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Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?

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  • THEeyepatch
    Feb. 17, 2009 1:54 a.m.

    Is this really a story? What's the story for tommarrow "Is there Cheese on the Moon?", cant wait!

  • Farmer Joe
    Feb. 17, 2009 6:38 a.m.

    All evidence points to Long being the Sundance kid there is no doubt in my mind that this is the Sundance kid

  • Bear Laker
    Feb. 17, 2009 6:58 a.m.

    Hey! Eyepatch why did you read it? Learn to spell!!! TOMORROW

  • Dignity
    Feb. 17, 2009 7:22 a.m.

    Too bad that they didn't exume the remains more carefully rather than allowing all the dirt to fall in. Just seems disrespectful regardless of who it might be to have this done so unceremoniously while taking pictures and allowing dirt to fall in there.

  • Kay
    Feb. 17, 2009 7:41 a.m.

    Why does everyone commenting on here act so rude and hot-headed??

  • LDS in TN
    Feb. 17, 2009 7:48 a.m.

    I have to admit to being a 14 year old in 1969 and loving the movie. I have read a lot of things since then but never have been convinced that anyone knows exactly what happened in Bolivia. however, after toggling back and forth several times between the group picture and the pic of the couple, I am convinced. If forensic evidence confirms that this is Sundance, then we better take another look at the stories of Butch's survival and check his remains.

    Hey Bear Laker, is that the best you can come up with? Why can't you just stick to commenting on the story. I apologize in advance if I misspelled anything. I wouldn't want to offend your great lliterary sensitivities.

  • ALL AMERICAN HAWK
    Feb. 17, 2009 8:00 a.m.

    MY GREAT GRANDFATHER,LORUM PRATT,SR.,WAS COCONINO
    COUNTY,AZ SHERIFF IN 1909.HE HAS A PAGE IN HIS JOURNAL
    WHERE HE ENCOUNTERED BUTCH CASSIDY STEALING CATTLE
    OUTSIDE OF FREDONIA,AZ.BUTCH SPENT SOME TIME IN THE
    FREDONIA JAIL BUT TOOK HIS MEALS WITH THE PRATT FAMILY IN THEIR HOME.LORUM WAS HAVING SOME FINANCIAL
    PROBLEMS BUT APPARENTLY BUTCH HELPED HIM OUT TO THANK
    HIM FOR HIS HOSPITALITY.THIS WAS A YEAR AFTER BUTCH WAS SUPPOSEDLY KILLED IN BOLIVIA.I BELIEVE BUTCH DIED
    OF OLD AGE DURING THE EARLY 40'S.

  • SLC gal
    Feb. 17, 2009 8:12 a.m.

    There is a striking similarity there.

  • Cats
    Feb. 17, 2009 8:44 a.m.

    I met an old professor from Circleville. When I asked about Butch Cassidy he told me he knew his family (Parker) well when he was a child.

    He said he knew for a FACT that Butch did not die in South America. He was buried on the Parker ranch near Circleville, but the town didn't know exactly where. Butch's sister always said she knew where he was buried but always refused to say.

    Then a construction project revealed the secret. Excavation was going across the Parker ranch. At one point the whole Parker family ran down and stood on a plot of land and refused to allow the machinery to dig there. That's when everyone knew exactly where Butch was buried.

    I talked to an historian once who had participated in a television documentary and believed Butch died in Bolivia. I finally realized, despite evidence to the contrary, this guy had bought into a theory, staked his reputation and wouldn't budge.

    I think it is pretty clear at this point that Butch came home and died in the states.

    Fascinating story. Can't wait for the results.



  • Butch played bass with Elvis!
    Feb. 17, 2009 8:51 a.m.

    If you look closely at pictures of Elvis you will see Butch Cassidy playing the bass in his band. He wasn't killed in Bolivia and I think he may have even been at the grassy knoll. I love the stories (honestly) just don't take it all too seriously people, it's just fun history

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 17, 2009 9:37 a.m.

    There are stories of Butch Cassidy staying at the Guerrero Ranch in Motoqua in Southern Utah. Very remote.

  • Mr. Bean
    Feb. 17, 2009 9:43 a.m.

    I happen to be watching the history station on my satellite dish last evening mind you, they were exhuming bodies once again in England. Like I said once before: You can bury them today and dig them up tomorrow-- an old English tradition.

    Ummmmmm, I was somewhat interested about the Sundance, kids DNA? Is there possibly a match as of yet?

    "CHEERS"!!!

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 17, 2009 10:00 a.m.

    too bad "eye patch" didn't have his other eye poked out.

    Great article.

  • WHAT?
    Feb. 17, 2009 10:11 a.m.

    Is this facination w/digging up people's graves?can someone tell me what it is?in a town back east about 40 years ago they dug up an indian graveyard and took the best looking remains and put them on public display.a morbid,disrespectful display of the deceased.These people should be"HORSE WHIPPED".Not asking that you agree with me but just "think about it.

  • Sneaky Jimmy
    Feb. 17, 2009 10:19 a.m.

    I once told a woman I met in a bar that my name was Harry Longbaugh. There may have been many people that thought using the name of a famous dead outlaw as an alias was a good idea.

  • Granny T.
    Feb. 17, 2009 10:27 a.m.

    I heard that Butch Cassidy did not die in a shootout in Bolivia in 1908, but assumed a new name, William T. Phillips, and lived a quiet life in Spokane until his death in 1937.

  • Ralphie
    Feb. 17, 2009 10:53 a.m.

    I love how all of the comments are about how Butch Cassidy was seen here or there but the actual article is about the Sundance Kid. SNAP!

  • Just ranch hands
    Feb. 17, 2009 11:03 a.m.

    These guys were just ranch hands for Charlie Crouse - lived in Crouse canyon near Vernal.. Charlie had a business selling beef to the Army; the two boys were in "procurement".

    Good boys too.

  • Cats
    Feb. 17, 2009 11:12 a.m.

    The PBS documentary about forensics that were done on bodies in South America turned out to be a big bust. They were NOT able to prove the bodies were actually Butch and Sundance.

    This is a great unsolved mystery and we may never know the answer (at least not in this life) but I think the evidence is mounting that they did NOT die in South America.

    Members of the Parker family were mum about it for many years, but other members have stated that Butch came home and died in the states many years later. I think that really makes the argument pretty strong that Butch came home. There are also other accounts of witnesses that saw Butch on the Parker property after he was supposed to have been killed in Bolivia.

    I hope the paper will report the DNA results as soon as they are available. I think this story is just fascinating.

  • Butch
    Feb. 17, 2009 11:38 a.m.

    Wa'll I done hers they waz thinkin about digging up at star gazin feller in itally to see if his DNA wud explain why he drew funny picures of saturn.
    Excuse me, History is one thing but why should we kill off good fun stories with facts, sheeze guys

  • Ski Utah
    Feb. 17, 2009 11:45 a.m.

    My grandma was born and raised in Jensen (near Vernal) where Josie Bassett (an old girlfriend of Cassidy's) lived. My grandma had all kinds of stories about the Wild Bunch members (Butch, Sundance, etc)visiting the area and even having some over to her house for dinner. My grandma was born in 1915.......

  • Earl Dean
    Feb. 17, 2009 11:47 a.m.

    Lol, Mormons and their concocted legends. I guess it's true, when you have nothing to be proud of, you'll make something up.

  • Cats
    Feb. 17, 2009 12:04 p.m.

    To Earl Dean: I think it is always so funny to read the blogs by these people who comb the paper every day to find ANY article that will give them any excuse to attack Mormons. Of course, anyone can write anything he/she wants to on a blog no matter how completely stupid or off point it is.

  • Jeff
    Feb. 17, 2009 12:57 p.m.

    I heard that Sundance and Butch Cassidy both hung-out in some little Mormon village near Zions canyon called Grafton. Nevertheless this little ghost town is no longer on the map of utah.

  • Guyaco
    Feb. 17, 2009 1:06 p.m.

    If Robert Redford hadn't played the Sundance character, no one would care what happened to the original.

  • Brighamite
    Feb. 17, 2009 1:18 p.m.

    I can't say if Butch and Sundance hung out in Grafton or not, but some of the 1969 movie was filmed there.

    It is interesting how outlaws have legends of dying of old age. Not saying Butch or Sundance did or did not. If you watch the Young Guns movies you will find the same about Billy the Kid. Some say he died of old age too, despite the account of Sherrif Pat Garrett who claims to have killed him.

  • anom
    Feb. 17, 2009 1:52 p.m.

    For the THEeyepatch 1:54pm. Tomorrow's story will about spelling, with emphasis on the word tomorrow!!!!

  • Swasey's leap
    Feb. 17, 2009 2:06 p.m.

    Butch and Sundance wintered with with my great uncle Swasey down on the San Rafael. Think what you want.

  • Steve
    Feb. 17, 2009 2:19 p.m.

    Grafton is still there just south of Rockville. Been there many times. My grandfater told me of stories of when he was young down around Circleville and meeting Butch.

  • NV Bound
    Feb. 17, 2009 2:36 p.m.

    There are many stories that Butch did return to Utah to visit but enjoyed his later days prospecting down around Death Valley-Pahrump. -Sure hope I spelled everything correctly.

  • Bybee
    Feb. 17, 2009 2:46 p.m.

    I have an ancestor buried in Grafton, Utah. It has to be one of the coolest looking pioneer graveyards that I have ever scene. It is definitely a beautiful place to visit. However, if you ever go there you will need to watch for rattle snakes that seem to lurk around there. I have heard many stories about Butch Cassidy visiting the area, although I'm too certain about the Sundance kid?

  • ALL AMERICAN HAWK
    Feb. 17, 2009 2:51 p.m.

    WYATT EARP DIED IN 1929 IN HOLLYWOOD.HE WAS WRITING
    SCRIPTS FOR WESTERN MOVIES AND DIED OF OLD AGE

  • Sean
    Feb. 17, 2009 3:02 p.m.

    Butch Cassidy is DB Cooper. Who, incidentally, is Bigfoot, who died of old age in Scipio.

  • Duchesne, Utah
    Feb. 17, 2009 3:23 p.m.

    I wish my neighbor was still alive. He is the grandson who found his grandfather, Harry, dead.
    He never mentioned much about his grandad other than the "Long's were a bunch of outlaws". Kind of funny now that there is this twist on the story.
    My neighbor's wife is still alive, and she is pretty sure that we will find out that Harry is in fact - the Sundance Kid.
    I don't know if they ever talked about it or not. It will be interesting.

  • Gaylen Robison
    Feb. 17, 2009 4:19 p.m.

    Here's a puzzle for you skeptics and doubters. Fact #1. William Henry Long married Luzernia Allred Morrell. Their first born was a daughter named Viola. Viola grows up and gets married.
    Viola's first born is Elva. Elva is my mother. She is still alive. Fact #2: There is a picture that hung on the wall in great grandpa and grandma Long's living room in their home near Duchesne, Utah. The picture is of Harry Longabaugh's sisters. The sisters names were Samanna and Emma. My mother remembers the picture and remembers Grandpa Long telling her it was a picture of his sisters. Fact # 3: Harry Longabaugh's sister Samanna gave birth to a daughter and named the baby Elva. That baby died at birth. Then Samanna gave birth to another daughter and named her Viola. Viola also died at birth. Fact #4: Harry Longabaugh's brother's son was named William Henry Longabaugh. Fact #5: The "Sundance Kid" was an alias for Harry Longabaugh. Now comes my great grandfather posing as William Henry Long. Now just pretend for a moment that you are Sherlock Holmes. Is it possible that you might have a clue or two?

  • Amazing
    Feb. 17, 2009 4:20 p.m.

    the wonders of the mind is....

  • Bear Rug
    Feb. 17, 2009 4:33 p.m.

    I love a good mystery! This story is awesome! All of you nattering nabobs of negativity--stick it in your ear!

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 17, 2009 4:59 p.m.

    My, oh, my, this was fun speculation until Bear Rug had to quote Spiro Agnew. However...I do believe that Butch and Sundance did not die in Bolivia. I believe that, because I want to.

  • Don't stop
    Feb. 17, 2009 5:07 p.m.

    Fun! Once we get the Sundance Kid thing solved can we work on Frank Morris. You will remember he escaped from Alcatraz in 1962 never to be found. He would be 83 if still alive.

  • who cares?
    Feb. 17, 2009 5:12 p.m.

    at best he was a thief!

  • Cats
    Feb. 17, 2009 5:16 p.m.

    To Gaylen Robison: That is EXTREMELY interesting. I sure hope that the DNA turns out to prove the connection. That would be so fascinating. It would help solve one of the really fun unsolved mysteries. It would also show that all the so-called experts in this area are wrong and that some of the witnesses over the years were right. That is, that Butch and Sundance didn't get killed in South America after all.

    I don't know for sure what the truth is, but I hope it turns out to be true. It would make such a great story.

    If you have any more information, please blog in.

  • HEY HAWK!
    Feb. 17, 2009 5:24 p.m.

    QUIT SCREAMING!

  • Hey Geico or whatever,
    Feb. 17, 2009 6:36 p.m.

    who is Robert Redford????

  • Butch used to visit...
    Feb. 17, 2009 11:13 p.m.

    ...friends in Manti and Spring City many years after he was supposedly killed in Bolivia. To many in the area this was common knowledge.

    Another interesting fact - Butch's mother (Ann Gillies Parker) was a survivor of the Martin Handcart Company.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Feb. 18, 2009 7:54 a.m.

    William Henry Long was not Harry Longabaugh. William Long was born ca. 1867-1867 in Fayette Co., Pa. He moved with his family to Iowa City Iowa in the 1860s. He moved to Wyoming, near Cheyenne around 1880 and worked with his sister's husband, Henry Parker as a teamster hauling freight out of Ft. D.A. Russell. In 1886 he joined the Army at Ft. Leavenworth KS. He stayed in the Army until Nov 2, 1893 when he deserted from Ft. Clark, TX. He drifted from Texas to Utah where he met and married Luzernia Morrell, the widow of Silas Morrell. The quarrel that resulted in the shooting of George Morrell, Silas' brother happend on October 21 1901, not 1910 as stated in the article. This was at a time that Butch and Sundance were in South America.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Feb. 18, 2009 8:04 a.m.

    I wish the Deseret News would get their facts straight before they publish stories like this one. The fight and shooting that that happened between William Long and George Morrell was on Oct 21, 1901 and was reported in the Oct 24th 1901 issue, not in 1910. This was during the time that Butch and Sundance were supposed to be in South America. This makes the whole rest of the story suspect.

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 18, 2009 12:22 p.m.

    There were three South American Documents produced showing Butch and Sundance were in Argentina in 1901, which would disqualify Bill Long as Sundance. These alleged authentic document are fake and have been produced to support authors who have taken a position they were killed in Bolivia. Because Sundance returned and Butch never went there in 1901 these authors credibility has been lost for them. These authors have a lot a stake and are trying to protect their position.

    The Pinkerton files state Butch was in Wilcox, Arizona in May 1901. Another Pinkerton file states Sundance was in Buffalo New York in the summer of 1901. William Pinkerton himself said they were part of the gang that robbed the train at Wagner Montana on July 3, 1901. Another Pinkerton document states Sundance was in Price Utah in July 1901. This would mean Sundance was in the USA on Oct 21, 1901 when as Bill Long he pistol-whipped George Morrell.

    It does not make any difference if Sundance returned or not. These Authors credibility has been destroyed because they produced fake documents to support their position.


  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 18, 2009 12:51 p.m.

    The census records show The William Henry Long born in Fayette Co Pennsylvania was born before 1860 not ca.1867-1867 and the person this made this entry knows that. There is absolutely no evidence at all this William Henry Long was ever in Utah.
    The established authors are desperate to protect their position and will continue to try to produce fake documents to support their position.

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 18, 2009 2:03 p.m.

    All of the established authors have written that the Pinkerton files state Butch, Sundance and Etta were in New York City the first week of Feb 1901. I have the Pinkerton files and they do not state that at all. I have found many other Pinkerton file distortions the authors have made. I am going to publish over 20 Pinkerton memos in my book so everyone can see how they have been distorted or ignored.

    The established authors are in a panic.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Feb. 18, 2009 2:18 p.m.

    I think Jerry was meaning ca. 1860-1867 not 1867-1867. William Long's death cert. & tombstone lists 1860, his marriage record age 27 (1867). the 1900 census 36 (1864), later censuses indicate 1867. Earlier censuses indicate either 1857 (1860 census), or 1859 (the 1880 census). His military records indicate a birth year of 1865. William Henry Long could have been born anywhere between 1857 and 1867.

    By the way I am not desperate to protect my position, I have not produced any fake documents and do not intent to do so. I am only stating fact.

    Jerry - as a message to you - to "prove" that William Henry Long was Harry Longabaugh is going to be tough because the burden of proof is on you. To prove your point you have to not only make an acceptable argument concerning William Long, but you also have to prove all other possible explanations are false, with documentation that is irrefutable, with a preponderance of evidence to support your case, much like in a court of law. So far "family tradition" does not cut the cake.

  • Dyslexia Bob
    Feb. 18, 2009 3:09 p.m.

    What? I just read the article and it said the pistol-whipping was in 1901 - I pasted it below for you:

    Still Long did, on at least one occasion, display a propensity for violence. The Oct. 24, 1901, Deseret News reported that Long had pistol-whipped a relative in a dispute over irrigation water. The gun had discharged during the incident, grazing the man's head

  • Big Bird
    Feb. 18, 2009 3:39 p.m.

    All these negative and postitive comments are interesting. To those who add documentable evidence, thank you. Here's hoping the truth will come out and the family can settle down knowing the truth about their family history. Knowing the identity and what happened to our historical legends
    helps to bring a fitting conclusion to the story of Sundance. And it appears to me the story is about Sundance, not Robert LeRoy Parker AKA Butch Cassidy.

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 18, 2009 4:24 p.m.

    Bob
    At 7:54 AM this morning you entered William Long was born ca.1867-1867 Are you telling me now ca 1860-1867? You are the one that is confused. I assumed ca 1867-1867 was correct because you typed it. This is an example why all references should be verified.

    I suggest you read the article again. He was 27 in 1894 when he was married. With a little math you can determine he was born in 1867.

    Where is your evidence that your William Henry Long was ever in Utah? He was never in Utah. I would guess your man lived in Texas by just using you unverified sources.

    I dont have to prove anything to you or your sidekick and I dont care what you believe. This is not a court of law, this is a court of public opinion. I will go to the public with my evidence. Most of the public believes Butch and Sundance returned home. Your sidekick never proved they were killed in Bolivia and has already lost the argument without my evidence.

  • AC
    Feb. 18, 2009 5:15 p.m.

    "Jerry - as a message to you - to "prove" that William Henry Long was Harry Longabaugh is going to be tough because the burden of proof is on you. To prove your point you have to not only make an acceptable argument concerning William Long, but you also have to prove all other possible explanations are false, with documentation that is irrefutable, with a preponderance of evidence to support your case, much like in a court of law." ---sayeth ghosttownbob

    GTB, you are getting familiar, I seem to recall you had your opinions, when I think we met in Hanksville, UT sometime ago. Why don't we allow Mr. Nickle the opportunity to make a fool of himself, as other "noted" historians have already done. (besides, he might be right) You mention " a court of law". I know things aren't like they used to be but does the jury now reach a verdict, before all the evidence is in? Come on Butch, the Foremost Authority, had his chance, don't you want to be fair and a gentleman, and give Mr. Nickle his?

  • LDS in TN
    Feb. 18, 2009 8:49 p.m.

    AC, Jerry, Bob and anyone else interested.

    This has been a really fun and ridiculous arguement. Even my earlier comments have to be taken with a big lump of salt.

    The truth is that no one here is argueing as a trained historian. No real historian has ever proven anything. There is one major reason for that.
    Historians never try to prove anything. They know that any "proof" they present can and probably will be disproven when more evidence comes to light. Historical proof is a vain ambition and anyone who claims to have proven anything in history is indulging in vanity.

    Of course those of us who indulge ourselves with the study of history do go overboard at times.

    You know, I just remembered something. This isn't a historical treatise. It is a newspaper report. How did all of us lose track of that in our vain ambition to prove that we each are right.

    I believe that there is a good chance that Butch and the Kid died peacefully as old men. But I never get tired of remembering Newman and Redford running hellbent for leather into the face of the Bolivian army.

  • Gaylen Robison
    Feb. 18, 2009 10:46 p.m.

    Hey Ghosttown Bob, that William Henry Long that you said was born in 1865, came to Iowa, then to Wyoming where he worked as a teamster, joined the Army, later deserted the Army, drifted from Texas to Utah and married Luzernia Allred. Do you have a picture of that guy?

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Feb. 19, 2009 8:15 a.m.

    Jerry - about the 1867-1867 comments I think you are nit-picking here. This was a typo. I meant 1857-1867. I think you knew that but chose to criticize anyway. When I read your reply I thought you had made a typo and was trying to respectfully point out what I thought was a correction.

    As for your age 27 (1867) comment, yes I can count. William Long stated his age as 27 when he was married in 1894, this would calculate his birth year as 1867, hence: "age 27 (1867)."

    Now, to Dyslexia Bob: Column 1, page B8 of the Utah section fourth paragraph down of the printed edition it says: "Oct 24, 1910." In the context of this article, and the previous one in December, this "typo" would make it appear that the shooting incident occurred after Jerry claims that Sundance returned from So. America which is a misrepresentation and needs a correction from the News. If it was a typo, and not intentional, then the copy editor should have caught it. You seem very adept at catching errors.

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 19, 2009 8:30 a.m.

    Bob
    How about his militray record while your at it. Lets see thtt

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 19, 2009 8:57 a.m.


    The books that have been written by the so-called experts are full of reported evidence that supports their opinions. The only way the public can verify what these people have written is true is get the alleged authentic records themselves. These so called experts know the public will not go to the expense and effort to do that. I did go take the effort and spent the money to acquire the records that actually existed. I discovered the experts have distorted and ignored what the records state. And some of the their sources records do not exist such as the three 1901 South American documents.

    There are other records that are off limits for pier review because they are private family records. How convenient. I will make my family available for pier review if they make their records available.

