Comments about ‘Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?’

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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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Bob Jayne

Just finished the new book by Harv Murdock, THE EDUCATED OUTLAW. Harv is the Grandson of Elzy Lay. The book is not only full of information, but Mr. Murdock's style of writing is unique, compared to some of the other history writers. Mr. Murdock shares what he knows. Doesn't try to tell us how much he knows. A very enjoyable, down to earth book. Only complaint: it ended too quickly.

Bob Jayne

Anonymous

The attacks on Dan are unwarranted.

Horse C C has described what makes for a good horse race. A difference of opinion.

The track record of your Mr. Buck is very well known HCC. His way of dealing with those who do not buy his theory! We gain nothing by repeating that here. Get a grip HorseCC. Let us deal in reality. You know, things like facts. If you aren't aware of (or choose to ignore) Mr. Buck's many, many documented attacks (his very questionable, reported facts??) good luck in the third grade.

Jerry Nickle

Horse Creek Cowboy


In Bucks book on 37 he states Sundance and Etta visited the hospital in Buffalo New York before Feb 1, 1901. For his documentation he uses a Pinkerton memo dated April 3, 1902. I have that Pinkerton memo and it states they visited the hospital in Buffalo in the summer of 1901. Why did he misquote that memo?

The Pinkerton history #1497 of Butch Cassidy states the last part of May 1901 Butch was near Wilcox Arizona on his way to Globe Arizona to get his mail.
In 1907 William Pinkerton said Butch and Sundance were at the Wagner train robbery on July 3, 1901. On page 49 in Bucks book he states there is a document showing they were in Argentina on that very day. The Pinkerton history #1961 for Harry Longabaugh states he was in Price and Vernal Utah on his way to Baggs Wyoming in July 1901.

Jerry Nickle


Dan Buck has discovered three documents that show Butch and Sundance were in Argentina in 1901. One of these documents was for a purchase of some horses on June 11, 1901. There is also a document showing they registered for a cattle brand In October 1901. Ernst 137. Both of these documents Buck referred as authentic in the other blog.

They cannot be in the USA and Argentina at the same time.
I charge these Argentine documents used by Dan Buck are forgeries. He has the responsibility to verify all document and this failure has destroyed his credibility.
If I am wrong please show me where.


Jerry Nickle

Horse Creek Cowboy.
You are obviously familiar with this subject so I would like your opinion on another Argentine document.
Buck has referred to a newly discovered article that was published April 17, 1912, in the Buenos Aires Standard, as authentic. You can read this article in Ernsts new book pages 188-198.
I believe this is another forgery, which Buck has called authentic. I cannot see how anyone would not call this document a forgery.
Please read it and lets discuss this document here and hope you can show me where I am wrong.

Jerry Nickle

Curious
Are you a descendant of Luzernia Allred and Silas Morrell?

Jerry Nickle


Yes I did read THE EDUCATED OULLAW by Harvey Murdock. On page 3 Murdock tells the story of his meeting and spending some time with Lula Bentenson. Murdock stated She was in her nineties and sharp as a tack.

In Robert Redfords book THE OUTLAW TRAIL he tells of meeting and spending some time with ninety four year old Lula. He found her to spry, witty strong-willed, with a gentle feminine sprit that warmed you. Redford further states he was struck by her beauty even at this age. She is tall and elegant, a proud person who enjoys living And her mind is thirty years or younger.

Dan Buck has never met Lula and he said she had a deteriorated mind. That is absolutely outrages and he should make a public apology to the family

AC

"Dan Buck has never met Lula and he said she had a deteriorated mind. That is absolutely outrages and he should make a public apology to the family"

Mr. Buck will unearth Robin Hood before he is man enough to stand up and be accountable (let alone offer his apology) for what he has said about many others, especially Lula Parker Betenson. I understand he even denied, what he actuall said in a one on one at a meeting a few years ago. And you want an apology? Good luck.

AC

Jerry Nickle

Horse Creek Cowboy
You have seen on this blog how little Buck tried to discredit me with a fake document.

Horse Creek Cowboy

Jerry:

The point is that even if we disagree with someone, we may remain civil and not engage in name calling. I have disagreed with Dan on some points, but we have remained civil. Name calling only begets more name calling. One does not prove something, by disproving someone else.

History should be written from primary sources, not secondary sources. No one currently alive can prove who was present at the various robberies here or in South America. We can only disprove and the disproof must rely on secondary sources of which the Pinkerton files were rife. Buck and Meadows have done all of us a great service by focusing on primary documents. Quite frankly, I am surprized that Dan would even be willing to engage in discussion when he is belittled, made fun of and assailed.

As for me, I am still looking for Harvey Logan. There is only one thing I am sure of, he was not Tap Duncan.

