to be coming up with any new ones.

    The old arguments rely on an audience that is scared to death of the word "gay" ... and that audience is shrinking. More and more folks will begin to recognize that the way Sutherland describes gay people is bogus, that it doesn't sound anything like the actual gay people that we know.

    These guys want to pretend we're arguing about the definition of marriage. Guess what? Gays and lesbians who want to marry are motivated by the same things that make straight folks want to marry. How hard is that to understand? Anyway, Sutherland has already now proven that this is not about marriage. Those guys are opposed to any and all advancement in rights for gays.