    They know we will never see the actual records ourselves and they have assumed until now they can get away with.

    I challenge them PRODUCE THOSE RECORDS for pier review.

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 19, 2009 9:04 a.m.

    If the experts had to prove their case in a court of law, they would do a little jail time.

  • Granny T.
    Feb. 19, 2009 9:32 a.m.

    Bottom line is that the "Outlaws", Butch and Sundance", robbed and plundered and then spent the money on booze and women. Kind of like today when cheesy druggies rob banks to support their heroine addiction. Not really a pretty picture or story but Robert Redford and Paul Newman were very good looking 'in the day' and had great sense of humors. So we continue to build the legend and stories that make them and what they did OK. I love the stories too but then I liken them to the robbers now and get a much different feeling.

  • Marilyn Grace
    Feb. 19, 2009 11:22 a.m.

    How Fun! Jerry Nickle, Mike Karr, Dr. John McCullough and yours truly have solved the mystery. We have the science and you cannot argue with science. We will continue to update you. Thanks to Etta, Diann, Jerry, Gaylen, Betty, Yvonne, and all the family members that have helped us solve the mystery. There is more to come. Thank you Geoff for doing such a great job of telling the facts of the story. It is my wish and prayer that everyone will stop fighting and start loving the fact that two families will come together that never knew they existed. Florence Viola Long and Evinda Ann Long never knew who their grandparents were or any of their relatives. They are the lost children on the Longabaugh geneology. Now they have roots and so do their children and grandchildren. Family! That is really what this is all about! Not fighting! The Florence Viola letter asks, who is my father? He was the Sundance Kid!

    Much Love and respect,

    On behalf of Jerry Nickle the Executive Producer, Mike Karr the Producer / Director, and Dr. John McCullough the Forensic Anthropologist.

    Marilyn Grace
    Creative Executive Producer of the "Sundance Kid" documentary.

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 19, 2009 11:55 a.m.

    LDS in Tn
    Please understand my credibility is at stake here and it is priceless, I don't have much to worry about though.
    Jerry
    .

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 19, 2009 2:19 p.m.

    Ghosttown Bob,
    Lets see if youve done the research? Julia Ann Long Parkers daughter died in Salt Lake City, Utah.
    Can you tell me what her name was?

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Feb. 19, 2009 2:49 p.m.

    To Gaylen concerning your "facts"

    Fact # 1 No dispute here - all well are established.
    Fact # 2 Since I have never seen said picture I cannot comment on it except, does this picture still exist? How is it identified as Samanna & Emma Longabaugh? Does it say so on the picture? Or are we taking your word for it? Are they little or grown up??? Thanks for making such an unsubstantiated statement.
    Fact # 3 False: Samanna's daughters were Adella, Emma, and Bertha, not Elva, Viola and???
    Fact # 4 So?? So Harry Longabaugh had a nephew named William Henry, so did at least 100,000 other people in the 1900 census, what does that prove? They are all related to William Long?
    Fact # 5 the "Sundance Kid" was an alias for Harry Longabaugh. Now, where have I heard this before?

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 19, 2009 4:56 p.m.

    You do like to nit pick. The outlaws generally picked an alias that was associated with something or someplace or someone they knew. Harry Longabaugh was in jail in Sundance Wyoming. Harvey Logans used the alias Kid Curry: his mentor was George Curry. Butch Cassidy was a Butcher for a time; Mike Cassidy was the first outlaw he followed.

    William Henry Longabaugh was Harry longabaughs nephew. Isnt it an amazing coincidence our William Henry Long used practically the same name and was an outlaw? (I am still waiting for you to connect your William Henry Long to ours. Please hurry) Harry Longabaughs niece was Florence the daughter of Harrys brother Harvey. We do not have a Florence in our genealogy at all before Florence Viola, Bill Longs daughter. Another coincidence

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 19, 2009 5:02 p.m.

    Bob
    You do like to nit pick.
    The outlaws generally picked an alias that was associated with something or someplace or someone they knew. Harry Longabaugh was in jail in Sundance Wyoming. Harvey Logans used the alias Kid Curry: his mentor was George Curry. Butch Cassidy was a Butcher for a time; Mike Cassidy was the first outlaw he followed.

    William Henry Longabaugh was Harry longabaughs nephew. Isnt it an amazing coincidence our William Henry Long used practically the same name and was an outlaw? (I am still waiting for you to connect your William Henry Long to ours. Please hurry) Harry Longabaughs niece was Florence the daughter of Harrys brother Harvey. We do not have a Florence in our genealogy at all before Florence Viola, Bill Longs daughter. Another coincidence

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 19, 2009 6:34 p.m.

    Ghosttown Bob,
    Perhaps Julias daughter was to hard. Lets try this one, Henry S. and Julia Long Parker of Cheyenne, Laramie County, Wyoming had two grandchildren, who died in Salt Lake City, Utah, within the last twenty years. If you cant name them, then you have not done the necessary research needed to make the claim that William Long deserted the Army in 1893, roamed around the West a few years, eventually ending up in Utah.
    Census Fact: 1860 census: There where 88 William Longs born between 1850 and 1860, in Pennsylvania, there where 605 William Longs nationally. 1870 census: There were 89 William Longs born between 1855 and 1865, in Pennsylvania, there were 607 William Longs nationally. 1880 census: There where 797 William Longs born between 1865 and 1875 nationally, 113 in Pennsylvania.

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 19, 2009 6:47 p.m.

    Bob
    Bob
    #1 No dispute here.

    #2 Are we supossed to take your word for it that your William Henry Long was our William Henry Long without documentation?

    #3 Two of Samannas daughters were named Emma ELVA and Bertha VIOLA. Why did you leave the names Elva and Viola of your post? Did you do that intentionally? Those names are not in our family genealogy. They are longabaugh family names. Why did Bill Long name his daughter Florence Viola, both Longabaugh family names? Why did he name his granddaughter Elva, another Longabaugh family name? Why did he himself use a Longabaugh family name? Dont you recognize the amazing coincidence? Or did he use those names intentionally?
    The experts have distorted and played similar games with the Pinkerton files.

    #4 Yes your right there were thousands of William Henrys Including your and ours, two different men

    #5You probably heard Sundance Kid was the alias for Harry Longabaugh here first.

    Come on do a little better
    Jerry

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 19, 2009 9:27 p.m.

    I have received several emails asking if we have the results of the DNA tests yet. We do not have the results yet.
    Jerry

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Feb. 20, 2009 7:53 a.m.

    Jerry (Anonymous): I don't know what Florence has to do with all of this. I would think you would be more interested in finding out what happened to Julia Ann and finding her obituary. Oh, by the way, if we are playing the family name game William Long's niece was Florence too, what a coincidence, Oh and wait, Julia's middle name was Ann, wow, another coincidence. Oh, and another one, in the 1900 census there were 76950 Violas and 16799 Elvas, they must all be related too. I don't see how any of this has to do with connecting William Long with Harry Longabaugh, either you have the evidence or you don't. Your the one that has to prove the relationship.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Feb. 20, 2009 7:58 a.m.

    Jerry: Hey did you hear that Donna Ernst's new book is coming out on Sunday? It might be interesting to see what she has to say. I understand that she sides with you that Harry Longabaugh was not involved with the Belle Fourche robbery. It might be interesting to see what her reasoning is.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Feb. 20, 2009 8:06 a.m.

    #1 No dispute here
    #2 You expect me to take Gaylen's word without documentation, where's your's?
    #3 Middle names for children who died at birth, how convenient.
    #4 And your point? Name association is a game.
    #5 The use of the Alias of "Sundance Kid" for Harry Longabaugh has been around longer than you have been, but using that alias for William Long, well now that is recent.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Feb. 20, 2009 8:33 a.m.

    Now about the DNA results, Marilyn should never have said that you'all had "solved the mystery" and "We have the science and you cannot argue with science." Jerry, you don't have the results of the DNA tests yet. You do not have the science.My sources tell me that poor Dr. McCullough was unable to get enough Y-chromosome DNA to make a direct match. So now the family is scrambling around trying to locate female descendants of the Longabaugh family willing to give DNA sample for mitochondrial DNA testing. Of course this is going to be extremely difficult since all of Longabaugh's nieces either died without children. The may have to go back to the 1700's to trace someone down.

    Now just how much DNA did Dr. McCullough need for a Y-Chromosome test. Sorensen will do as little as an 11 marker test. A skull, a femur, or whatever else Dr. McCullough took out this last time wasn't enough? This seems like inconclusive results to me. Or were they negative?? Which by the way I predicted back on Dec. 18th.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 20, 2009 9:35 a.m.

    Ghosttown Bob | 7:58 a.m. Feb. 20, 2009
    Gillespie and Gooldy

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 20, 2009 10:24 a.m.

    You have no idea what we are doing.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 20, 2009 10:35 a.m.

    Ghosttown Bob,
    I see no difference between your claim that you can prove William Long of Fayette County, Pennsylvania and William Henry Long of Duchesne, Utah are one and the same, and Jerry Nickles claim, that William Henry Long of Duchesne, Utah and Harry Longabaugh are one and the same, unless you feel Harry Longabaugh has celebrity status, because of the published articles that have been written about Harry Longabaugh. When you posted/published your article about William Long on the blog, your William Long of Fayette County, Pennsylvania, therefore achieved the same celebrity status, and just as Mr. Nickle is obligated to provide proof, you are also, now obligated by your claim to provide proof.
    Either you have the evidence or you don't. Your the one that has to prove the relationship.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 20, 2009 11:10 a.m.

    Ghosttown Bob, doesnt know what the hes talking about. He concocted a story about William Long based solely on the 1880 census and the Army records for William Long. From the 1860 census he found they were living in Fayette County, Pennsylvania. Figured by placing William Long in Wyoming it makes his story more believable. All hes trying to do is discredit Nickle. No matter what the DNA results say, they are laying the ground work to create doubt, they must be worried. Can you imagine what will happen if the DNA comes back positive.

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 20, 2009 12:46 p.m.


    Bob
    Anonymous has discovered your army deserter was not Bill Long as you hoped. Sorry. So try again. Let me help you
    Dan Buck made some very important discoveries that show Butch and Sundance were not killed in Bolivia. He found the Aramayo robbers that were killed at San Vacente and exhumed their remains for a scientific examination. The robbers were not Butch and Sundance. One was Enrique B. Hutcheon (Buck 269) and the other was Gustave Zimmer. They both died of gunshots. (Buck302). With Mr Bucks discoveries and the Pinkerton files (Memo dated Mar 22, 1909 and memo dated mar 26, 1910) we know Butch and Sundance returned home to the United States. Mr. Buck deserves a pat on the Back for his discoveries. Thank you Mr. Buck.
    Bob, because your deserter has failed you, here is a list of suggestions for you to discover where Sundance went and what identity he assumed.

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 20, 2009 12:47 p.m.

    1We know this person rode with Butch Cassidy. Try and find some document that mentions Butch Cassidy and someone else that was associated Butch. This narrows your research considerably. Newspaper articles are good sources.
    #2. Look for a person that used an alias. Research the alias to see if it is a dead end. This is the first thing you want to do.
    #3 If this person was Sundance he would have tried to hide his real identity and thats why you found a dead end.
    #4 Determine if the alias he used had a relationship to someplace or somebody in Sundancess history, maybe his Longabaugh family. Research his descendants to see if their names have a connection.
    #5 If this person had a picture of Sammana and Emma Longabaugh hanging on his living room wall or someone he believed was Sammana and Emma. That would be very good.

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 20, 2009 12:48 p.m.

    #6 Try and find his obituary and see if there is a connection there. Maybe it will mention Wyoming or better yet the Big Basin of Wyoming. Of course we know Butch and Sundance were very familiar with Wyoming and the Big Hole Basin.
    #7 Search for a document that would show he was born in 1867 like Sundance was. If your candidate was born in early part of 1867, that would be even better because we know Sundance was a 1867 spring baby.
    #8 If there is a photograph of your subject and it resembles Sundance thats very good.
    #9 Interview the subjects family and find out if they believe he was an outlaw that rode with Butch Cassidy and if they have any outlaw stories. Maybe some of the family is mentioned in Kellys book such as Jerry Jackson on page 150.

    This is just a partial list of suggestions. I could possibly give more if you would like.
    No need to thank me I am glad to do it.
    Maybe your sidekick expert will come out from hiding and help you.

    Sincerely Yours
    Jerry

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 20, 2009 1:12 p.m.

    Sundance was not one of Belle Fourche bank robbers so Donna Ernst is correct. I received a notice this morning they shipped my copy. I hope this one comes autographed like the last one did. Maybe this one will have my name not some cousin I dont even know. I hope this new interest in Sundance, I have created, will help Donna Ernsts book sales. When the documentary is released that should help her book sales too.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Feb. 20, 2009 1:20 p.m.

    Ahh Anonymous you seem to know so much, even what I am thinking. I think you ought to do a stage show. You can call yourself the "Great Anon Y Mouse." Now, seriously, I came on here after Jerry came out saying that all he wanted to do was help his family find their roots. Which I gather is originally what some of his Aunts were interested in. I have given a plausible case of who William Long was in hopes of helping the family. Now all of this vitriol comes out because certain family members are hoping to make a bundle of cash and fame over this. Now I am not particularly opposed to this if they can prove their case, but they haven't, and I don't think they will. Their case relies solely on the DNA evidence which appears to have some of the family worried, otherwise why the mad dash for a mitochondrial DNA test? Everything else is only conjecture. Anonymous, by attacking me you are diverting attention from the main issue.

    We've been down this same road before with Hiram Beebe and Harry Longabaugh Jr.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Feb. 20, 2009 1:38 p.m.

    Jerry, I know you won't believe it, but I agree with you when you said: "The experts have distorted and played similar games with the Pinkerton files." This has been going on for quite some time. Yes I personally know of misrepresentations of both the Pinkerton files and of some other sources that have been used. This seems to have been standard practice of some researchers in earlier days in an attempt to protect their sources. These misrepresentations have been subsequently passed down as fact. Maybe after this has all calmed down and decided one way or the other we can get together and collaborate on a project that I have been working on, which you have given me a great idea of a title for. I think I will title it: "The Odd Case of Butch, Sundance, and the Wild Bunch: The use and misuse of the of the Pinkerton Detective Files."

  • Cats
    Feb. 20, 2009 2:28 p.m.

    Dan Buck is the guy I talked to a few years ago who was so sure that Butch and Sundance died in Bolivia. He was also the one who thought that Butch's sister was lying, or at least wrong, about her brother returning to the U.S. Is that true that he has now changed his position? Does he now believe that Butch did return to the U.S.? If so, that is quite a change from the position he took when I spoke to him. He said that even though the bodies they exumed weren't Butch and Sundance, he believed they were still there buried somewhere in that cemetary.

    I stated in an earlier blog that I met an old professor at Dixie who was from Circleville who told me that he knew FOR A FACT that Butch was buried on the Parker Ranch near Circleville. I believed his story and at that time felt that Buck was so married to his position that they had been killed in South America that he wasn't willing to even believe Parker family members.

    I'm hoping for positive DNA results.

  • Jerry Nicckle
    Feb. 20, 2009 4:02 p.m.

    Cats
    Dan Buck never admitted the persons he dug were the Aramago robbers. I wanted to give him a little of his own medicine by distorting what his book stated like he does the Pinkerton files. Even though I believe he did actually dig up the Aramago robbers. Both men were killed by gunshot (Buck 302)and a locale pointed out the grave as the robbers. Buck dug up those graves because he believed they were the Aramago robbers, which I believe they actually were. I was also hoping to draw him out of hiding so he would correct my distortions but it didnt work. Why is he running from me?

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 20, 2009 5:14 p.m.

    I just received my copy of Donna Ernsts new book. It doesnt have her autograph like the last one did. And then I opened to the forward YIKES it is written by Dan Buck. It took me few moments to regain my senses before I could continue on.

  • Cats
    Feb. 20, 2009 5:16 p.m.

    Jerry,

    I'm obviously not in the loop the way you are. Is Buck blogging on this?

    I spoke to him a few years ago when I was living in Washington. At the time he was an aide on one of the committees in the House. Butch and Sundance seemed to be his avocation. I had seen the PBS documentary about forensics in South America and found it fascinating. But, I told him that Butch did come back to Utah because his sister had said so, but wouldn't reveal where he was buried.

    Buck's claim was that she wasn't telling the truth and that other family members didn't agree with her statements. He claimed she just said all of this to sell her book. I noticed that on a later documentary by KUED he seemed to soften his position claiming that she might have "believed" she had seen him. My personal belief is that she knew whether or not she saw her brother. I also believe her motives were pure that she wanted everyone to know that he was not a hero, but a hunted man the rest of his life.

  • Cats
    Feb. 20, 2009 5:25 p.m.

    Part II

    I believe that Buck doesn't understand the motivations of people here in Utah. He had a very cynical point of view that was not warranted. I believe Butch's sister told the truth.

    The man I met in St. George (can't remember his name) is, or was, a professor of family counseling at Dixie. I met him about 6-7 years ago--he was in his seventies. He had known the Parker family as a child and used to go horseback riding with Butch's brothers who were older men at the time.

    When I told him what Buck had said, his reaction was amusement. He told me that Butch never even went to South America. He said that he knew for a fact that he was buried on the Parker Ranch. As I said in an earlier blog, when a construction project went across the ranch and machinery was digging trenches, the whole Parker family ran down and stood on a piece of ground in front of the machinery and refused to allow them to dig. He said that's when everyone in town knew where Butch was buried.

    I thought he was credible.

  • Fred
    Feb. 20, 2009 5:48 p.m.

    Hey, Ghosttown Bob, Do you know all the names of the Ghost towns in Utah? I was wondering if you knew which ghost towns that the Sundance kid and Butch Cassidy hung out in during their life time?

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Feb. 21, 2009 7:35 a.m.

    Gillespie and Gooldy - - if your going down that road you took the wrong exit

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Feb. 21, 2009 7:38 a.m.

    Jerry - What?? you didn't know that Dan Buck had written the forward to Donna's Book? It was in all of the advanced publicity.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Feb. 21, 2009 7:44 a.m.

    Fred: Yes, I do know every ghost town in Utah. I am not going play the guess the ghost town game with you, mainly because it has nothing to do with this subject at all. If you want information on ghost towns in Utah talk to me on a ghost town site.

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 21, 2009 10:58 a.m.

    Bob
    Bob
    No I did not read the advanced publicly so Dan Bucks writing of the forward was a complete surprise. This is what happened. When I received the book I looked to see if it had been autographed for me, which it had not been. When I flipped through the pages with list of chapters and illustration I came to the forward. When I saw Dan Buck had written it I nearly fainted. After I regained my composure I flipped to the introduction skipping the forward completely.

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 21, 2009 11:03 a.m.

    Bob
    Will you please tell me the name of the Ghost Town site you refer to? I would like to go there and join the discussion.

  • Kid
    Feb. 21, 2009 12:18 p.m.

    Ghosttown Bob,
    The road to Belle Fourche starts here.
    The "wedding" photo of Mr. and Mrs. Harry Place: A copy was mailed by Sundance to his friend David Gillespie back in Wyoming, in a letter stating that this was his wife who he had met on a previous trip to Texas. (Donna Ernst, Sundance Kin Web Page)

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 21, 2009 12:43 p.m.

    What?? you didn't know that Dan Buck had written the forward to Donna's Book? It was in all of the advanced publicity.

    And this adds what?

  • Randall
    Feb. 21, 2009 1:05 p.m.

    For The Third and Final Time...Butch & The Kid were "Reported" Grazing at the Oakley Polar King last July 4th Rodeo...
    Still Chasing Your "Tale's"?

  • LDS in TN
    Feb. 21, 2009 1:56 p.m.

    Jerry and anyone else reading.

    Just consider this. Everyone is so concerned about making their own point and being right. But.

    What will happen to everyone's credibility if they have bet on Long not being Longabaugh and then forensic evidence indicates otherwise?

    Historians have long had to face the possibility and probability of being proven wrong. The good ones live with it and move along.

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 21, 2009 1:59 p.m.

    Will you please tell me which publications had the advanced publicity and when?

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 21, 2009 3:13 p.m.

    It may be a good thing, that Mrs. Ernst has a new book out. I presume it is about Mr. Longabaugh. It should give her a chance to make a few corrections, that have been pointed out to me, that were in her "My Uncle" book. It should be noted, as I have not had the pleasure of reading the "Uncle" book, I can only state what was reportedly said in her book.

    Among a "few" noted errors, the following I thought was the most note worthy and shall we say, humerous. Reportedly on page 74, there are numerous comments regarding his abilities and speed with a gun. It reportedly says "HE USED A SINGLE SHOT COLT 45 ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY," Not being a gun expert, even I detect something wrong with the above statement regarding Sundance's gun of choice. Using a "single shot" weapon, would seem to me to have put the "Kid" at somewhat of a disadvantage.

    I am sure some of you are more knowledgeable about this than I and would care to comment.

  • AC
    Feb. 21, 2009 4:04 p.m.

    Having read Mrs. Ernst's book about her "Uncle", I had to laugh at the comment in a previous posting pointing out what was reportedly said on page 74, of "Uncle". I will tell you, is is not "reportedly" said, as one of our noted historians likes to report, it is actually there.

    If I may also be allowed to direct your attention to (my favorite) bit of information, which is a statement she makes on page 59. Here she is sharing what she knows about Mr. Harvey Logan (aka Kid Curry) Please allow me to quote, "he had a ranch in Landusky, Montana with some of his cousins. His cousins included Lonnie,Johnny,and Henry Logan."

    I do believe she has the names correct. Cousins? Were they not, in fact, his brothers?

    In closing, as anyone actually seen a "single shot" Colt .45?

    AC

  • Dang good
    Feb. 21, 2009 5:29 p.m.

    This is one dang good article.

    Thanks Ghosttown Bob, CATS & Jerry Nickles for some dang good comments. You guys are my soul pals.

    I also hope to learn more about the Sundance kid and old Butch Cassidy. see ya later 8>)

  • I Wonder
    Feb. 21, 2009 7:01 p.m.