AC

"Name calling only begets more name calling. ((One does not prove something, by disproving someone else.))"-----No truer words were ever spoken! An extremely clear picture of what Buck has been trying to do for a number of years. Well said HCC. A perfect example to back your comments, his stating Mrs. Betenson's mind was corroded due to her age. Shall we say, that was 100% incorrect. But what she said, Buck doesn't like and you know what that leads to!

"Buck and Meadows have done all of us a great service by focusing on primary documents"-------- Hmmmm. Such as what Mr. Parker's niece "reportedly" said. Or the "accuracy" of his "phone call" to, was it Mrs. Charter. Or his writing to Dora Flack, to see if Dora thought Lula was a liar. There are more, many more. Up to now, most cowboys I have known were rather serious fellows.

Bottom line HCC, Buck will do and say anything to make himself look right.

AC

Retired Judge

I am not sure, that pointing out the improper actions of an individual, when factual, can be called "attacking". Seems to me the comments do not have a political twist, just an attempt to see some fairness done. Maybe wishful thinking, hopefully it is not too late to try.

Wasn't there a, "do unto others as you would have others do unto you" or words similiar? Sounds better than "attack" any day.

RJ

Randall

Let's All Meet At The Oakley Polar King This July 4th Rodeo and Wait For The Next Reported Sighting.

Gaylen Robison

To Curious
According to a pedigree chart, Harry Alonzo Longabaugh's mother's name is Annie G. Place. She was born 27 Sept. 1828. She died 18 May, 1887.
Hope this helps you friend.

Jerry Nickle

Horse Creek Cowboy

I hope we can engage in a civil discussion as you do. I recognize Dan Bucks contributions
Those three 1901 Argintina documents can be shown as being faked by using Charlie Siringo the best primary source there is. After the Tipton robbery on Aug 29, 1900 the Pinkerton detective agency assigned detective Charles Siringo to the case. He was ordered to go to Alma New Mexico where Butch had spent the previous winter believing Butch might have returned there. He got a tip that two of the robbers, Ben Killpatrick and Kid Curry, went through Grand Junction Colorado so he went there and followed their trail. South of Grand Junction Siringo met a rancher who recognized a photograph of Kid Curry At the Carlisle ranch near Monticelo Utah the ranch manager told Siringo the two outlaws had passed through saying they were going to where the climate fit their cloths. The manager said he believed they meant Arizona or New Mexico as the cloths they were wearing were to light for the winter. (Siringo 339-342)

Jerry Nickle

Following the outlaws trail Siringo lost it in the deep snow near Bluff City Utah. (Siringo 346) This was winter so it had to have been November or December 1900. Because of the snow Siringo then went back north to Hanksville where he received orders to go to Circleville Utah Where Butchs family lived to see what he could discover there. On his way to Circleville he had to take another detour because of snow. Siringo 348. From Circleville he was ordered to go to Alma New Mexico. When he arrived in Alma he discovered Butch was not there so Siringo left and was soon in Frisco New Mexico. In

Jerry Nickle

Frisco Siringo discovered Butch and eight other outlaws were then camped forty miles southwest of Frisco where Butch had established a Robbers Roost or rendezvous. This had to have been Feb or March 1901. When spring came Butch broke camp and was seen near Wilcox Arizona in May 1901 by Pinkerton informant Blake Graham who knew Butch well.

Those three 1901 Argintina document have been faked because Butch was not Argintina.
I not accusing Dan Buck of being the guilty party but he has the responsibility to authenticate documents and he failed here.

Horse Creek Cowboy

Jerry,

We all need to be careful in relying on Charlie. He wrote from memory and was known, perhaps, to change things to fit the story. Basicly, as I see it, The argument is that because he was in the US in the spring, he could not have been in Argentina. But the same can be taken the other way, because, he was busy applying in April for four square leagues of property at the land office, he could not have been in the US. We simply do not know. In the museum in Chubut is a receipt signed by Santiago Ryan. I am trying to get the date. Incidently, various newspaper reports are notorious for inaccuacy. The San Francisco Call reported, November 08, 1901, that Sundannce going under the name of J. W. Rose, were arrested in St. Louis. The Ogden Standard reported, Feb. 21, 1910, that Butch was in Argentina.
"Forgery" is a strong word and I am glad you are receding from saying Dan did it.

Jerry Nickle

HCC
You are very well informed and I thank you for discussing this with me.

Yes the argument is 1901. Butch was not in Argentina in April 1901 applying for land. He was there applying for land in April 1902. There is absolutely no Pinkerton documentation at all Butch was in Argentina in 1901 and the three 1901 Argentina documents showing he was there I believe are fakes. I am not accusing Dan Buck of creating these fakes documents, but I would not be surprised if Dan Bucks friend Tito Juarez was involved.

Jerry Nickle

HCC
Is Michael Bell a friend of Dan Bucks. I would like to discuss his discovery too.

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