    It seems from what we are seeing here, there are no standards, rules, code of ethics, or anything that requires these authors of "History" to deal in and only publish factual, verified information.

    Does the line between "History" and fiction even exist anymore? If we are asked to pay our money to purchase a book about "History", should it not contain factual, accurate information? I would hope so.

    I W

  • Randall
    Feb. 22, 2009 11:53 a.m.

    Just Like Butch & The Kid.
    I've Spent Most Of My Money Gambling & On Women And Booze.
    The Rest Of It I Just Waisted.

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 23, 2009 11:22 a.m.

    I Wonder
    It is being an accessory to forgery by those who have the responsibility to verify.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Feb. 25, 2009 2:22 p.m.

    "Anonymous has discovered your army deserter was not Bill Long as you hoped" Hah! what a laugh. He has found no such thing. He does not know what he is talking about. Tracking down Florence Parker, or Marshall Parker's kids have little or nothing to do with finding "Grandpa Bill." Both Anonymous and Jerry seem to know little of genealogical or family history research. In any genealogical investigation one always works from the known to the unknown, not making theories, and then trying to prove them right. using their kind of logic I can connect myself to both Jesse James, and to the Queen of England, and my stories will sound just as good.

    The people that sound worried are Jerry and Co. What has it been now, two months and still no word on DNA results? Jerry, are you going to share the results, or is the "family" trying to "massage" the results. You do know that with a Y-Chromosome test the match has to be 100%. Anything less will be proof that William Long is not Harry Longabaugh.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 26, 2009 6:08 a.m.

    Ghosttown Bob, You totally failed the Parker/Long ( Florence Parker, or Marshall Parker's kids) genealogical test, it took you a week to find the answer to a simple family history research question, that any genealogical investigator should have known, before stating that he knows with certainty that the individual hes researching (William Long) is who he claims he was. Good genealogical or family history research includes all family members. Given another week, you might discover what Julia, William and Minnie Longs mothers maiden name was. In any genealogical investigation one always works from the known to find the unknown.
    What does William Long of Fayette County, Pennsylvania have to do with finding "Grandpa Bill?" Absolutely Nothing. Based on hard evidence, we the public will make the final decision on whether William Henry Long was Harry Longabaugh. The burden lies solely with Mr. Nickle providing substantial and convincing evidence.
    Bob, if I were you, Id never publish anything about western outlaws, I dont think you can handle the criticism.

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 26, 2009 8:52 a.m.

    FREE FREE FREE FREE
    THE PINKERTON FILES.

    As a public service I will FAX the relevant twenty Pinkerton memos and reports to any interested parties. These documents include all the Pinkerton references used by the Butch Cassidy historians since Charles Kelly and James Horan. You will see how the authors of the last few years have massaged and misused these reports. You will get the two separate memos showing Butch was in Utah in Feb 1909 and March 1909 after the killing of the Aramayo payroll robbers at San Vicente on Nov 6, 1908.

    Contact me from my web site. Do a search for Jerry Nickle Sundance Kid.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Feb. 26, 2009 10:04 a.m.

    Anonymous, You are mistaken. Did you not read my reply on Feb 20th at 7:53am? I said quote: I don't know what Florence has to do with all of this." This was posted the very next time I was on the board, which was the morning after your post. Yes, I passed your silly little test. I, for one do not spend all of my spare time on this comment board like some people apparently do. By the way, did you ever find Julia Ann Long Parker's obituary? It has been almost a week now and you have not found it. By your own logic you have failed the "genealogical test" of your own making. Oh, by the way did you know that, according to family, Julia's, William's, and Minnie's mothers middle name was Ann, (Wow! William Long of Wayne County mother's name was Ann!!), my, what a coincidence, or did you chose not to reveal that because it helps destroy your theory>

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Feb. 26, 2009 10:29 a.m.

    Anonymous: Now about your other statements in your 6:08 am post - The public does not make the final decision on whether William Henry Long was Harry Longabaugh or not. Either the two are the same, or they are not. DNA testing can prove that, otherwise Jerry would not have gone to the trouble or expense for the test. Lacking any DNA proof, then everything else is based on documentation with credible sources. "family tradition", "secret family files," or speculation just does not cut it. Manipulating sources for your own ends does not cut it. Too much of this has been going on, on all sides if this Butch and Sundance thing for years, hence Jerry's willingness to share his copies of the Pinkerton files. I applaud him for it.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 26, 2009 11:34 a.m.

    Ghosttown Bob,
    I have newspaper articles, Obituaries, Death certificates. Julia, William and Minnies mothers name was Mary Jane -------. Born in Fayette County, Pennsylvania. Julia Ann Long was born in Allegheny County, Pennsylvania. Julia Ann Long Parkers husband was Henry S. Parker he was born in Keene, Cheshire, New Hampshire, he was wagon master at Camp Carlin. Julia Ann Long Parker died 25 Dec 1936. One of Julias grandsons was named after her brother William Long. Much, Much, More Ive done the research, what have you done Bob, Little Buck.

  • Curious....
    Feb. 26, 2009 11:56 a.m.

    This question is for Gaylen Robinson, What was Harry's mother's name....I am related on the step side and just have a few questions after hearing little bits and pieces of the story all my life.

  • AC
    Feb. 26, 2009 12:31 p.m.

    Little Buck.

    Does that not imply there is a "Big Buck"?

    It was reportedly said, BB has, shall we say. folded.

    AC

  • Double Eagle
    Feb. 26, 2009 1:04 p.m.

    Ghosttown Bob,
    Obviously youre in Dan Bucks camp, perhaps Little Buck fits, youd have us believe that Butch and Sundance both died in South America without any DNA. Whats the difference, do you not hold Dan Buck to the same proof positive, as you insist, Jerry Nickle must provide.

  • AC
    Feb. 26, 2009 1:25 p.m.

    "do you not hold Dan Buck to the same proof positive, as you insist, Jerry Nickle must provide."

    With all due respect DE, when was dbuck ever held resposible for anything he said/wrote? Come on! On second thought though, he does claim he was successful. We don't want to hear that song again.

    AC

  • Just Lookin
    Feb. 26, 2009 1:38 p.m.

    Let me get this straight.

    We want to hold Mr. Buck resposible for:

    1 Finding Mr. Zimmer

    2 His "reported" information by a Parker family member.

    3 The accuracy of his (phone call??) with, was it Mrs. Charter? To be honest he changed that story more than a diaper, so I am not real sure, who he claims he talked with.

    4 What he never said about Mrs. Betenson?

    JL

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Feb. 26, 2009 3:04 p.m.

    Jerry: Sure I would like a copy of the above mentioned Pinkerton memos, etc. I would like to compare them to my little stack. If I have anything different than you, I will be glad to share them with you.

    My only problem, I was on your site, but I am still unsure on how to contact you. Do I just send and email to jerrynickle@....(yourwebsite)?

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 26, 2009 5:54 p.m.

    Bob
    Do you have the hand written memo dated April 3, 1902?

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    Feb. 27, 2009 8:48 a.m.

    Some irresistable compulsion made me come back and review all of the comments. They have slowly degenerated into unwarranted attacks rather than a sharing of information. Many years ago, I found that one may very often learn more by sharing information. The attacks on Dan are unwarranted. Over the past ten years or so, I found that he was always willing to share and has not, at least with me, ever claimed to have an exclusive path to truth. The claim that anyone would "fake" evidence is outrageous and reflects more on the one making such allegations than on Dan.

  • Bob Jayne
    Feb. 27, 2009 10:55 a.m.

    Just finished the new book by Harv Murdock, THE EDUCATED OUTLAW. Harv is the Grandson of Elzy Lay. The book is not only full of information, but Mr. Murdock's style of writing is unique, compared to some of the other history writers. Mr. Murdock shares what he knows. Doesn't try to tell us how much he knows. A very enjoyable, down to earth book. Only complaint: it ended too quickly.

    Bob Jayne

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 27, 2009 12:11 p.m.

    The attacks on Dan are unwarranted.

    Horse C C has described what makes for a good horse race. A difference of opinion.

    The track record of your Mr. Buck is very well known HCC. His way of dealing with those who do not buy his theory! We gain nothing by repeating that here. Get a grip HorseCC. Let us deal in reality. You know, things like facts. If you aren't aware of (or choose to ignore) Mr. Buck's many, many documented attacks (his very questionable, reported facts??) good luck in the third grade.

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 27, 2009 12:48 p.m.

    Horse Creek Cowboy


    In Bucks book on 37 he states Sundance and Etta visited the hospital in Buffalo New York before Feb 1, 1901. For his documentation he uses a Pinkerton memo dated April 3, 1902. I have that Pinkerton memo and it states they visited the hospital in Buffalo in the summer of 1901. Why did he misquote that memo?

    The Pinkerton history #1497 of Butch Cassidy states the last part of May 1901 Butch was near Wilcox Arizona on his way to Globe Arizona to get his mail.
    In 1907 William Pinkerton said Butch and Sundance were at the Wagner train robbery on July 3, 1901. On page 49 in Bucks book he states there is a document showing they were in Argentina on that very day. The Pinkerton history #1961 for Harry Longabaugh states he was in Price and Vernal Utah on his way to Baggs Wyoming in July 1901.

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 27, 2009 12:49 p.m.


    Dan Buck has discovered three documents that show Butch and Sundance were in Argentina in 1901. One of these documents was for a purchase of some horses on June 11, 1901. There is also a document showing they registered for a cattle brand In October 1901. Ernst 137. Both of these documents Buck referred as authentic in the other blog.

    They cannot be in the USA and Argentina at the same time.
    I charge these Argentine documents used by Dan Buck are forgeries. He has the responsibility to verify all document and this failure has destroyed his credibility.
    If I am wrong please show me where.


  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 27, 2009 1:06 p.m.

    Horse Creek Cowboy.
    You are obviously familiar with this subject so I would like your opinion on another Argentine document.
    Buck has referred to a newly discovered article that was published April 17, 1912, in the Buenos Aires Standard, as authentic. You can read this article in Ernsts new book pages 188-198.
    I believe this is another forgery, which Buck has called authentic. I cannot see how anyone would not call this document a forgery.
    Please read it and lets discuss this document here and hope you can show me where I am wrong.

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 27, 2009 2:03 p.m.

    Curious
    Are you a descendant of Luzernia Allred and Silas Morrell?

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 27, 2009 2:43 p.m.


    Yes I did read THE EDUCATED OULLAW by Harvey Murdock. On page 3 Murdock tells the story of his meeting and spending some time with Lula Bentenson. Murdock stated She was in her nineties and sharp as a tack.

    In Robert Redfords book THE OUTLAW TRAIL he tells of meeting and spending some time with ninety four year old Lula. He found her to spry, witty strong-willed, with a gentle feminine sprit that warmed you. Redford further states he was struck by her beauty even at this age. She is tall and elegant, a proud person who enjoys living And her mind is thirty years or younger.

    Dan Buck has never met Lula and he said she had a deteriorated mind. That is absolutely outrages and he should make a public apology to the family

  • AC
    Feb. 27, 2009 3:45 p.m.

    "Dan Buck has never met Lula and he said she had a deteriorated mind. That is absolutely outrages and he should make a public apology to the family"

    Mr. Buck will unearth Robin Hood before he is man enough to stand up and be accountable (let alone offer his apology) for what he has said about many others, especially Lula Parker Betenson. I understand he even denied, what he actuall said in a one on one at a meeting a few years ago. And you want an apology? Good luck.

    AC

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 27, 2009 4:00 p.m.

    Horse Creek Cowboy
    You have seen on this blog how little Buck tried to discredit me with a fake document.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    Feb. 28, 2009 8:43 a.m.

    Jerry:

    The point is that even if we disagree with someone, we may remain civil and not engage in name calling. I have disagreed with Dan on some points, but we have remained civil. Name calling only begets more name calling. One does not prove something, by disproving someone else.

    History should be written from primary sources, not secondary sources. No one currently alive can prove who was present at the various robberies here or in South America. We can only disprove and the disproof must rely on secondary sources of which the Pinkerton files were rife. Buck and Meadows have done all of us a great service by focusing on primary documents. Quite frankly, I am surprized that Dan would even be willing to engage in discussion when he is belittled, made fun of and assailed.

    As for me, I am still looking for Harvey Logan. There is only one thing I am sure of, he was not Tap Duncan.

  • AC
    Feb. 28, 2009 10:20 a.m.

    "Name calling only begets more name calling. ((One does not prove something, by disproving someone else.))"-----No truer words were ever spoken! An extremely clear picture of what Buck has been trying to do for a number of years. Well said HCC. A perfect example to back your comments, his stating Mrs. Betenson's mind was corroded due to her age. Shall we say, that was 100% incorrect. But what she said, Buck doesn't like and you know what that leads to!

    "Buck and Meadows have done all of us a great service by focusing on primary documents"-------- Hmmmm. Such as what Mr. Parker's niece "reportedly" said. Or the "accuracy" of his "phone call" to, was it Mrs. Charter. Or his writing to Dora Flack, to see if Dora thought Lula was a liar. There are more, many more. Up to now, most cowboys I have known were rather serious fellows.

    Bottom line HCC, Buck will do and say anything to make himself look right.

    AC

  • Retired Judge
    Feb. 28, 2009 11:39 a.m.

    I am not sure, that pointing out the improper actions of an individual, when factual, can be called "attacking". Seems to me the comments do not have a political twist, just an attempt to see some fairness done. Maybe wishful thinking, hopefully it is not too late to try.

    Wasn't there a, "do unto others as you would have others do unto you" or words similiar? Sounds better than "attack" any day.

    RJ

  • Randall
    Feb. 28, 2009 11:59 a.m.

    Let's All Meet At The Oakley Polar King This July 4th Rodeo and Wait For The Next Reported Sighting.

  • Gaylen Robison
    Feb. 28, 2009 12:10 p.m.

    To Curious
    According to a pedigree chart, Harry Alonzo Longabaugh's mother's name is Annie G. Place. She was born 27 Sept. 1828. She died 18 May, 1887.
    Hope this helps you friend.

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 28, 2009 12:11 p.m.

    Horse Creek Cowboy

    I hope we can engage in a civil discussion as you do. I recognize Dan Bucks contributions
    Those three 1901 Argintina documents can be shown as being faked by using Charlie Siringo the best primary source there is. After the Tipton robbery on Aug 29, 1900 the Pinkerton detective agency assigned detective Charles Siringo to the case. He was ordered to go to Alma New Mexico where Butch had spent the previous winter believing Butch might have returned there. He got a tip that two of the robbers, Ben Killpatrick and Kid Curry, went through Grand Junction Colorado so he went there and followed their trail. South of Grand Junction Siringo met a rancher who recognized a photograph of Kid Curry At the Carlisle ranch near Monticelo Utah the ranch manager told Siringo the two outlaws had passed through saying they were going to where the climate fit their cloths. The manager said he believed they meant Arizona or New Mexico as the cloths they were wearing were to light for the winter. (Siringo 339-342)

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 28, 2009 12:19 p.m.

    Following the outlaws trail Siringo lost it in the deep snow near Bluff City Utah. (Siringo 346) This was winter so it had to have been November or December 1900. Because of the snow Siringo then went back north to Hanksville where he received orders to go to Circleville Utah Where Butchs family lived to see what he could discover there. On his way to Circleville he had to take another detour because of snow. Siringo 348. From Circleville he was ordered to go to Alma New Mexico. When he arrived in Alma he discovered Butch was not there so Siringo left and was soon in Frisco New Mexico. In

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 28, 2009 12:20 p.m.

    Frisco Siringo discovered Butch and eight other outlaws were then camped forty miles southwest of Frisco where Butch had established a Robbers Roost or rendezvous. This had to have been Feb or March 1901. When spring came Butch broke camp and was seen near Wilcox Arizona in May 1901 by Pinkerton informant Blake Graham who knew Butch well.

    Those three 1901 Argintina document have been faked because Butch was not Argintina.
    I not accusing Dan Buck of being the guilty party but he has the responsibility to authenticate documents and he failed here.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    Feb. 28, 2009 3:22 p.m.

    Jerry,

    We all need to be careful in relying on Charlie. He wrote from memory and was known, perhaps, to change things to fit the story. Basicly, as I see it, The argument is that because he was in the US in the spring, he could not have been in Argentina. But the same can be taken the other way, because, he was busy applying in April for four square leagues of property at the land office, he could not have been in the US. We simply do not know. In the museum in Chubut is a receipt signed by Santiago Ryan. I am trying to get the date. Incidently, various newspaper reports are notorious for inaccuacy. The San Francisco Call reported, November 08, 1901, that Sundannce going under the name of J. W. Rose, were arrested in St. Louis. The Ogden Standard reported, Feb. 21, 1910, that Butch was in Argentina.
    "Forgery" is a strong word and I am glad you are receding from saying Dan did it.

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 28, 2009 6:41 p.m.

    HCC
    You are very well informed and I thank you for discussing this with me.

    Yes the argument is 1901. Butch was not in Argentina in April 1901 applying for land. He was there applying for land in April 1902. There is absolutely no Pinkerton documentation at all Butch was in Argentina in 1901 and the three 1901 Argentina documents showing he was there I believe are fakes. I am not accusing Dan Buck of creating these fakes documents, but I would not be surprised if Dan Bucks friend Tito Juarez was involved.

  • Jerry Nickle
    Feb. 28, 2009 7:13 p.m.

    HCC
    Is Michael Bell a friend of Dan Bucks. I would like to discuss his discovery too.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Feb. 28, 2009 9:40 p.m.

    I have been offline for a while, it seems my computer crashed right in the middle of a reply to Anonymous. It looks like I have missed a lot. Jerry: What fake document do you refer to? Are you accusing me or Dan Buck? I have not used any fake documents.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    Feb. 28, 2009 9:41 p.m.

    Randall,

    I like your idea. We are all taking ourselves too seriously. But do you have something against the Diner? Can you stay on for eight seconds? I am afraid that with age, I probably can't.

    In all seriousness, however, I have other commitments for the week. How do you look in pink for the 3rd?

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Feb. 28, 2009 9:52 p.m.

    Anonymous: I also have newspaper articles, Obituaries, and Death certificates. Julia, William and Minnies mothers name was Mary Jane according census; Mary Ann Stafford according to family sources. Born in either Fayette County, or Alleghany Co. Pennsylvania. Julia Ann Long was born in Allegheny County, Pennsylvania. Julia Ann Long Parkers husband was Henry S. Parker he was born in Keene, Cheshire, New Hampshire, he was wagon master at Camp Carlin. Julia Ann Long Parker died 25 Dec 1936. One of Julias grandsons was named after her brother William Long. I also have Much, Much, More I have done the research, what you are doing is trying to play catchup. You were completely unaware of this family before I mentioned it. You will always be one step behind.

    So what was Camp Carlin? Do you know? If William Long worked with his brother-in-law hauling freight, where would they have gone?

  • Ghosttown Bob
    Feb. 28, 2009 10:12 p.m.

    So has anyone other than Jerry read Donna Ernst's revision of her book? In her new section on Etta Place, she has Etta returning to New York in July of 1905 on the ship Seguranca. Signing the ship passenger list as Mrs. E. Place, complete with a copy of the actual list (page 156). H'mmm It seems she takes credit for this discovery, which is funny, since I was the one who gave her the tip on this. She also. She also tries to link Etta to an Ethel Matthews in Texas (page 176), I have corresponded with the person that did this research for her and she said that it came to a dead end. Again she gives no credit to the person doing the research. Too bad, Donna Ernst is wrong on both accounts. If she had shown a little more interest, I could have shown her just when and where both Sundance and Etta returned to the US and what may have become of Etta.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 28, 2009 10:17 p.m.

    Ghost town Bob
    You lost give it a break

  • Anonymous
    March 1, 2009 8:46 a.m.

    Ghosttown Bob,

    Thats very interesting, in every census, it clearly shows Mary J. Long or Mary Jane Long, on Julia Parkers death certificate it shows Mary Jane Stafford, at least one Parker family researcher agrees her name was Mary Jane Stafford. Yet you chose to suggest that according to family sources, her name was Mary Ann Stafford, a name, that conveniently fits your theory. Henry Sylvan Parker was a Frontier Contemporary of Buffalo Bill and was Located at Camp Carlin for Years. Camp Carlin was established in September 1867, as a supply depot between Fort D. A. Russell and the city of Cheyenne. Named after Capt. Elias B. Carling, Asst Quartermaster. Officially designated as Cheyenne Depot. The camp was abandoned in 1887, dismantled in 1890.
    Bob, I first started researching Mr. Nickels claim in 2004. William Long, of Fort A. D. Russell, was logically one of the first William Long I researched. Yes, I did revisit William Long after you made your claim, and there is nothing that I have found that would support your theory. Would you like to know what happened to Minnie Long? You always seem to be a week behind on your responses.

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 1, 2009 10:38 a.m.

    Donna Ernst
    In your book on page 132 you state on Feb 4, 1901 Butch purchased a beautiful gold watch for Etta for $40.10. Your source is an Email from Dan Buck. There is no documentation for this purchase. It never happened. You should not assume all of Dan Bucks information is factual.
    Dan
    If there is documentation for this purchase produce it for pier review.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    March 1, 2009 12:42 p.m.

    Camp Carlin was the supply station for the various forts to the north including Forts Fetterman and Laramie. It was located about twenty miles south of Horse Creek.

  • Anonymous
    March 1, 2009 4:26 p.m.

    "You should not assume all of Dan Bucks information is factual."

    Now that is trully a shock! Why would a comment like that be made?

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 1, 2009 5:26 p.m.

    Ghost Town Bob
    Congratulations.
    I believe you have found the only documentation for Etta Place other than what the Pinkerton files refer to. That is a great find and you deserve credit for it
    Thanks for sharing it.
    Jerry Nickle

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 2, 2009 7:40 a.m.

    Anonymous: I do believe I said in the Census her name was Mary Jane. As far as family sources: In the Ancestral File, which I consider family sources it states Mary Ann Stafford, but I think you already knew this.

    Go ahead and tell us about Minnie Long, I'm interested.

    HCC: thanks for the info on Camp Carlin. Yes, Camp Carlin was the supply depot for most of the Forts in Northern Wyoming and Montana, including the Big Horn Basin. All places William Long was apparently familiar with.

  • Anonymous
    March 2, 2009 8:27 a.m.

    Ghosttown Bob,
    The informant on the death certificate for Julia Ann Long Parker was her son M. A. Parker, he shows Julias mother as Mary Jane Stafford born Uniontown, Fayette County, Pennsylvania. I would consider her son, Marshall Andrew Parker as the best family source of knowledgeable information.

  • Double Eagle
    March 2, 2009 11:42 a.m.

    Horse Creek Cowboy
    I am surprized that Dan would even be willing to engage in discussion when he is belittled, made fun of and assailed.

    HCC. On a previous blog out of a total of 275 posts, Mr. Buck posted 43 times, he belittled, made fun of and assailed anyone and everyone, who dared an opinion. He then continually referred to his numerous web sites, where he belittles, makes fun of and assails everyone. What goes around, comes around.

  • AC
    March 2, 2009 5:53 p.m.

    "HCC. On a previous blog out of a total of 275 posts, Mr. Buck posted 43 times, he belittled, made fun of and assailed anyone and everyone, who dared an opinion. He then continually referred to his numerous web sites, where he belittles, makes fun of and assails everyone. What goes around, comes around."

    You know DE, there are those that are big enough to come forward, stand up and take the medicine they fully deserve. In other words, be man enough to be held accountable! Then there are those that when FACTS/QUESTIONS are presented of things they have done for a number of years, they are unable to defend what they have done. There are certain actions that really have no defense, in a decent world. Some also believe, one can run and hide just so long. When the mirror reflects what is, some refuse to look in the mirror. You are welcome to draw your own conclsions.

    AC

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 2, 2009 7:01 p.m.


    OK
    Ghost Town Bob you just dont know when your beat, so lets try a different approach. The only record you have found for your William Henry Long is his Army record. Your William Henry Long is the source for this record. He was born in Fayette County Pennsylvania around 1857. You have not provided the census records from Fayette County, which would show his parents birthplace and names which could be compared with mine. My William Henry Long is the source for his marriage license and four

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 2, 2009 7:02 p.m.

    census records. All These records show my William Henry Long was born around 1867. Your William Henry Long is ten years older than mine so they are different men. The only thing they have in Common is they both spent time in Wyoming and this is what you use to conclude they are the same man. A bit ridicules dont you think?

    PS
    My William Henry Longs mothers given name was Ann, just like Harry longabaughs mothers given name. But as you say there are thousands of Anns so it means nothing. What is your William Henry Longs mothers given name? Is it Ann?

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 2, 2009 8:35 p.m.

    Jerry, first of all, thank you for your kind comment about the E. Place reference in Donna Ernst's book.

    Now concerning William Long. you mention that William Henry Long's calculated birth year is 1867 as evidenced from the censuses and his marriage record.

    The records showing 1867 are as follows:
    1910 census William Long's age is 43 (born ca. 1867)
    1920 census William Long's age is 53 (born ca. 1867)
    1930 census William Long's age is 63 (born ca. 1867)
    William Long's marriage reocrd in 1894 lists his age as 27 (born ca. 1867).

    Other records in Utah give other dates for William Henry Long's birth:
    -the 1900 census give an age of 36 (born ca. 1864)
    -William Henry Long's Death Certificate gives a birth date of: Feb 2, 1860
    -William Henry Long's tombstone has a birth date of 2 Feb, 1860
    -William Hnery Long's obituary gives an age of 76 in 1936 (born 1860)

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 2, 2009 8:48 p.m.

    You presume that all of the census data comes from William Henry Long. That is not necessarily the case. Census takers took information from whomever answered the door. The information could just as easily come from Luzernia. His age on his birth record probably did come from him. The data on the 1900 census could have come from him, or Charles Anderson, or Emery Hector those with whom he was living at the time. The date from the obituary, death cert., and tombstone all presumably come from Evinda, his daughter.

    In summary, from your own records that have been presented, William Henry Long could have been born in 1860, 1864, or 1867.

    Now, from the 1880 census: William Long's age is given as 21 (born 1859)
    from the 1870 census William Long's age is given as 13 (born 1857)
    from the 1860 census William Long's age is given as 3 (born 1857)
    From his military records in 1886 William Long lists his age as 21 (born 1865)
    in 1891 William Long lists his age as 26 (born 1865)

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 2, 2009 9:02 p.m.

    As you can see William Henry Long in Utah records could have been born anywhere from 1860 to 1867. William Long in the earlier census records and military records could have been born anywhere between 1857 and 1865. This looks like a pretty good overlap to me.

    Now concerning his mother's name I quote your previous website material: "He never told anyone within the Morrell/Allred family circle whi his parents were other than to mention more than on one occasion that his mother was named Ann." This, and Williams Henry Long's death certificate are the only sources for his mother's name. Hardly conclusive. On the other hand William Long's mothers name in the 1880, 1870, and 1850 censuses is listed as either Mary J. or Mary Jane. The Ancestral File however lists his mother's name as Mary Ann Stafford. Just the same, hardly conclusive.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 2, 2009 9:26 p.m.

    As for birth places. Your previous website material states: "Bill Long is born by his own stories either in Wyoming, Eastern US or Idaho." William Henry Long's death certificate lists Basin, Big Horn, Wyoming as his birth place. His Obituary lists the Big Horn Basin, Wyoming. The 1900 census lists Montana as his birth place, the 1910, 1920, and 1930 censuses list Idaho as his birth place. Hardly conclusive

    William Long in the 1880 lists his birth place as Pennsylvania. In the 1870 and 1860 census his birthplace is also listed as Pennsylvania. His parent's birth places in the 1880, 1870, and 1850 censuses are also listed as Pennsylvania. William Long is listed in the 1860 census of Springfield, Fayette Co., PA. In William Long's 1886 military record his birth place is listed as La Fayette Co., PA, while in his 1891 record his birth place is listed as Fayette Co., PA.

    I think this pretty well sums up the census, birthplace, and parents issue.

    All the best.
    Bob

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 2, 2009 9:29 p.m.

    Correction: "His age on his birth record probably did come from him." should read: "His age on his marriage record probably did come from him."

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 2, 2009 10:21 p.m.

    Bob
    How could your man be born in 1865 and be on the 1860 census record? Oh please give me a break.

  • Anonymous
    March 3, 2009 12:11 a.m.

    Little Buck,
    Julia Ann Long was born April 1853 in Allegheny County, Pennsylvania, Minnie Long was born June 1860 in Schuylkill County, Pennsylvania, that means William Long was born between 1854 and 1859, somewhere in Pennsylvania, but not necessarily in Fayette County, Pennsylvania. In the 1860 census, Amelia, Washington, Franklin, Julia and William are living with their grandmother Catharine Long in Springfield, Fayette County, Pennsylvania.

  • AC
    March 3, 2009 9:03 a.m.

    Some of us are truly amazed at what can be learned about someone else's character, without even digging a hole.

    AC

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 3, 2009 11:38 a.m.

    Jerry: I was just stating what was on the records - what he, or his family claimed was his age. I'm not claiming he was born in 1865.

    Anonymous - I have not called you names, are you so little that you have to result to name calling? In the 1860 census Amelia, Washington, Franklin, Julia and William are living with their parents, Alexander and Mary J. Long in Springfield, Fayette County, PA. Catherine Long their grandmother is living with the family as is an Ercillia Long age 15. This was on Aug. 15 1860. Minnie Long had not been born yet. Are you sure you are not confusing Minnie Long, sister to William Long with Minnie daughter of Edwin and Emeline (Maria) Long Clergyman of Montgomery County, PA in 1860. This is much closer to Schuylkill County than Fayette County. This Edwin Long is found on the 1850 census of Owensburg, Schuylkill, County, Pennsylvania.

  • Anonymous
    March 3, 2009 2:15 p.m.

    Ghosttown Bob,
    Now how do you know Minnie hasnt been born yet? Alexander and Mary arent living in the household, in the 1860 census. Ercillia Long age 15, is Drucilla Long, granddaughter, of Nathan and Catherine Long, you will find her in the 1850 census, for Springfield, Fayette County, Pennsylvania. Now if you can place Minnie Long, daughter of Edwin Long, in Johnson County, Iowa in 1881, marring a man from neighboring Iowa County, I might have the wrong Minnie Long. As the 1880 census indicates, there is only one Minnie Long in all of Iowa, born in Pennsylvania, and she is the daughter of Alex and Mary Long, and Minnies daughter was born 29 Sep 1883, in Iowa City, Johnson County, Iowa, Im fairly confident I have the right Minnie. As for name calling, what do you call this? "Great Anon Y Mouse." I thought perhaps you wanted to be just like Dan, you not only make the same arguments he does, your beginning to sign off just like he does, All the best. (All the best, Dan Buck.)

  • Anonymous
    March 3, 2009 2:24 p.m.

    Ghosttown Bob | 12:36 p.m. Jan. 29, 2009
    In your own words.
    William Long was born 1857, possibly Feb. 2. in Springfield twp., Fayette County PA. His parents were Alexander and Mary Jane Long.
    Around 1880 William moved with his sister Minnie to Ft. D.A. Russell, near Laramie, Wyo.
    Henry Parker in 1880 was working as a Freighter and wagon master, hauling freight out from Laramie.
    18th Infantry was transferred from Northern Montana to Ft. Leavenworth Kansas. Their route took them through Laramie, Wyo. and Ft. D.A. Russell to the railroad.

  • Anonymous
    March 3, 2009 2:26 p.m.

    Continued
    Lets see, you knew all along that William Longs mothers name was Mary Ann Stafford Long???
    William and Minnie Long were in census district 26, which included Camp Carlin, before June 2, 1880, when the census was taken. Of course, when one looks at the census, it only shows Fort. D. A. Russell, District 26.
    1880 United States Federal Census > Wyoming > Laramie > Fort D A Russell > District 26
    Henry Parker was wagon master at Camp Carlin, in 1880, the railroad at Cheyenne would have been a little closer than the one at Laramie. Now why would the 18th Infantry pass through Laramie, Wyoming, when they came down from Northern Montana? Ill bet, they passed through Fort Laramie first, then Fort D. A. Russell, then caught a train at Cheyenne, Wyoming.
    Bob, the evidence is overwhelming, you didnt do the research.

  • A C
    March 3, 2009 2:47 p.m.

    Having just received Mrs. Ernst's newest book, I was pleased to read Mr. Buck's opinions, in the "forward" section. Some things just won't change.

    Your time won't be wasted by my opinions of detail accuracy, others will do a much better job of that.
    But I will not close without pointing out a small detail, that I believe was brought to Mrs. Ernst's attention a few years ago. Since it involves a lady well known to the Ernst & Buck teams, it needs to be shared.

    Page 222 lists BOOKS & ARTICLES. Item 8 is shown as follows:

    Betenson, Lula Parker. BUTCH CASSIDY, MY BROTHER. Salt Lake City, Utah: Brigham Young University Press, 1984. I find it amazing that Mrs. Betenson is still causing issues for some of our historians.

    Lula Parker Betenson passed away May 5, 1980. Her book noted above, I believe was published in 1975. Not 1984.

    A C

  • Anonymous
    March 3, 2009 7:25 p.m.

    Having checked on the point AC made about the error in the publishing date of Mrs. Betenson's book, by Donna Ernst, I have to agree. My copy of Mrs. Betenson's book was published by Brigham Young University Press, Provo, Utah, in 1975. Not in 1984, as stated by Mrs. Ernst. Even if Mrs. Ernst is using a later printing, isn't it always professionally proper to use the date of first publication, when referencing another book, as a source of information?

    One has to wonder, as a book like this is read, is what I am reading accurate information, or words used to fill a page.

    Would someone please explain what a "historian" is actually required to do, when putting their book on the market.

    Thank you.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 4, 2009 1:56 p.m.

    Anonymous:
    Concerning the 1860 census - No, Minnie was not born as of Aug. 15, 1860 and yes Alexander Long age 40 Master Cooper born Penn. and Mary J. ---- age 39 born Penn. were living with the family in in Springfield Twp., Fayette Co., PA see page 757. Apparently you "didn't notice" that the house number and family number were not at the top of the page signifying that there were more entries on this family on the preceding page, or didn't notice that the Ancestry site had missed a page in their imaging. You could have easily crossed checked with either the microfilm edition of the census or Heritage Quest. (I think I am supposed to insert here: "You don't know what you are talking about." or "You lost give it a break" or "the evidence is overwhelming, you didnt do the research")

    By the way does "I'll bet . . ." = "the evidence is overwhelming?"

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 4, 2009 2:10 p.m.

    "1880 United States Federal Census > Wyoming > Laramie > Fort D A Russell > District 26" must mean you know how to use the Ancestry site.

    What would Alexander and Mary Jane Long be doing in Schuylkill County, on the other side of Pennsylvania giving birth to Minnie when their house was in Fayette County?

    This seems to be getting rather far afield from the main topic of William Henry Long unless you are trying to prove how good a researcher you are. Anonymous do you feel so threatened by my findings that you have to prove your point by overwhelming the topic with useless information to show how much research you have done?

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 4, 2009 2:18 p.m.

    I feel bad that Horse Creek Cowboy was chased off this comment board like Dan Buck. I found HCC's comments some of the more insightful that I have seen. He is obviously informed. I, for one would like to hear more of what he has to say.

  • Anonymous
    March 4, 2009 3:12 p.m.

    "I feel bad that Horse Creek Cowboy was chased off this comment board like Dan Buck."

    You should feel good Mr. GTB, you are only half wrong.

  • The Shadow
    March 4, 2009 3:57 p.m.

    It is impossible to have a meaningful discussion with Dan Buck if you disagree with him. No one is going to take his abuse. Show us where Dan Buck has engaged with someone he disagrees with respect and dignity. It cant be done.

  • A C
    March 4, 2009 4:31 p.m.

    Mr. GTB says, "I feel bad that Horse Creek Cowboy was chased off this comment board like Dan Buck."

    Mr. GTB. On a previous "comment board" , a lady, who was a member of the Parker family was "chased off" by your Daniel Buck, when he informed her, he knew more about her family than she did. (of course we now know what he knew, was based on what had "reportedly" been said.)

    How "bad" do you feel for her, GTB? Would like more examples, Sir?

    Mr. Buck was chased off, because most are tied of his tactics. Period.

    A C

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 4, 2009 5:28 p.m.

    GTB writes
    This seems to be getting rather far afield from the main topic of William Henry Long

    You are absolutly right. What does your army deserter have to do with this subject.

    Will Dan Buck show us the three 1901 Argintina documets?
    Will he show us the reciept for Butchs Feb 4, 1901 purchase of the beautiful gold watch for Etta?

    He can use an alies like another person I know or he can post through you.


  • Queen Ann
    March 4, 2009 5:50 p.m.

    First GTB you are to be admired for taking on the job of apparent spokesman and defender of Mr. Buck. As I do have feelings of sympathy for you, I offer my help.

    Being fair to you, the subject of how he has made a habit of belittling those who don't agee with him, has been somewhat covered in previous postings and needs no further comment.

    To give you a chance, let us try a different approach. Is it not a fair assumption that one who is to be honored and treated with respect, would have done something in their lives to earn these this? I think most would agree that is fair, wouldn't you? This gives you a chance to do something that has not been shown on a number of previous comment boards. Mr. Buck has many times been asked this question, (with no response) now here is your chance to share this information.

    What do you consider Mr. Buck's greatest accomplishment to be? And I know you will be fair to all.

    Queen Ann

  • Anonymous
    March 4, 2009 8:17 p.m.

    Ghosttown Bob |
    Do you recall your post on the blog 12:36 p.m. Jan. 29, 2009?
    Now that the hoopla has died down about William Henry Long, it is about time to reveal real story.

    Bob, youre the one who told us about the Long family, Alexander, Mary Jane, Julia Ann, William, Minnie and Henry Parker. Now that you actually know something about William Long, it is about time to reveal the true story.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 5, 2009 7:52 a.m.

    Gee . . . I think I have just gone through an "intervention" . . . Is this the part where we do the group hug??

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 5, 2009 8:21 a.m.

    Queen Ann: With all due respect I am not a spokesman or a defender of Dan Buck. I have never personally spoken with him, and other that what has been on these boards have never exchanged anything with him. I did once write an email to him which he did not answer. Actually I disagree with several of his theories. Personally I found the book the he and his wife wrote difficult to read, and lacking in proper documentation. It read more like a travel log, jumping from one subject to another than historical research. However Dan's other articles are much better written and documented.

    Frankly, I am more of a dis-interested bystander in this whole Dan Buck vs the mob thing going on here. Have you actually gone back and read the things said about Dan? The attacks are personal. Then HCC gets on here, makes a few insightful comments, and the very first reply to him has more personal attacks: "Horse C C has described what makes for a good horse race... Get a grip HorseCC...good luck in the third grade." among others.

  • Anonymous
    March 5, 2009 8:47 a.m.

    Ghosttown Bob,
    Evidently Bob, you prefer the low ground, attacking rather than defending yourself. One such as yourself must avoid being baited into a defenseless position. Myself, I prefer to defend the high ground and bait my advisory into a defenseless position. As I expected, you jumped on the 1860 census, no mention of Camp Carlin, Laramie or Henry Parker. Its rather obvious, dont you think Bob, attacking the 1860 census is a diversionary tactic, employed several times by you to evade a legitimate question. To date, you have provided nothing, but census information. When I posted the factual information 11:34 a.m. Feb. 26, 2009, you then posted 9:52 p.m. Feb. 28, 2009 claiming you already knew it, B/S. You may have factual information about the Longs and Parkers now, you certainly didnt in the beginning. Youve once again proven some people just can not resist telling how smart they are and how dumb we are, every time you respond to my posts, it tells us more about you and what you really know about William Henry Long, than you realize.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 5, 2009 9:17 a.m.

    You ask what Dan Buck's greatest accomplishment has been. Well, he has made public a wealth documentation on Robert Parker and Harry Longabaugh in South America using South American sources. Many of these have never been seen in English translation before. I realize that some of these documents Jerry and others have disputed as to their authenticity, that is still open for debate, most are, however public documents and can be verified. I might disagree with his conclusions in those documents but I don't think that Dan Buckknowingly used false documents. Dan has brought to light a part of Parker's and Longabaugh's lives that was largely unknown before.

    Am I a fan of Bucks? Not necessarily, but I do respect him for what he has found.

  • Anonymous
    March 5, 2009 10:49 a.m.

    Ghosttown Bob,
    You seem to be allergic to criticism. Not wanting to cause you to blow a fuse, I agree, its time to move on.
    I must say, I certainly have enjoyed our exchange, although, you provided nothing useful or factual in proving whether William Long and William Henry Long were one and the same. Your probably a decent fellow.

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 5, 2009 11:55 a.m.

    This Saturday March 7, with out camera, we are going to Alma New Mexico where Butch had a salon and worked at the nearby W S ranch. We are then going to Frisco New Mexico. It was forty miles from Frisco that Pinkerton detective Charlie Siringo discovered Butch spent the winter of 1900-1901. Butch was here on Feb 4, 1901 not in New York City buying a beautiful gold watch for Etta. We will go through Wilcox Arizona and try and find where Pinkerton informant Blake Graham met Butch In May 1901. Maybe there is a historical marker there. We will travel through Globe Arizona where Butch went after he met Graham. After leaving Globe Butch went north and met up with Sundance and the gang robbed the train at Wagner Montana on July 3, 1901.

    It has been falsely reported Butch was in Argentina during this time.

  • a non a mouse
    March 5, 2009 12:35 p.m.

    "Am I a fan of Bucks? Not necessarily, but I do respect him for what he has found.", says GTB.

    If I understand you correctly, Mr. GTB, Mr. Buck collects newspapers, he also apparently keeps records of what some relatives of our "Outlaw" friends have "reportedly" said. (THAT MEANS THEY MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE ACTUALLY EVER SAID IT) He also keeps very accurate records of his (claimed) phone interviews, as has been shown, with, was it Mrs. Charter. Last, but not least (this is what probably elavated him to the level of "foremost authority"), he was able to remove the remains of Mr. Zimmer, in his fabled trek to SO. Am., where he was successful. Now I got it.

    Oh GTB, did you mean to address his "tactics" with those that might not agree with him, or you might deal with that at a later time.

    It would seem to some, these comments have nothing to do with Mr. Buck's personal life, they appear to be directed at what he has done as a (professional?) historian, publishing material for sale to the public.

    A N A M

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 5, 2009 1:42 p.m.

    It cannot be denied Dan Buck did make some very important contributions. We that are interested in this subject should realize he is a very important part of this discussion. Maybe the day will come when we, including Dan Buck, can forget the past differences and move on.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 5, 2009 2:40 p.m.

    Well said, Jerry.

    Thanks

  • Anonymous
    March 5, 2009 2:43 p.m.

    We quote the GTB. "I feel bad that Horse Creek Cowboy was chased off this comment board like Dan Buck. I found HCC's comments some of the more insightful that I have seen. He is obviously informed. I, for one would like to hear more of what he has to say."

    HCC. On a previous blog out of a total of 275 posts, Mr. Buck posted 43 times, he belittled, made fun of and assailed anyone and everyone, who dared an opinion. He then continually referred to his numerous web sites, where he belittles, makes fun of and assails everyone. What goes around, comes around.

    Mr. GTB, Are the above comments the ones you are referring too, that you would like to see more of?

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 5, 2009 3:30 p.m.

    Dan Buck made some important contributions yes but the three 1901 Argentina documents and the Feb 4, 1901 receipt for the gold watch hurt his credibility. He made some other South American discoveries that have benefited but he should understand he is not the leading expert on the subject. He needs an attitude adjustment.
    I am the first person to realize Butch did not go to Argentina in 1901. Every writer since Charles Kelly including Dan Buck believed he did. Should Dan Buck now relinquish the leading expert title to me?

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 5, 2009 3:47 p.m.

    GTB
    If Anonymous had not been in my corner you would have beat me to death with your army deserter. I dont have the ability to do genealogy research like you do. The best way to handle you and Dan Bucks criticism is know the subject better than you two do. We are doing pretty well.

  • Anonymous
    March 5, 2009 4:18 p.m.

    Someone said, "Dan Buck needs an attitude adjustment." A more astute diagnosis has never been made.

    Now would anyone care to venture (roughly) when this "adjustment" will take place?

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 6, 2009 8:17 a.m.

    Anon I was referring to Horse Creek Cowboy, not Dan Buck. Why did your comments always revert back to Buck? Do you feel that the only way your theory can succeed is by completely discrediting Buck? If you want to discredit Dan's research, discredit his research, don't just sit and trade insults with him, it will get you nowhere. It just makes you all look bad.

    Have you gone back and really looked at Buck's comments and what others have said about him? It looks to me like you all have been rolling around in the mud and are all in need of a good shower.

    Maybe with spring approaching the rains will come and wash you all clean.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 6, 2009 8:36 a.m.

    Jerry
    Well you do have the advantage of having a full time researcher on your side. Since I have a life, I don't ever spend more that a half hour a day or so on this. I am blessed however by having access to a plethora of sources. Anon. has little or no idea of how much I have collected. We could debate for a year and not run out of material. I suspect, though, that it has been more fun for me than it has been for her.

    I know with the construction business down you must have a lot of extra time on your hands and you can direct your resources to your project. I just hope that you realize that in the end it will all be in vain. With what little you have to go on, without DNA evidence your hoped for "peer review" will never materialize. The critics will eat you alive.

    Pier: "Sitting on the dock of the bay. . . wasting time hmmm . . . wasting time." (Otis Redding)

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 6, 2009 8:48 a.m.

    Jerry
    You said: "Dan Buck made some important contributions yes but the three 1901 Argentina documents and the Feb 4, 1901 receipt for the gold watch hurt his credibility."

    I think this is an important area of inquiry that needs to be followed up on. Not to necessarily discredit Dan, but to find the truth. It should be made the subject of honest historical inquiry. As for Dan Buck or you being the leading authority. That is not decided by either you or him, but by others as you present your findings and gain credibility. Jerry, I don't intend for this to be insulting or derogatory, but as advice, please, if you go about this in the wrong way you will just be seen as another crackpot, documentary and all.

  • Anonymous
    March 6, 2009 9:39 a.m.

    "It looks to me like you all have been rolling around in the mud and are all in need of a good shower." Mr. GTB sayeth.

    Then he follows with: Pier: "Sitting on the dock of the bay. . . wasting time hmmm . . . wasting time." (Otis Redding)

    Do we see a "follow the leader" pattern here? You say others need a cleansing shower to remove the mud, then you choose to point out the spelling error by Mr. Nickle. Real class.

    Be sure and use soap GTB Iver.

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 6, 2009 11:36 a.m.


    GTB
    I Completely agree with you. I hope we can all move forward together and discuss or differences in friendly terms. I dont have all the answers, but maybe I can contribute something. Lets have fun not a war of words.

    We are off to Alma tomorrow to take a few pictures and see if we can find the WS ranch. I am going to take this newspaper article and use it to become squinted with the locals there. I am hoping they will show us the area. When I get back I will report what found here.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 6, 2009 1:22 p.m.

    Thanks Jerry, I think there is much that we can discuss in a fruitful way that will help everyone arrive at the truth. Sorry about the Pier/Peer allusion - I was using it to prove a point.

    Anon. This is a good example of what I have been talking about here. I made a good-natured jab. You then jumped all over it and was offended when no offense was intended. You expect from others what you do not expect from yourself. You seem to take yourself too seriously. I seem to remember that when I left the Ft. off of Ft. Laramie, you jumped all over it trying to prove your point. You could have just asked did you mean Laramie, or Ft. Laramie? Then the discussion could have continued. Instead it cut off any chance of a good discussion.

    Anonymous, I feel no ill will towards you or any of Jerry's other supporters. I may think you are dead wrong however.

    By the way I use Irish Spring, what do you use??

  • Anonymous
    March 6, 2009 1:57 p.m.

    Ghosttown Bob
    You would have been better served having a full time researcher. Your access to a plethora of sources, failed you miserable. Ft. D.A. Russell, near Laramie, Wyo.???
    Henry Parker in 1880 was working as a Freighter and wagon master, hauling freight out from Laramie.??? 18th Infantry was transferred from Northern Montana to Ft. Leavenworth Kansas. Their route took them through Laramie, Wyo. and Ft. D.A. Russell to the railroad.??? Etc. Etc. Etc. Revision to my last post 10:49 a.m. March 5, 2009,
    you provided nothing useful or factual, period. No doubt probably a slipmouth.

  • Anonymous
    March 6, 2009 2:52 p.m.

    Mr. GTB, do you have a clue as to how many different folk have posted on this babble board, under "anon"? This "one" was unaware of your "Ft" Laramie comment. I have tried to avoid your "information", which you have been "jabbing" Jerry with. Some feel your "jabbing" had the sole purpose of showing how wrong Jerry is with his claim. Over and over.

    You have put a lot of effort into showing how wrong Jerry is. Wrong he may be. But don't you feel the entire hand should be dealt, before you grab the pot?

    If you think "soap" will wash off your defending one who has made a career of bad-mouthing those who disagree with him, may I suggest "lye" soap.

    There have been numerous comments made, suggesting you give Jerry a chance. If he is wrong, the facts will determine it, not you or Buck. As has been shown, Buck has proven something. What he is, what he knows and what he doesn't know. Why not allow Jerry the same courtesy? That is all I ask.

    If you locate the correct Ft. Lar "anom", jab him. Better wait for DNA though.

    A Non

  • A C
    March 6, 2009 3:21 p.m.

    Mr. Ghost

    Can you imagine the ink that would have been saved, if you had not provided us with all the Forts, sisters, cousins, any and all kin, that you have used to prejudge Nickle's efforts.

    Would you possibly consider, putting forth the same effort, except this time, you can comment on what has actually happened (facts), as opoosed to what may happen. This would be your opinion of what Mr. Buck has proven. No, don't use the easy one of where Gustov is (was) buried.

    Thank you.

    A C

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 6, 2009 3:31 p.m.

    Befofe I make an entry on this blog I type it up on word to make sure everything is speeled right. It looks like a checkerboard; half of the words are underlined in red.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 6, 2009 3:49 p.m.

    A Non, how nice, hiding behind someone else's pseudonym. At least I post with a screen name of my own so everyone knows who is posting, I have been assuming that Anonymous was one person. My apologies to the informed one.

  • Old a non
    March 6, 2009 3:52 p.m.

    Mr. GTB points out:

    "Then the discussion could have continued. Instead it cut off any chance of a good discussion."

    Thank you for reminding us of that issue. You of course are speaking of when Mr. Buck "cut off" any chance of a good discussion, with the lady who was a relative of the Parker family. She said something like, "she didn't have to put up with Dan Buck", and she sadly left. I am surprised you bring that up about Mr. Buck. Thank you again. Well done.

    Not Ft Lar anon

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 6, 2009 3:55 p.m.

    A C: I thought the issue here was about William Henry Long and any connection or not to Harry Longabaugh. I didn't realize that this was an anti Dan Buck blog.

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 6, 2009 4:07 p.m.

    I could care less what you Dan Buck or the critics believe. I am a threat to them. They are going to have to do explaining. They cannot intimidate or bully me. Nothing I write will be published in WOLA or will I be invited to their conventions. This is a closed fraternity and Im not welcome or do I want to join them. I relish the confrontation and like being the outsider and underdog.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 6, 2009 4:07 p.m.

    A C: Now about the "Forts, sisters, cousins, and any kin," I think it has been one of the many Anonymous' that has kept bringing this up, mainly to dis-prove (I avoid the word discredit here) my assertion that William Henry Long was actually the William Long born ca. 1857-1865 in Fayette Co., PA, - - and to beat me over the head with her copious research. (or is that "pound me into submission" ((aside: I'm just trying to be humorous here)).

    Actually, I'm looking forward to moving on to Gooldy, Gillespie and the N Bar N.

  • A C
    March 6, 2009 4:30 p.m.

    One is asked a question. The response, "that is a great question, but first let say this". The "question", is never mentioned again.

    You should consider politics, GT.

    "Anti, Mr. Buck", where do you get that? But if you mean, pointing out actual (facts) things Mr. Buck has done as "anti"--------- must be anti then.

    Your response to the lady Buck chased off was what?

    It must also make your hear feel good to see all the support you are getting.

    A C

  • A C
    March 6, 2009 4:46 p.m.

    Actually Mr I, I am starting Joe Torre's new book on the Yankees. Also read Harv Murdock's book about Elza Lay. Interesting. as he uses only real information, nothing was "reportedly" said.

    B4 you use up your 30 minutes a day, no politics, supporters or comment on the Parker relative chasing?

    By the way, do you ever feel like you are swimming against the current?

    A C

  • Anonymous
    March 6, 2009 5:26 p.m.

    Ghosttown Bob

    Ok, doubtful but possible, you forgot the Ft. for Laramie. You also stated below.
    It is possible that William ranged as far North with his brother-in-law as Ft. Assinniboin along the Milk River where the 18th Infantry was stationed. In 1885 after several years along the Northern Montana boarder, having faced the rough Montana winters and hostile Indians, including participating in the Wounded Knee campaign, the 18th Infantry was transferred from Northern Montana to Ft. Leavenworth Kansas. Their route took them through Laramie, Wyo. and Ft. D.A. Russell to the railroad.

    Bob, According to historical accounts, the events leading up to its final act, the Wounded Knee Massacre, had been building since the late 1880s. Officially, The Wounded Knee Campaign was from 1890 - 1891. If the 18th Infantry participated in the Wounded Knee Campaign, as you stated, then explain their transfer to Ft. Leavenworth, Kansas in 1885. Your William Long joined the 18th Infantry, on Aug 7, 1886, at Ft. Leavenworth, Kansas. Before the Wounded Knee Campaign?

  • Great Anon Y Mouse
    March 6, 2009 7:07 p.m.

    Ghoattown Bob,
    There have been numerous comments made, suggesting you give Jerry a chance. If he is wrong, the facts will determine it, not you or Buck. As has been shown, Buck has proven something. What he is, what he knows and what he doesn't know. Why not allow Jerry the same courtesy?
    Good advice. Let it pass, lets move on.
    Great Anon Y Mouse

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 6, 2009 7:32 p.m.

    Anonymous: I bow before your all powerful wisdom and knowledge. Yes I confused the 18th Infantry's chasing of Sitting Bull around the Canadian Border with the later Wounded Knee Campaign.

    Are you happy now? Or do you want to keep trying to pound me over the head?

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 6, 2009 7:46 p.m.

    Not time yet

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 6, 2009 7:50 p.m.

    Great Anon Y Mouse: I am giving Jerry a chance to prove his theory. He will press on no matter what I do. But if he is right, he will be better for it. Isn't he better off knowing that there is another explanation out there concerning William Henry Long now rather than waiting until he publishes his results and then gets blind sided with another explanation that contradicts his? If he knows now where the holes are in his theory, it gives him a better chance to fill them.

    Now if he is wrong, with his absence of any DNA proof to support his theory, his theory will always remain a theory which may eventually be disproved. I have no axe to grind with Jerry or his project, but if I think he is wrong, I will say he is wrong. Hopefully, once this is all over, the research I have done, and prompted Anonymous to do may yet help the family find their true roots.

  • Mycroft Holmes
    March 7, 2009 4:10 p.m.

    Was it Winston, Douglas or Butch who said, "old historians never die, they just..........fade away".

    There are things that have been accomplished here, I would observe. Some of these words have even been informative. We have learned a lot about a few people. Now we wait, to learn the final outcome for Mr. Nickle. I know we all wish him well. May he travel without the burden of unwelcome, pre-determined opinions.

    And finally, is a big part of the attraction of all this, the fear & joy, that we may never know where the boys went?

    I bid you all a most pleasant, good evening.

    M. Holmes

  • J.R.
    March 7, 2009 4:32 p.m.

    Whatever comes of this we are already winners. I have thoroughly enjoyed all I have read or seen regarding this issue. Most of the "Old West" chacters have grown in stature and been embelished upon after they were gone. It makes a great story true or false and people will still be talking about this and the rest of the gang and their tie ins as long as their are people with an interest in the old west.

  • Sherlock Holmes
    March 7, 2009 8:53 p.m.

    If I may briefly add to what my brother, Mycroft shared.

    If this bunch of name calling, back stabbing, low lifes can end up as shown in the last two entries, is there not hope for our world. I think so.

    Always at your service,

    S. Holmes

  • RJ
    March 8, 2009 1:38 p.m.

    In keeping with the new and may I say, greatly improved dialogue, that has appeared, I would like to ask a question regarding the Sundance Kid.

    Maybe Mrs. Ernst even looks in on this venue, once in a while. The abilities, with a gun, that have been credited to Mr. Longabaugh, where exactly does this come from? Is there documented information proving this, or did it begin in 1969, with the performance of Mr. Redford.

    Mrs. Ernst states, "Butch never killed anyone, until the end". (some believe the jury is still out on that final verdict) Is there a record of anyone that Sundance shot? If he never shot or killed anyone either, where did his reputation with a gun come from?

    It seems like a fair question.

    RJ

  • Kid
    March 8, 2009 8:53 p.m.

    J. P. "JACK" RYAN and His NOTORIOUS SALOONS
    By December 3,1900, Assistant Superintendent, Murry of the Pinkertons' Denver office had discovered that one "Alonzo" aka Harry Longbaugh was known around Rawlins as "Swede". Furthermore, Swede had come to our Town about six weeks before, with a lot of Gold Coin and "Currency that seemed to be blackened or burned considerably. He knew Ryan and tried to have the Saloon Keeper exchange it for him.
    Compiled by Rans Baker June 2002 Carbon County Museum, Rawlins, Wyoming Complete file for J. P. Ryan Available at the Museum

  • Kid
    March 8, 2009 9:17 p.m.

    Gooldy: October 1900
    Harry Alonzo told one man (David Gillespie) before leaving Slater, about helping rob a bank at Winnemucca, Nevada. The two men Harry and Butch went to Walcott, Colorado, where they boarded the train. They gave two cowboys their equipment and horses - Harry's Winchester was an 1895 Model, 30 caliber. It shot a 30-40 cartridge.

    Pinkerton Files: Cassidy at Rawlins October 24, 1900.

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 10, 2009 7:51 p.m.

    Alma New Mexico is a five-hour drive from Phoenix. We arrived in Alma 2:00pm Saturday. We went unannounced to the WS. Ranch where we found the present owners at home. The ranch is working cattle and horse ranch and a bed and breakfast during the season. The present owners grandfather purchased the ranch from Wilson and Stevens many years ago. We visited with the owners and they gave us a tour of the ranch. There is a section of the original adobe wall that is protected from the elements with a barn. They are several trees that were planted during the Butch Cassidy era. The cottonwood trees are enormous. They have a bunkhouse that was moved there in the late thirties which they have decorated old west style. There is a Butch Cassidy room and the rest of the rooms are named after old west characters. There are chickens, horses and cattle, which roam free around the yard. We hope to will return there this summer and stay in the bunkhouse.

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 10, 2009 8:24 p.m.

    Near Alma New Mexico, some ten miles off the main highway, is Mogollon Ghost Town. Thinking of Ghost Town Bob we had to drive there to see it and give him a report here. It is the best most interesting ghost town I have ever visited. The buildings have been maintained and were all boarded up. There was a general store, a theater, and several other buildings. Because it was off-season the town was vacant of live people but I did see a couple of ghosts. I saw one ghost dash by an upstairs window at the hotel. I momentarily saw another one as it ran around the backside of the old store. Do a search for Mogollon Ghost Town and you will see what I mean when I say it is a premier Ghost Town.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 11, 2009 12:30 p.m.

    I'm happy you had such a good time. Mogollon is one of the more impressive ghost towns in New Mexico. You did go at the right time, before the tourist season starts. Later in the year it gets relatively crowded. As a ghost town purist I have mixed feelings with towns such as Mogollon that have their buildings maintained and have a "tourist" presence about them. There is nothing like wandering around a true ghost.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 12, 2009 8:13 a.m.

    Jerry: You didn't happen to run into Jim Lowe, "Red" Weaver or Charlie while you were at Alma or Mogollon did you?

  • St Nick
    March 12, 2009 6:08 p.m.

    For some time I have thought that Hiram Beebe was the Sundance Kid. Does anyone have proof that he wasn't? And why haven't we done DNA testing on his body?

    I have heard that Butch Cassidy had a daughter named Florence. So did Butch have a daughter named Florence?

    I know this is a William Henry Long thread not Butch but it's not that far off topic. Sorry for all the questions. I hope these questions can be answered sincerely. I hope I come across that way. I don't have any know-it-all comments. Thanks.

  • Anonymous
    March 12, 2009 7:40 p.m.

    The abilities, with a gun, that have been credited to Mr. Longabaugh, where exactly does this come from? Is there documented information proving this, or did it begin in 1969, with the performance of Mr. Redford?

    Mrs. Ernst states, "Butch never killed anyone, until the end". (some believe the jury is still out on that final verdict) Is there a record of anyone that Sundance shot? If he never shot or killed anyone either, where did his reputation with a gun come from?

    Does anyone know?

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 12, 2009 11:18 p.m.

    In Bolivia Butch and Sundance were asked by Percy Seibert to demonstrate their ability with a handgun. Butch strapped on his six shooters and when ready nodded and they threw two beer bottles high in the air. When the bottles reached the top of the arc Butch would draw and hit both bottles. Sundance could do the same thing and they never missed. Percy Seibert was so impressed he told this story to author James Horan. All of the outlaws spent hours target practicing.

    Butch told Seibert they would sometimes use their colt 45 pistols as a club on their victims. The victims would automatically raise their hands to protect themselves ending any resistance.

  • Anonymous
    March 13, 2009 6:50 a.m.

    "Sundance could do the same thing and they never missed."

    With due respect to Mr. Nickle and Mr. Horan, that is exciting to read. First drawback, as I see it, to this as proof of the boy's shooting abilities: most beer bottles don't carry guns, therefore could probably not shoot back. "Outlaws spent hours target praticing", again, few targets could return fire.

    In Donna's new book on Sundance,she describes how the gentlemen, who had supposedly robbed the train near Malta, are in a saloon, when they see a posse coming. First thing they do is, "start throwing cartridges into the magazines of their Winchesters." In other words, these "outlaws/fast gunmen", all had their Winchesters at the ready. They just had to load them first.

    Is it possible, George Roy Hill,and others, have slightly over cooked the real abilities of thses shooters? Just wondering.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 13, 2009 8:32 a.m.

    October 12 1897
    My dear mother. . . I came very near going to Deadwood, South Dakota for a few days . . . A young fellow, a friend of mine who worked for Al Reader up till the middle of July left here near the first of August and went up there, and about the first of the month was arrested on the charge of having been in the bank robbery at that place on June 28. He was here at Slater on June 27 and up at Als ranch on the 28th so couldnt possibly have taken part in the robbery. . .

    Your aft. Son D. Gillespie

  • Just A. Reader
    March 13, 2009 12:13 p.m.

    After reading the following information, is it any wonder why I sometimes question the accuracy and value of some of the "History" books.

    I speak of the new book by Donna Ernst, on Sundance, her (husband's) relative, or maybe a relative of Jerry Nickle. Mrs Ernst tells us a lawman was hot on the trail of an outlaw (outlaws) near Cortez, Co, then three weeks later lost the trail at the Mississippi River???? In other words, the trail was lost somewhere between north of Minneapolis, Minnesota and New Orleans.

    Does anybody proof read this stuff? She also says a sheriff and Harry headed west from St.Paul to Rapid City, SD. When they neared Duluth,Minnesota, Harry escaped. Take a moment, get your atlas and see where Duluth is, compared to heading west from St Paul. To publish information like this is just plain silly.

    JAR

  • Anonymous
    March 13, 2009 2:08 p.m.

    Ghosttown Bob,
    One of several letters, the rest, I doubt she will ever make them available to the public.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 14, 2009 10:58 a.m.

    The David Gillespie Papers are housed at the Museum of North West Colorado in Craig Colorado and are available are available to the public.

  • Anonymous
    March 14, 2009 11:53 a.m.

    Not all of the Gillespie letters, Bob.

  • Just A Reader
    March 14, 2009 7:56 p.m.

    Sorry to belabor a point, but it seems that one who takes the time to write a book, should put some effort into doing it right.

    Another example from the new Ernst book on Sundance. She states, In 1882 Harry's oldest brother, sails to California from Maine on the MARY & HELEN. "PROBABLY VIA CAPE HORN". Think about the word "probably".

    Would someone please explain, since the Panama Canal didn't open until 32 years later, in 1914, what other route would the MARY & HELEN take?

    Pardon me, but this does seem, again a little silly. Does the other information contain this depth of thought?

    J A R

  • Anonymous
    March 14, 2009 8:59 p.m.

    Since I've noticed a few prior questions regarding the new Sundance book, maybe one who has collected a firearm or two over the years, will be allowed to ask for some help. A friend, who is reading the "Sundance" book just called with a question, I can't answer.

    He states, that on Page 112, it says," (Carver) smoked the posse out of sight with a 30 U.S.

    What in the world is a "30 U.S.?

    Thanks to anyone who can help.

  • Anonymous
    March 14, 2009 9:57 p.m.

    With all due respect to Dan Buck, seeing all the questions regarding the Sundance book, I borrowed a copy and can't help but question a word that Mr. Buck uses in his "foreward".

    "Assiduously researched", is what Mr. Back says. One of the words the dictionary uses for assiduously is, "careful".

    Interesting, is is not?

  • Randall
    March 14, 2009 10:25 p.m.

    You Fellars Didn't Follow Up On The Oakley Polar King Reported Sighting.
    "IM" And Quit Wasting Our Time Chasing Your Tales.



  • Zeke
    March 14, 2009 11:21 p.m.

    "What in the world is a "30 U.S.?""

    That would be a .30-40, I believe--the cartridge for the Krag-Jorgensen rifle used by the US military from 1892 to 1904. It used the relatively new smokeless powder. In this case the cartridge was probably fired from a Model 1895 Winchester, frequently chambered for this cartridge. Elsewhere in her book Ernst mentions Sundance giving an 1895 Winchester to an acquaintance. Other outlaws such as the Ketchums and Elzy Lay favored this rifle/chambering according to Jeff Burton's book "Dynamite and Six-shooter."

  • Anonymous
    March 15, 2009 8:05 a.m.

    Because of Zeke, I again learned something. Thank you, I guess I do confuse easily. In her first Sundance book, Mrs. Ernst claims Sundance's gun of choice was a single shot Colt. No cal. mentioned. Then in her latest work, she mentions how the Malta train robbers, when the posse was about to get them, grasped their empty Winchesters (so they could throw cartridges in the magazines) no cal. mentioned. Then the comment about Carver's 30 US. The way she describes weapons does seem to vary. Of course giving only the cal. does not describe the make, model, type of any firearm. Not really precise information. It is not what you would call precise either, when it is stated, the trail was lost three weeks later, somewhere between north of Minneapolis and New Orleans. It is interesting how the cal. of Carver's weapon has been handed down for 100 years. It also could have been a 44-40, 30-30 and as you know much better than I, there are many, many more.

    Thank you again for your answer. Now maybe you can pinpoint where the trail was lost at the Mississippi River.

  • Anonymous
    March 15, 2009 8:14 a.m.

    "In this case the cartridge was probably fired from a Model 1895 Winchester, frequently chambered for this cartridge. Elsewhere in her book Ernst mentions Sundance giving an 1895 Winchester to an acquaintance."

    Zeke, I believe you are right. This would then mean, either Sundance and Will Carver used the same rifle or Carver allowed Sundance to give his rifle away.

    I suppose that is a possibility.

  • Anonymous
    March 15, 2009 8:29 a.m.


    The 1895 Winchester was the first non-detachable box magazine rifle that Winchester produced. It was actually designed by John Browning, chambered for numerous high-power smokeless cartridges of the day. Calibers available in the 1895 Winchester were .30-40 Krag, .38-72 Winchester, .40-72 Winchester, .303 British, .35 Winchester, .405 Government, 7.62 Russian, .30-03, and .30-06. The caliber is stamped either on the barrel, just in front of the receiver (e.g., 30 US), or on top of the receiver front (e.g., 7.62). The 1895 was available in several different configurations (herein called 'Models'). Seven of every nine Winchester 1895 guns that were produced, were Muskets. The gun was produced from 1895 through 1931, and during that 36-year period there were over 426,000 guns sold. Production began again in 1995, with this later production ending with the closing of the Winchester factory in 2006.

  • Zeke
    March 15, 2009 4:07 p.m.

    "Thank you again for your answer. Now maybe you can pinpoint where the trail was lost at the Mississippi River."

    You're very welcome. As for he Mississippi, I don't know off hand but I think you'd find that information in Charles Siringo's account of the aftermath of the Wilcox robbery in "A Cowboy Detective" which seems to be the source of the statement in question.

    "I believe you are right. This would then mean, either Sundance and Will Carver used the same rifle or Carver allowed Sundance to give his rifle away."

    Maybe, but I think a more likely explanation is that both, at one time or another, had 1895 Winchesters. It was a very popular rifle at the time, especially with lawmen (at least I've seen a number of contemporaneous photos to this effect)--presumably outlaws saw the value of the weapon as well. In fact, Siringo himself used an 1895 Winchester as I recall.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    March 15, 2009 4:44 p.m.

    Been away for a week or two. Find nothing seems to have changed. Next time someone is in New Mexico, one should check with the Town of Socorro on whether they still have the 1901 jail logs. If so, it might strenthen the argument relating to 1901. A rifle purportedly previously belong to Sundance is in the Savery Museum near Dixon along with a phone booth which has an interesting history.
    Next time one goes to Mogollon, remember not to drive too fast on the curves.

  • Just A Reader
    March 15, 2009 5:26 p.m.

    "As for he Mississippi, I don't know off hand but I think you'd find that information in Charles Siringo's account of the aftermath of the Wilcox robbery in "A Cowboy Detective" which seems to be the source of the statement in question."

    Thanks Zeke. That may well be the source of the "statement" (I've been told Mr. Siringo was not always right either)and it does not explain the lack of a reasonable location (or thought). "Lost the trail at the Mississippi River", means little more than, "it was somewhere east of California".

    If Siringo said, "trail was lost on Mars," you gonna use that? Should some thought be given before we use someone else's words? What if they are incorrect?

    My point is, if you really don't know what you are talking about, don't open your mouth and remove all doubt. Worse, don't write about it. It seems the more the "historian's" write, repeat and then rewrite again, the farther we are led astray. I am really not convinced, that just because someone writes it down, it is fact. Don't think so. Do you?

    J A R

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 15, 2009 6:15 p.m.

    According to William French, manager of the WS ranch, Butch was in Colfax County New Mexico in May 1901 because two men were in Colfax County with the kayaks French had given Butch in May 1900. This is more evidence Butch was not in Argentina in 1901.

  • Zeke
    March 15, 2009 8:51 p.m.

    "If Siringo said, "trail was lost on Mars," you gonna use that? Should some thought be given before we use someone else's words? What if they are incorrect?...Don't think so. Do you?"

    My intention in posting here was neither to defend nor denigrate Ms. Ernst's new book. It wasn't to argue either (it was to answer a question about a rifle cartridge). That said, outlaw history is, as far as I can tell, the study of ca. 100 year-old rumors--at least for the most part. There's never going to be much certainty and that leads to various theories and interpretations. That, for me, is what makes it so exciting. If you're hoping to find proof and capital T Truth in this subject... well, I'll just have to wish you good luck.
    As for wronging folks' ancestors and the intentions or skills of various history writers, I will steer clear of that entire subject as I have nothing to contribute.

  • Just A Reader
    March 15, 2009 10:49 p.m.

    Zeke, you should be respected for your honest opinion and thoughts. "Wronging folks' ancestors", not my doing either. Not involved.

    "Truth, intentions and skills of history writers", here we may differ. Should there not be standards, a code of ethics, in other words, when a "historian" publishes his/her work, should that work not be a result of the author's best, honest effort of, (to the best of his/her ability), to know what he/she says is factual, verified information. If other's information is used, the same process should also be applied.

    If this is not done, please tell me what purpose has been served, by writing what ever you feel like. Whether it really happened that way, is not an issue, according to you. With due respect, Zeke, I think then your "historian" has become a writer of fiction. When words are written that clearly describe unreasonable events. or in some cases, aren't even close, should there not be a limit Sir?
    If one does not write what happened, why write it?

    If you like sports, Zeke, when you read a final score, do you want it to accurate, or just close?

    JAR

  • Zeke
    March 15, 2009 11:51 p.m.

    "If you like sports, Zeke, when you read a final score, do you want it to accurate, or just close?"

    Yes, I like sports quite a bit. Outlaw history (well, any history I suppose) sure doesn't seem like sports; one doesn't get a clear final score. History seems to be a matter of discourse, debate, a search for clues, etc. It's a continuous process. There is no endpoint at which we can take a tally and point out a winner. I am not here to defend anyone (RE: "your "historian""). But if one were to write a history of the Wild Bunch with all the hearsay and unverifiable stories taken out, it would be a very short, much less interesting, and probably less informative body of work. If this Mississippi River business is such a big deal (who am I to judge?), hopefully the inaccuracy can be rectified by future researchers.
    If you think Ms. Ernst's book is such a misrepresentation of history you should consider complaining to the University of Oklahoma Press. I, on the other hand, thought it was a valuable contribution to the topic, flawed though it was in ways.

  • Zeke
    March 16, 2009 12:14 a.m.

    Basically, I wonder if this debate might be less contentious if all involved developed a little bit more tolerance for uncertainty. This sort of history leaves us with scenarios that likely, probably, possibly, or just might have occurred; not Truths. This uncertainty has always seemed implicit to me in reading on this topic, from Kelly and Horan up to the present. Outright dishonesty and trying to pass fiction off as fact is a bit of a different matter and can get an author in some trouble, especially with a university press. I don't see any evidence of anything rising to that level.
    With sports you get a cut-and-dried final score.
    With history (particularly of the 100 years-ago-outlaw sort) you get... well, it's messy.

    As we seem to have very different views of how folk history should be accumulated, that's all I'm inclined to say on the subject; I've described my view in more detail than was perhaps needed and that, rather than Ernst or Butch and Sundance, seems to be our point of disagreement.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    March 16, 2009 5:27 a.m.

    Oops, Mistyped. Need to check the Magdelena jail rather than Socorro.

  • A F
    March 16, 2009 6:51 a.m.

    Zeke, I can't help but wonder if you aren't my Senator! With all due respect, of course.

    Seems like reporting a sports score, is just stating what has happened. Should not history be similiar?

    It has been enjoyable, let's put it in the barn.

    A friend

  • Disintrested Observer
    March 16, 2009 8:20 a.m.

    Zeke:
    The game AF, Anon., JAR and others are playing is called discredit the historian. They are just going through Ernst's book picking out things to criticize. The main purpose is to discredit her by pointing out small flaws in her research, thereby hoping to discredit her and her book. Once this is done, they can then present Mr. Nickels findings with little opposition. This tactic rarely works, and usually shows the small mindedness of those who engage in it.

    Siringo pages 322 & 323 describe how Siringo loses the trail at the mouth of the Arkansas River on the Mississippi River. He calls one of the outlaws he was chasing Owens.

    Jeesh, what a bunch of snarky hacks.

  • Anonymous
    March 16, 2009 10:13 a.m.

    Disintrested Observer

    A historian is an individual who studies and writes about history, and is regarded as an authority on it. Historians are concerned with the continuous, systematic narrative and research of past events as relating to the human race; as well as the study of all events in time. Although "historian" can be used to describe amateur and professional historians alike, it is reserved more recently for those who have acquired graduate degrees in the discipline.

    "historian" can be used to describe amateur"
    Discredit the historian. Jeesh,

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 16, 2009 11:12 a.m.


    What is the significance of the Magdelena jail?

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 16, 2009 11:36 a.m.

    After the Wilcox robbery Charlie Siringo followed Butch and Elza Lays trail to southern Utah and then lost it. Butch and Elza went on to Alma New Mexico which Siringo never discovered. Siringo believing he was on their trail went through Colorado, Kansas, Indian Territory, Missouri, Tennessee and Mississippi. Donna Ernst is trying to follow Siringo and in this case Siringo was lost.

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 16, 2009 11:49 a.m.

    Come on now Disintrested Observer
    Read pages 188 198 in Ernst new book.
    Do you call that a small flaw?

  • Disintrested Observer
    March 16, 2009 12:48 p.m.

    Anonymous:
    So, do you consider David McCullough an "Historian?" He graduated in English Literature. I do believe Donna Ernst has written two books on Longabaugh, the last by University of Oklahoma Press, and your have published how many?

  • Disintrested Observer
    March 16, 2009 12:49 p.m.

    Mr. Nickle - and your problem with pages 188-198 is?

  • Disintrested Observer
    March 16, 2009 12:57 p.m.

    Oh, yes I think you called this a forgery.

  • Disintrested Observer
    March 16, 2009 1:02 p.m.

    Of course, you call anything that doesn't agree with your theory a forgery. How convenient.

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 16, 2009 1:28 p.m.

    There is nothing in pages 188-198 that conflict with my theory. Pages 188-1988 do conflict with recorded fact.

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 16, 2009 1:54 p.m.

    With my book I will refer primarily to the Pinkerton Files, Charlie Siringo. Donna Ernst, Marriage license. Death certificates, Census records and News paper articles of the time. For Bolivia I will use Horan. I see no reason to doubt Dan Bucks account of the Rio Galagos robbery. I will refer to the Frank Ahler account as given in Bucks book. I will not accuse anyone of faking documents or forgery. I will just ignore what I believe necessary. The family records I use will be made available for others to review.

  • Disintrested Observer
    March 16, 2009 1:54 p.m.

    The story may contain many inaccuracies, but that doesn't constitute a forgery. The Story was published in the April 17, 1912 edition of the Buenos Aires Standard as claimed by Mrs. Ernst.

  • Zeke
    March 16, 2009 2:29 p.m.

    Mr. Nickle,
    I honestly came to this subject--your claims about your grandfather--wanting very much to believe you. I know Dr. McCullough and trust him without question. However, the frequent irrational (I believe) claims you have made on this message board make it hard for me to take your theory seriously:
    "I will just ignore what I believe necessary."
    This is not how history should be written, even history of the frankly amateurish sort that passes in the study of outlaws! One cannot ignore what one believes to be fake--that HAS to be dealt with!
    Others' claims that history should be approached like physics--proved facts only--could be most easily directed at your stated approach to history. When a scientist finds evidence that refutes a theory, he/she must deal with that evidence, whether or not it proves to be accurate. To do otherwise is a recipe for bad science. Taking your supporters' approach to history, your approach to writing this book would prove to be egregiously bad history. Lets say the documents are fake (I'm no expert and honestly don't know), that needs to be investigated.

  • Zeke
    March 16, 2009 2:42 p.m.

    I truly do not mean to be rude by saying these things. I really do hope that DNA proves you are correct.
    It's just that one cannot criticize an author for including an article from a ancient magazine in an appendix, and then claim he will ignore contrary accounts in his own book! It is obvious that the article is impossible to verify and is to be interpreted by the reader as to its accuracy. There is no way to claim this was included in bad faith, though Ernst could have gone to greater lengths to point out some of its more unbelievable claims--I have a hard time believing any details of the locomotive chase scene!
    You need to make at least some effort to validate (note that I didn't say prove) your forgery claims. Proof of much of anything is probably impossible to come by in our case, but just because one says something is true doesn't make it so.
    I hope I am not coming across too harshly because I really am sad about the contentious tone this whole thing has taken on.

  • Disintrested Observer
    March 16, 2009 3:07 p.m.

    Zeke
    I hope you do not think I was referring to Dr. McCullough of the University of Utah. I am sure his credentials are impeccable, and that he is a good scientist. I was actually referring to David McCullough the Historian and author of several acclaimed books including "John Adams" and "1776"

    Thank you for your insights.

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 16, 2009 3:10 p.m.

    Zeke Writes
    "Outright Dishonesty and trying to pass off fiction as fact is a bit of a different matter and can get an author in some trouble, especially with a university press. I dont see any evidence of anything rising to that level."

    In Ernst book on page 130 it refers to a Pinkerton memo then using this memo as a source Ernst states, Sundance and Etta checked into the Pierce Medical Institute in Buffalo New York in January 1901. I have that Pinkerton memo and it states they were at the Buffalo hospital in the summer of 1901. Does this rise to your level?

  • Anonymous
    March 16, 2009 3:19 p.m.

    I'm waiting to read how light was invented by a Utahan.

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 16, 2009 3:23 p.m.

    Disintrested Observer | 1:54 p.m. March 16, 2009
    The story may contain many inaccuracies, but that doesn't constitute a forgery. The Story was published in the April 17, 1912 edition of the Buenos Aires Standard as claimed by Mrs. Ernst.


    Doesnt Danna Ernst have a responsibility to point out the many inaccuracies and question the validly of this story?
    Is the original document off limits for me to review?

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    March 16, 2009 3:31 p.m.

    Allegedly and I use the word advisedly, at the end of a 1901 trail drive for the WS, an indivdual going by the name Harry Longabaugh, was signed into the jail to sleep it off. the last time I was in Magdalena coming back from a hasty trip to Whitewater Canyon near Alma, I neglected to stop and check, I have looked for the reference, but not exhaustively. I tend to write references on whatever pad I have with me at the time and later I can not find the reference.

    The following references have Butch, Sundance and Ethel in Buenos Aries in 1901:
    Marcelo Gavirati:
    Buscados en la Patagonia.
    La historia no contada de Butch Cassidy

    Raul Cea

    Jarred Jones in a 1941 interview

    and

    Patterson

    Kelly has it in '02 but gives zip references.

    The 01 trail to the River Platte Bank seems to be based on Jorge Newbery.

    The difficulty I have is that anouncing new theories before that are fully vetted, is that they take on lives of their own and are endlessly repeated like the canard that Tom Horn won a Congressional Metal of Honor or that William Phillps was really Butch.




  • Zeke
    March 16, 2009 3:39 p.m.

    Disinterested Observer:
    "I hope you do not think I was referring to Dr. McCullough of the University of Utah."

    No, nothing to do with that. Dr. McCullough is the anthropologist who is working on the DNA comparison. They just happen to have the same last name... my comment had nothing to do with your.

    Mr. Nickle:
    "Does this rise to your level?"
    I am no authority on this or Pinkerton files so I'm not sure why you're asking me. Speculating wildly, it might be a citation error, it might be an honest mistake, a purposeful misrepresentation, or you may be confused about the files referenced or which file or files are referenced. There's no way for me to know so I'll stay out of it except to say that if there is historical fabrication going on here, I'm sure the University of Oklahoma Press would be interested in knowing about it (they have a very good reputation to maintain!).

  • Hoosier Historian
    March 16, 2009 3:40 p.m.

    Would like Zeke's thoughts on the following two stories, about history.

    John Dillenger born 1904, died 1940. He was born and raised in Martinsville, OH. He and a friend robbed a gas station, John went to jail, the friend did not. After jail, where John met and became friends with Clyde Barrow and Machine Gun Kelly, his life of crime commenced. Melvin Purvis, head of the FBI, moved him to Public Enemy # 1, he was the third criminal named as #1. He escaped jail in Ft. Wayne, IN,. by kidnapping the Sherriff. John died in a hail of bullets at the Little Bohemia Lodge, in North central Wisconsin, in 1940. He was shot by John E. Hoover, agent in charge, Northern Dist of Wisconsin.

    H H (A different version will follow)

  • Hoosier Historian
    March 16, 2009 3:48 p.m.

    John Dillinger was born 6-22-03 in Indianapolis, IN. He spent most of his youth in Morresville, IN. Here as a young man, with a friend, they tried to rob a small grocery store. Dillingers family had little money, he went to jail. His friend had money, he avoided jail.
    In jail, John met some less than desirable men. This soon led to a life of crime. Soon, he had the attention of J Edgar Hoover, FBI, who named Dillinger the first, Public Enemy #1. Dillinger could think and he had nerve. He escaped from a jail in Crown Point, IN., using a shoe polish stained wooden pistol.
    On the evening of 7-22-34, Melvin Purvis and other FBI men, ended Dillingers career, in an alley beside the Biograph Theater in Chicago.

    A favorite story a friend tells: the radio was broadcasting news that Dillinger had just robbed a bank in Kansas. My friend said, knew it was not true, John was sitting in a car across the street,in Mooresville, talking to my sister.

    Which do you like better Zeke?

    One has a lot of factual information, the other hardly any.

    H H

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 16, 2009 3:56 p.m.

    HCC
    Are you saying Marcelo Gavirati is more credible than the Pinkerton files?

    I would not be surprised if Harry Longabaugh was in jail at the end of the 1901 trail drive in Magdalena You realize of course what this means for Marcelo Gavirati.

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 16, 2009 4:12 p.m.

    If Harry longabaugh was in jail at the end of 1901 this would be the only time he used his real name since the he became an escaped fugitive for the Nov 29, 1892 Malta train robbery. I doubt the person in the Magdalena jail was Sundance.

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 16, 2009 4:15 p.m.

    Zeke
    I will be glad to fax or email you that Pinkerton memo. You dont have to be an expert to understand this.

  • Zeke
    March 16, 2009 4:33 p.m.

    HH:
    "Which do you like better Zeke?"

    I don't like either one. I have no context. Context is everything. I don't know who you are, who wrote the accounts, what their sources are, what more knowledgable people than myself have written about the accounts, I don't have access to the arguments between historians involved, etc., etc. Moreover, I don't know anything about Dillinger other than he was a criminal nor do I have any interest in him.

    So, I have no clue which is more accurate and I'm not sure what presenting two accounts with no context is supposed to prove. (With Ernst there is context: various other books and documents. As evident on this board, various people have formed various opinions using this context).

    In the interest of the wild speculation you're asking me for, I'd imagine there's a lot more validated historical documentation of Dillinger's life than there is for Sundance; especially given his era being closer to ours. But I'm not an expert on Dillinger and I don't want to be.

  • Zeke
    March 16, 2009 4:40 p.m.

    Mr. Nickle,
    You could put it up on your website. I'd certainly enjoy seeing it. Can I email you through your website? I appreciate the offer.

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 16, 2009 4:43 p.m.

    HCC
    Who vetted Marcelo Gavirati or pages 188-198 or 130 in Ernst book? Who do you suggest vet my work Dan Buck? Vetting has not been done until now, with me doing the vetting.

  • Duchesne County Roots
    March 16, 2009 4:50 p.m.

    My gut feeling says this guy was the Sundance Kid. I haven't done any research! I am a decendant of the Morrell family.

  • Zeke
    March 16, 2009 4:53 p.m.

    Mr. Nickle,
    On further investigation, Ms. Ernst (unfortunately) doesn't cite a particular Pinkerton document. It seems possible (likely even) that there may be more than one relevent document with contradictory information in the Pinkerton archives. So there's really not much to go on in terms of professional misconduct, at least given what I can see. It may not be totally convincing research but it is no worse than what you propose to do in ignoring contradictory documents in your forthcoming book.

  • Anonymous
    March 16, 2009 5:15 p.m.

    Oh Mr. Zeke,

    Does your need of "context" refer to having a lot of other prople's opinions? Probably, more inaccurate than not? Dillinger, Sundance, anyone you want, I would guess their is an abundance of "context" available. My guess is the HH was trying to illustrate the difference in what is probably close to the truth snd one that is not. Say a "historian" uses one of them in a future publication, do you now have context?

    Some would still hope to read about what really happened. Try reading Harv Murdock's book about his Grandfather, Elzy Lay. His context .... he was there. Facts Sir not based on what someone has said or written.

  • Anonymous
    March 16, 2009 5:50 p.m.

    For a 'disintrested Observer" you seem to be wasting a lot of ink.

  • Zeke
    March 16, 2009 5:55 p.m.

    Anon.:
    Mr. Murdock's book is in the mail.

    Go ahead and pick and choose your accounts of what "really happened." Facts are not based on what you say or choose to believe or what Ms. Ernst or Mr. Murdock say either, for that matter (not that I doubt his account, I haven't even read his book yet).
    I'm done with this discussion. It has become completely asinine. Neither you nor I know for sure what the happened in 1901 or 1908 and we probably never will. You may choose to put your faith in one account over another while I do not. While that may clarify things in your own mind, it does nothing to convince me or anyone else that your purported critical thinking and intuitive skills have identified what "really happened." Your condescending, arrogant, and laughable belief that you have a monopoly on truth has become more than tiresome. The anonymity of the internet forum certainly seems to bring out the worst in people (perhaps myself included).

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 16, 2009 5:56 p.m.

    There is only one Pinkerton memo that refers to the Buffalo hospital and that memo states they were there in the summer of 1901 not Jan 1901.

  • Zeke
    March 16, 2009 6:02 p.m.

    "For a 'disintrested Observer" you seem to be wasting a lot of ink."

    At the risk of speaking for someone else:
    "Disinterested" in this Context means he isn't taking sides. Yes, it's called "context" and it's important in understanding the English language as well as history. Through context we may understand meaning (or not).
    Now I'm really done.

    Zeke

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 16, 2009 6:06 p.m.

    Every author since Charles Kelly has Butch Sundance and Etta in New York City the first week of Feb 1901. They were not there. What these authors have done is just accept what had been written. The first week of Feb 1901 is the key to this whole mystery, including Etta Place, and I found it.

  • Anonymous
    March 16, 2009 7:05 p.m.

    Disintrested Observer
    So, do you consider Kerry Ross Boren an "Historian?"

    Kerry Ross Boren has authored numerous books and published articles in many periodicals, including the Chicago Tribune, National Geographic, and Bibliotheque Nationale in Paris, France. He is the founder of many associations, including the National Center and Association for Outlaw and Lawman History (NOLA) and Western Historical Research Associates. He was the recipient of the 1976 Bicentennial Award from Cambridge University for his contribution to research. As a motion picture consultant, he has worked on many films, including Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid and Against a Crooked Sky. He assisted Alex Haley with research on his books Roots and Queen.

  • Anonymous
    March 16, 2009 7:35 p.m.

    What Zeke states. "Facts are not based on what you say or choose to believe or what Ms. Ernst or Mr. Murdock say either, for that matter"

    Anon says the following. "Facts Sir are not based on what someone has said or written."

    Before you ride into the sunset Mr. Zeke, would you like to compare the above two statements?

    I humbly offer a thought. The argument against Mrs. Ernst is not at her knowledge of "history". No one absolutely "knows". I believe the issues here are more in "accuracy of what is written" not knowledge. Like "heading west from St.Paul,MN., then nearing Duluth. The Malta robbers all standing around with empty rifles. Mrs. Ernst saying, the trail was lost at the Mississippi. (she did not say where one river met another) Her first book, saying Harv Logan's three brothers were his cousins. (corrected in her new book) Again giving a wrong publishing date for Lula Betenson's book. There are others.

    Zeke, this isn't "putting faith" in anyone, it is pointing out stupid mistakes that should be caught before publishing.

    Hopefully our school books are looked at more carefully. I wonder.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    March 16, 2009 7:43 p.m.

    Jerry,

    The basic rule is to approach any problem with an open mind. Ignoring those with whom you disagree without at least mentioning their theories in your forth coming book is less than objective. As I see your theory, it is that Sundance and Butch participated in the Malta Robbery. Ergo, every writer who contends otherwise is wrong and has "forged" the sources upon which they rely. For your theory to be correct, Sundance dashes back from Alberta to get married, stays around for several years, deserts his wife, children and step children to participate in various robberies and ride for the WS, proceeds to Texas, New York and Argentina, stays for several years and returned as a loving husband to his wife and children and lived happily ever after.

    As has been pointed out, the Pinkertons, like J Edgar Hoover, lovingly collected every rumor. And indeed could not agree with themselves as to the duo's death. They could not even decide as to Harvey Logan's death. All of that needs to be dealt with and not ignored. It is obvious that you have a closed mind. Thus, this old cowboy rides off into the sunset.

  • Disintrested Observer
    March 16, 2009 7:56 p.m.

    It seems that you place a lot of emphasis in proving that Butch Sundance and Etta were still in the U.S. in 1901. I assume that is so that you can place Sundance in Fremont beating up on George Morrell in October of 1901. So then, if it can be shown that they were in Argentina in 1901 then your whole argument falls apart. You know, even if you can "prove" that they didn't go to Argentina until 1902, proving that Sundance and Bill Long are one and the same will still be impossible unless you can provide a document from Bill claiming he was Sundance or visa verse.

  • Disintrested Observer
    March 16, 2009 8:21 p.m.

    Horse Creek Cowboy: Well said, context, context, context.

    Bye to all

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 16, 2009 8:26 p.m.

    Three months and counting.

  • Anonymous
    March 17, 2009 7:55 a.m.

    Disintrested Observer
    When the foremost authority on outlaw history doesn't agree with the outlaw historian/researcher, Kerry Ross Boren, he goes to extraordinary lengths to expose the flaws in his research, (excerpts form his web site.) Controversial outlaw researcher, Kerry Ross Boren embellished the version of the incident. (Embellished, liar?) Kerry Ross Boren, an outlaw historian, who confected documents, (Confected, forgery?) to support the tale in an effort to prove that Butch and Sundance had not died in Bolivia.
    The main purpose is to discredit Boren, by pointing out flaws in his research. D.O., wouldnt you call this playing discredit the historian?
    Of course, as you point out, this tactic rarely works, and usually shows the small mindedness of those who engage in it.

  • Another ANM
    March 17, 2009 8:47 a.m.

    Isn't it astounding, how those that deal in the truth, have no problem with it.

    Then there are those, that truth has no meaning for at all. They have no clue how to deal with it. Sadly for these folks, truth is something to be ignored and overlooked.

    By now, we all know Mr. Buck "discredits" any and all, who question his opinions. Let's not "dig up" him up again. But ANM's comments are rather accurate.

    AANM

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 17, 2009 9:31 a.m.

    Just like bullies on a playground, you seem to have chased off Zeke, Horse Creek Cowboy, and Disinterested Observer. You should be proud of yourselves for not being able to conduct a civil conversation.

    As for your comments concerning Kerry Ross Boren - any credibility that he had disappeared once he murdered his wife. Have you seen his piece on Etta Place or on Butch Cassidy? An interesting weave of fact and fiction created to decieve.

  • TM
    March 17, 2009 9:50 a.m.

    Late to the party...Has the DNA results been posted?

  • Mr. A Non M
    March 17, 2009 10:12 a.m.

    "Ghosttown Bob | 8:04 a.m. Feb. 18, 2009"
    "I wish the Deseret News would get their facts straight before they publish stories like this one."

    Finally recalled where the boss agreed with me. His statement seems to be saying what has been said about the new Sundance book. It must depend on who says it, for it to be all right. Hope you (GTB) don't "chase" away anyone with your honest and correct statement.

    Thanks for agreeing with what I have been saying all along.

    Mr. A N M

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 17, 2009 10:33 a.m.

    TM: No, the DNA results have not been posted. Three months and counting.

  • Randall
    March 17, 2009 10:40 a.m.

    Still Chasing Your "Tales"?
    Butch & The Kid's Favorite Condiment.
    Fry Sauce From The Oakley Polar King.


  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 17, 2009 10:45 a.m.

    Mr. A N M: I will quote by earlier post: "Column 1, page B8 of the Utah section fourth paragraph down of the printed edition it says: "Oct 24, 1910." In the context of this article, and the previous one in December, this "typo" would make it appear that the shooting incident occurred after Jerry claims that Sundance returned from So. America which is a misrepresentation and needs a correction from the News. If it was a typo, and not intentional, then the copy editor should have caught it."

    Yes I do agree with you, Mrs. Ernst's book does contain some mistakes and typos. The typos, her editor at the University of Oklahoma press should of corrected. Any subsequent printing should contain the corrections. Her other so-called errors you-all seem to be adept at pointing out. Why spend all of your time trying to tear her down when you should be trying to build up Jerry's case.

  • Anonymous
    March 17, 2009 10:56 a.m.

    GTB: "Just like bullies on a playground, you seem to have chased off Zeke, Horse Creek Cowboy, and Disinterested Observer. You should be proud of yourselves for not being able to conduct a civil conversation."

    Ghosttown Bob | 10:33 a.m. March 17, 2009
    TM: "No, the DNA results have not been posted. Three months and counting."

    We understand your opinion GTB, (you are close to overcooking your view) don't you know a different song to sing. Instead of answering questions that were directed to Mr. Nickle, why don't you address the questions just asked of you?

  • Just A Non
    March 17, 2009 11:30 a.m.

    Our GTB sayeth: "Why spend all of your time trying to tear her down when you should be trying to build up Jerry's case."

    Bringing attention to actual errors, mis-statements, mis-leading information, etc., doesn't qualify as "tearing down" someone. It is simply pointing out things that should never have been written, as she did. Then to compound these issues, it was published. Read what her book says, GTB. I am bringing things to your atention that happened, she wrote them. Period. It might even do you some good to reread your above noted "statement".

    As for Jerry's "case". First, I don't know. Second, I have doubts about his theory. Third, I am not going to pre-judge like you and "others" have done. The man deserves for ALL the information to be presented, then (if he is not correct) you can scream to all, he was wrong, just like your pal, D Buck was.

    To be fair to Jerry, yes I have doubts about his Mr. Long. I have stronger doubts about Mr. Zimmer. Don't you?

    JAN

  • TM
    March 17, 2009 11:34 a.m.

    Thanks for the info. I find this all very interesting. What lives and times these peopled lived. The thought of completely disappearing into History and keeping all those stories to one self is amazing to me... If they survived... It could not be done today. I hope they (Parker, Longabaugh and Place) found peace and a life back in the U.S.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 17, 2009 11:35 a.m.

    I will answer you question with your own words, now directed to you: "I prefer to defend the high ground and bait my advisory into a defenseless position. . . Youve once again proven some people just can not resist telling how smart they are and how dumb [the rest of us] are. . . every time you respond to. . . posts, it tells us more about you and what you really know about William Henry Long, than you realize." You, Jerry, and the rest have not, in over 300 posts, provided anything more about William Henry Long that was not known from reading the two articles by Geoff. You, Anonymous have been rude, overbearing, duplicitous, and concerned only about proving how much "research" you have done to the exclusion of others. No, you do not know it all, but you are a know-it-all.

  • Anonymous
    March 17, 2009 12:02 p.m.

    "I will answer you question with your own words, now directed to you: "I prefer to defend the high ground and bait my advisory into a defenseless position." PRAY TELL WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

    As for Jerry's "case". First, I don't know. Second, I have doubts about his theory. Third, I am not going to pre-judge like you and "others" have done. The man deserves for ALL the information to be presented, then (if he is not correct) you can scream to all, he was wrong, just like your pal, D Buck was.

    To be fair to Jerry, yes I have doubts about his Mr. Long. I have stronger doubts about Mr. Zimmer. Don't you?

    THE LAST TWO PARAGRAPHS ABOVE WERE MY LATEST RESPONSE TO YOU. With all due respect GTB, you Sir are not only on the wrong page, you are holding the wrong book and apparently are not even in the same library. Follow your own advice, "get your facts straight before you go to print".


    I think you better rest a bit.

    JAN

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 17, 2009 12:35 p.m.

    JAN: I was responding to Anonymous in the 10:56 a.m. post not to Just A Non in the 11:30 a.m. post. If you are one and the same, my apologies; at least I am using a handle that is recognizable and not hiding under a pseudonym someone else is using.

    Why all of the shouting? I think you are the one that needs a rest.

    As for Mr. Zimmer, At least Mr. Buck admitted that he was not Butch or Sundance. That still doesn't mean that they were not killed in San Vicente, just that Buck dug up the wrong grave.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 17, 2009 12:40 p.m.

    TM's question was not directed to anyone in particular. I think you-all are all embarrassed that the DNA is not forthcoming.

    Hey Randell: I am getting a big urge for a burger and fries. Maybe if I drive over to Oakley I'll run into Butch and we can rehash old times.

  • JAN
    March 17, 2009 12:59 p.m.

    "Why all of the shouting?"

    Does the truth come thru a little too loud for you GTB? Like it was said, "some just can't handle it".

    I think you finally said something that makes sense, after your same old "song" and dance, over and over, I think I need a rest.

    JAN

  • TM
    March 17, 2009 1:04 p.m.

    The thing that struck me about Parker, Longabaugh and Place starting over again in Agentina was the house they built (Looking at photo's I have seen on the internet)of the rough cabin they built resembles Parker's own home cabin in Utah. I can understand wanting to keep a low profile and not draw a lot of attention to themselves...However, with other Europeans in the area, and with Place and to some degree Parker and Longabaugh, appreciating the finner things in life I thought they would have wanted to build a much nicer and more comfortable home to start a new life. If I read correctly they had a large ranch and heard of cattle as well as horses.

  • Whatever
    March 17, 2009 3:55 p.m.

    Ghosttown Bob,
    As you stated, Kerry Ross Boren - any credibility that he had disappeared once he murdered his wife.
    Credibility: Exactly my point, why would our foremost authority state on his web site, Lula Parker Betenson came up with a completely new version of Butch and Sundance's "deaths," which she had obtained from controversial outlaw researcher, Kerry Ross Boren. On another web site, he says, In her book, Lula related an account of Butch's death, that sounds as if she had simply split the differences among what she had picked up from Baker, Sundance, Jr., Boren, and others: Co-author, Dora Flack stated I assure you that Lula was not influenced by Kerry Boren (whom we both knew) or Harry Longabaugh Jr., or any others.
    Our Foremost Authority knew that by claiming Lula Parker Betenson used Kerry Ross Borens account of the death of Butch and Sundance, that it would create a credibility issue for Lulas claim, that Butch had returned. And finally, he implies that Lula suffers from a "corroded memory".

  • Whatever
    March 17, 2009 3:57 p.m.

    Continued:
    These multiple posts on Boren, on a previous blog, leaves no doubt what Mr. Buck himself thought of Boren, as an historian. Mr. Buck inserted Kerry Ross Boren into the argument against the Betensons for one purpose, to discredit Lula Parker Betenson.

    Posted by Daniel Buck |17 Nov 3:17 PM 17 Nov 3:18 PM Nov 3:19 PM 17 Nov 3:20 PM
    P.S. My mention of Kerry Ross Boren, the Baron Munchaesen of the outlaw history world, was a lampoonic remark about those attracted to bandit reincarnations, not a recommendation to lap up his writings. His claims to be the heir to the throne of Ireland as well as a descendant of Montezuma speak for themselves He is also related to just about any Old West figure you care to name. And, by the by, he did not simply murder his wife, he beat her to death; days later he called the authorities to say she was having trouble breathing. The coroner determined that at the time of his call she had been dead for a couple days.

  • The Anonymous One
    March 17, 2009 5:10 p.m.

    Ghosttown Bob,
    Anonymous: My last post directed at you was | 5:26 p.m. March 6, 2009.
    My goodness, I believe you have tried to insult me Bob, No, you do not know it all, but you are a know-it-all.
    I agree, I do not know it all, actually I know very little, what I do know is about 20 times more than you know. Unfortunately, that makes you a know nothing.
    Anonymous | 10:56 a.m. March 17, 2009 Youll have to forgive Bob, for he knows nothing.

  • A C
    March 17, 2009 5:56 p.m.

    "Our Foremost Authority implies that Lula suffers from a "corroded memory".

    I am told the above statement by Buck was denied (by Buck) a few years ago, in Rock Springs. Wyoming. In fact, it was!

    You see, since the "Foremost A", has never (and most likely never will) prove what he "thinks", he now believes that if he states that everyone else is wrong----WOW, then he will be right. Really sad!

    He will not stand behind what he says or writes---this has already been shown, (more than) enough of Buck and his disgusting methods.

    If anyone, Buck included, wishes to discuss Mrs. Betenson's mind, let it happen. I am glad to know people that were friends of Lula, that were with her at the very end, that will gladly explain this area to "the Foremost Authority". Anytime, anywhere.

    I'm sure most of you know, Buck never met Mrs. Betenson. From his viewpoint, probably just as well.

    Thank tou, Whatever. Since what you said is true, you better hold on to your hat.

    AC

  • Anonymous
    March 17, 2009 6:13 p.m.

    Does anyone know if there is any truth to what I have heard, a time or two, about Buck writing to Dora Flack (Mrs. Betenson's co-author) asking Mrs. Flack, if she thought Lula was telling the "truth"?

    If that did happen, it seems terribly insulting to Mrs. Flack, as well, of course to Mrs. Betenson.

    Thank you.

  • writer11313
    March 18, 2009 1:26 p.m.

    Gaylen Robison - Very interesting information you gave about your family. Seems like that would be enough to keep the naysayers quiet, but in truth, I don't think anyone wants to truely find Sundance, Butch or Etta. If we know exactly what happened to them then where would all the fun be? It will be interesting to me to find out if this turns out to be Sundance.

  • Anonymous
    March 19, 2009 2:17 p.m.

    Do truth & facts keep the raven from knocking at my chamber door?

  • Interested
    March 19, 2009 2:26 p.m.

    I have heard the same about the letter, mentioned below.

    "Does anyone know if there is any truth to what I have heard, a time or two, about Buck writing to Dora Flack (Mrs. Betenson's co-author) asking Mrs. Flack, if she thought Lula was telling the "truth"?"

    I

  • Randall
    March 19, 2009 3:39 p.m.

    Where the heck is the DNA report after 3 months?
    Pass the fry sauce...

  • Gaylen Robison
    March 19, 2009 9:18 p.m.

    TM. You are a nice person. I appreciate your comment of March 17th. I don't know for sure whatever happened to Robert Leroy Parker and Etta Place, but Great Grandpa Long (Henry Alonzo Longabaugh) did find a life of peace after he came home to Wayne County, Utah to a loving wife and family. He fathered two special daughters and taught them well. After that they moved to the Uintah Basin about 1918. Who would ever think of looking for him there? Fact is, some did come looking for him but nobody would tell. He was thought well of and had respect and a good reputation at Duchesne for the rest of his life.

  • TM
    March 20, 2009 9:24 a.m.

    To all. My interest is just as someone that has an appreciation for history and the biographies of interesting historical characters. The anticipated DNA results of Mr. Long, if comes back positive and proves that Longabaugh did in fact return will open all kinds of new doors! If true it will at least provide a new path from the generally accepted and cutrrent opinion that Parker and Longabaugh last ride ended in San Vincente. While the photo that I have seen of Mr. Long is not dated I do agree that at a first glance there doeas appear a strong resemblance; however when comparing the Ft Worth photo of Longabaugh the right ear lobe, which as I understand is a high marker when making comparisons between photos of individuals appears to be different when reviewing the two photos. I await the DNA results with great anticipation.

  • TM
    March 20, 2009 11:43 a.m.

    Question concerning Buck's Salt Lake Tribune article of 1901? Has anyone verified that this article or reviewed other than Buck? As I understand the claim is that Mr. Long was in the States when Longabaugh was suppose to be in South America? If this has been addressed in the past comments please forgive the repeat for info.

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 20, 2009 2:39 p.m.

    Please go to my web site where you can see the side-by-side photographs Dr. McCullough used to do the comparison.
    I will gladly email to anyone three separate Pinkerton memos showing Butch and Sundance were in the USA in 1901.
    Do a search for Jerry Nickle Sundance Kid to find my web site and leave a message

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 21, 2009 9:50 a.m.

    TM: The reported shooting incident between George Morrell and William Long was was originally referenced by me, not Buck. He only followed up on my original post. The incident was reported not only in the Salt Lake Tribune which Buck mentioned, but also in the Deseret News Oct. 24, 1901 issue and in the Ogden Standard Examiner Oct 24, 1901 issue. The Ogden paper has additional interesting details like "Long went as usual on his land to turn the water..." These articles can be found on Utah's Historical Newspaper project website.

    Good Luck

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 21, 2009 9:52 a.m.

    Randall, don't expect results anytime soon.

    Uh. . . Er. . you going to eat all of those fries?

  • Anonymous
    March 21, 2009 2:08 p.m.

    OGDEN STANDERED EXAMINER Oct 24, 1901
    Loa, Oct, 21 A shooting scrape occurred at Fremont, about five miles north of loa, this morning between 6 and 7 oclock in which George Morrell was shot in the head by Wm. Long. The wound is not considered as dangerous as the beating he got on the head with a 44-calibre after he was shot. The wounded man will live, but he exhibits an ugly appearance.
    The trouble began over water. Morrell sent Long word that he (Morrell) didnt want to see him (Long) on a certain piece land using water. Long went as usual on his land to turn the water, when Morrell appeared and the shooting followed.

  • Double Eagle
    March 21, 2009 5:30 p.m.

    Butch and Sundance were known to pistol whip their victims, rather than kill them. Therefore, you could say that in the Oct 24, 1901 scrape between George Morrell and Wm. Long, that Long resorted to the tried and proven method, he had employed as Sundance and pistol whipped George Morrell, rather than kill him.
    ????????

  • Anonymous
    March 22, 2009 3:42 p.m.

    This "pistol whipping" is interesting. If our boys came up behind someone to hit then over the head, that seems rather a cowardly thing to do.

    If they came at them from the front, what is this person doing while B or S walks up to them and hits them over the head? Doesn't it seem likely. that if you are wearing a gun and a person confronts you with a drawn gun (needs to be drawn to use as a club) wouldn't you run, draw your own gun and shoot, not just stand there to be "pistol whipped". Or maybe the victims had no weapon at all, now we are back to cowardly.

    Doesn't seem like a smart thing to do.

    Who started this tale?

  • Anonymous
    March 22, 2009 4:48 p.m.

    Butch and Sundance did not use the Marcus of Queensbury rules when they robbed their victims

  • Name
    March 24, 2009 11:23 a.m.

    Salt Lake City TV station KSL will air Dr McCulloughs Photo comparison Mar 17, at 10:00 PM

  • Name
    March 24, 2009 11:43 a.m.

    Correction
    Salt Lake City TV station KSL will air Dr McCulloughs Photo comparison Mar 26, at 10:00 PM

  • Name
    March 24, 2009 11:46 a.m.

    Correction #2
    Salt Lake City TV station KSL will air Dr McCulloughs Photo comparison Mar 24, at 10:00 PM

  • TM
    March 25, 2009 11:32 a.m.

    Jerry, Do you know the dates of the two photo's you have; Long standing alone and the other seated with his wife?

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 25, 2009 1:30 p.m.

    I do not know the date of the one with Long standing alone. My guess is 1891-1892 in Wyoming or Montana. The one where he is seated with his wife was taken in 1921 in Loa Utah.

  • Zeke
    March 25, 2009 5:12 p.m.

    Out of curiosity, has anyone compared handwriting samples between Longabaugh and Long? There are a couple of existing letters from Harry Longabaugh (not that I ever remember seeing them, except in type). It might strengthen or weaken the case a bit depending on the outcome.

  • Gaylen Robison
    March 25, 2009 10:04 p.m.

    Hi Zeke. My mother told me that her grandpa Long was illiterate. He was never seen writing anything. He didn't even sign his own marriage certificate. That's a pretty good cover. If he was illiterate, how was it that he had thousands of dollars in the bank in Duchesne. That money disappeared when the bank closed due to the Crash of twenty nine. My grandma, his daughter, told me that. He told family members that he had buried gold coins out at the Robbers Roost in a fire pit. He would have tried to retrieve it himself but he could not ride a horse anymore due to his physical condition at the time. The mystery gets better all the time doesn't it?

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 26, 2009 7:05 a.m.

    Thanks Gaylen, One more proof that Longabaugh and Long are not the same person. Harry Longabaugh was literate and wrote several letters. William Long was illiterate and could not even sign his name.

  • Gaylen Robison
    March 26, 2009 9:58 a.m.

    Ghosttown Bob. You might have something there. After all, most illiterate men back in that day had lots of money in the bank and plenty of gold coins buried out at Robbers Roost. Yup! nothin like bein prepared.

  • Anonymous
    March 26, 2009 10:11 a.m.

    "One more proof that Longabaugh and Long are not the same person. Harry Longabaugh was literate and wrote several letters. William Long was illiterate and could not even sign his name."

    Hey GTB, we are getting sick and tired of all your "pre" knowledge. It is certainly possible that Long is not Sundance. You have pointed that out till I am fed up seeing it. Why don't you further display your talents and tell us the likelihood of Gustov Zimmer not being Butch Cassidy. For crying out loud, play something different.

    I will presume you made all the same noise prior to Buck's discovery in So. Am. Don't you get tired of hearing yourself?

  • TM
    March 26, 2009 11:40 a.m.

    I'm getting way ahead of the game here...but if Long is Sundance...Geeze..Do we assume that Butch made it back also?. Did they stay intouch or decide to seperate and go in different directions? Did some event cause a break in their relationship? Were they able to go straight and give up a talent that they were very skilled? Are their any unsolved bank robberies in the area after 1909? What about Ethel/Etta...Did Long search for her? Did she survive? What a story and what stories to be unearthed if proven true. Ahhh...part of me wants to believe they got away and never were caught. Go figure cheering for the outlaws! Well the DNA will tell this tell one way or the other..But I can't help think what if!

  • Anonymous
    March 26, 2009 3:00 p.m.

    Another one of Bobs tall tales. Hes not credible, ignore him.

    Ghosttown Bob said, I, for one do not spend all of my spare time on this comment board like some people apparently do. Since I have a life, I don't ever spend more that a half hour a day or so on this.

    As Dbuck put it, hes an obscurant, troll, and discussant.

  • Autumn
    March 26, 2009 3:13 p.m.

    Does anyone know any kind of time frame on these DNA results? I know it says 4-8 weeks, but I've been (eagerly) following this discussion for about a month now and am excited to see the outcome. Not that I don't enjoy watching you fine folks bandy words about, of course, I just wondered if there was any update as to when they will be in.

    P.S. Good Luck, Jerry, I can't help but be on your side...it's too exciting not to be.

  • Gaylen Robison
    March 26, 2009 10:56 p.m.

    Hi TM. Now that you mention it, there was at least one bank robbery since 1909 that I know about that involved Harry Longabaugh, it was the crash of 1929. That was when the Duchesne Bank robbed Bill. It is said of him: "He robbed the bank, then the bank robbed him." That is a saying in the family. Thank you friend.

  • TM
    March 27, 2009 6:42 a.m.

    Dear G.B.

    I did think to myself that if Cassidy and Sundance were indeed around during the crash of 29 that they must have thought to themselves "if onle we were younger"! We might well would have heard of them resuming old habits!

  • Fencepost
    March 27, 2009 8:05 a.m.

    I met and heard JN last night and saw his passion for the issues. He seemed to me very sincere, and his interest in HL is to find out the truth. Sorry to see all of you "self-interested" folks trying to discredit him. Are not we all looking at history here, where none of us really have all of the facts, and probably never will? The preponderance of evidence I am getting from "folklore" in Duchesne, Wayne, and Emery Counties is pointing to the fact that both Sundance and Butch lived long lives in the US after they supposedly were killed in Bolivia. Why don't we all just wait for the DNA which will end the bickering. Fascinating to think about the books and movies forthcoming if JN is right!

  • TM
    March 27, 2009 9:06 a.m.

    G.R. Please excuse my rush and typo of G.B. above. Typing to fast.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 27, 2009 9:49 a.m.

    Fencepost: I also think that Jerry is very sincere and is generally interested in finding the truth. I also think that he is being "fleeced" by a few people that are only interested in using him to make themselves rich and famous. Because of their "encouragement" it has made him blind to some other, just as interesting, possibilities concerning William Long. William Long's story is just as interesting without him being the Sundance Kid. I have no doubt that he was connected in some ways with the "Wild Bunch," and when his real story comes out, it may make for better reading than if he were Harry Longabaugh. Please don't put on blinders and ignore other fascinating possibilities.

  • TM
    March 27, 2009 9:52 a.m.

    G.R. and JN.
    Did I read correctly that HWL bore two daughters with Luzernia? Did they survive and are any of their children alive that DNA can be compared to Longabaugh's family in PA if their is difficulty with HWL DNA?

  • Gaylen Robison
    March 27, 2009 1:34 p.m.

    TM. Yes, there is my Mother who is in an assisted living home. She is Viola's daughter (Viola is the first born of Bill Long and Luzernia). There are others. But do to my respect for my cousins privacy and opinions I won't go any further with this, but instead leave it up to Jerry Nickle and his assistants to decide what to do about it. They have spent a fortune and a lot of time searching for the answers and don't plan on giving up until the job is finished. As far as I'm concerned, the photo transparencies are more convincing than a DNA result read to me. Glad you brought it up friend.

  • AC
    March 27, 2009 2:56 p.m.

    I must admit what a pleasure it has been of late to read real comments made by real people. And by those that demonstrate a rather rare quality today, respect shown for others.

    Thank you.

    AC

  • The wise one
    March 27, 2009 6:44 p.m.

    Has anyone actually seen a sample of Sundance's handwriting?

  • Sheri
    March 29, 2009 11:32 a.m.

    To Gaylen Robinson:

    On February 17, you stated:

    "Here's a puzzle for you skeptics and doubters. Fact #1. William Henry Long married Luzernia Allred Morrell. Their first born was a daughter named Viola. Viola grows up and gets married.
    "Viola's first born is Elva. Elva is my mother. She is still alive."

    According to the gravemarker, Luzernia would have been 40 when she married Long. I would assume that Viola was born between 1894 and 1904, because I doubt that she bore children after she turned 50. So, Sundance left not only his wife and her children, but also his own children when he took off with Etta place to South America. I'm I correct in that?

  • Daniel Buck
    March 29, 2009 5:12 p.m.

    Jerry,

    In reference to three of your posts:

    (1) 12:48 p.m. Feb. 27, 2009, re p. 37, Meadows (1994), that SK&EP were in Buffalo in February 1901: we relied on two Pinkerton memos. A July 29, 1902, New York memo discussing their activities in February 1901, says that they were treated for medical reasons in Buffalo and New York. Second, an April 3, 1902, Philadelphia memo says that "It is believed that [Sundance] was in hospital last summer 1901 in Buffalo, New York." The Pinkerton writer, qualifying his statement with "It is believed," was off in his surmise about when in 1901 the visit happened. Yet another note, undated, indicates that SK was also treated in Buffalo in May 1902. A reasonable conclusion: SK was treated in Buffalo twice, February 1901 and May 1902.

    (2) 1:06 p.m. Feb. 27, 2009, re the Buenos Aires Standard story: The clipping was discovered by Mike Bell, not me. Bell has published two articles about it in the WOLA Journal (vol. IV, no. 4, Summer 1995, and vol. IX, no. 1, Spring 2000).

    CONTINUED......

  • Daniel Buck
    March 29, 2009 5:13 p.m.


    (3) 10:38 a.m. March 1, 2009, re the watch purchase: In 1992, Tiffany & Co. informed me that their records indicate that on February 4, 1901, James Ryan, living at 234 East 12th Street, bought a watch, serial number 68210/1685, for $40.10. Also, Tiffany informed a colleague that on June 25, 1902, H.A. Place, no address given, bought a watch, serial number 2590-1128643, for $15.35.

    The dates of those purchases, by the way, coincide with what we know from other sources, e.g., Pinkerton and Argentine archives, about BC and SK's movements. Context is everything.

    Dan

  • Gaylen Robison
    March 29, 2009 6:11 p.m.

    Sheri. Viola was born June 1895. Her Sister within a couple of years later. You have summed it up real close. He was gone for about a decade. In the mean time he provided for his Utah family. They were not abandoned. When he did come back he was a very kind father and husband and later a very kind uncle and grandfather. I will repeat what I have said before: My Mother who is still alive remembers him as "the kindest man I have ever known".
    Thank you kindly Sheri.

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 29, 2009 7:01 p.m.


    The July 29, 1902 Pinkerton memo you refer does not cover the period before Feb 20, 1901. It does not say they were in New York City before that date. You and all the other writers to date have assumed it included the period before Feb 20, 1901, but it does not. It does not say Butch was in New York City at all in 1901. The memo says BS&E stayed at Mrs Taylors boarding house but that would have been the first part of 1902. The April 3. 1902 memo states it is believed they visited the Buffalo hospital in the summer of 1901 not Jan or Feb of 1901.

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 29, 2009 7:03 p.m.

    After the Aug 29, 1900 Tipton train robbery The Pinkertons detective agency assigned detective Charles Siringo to the case. A few weeks after the robbery he was ordered to go to go to Alma New Mexico where Butch had spent the previous winter believing Butch might have returned there. He got a tip that two of the robbers, Ben Killpatrick and Kid Curry, went through Grand Junction Colorado so he went there and followed their trail. South of Grand Junction Siringo met a rancher who recognized a photograph of Kid Curry. At the Carlisle ranch near Monticelo Utah the ranch manager told Siringo the two outlaws had passed through saying they were going to where the climate fit their cloths.
    The manager said he believed they meant Arizona or New Mexico as the cloths they were wearing were to light for the winter. (Siringo 339-342) This would mean it was not quite winter yet so probably it was November. Following the outlaws trail to Bluff City Utah Siringo lost it in the deep snow near Bluff City. (Siringo 346) This had to have been Nov or Dec 1900.

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 29, 2009 7:04 p.m.

    Siringo then went back north to Hanksville where he received orders to go to Circleville Utah Where Butchs family lived to see what he could discover there. On his way to Circleville he had to take a detour because of snow. Siringo 348. This was probably Dec 1900 or Jan 1901. From Circleville he was ordered to go to Alma New Mexico. In Alma Siringo discovered Butch was not in there so he left Alma and was soon in Frisco New Mexico. In Frisco Siringo discovered Butch and eight other outlaws were then camped forty miles southwest of Frisco where Butch had established a Robbers Roost or rendezvous of outlaws (Siringo 355) Butch was here in Jan and Feb 1901. Not in New York City buying a beautiful gold watch for Etta.
    When Spring arrived Butch was seen in Wilcox Arizona on his way to Globe in May 1901. (Pinkerton criminal history No. 1497).

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 29, 2009 7:05 p.m.


    In a speech before the chiefs of police William Pinkerton said Butch and Sundance were among the robbers of the Wagner Montana train on July 3 1901. This means Butch never went to Argintina at all in 1901. In July 1901 Sundance was in Price and Vernal Utah on his way to Baggs Wyoming. (Pinkerton Memo Mar 1, 1902) This means Sundance returned to the USA after he deposited his Winnemucca loot in the bank in Buenos Aires in March 1901.
    Because the Pinkerton files clearly show Butch and Sundance were in the USA in 1901 I will consider all South American documents showing they were there in 1901 as fake.
    If you can show me differently, by using the Pinkerton Files or primary sources such as Charlie Seringo, I will then take that into consideration.

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 29, 2009 7:10 p.m.

    Dan
    Do you consider Mike Bells Feb 27, 2009 Buenos Aires Standard story credible?

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 29, 2009 7:23 p.m.

    I was invited to speak before the Emery County Historical Society in Castle Dale Utah last Thursday March 26 to tell my story. I really enjoyed speaking before this group and I thank them for inviting me.

  • Daniel Buck
    March 29, 2009 8:26 p.m.

    Jerry,
    Perhaps we are speaking of two different July 29, 1902, Pinkerton memos. The one I'm looking at says that Harry Place was in New York in February 1901, with a woman said to be his wife, at a boarding house at 234 E. 12th Street. He was treated in Buffalo and New York for an undisclosed ailment. With Place at the boarding house was George Parker, known as Ryan.

    Place and his wife sailed for Argentina February 20, 1901, and returned April 3, 1902, but the Pinkertons sat they have no record of Parker/Ryan returning. A fair reading of that section is that Parker/Ryan was with them on the outgoing voyage -- the Pinkerton clerk just forgot to mention his name -- because is specifically mentioned as not returning in 1902.

    Finally, the Tiffany & Co. records have Ryan, residing at 234 E. 12th St., buying a watch on February 4, 1901.

    In terms of 100 year-old records from different archives collaborating each other, this is about as good as it gets.

    Dan

  • TM
    March 30, 2009 12:11 p.m.

    Having an accurate time line has to be established. Has there been word from the Lab as to when the DNA results will be released? A few days...A week or more..next month????

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 30, 2009 3:03 p.m.

    TM: I agree with you, having an accurate timeline is essential for Jerry, that is why the above discussion is important, because, as it stands right now, using only Pinkerton files will result in confusion. Like so many police investigations every tip was recorded, accurate or not, so the files become inundated with a hodgepodge of conflicting information. A careful analysis has to be made to distinguish fact from rumor, and outside sources have to be considered, such as the gold watch, or Charlie Siringo's memories.

  • Anonymous
    March 30, 2009 4:11 p.m.

    Has anybody else ever seen the receipt for the gold watch besides Dan Buck?

  • Anonymous
    March 30, 2009 8:23 p.m.

    Is it possible, it was only "reportedly" seen? We refer, of course, to the receipt for the gold watch.

  • some guy
    March 31, 2009 12:45 a.m.

    I have been an interested observer on the butch/sundance topic for some time now and although I am far from an expert I have put a considerable amount of time into reading up on Butch and Sundance. Saying this I am still unsure about the circumstances of the final shootout in Bolivia.

    Were Butch and Sundance absolutely with no doubt whatsoever working the mines in San Vincente at the time of the shootout AND if so was the residence the two bandits were tracked back to known to be the same that BC/SD were also lodging?
    It didn't seem very difficult for Americans with a little cash to travel back and forth to and from the US and SA at that time so is there atleast a remote possibility that another duo of "gringos" took to the task of the robbery and were somehow made to be the famous outlaw duo by means of the American media?
    Thx to anyone who attempts to answer these inquiries;as I have said I am no expert, just some guy trying to form an opinion to a question that may never be answered.

  • Daniel Buck
    March 31, 2009 5:21 a.m.

    Re the watch. The source for the February 4, 1901, purchase of a $40.10 watch by James Ryan is a March 12, 1992, letter from Tiffany & Co. to me.

    In today's currency, by the way, $40.10 works out to roughly $1,000.00.

    The source for the idea that Cassidy gave Sundance the watch is a January 11, 1963, letter from Roy Letson to Charles Kelly, reproduced in Ernst (2009), pp. 186-88.

    Kelly (1996 ed.), p. 288,. says that in 1901 Sundance bought "a fine watch for himself and a beautiful lapel watch for Etta" at Tiffany, but does not say where that information came from. He may have telescoped several stories, or garbled what Letson had told him, Tiffany's informed a researcher in the early 1990s that it has a record of H.A. Place buying a $15.35 watch on June 25, 1902.

    What does the watch business has to do with William Henry Long anyway? Is the watch a dagger through the heart of the Long = Sundance fable? A Tiffany dagger.

    CONTINUED . . . .

  • Sheri
    March 31, 2009 6:06 a.m.

    Gaylen:

    I know a couple of people from old rural Utah families that have stories of their dads being introduced to Butch after he came back from South America. So, I'm open to the idea that Sundance did also.

    If Butch was 27 when he married the 40-year-old Luzernia, it's easy to believe it was a marriage of convenience rather than love. And that he would be inclined to run off with the extraordinarily attractive Etta Place. Maybe after a decade in South America, during which time something happened to Etta, he was ready to come home and settle down with the mother of his children.

    I dunno. Just trying to figure out that whole relationship.

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 31, 2009 8:21 a.m.

    There is a Pinkerton Memo dated June 8, 1909 that states Butch was in Evanston Wyoming June 26 and 31 1908. The San Vicente shootout happened Nov 6, 1908.
    There is another Pinkerton memo dated March 22, 1909 which states Butch was in Price and Sisco Utah the last part of Feb 1909. This Memo also says Butch was in Woodside Utah March 1, 1909.
    As far as I know these memos have never been included as an appendix in any book. I am going to include them along 35 others in my book.

  • Anonymous
    March 31, 2009 8:23 a.m.

    Do the Tiffany & Co own a copy machine?

  • Anonymous
    March 31, 2009 8:46 a.m.

    "Is the watch a dagger through the heart of the Long = Sundance fable? A Tiffany dagger." Buck asks.

    Should his question more accurately be----is this a dagger thru the heart of the Zimmer=Butch fable? A Tiffant shovel?

    If Buck would wait and speak only when "He" has facts to share, there would be a lot less noise.

  • Daniel Buck
    March 31, 2009 9:15 a.m.

    CONTINUED . . . .

    In ref to the comment about BC&SK in Bolivia, Patterson (1998), Meadows (2003 ed.), Ernst (2009), are worth reading just to get a general handle on the story. BC&SK did not work in the San Vicente mines, they stopped in the village to spend the night, a long night it turned out to be. I don't understand the question about "the residence the two bandits were tracked back to." Cucho? Tomahuiaco? Verdugo? Tupiza?

    CONTINUED . . . .

  • Daniel Buck
    March 31, 2009 9:17 a.m.

    CONTINUED . . . .

    The "American media," by the way, did not make the two bandits killed at San Vicente into BC&SK. It was years before the BC&SK connection filtered into the news in any major way, and that was largely because of stories told by American and British mine workers who had known BC&SK and had lived in the region in the early 1900s. But you are correct in that there are lots of remote possibilities, and that the question -- or questions -- may never be answered, certainly to everyones satisfaction. Certainly not mine.

    Finally, Jerry, your comment about Mike Bell's article. I assume you are referring to his Spring 2000 WOLA Journal article. (There is no February 27, 2009, article.) In that article, Bell republished the text of the 1912 Buenos Aires Standard story, and discussed how it might have come to been written and how reliable might it be. All in all, Bell's article is an excellent rumination on an interesting source document.

    Best,

    Dan

  • Anonymous
    March 31, 2009 9:28 a.m.

    How many "continued's" are allowed, before an ISBN number is required?

  • Daniel Buck
    March 31, 2009 9:49 a.m.

    Jerry,

    You should do so. The Cassidy sightings must run in the hundreds. Patterson (1998) devotes two chapters to such stories.

    There are dozens of tales of their deaths on three continents, from 1898 and through the 1970s. We collected about 60 in "Butch and Sundance: Still Dead?" NOLA Quarterly, vol. XXX, no. 2, April-June 2006. A summary can be found on line by Googling the title.

    There are number of reasons for the multiplicity stories. Nature hates a vacuum. When someone disappears, whether he's Butch Cassidy or Jimmy Hoffa, people see him, even if he's dead. Then there are the impersonators, like William T. Phillips, or the pranksters, like Butch's brother Dan, who was said to have joked around that he was Butch.

    Informants pass along rumors. Sifting through 100-year-old raw police files requires care and skepticism. In the wake of the 1997 murder of Italian designer Gianni Versace in Miami, the police released a description of his killer, and received hundreds of reports of his whereabouts, as far north as Montreal. Turns out he was holed up on a houseboat near the crime scene.

    Dan

  • Anonymous
    March 31, 2009 11:15 a.m.

    Come on Jerry, read what the experts have written. If "they" wrote it, you know it has to be real. Save yourself all this grief, just read what Buck says.

    Before you do though, you might want to read some "other" views, as has been previously noted.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 31, 2009 11:28 a.m.

    Cassidy death and sighting stories are a dime a dozen. Look in any newspaper archives and you will find dozens. One of the best I have read recently is the Pool Hall story printed in the Price, Utah "Sun Advocate" recently. "LeRoy!"

    As for possible impersonators or sightings, even while Butch and Sundance were known definitely to be in South America there were sightings in the US. One such was Edward Holton as was reported in the Salt Lake Herald Aug 3, 1904 under the title "BUTCH" CASSIDY HAS A DOUBLE" This guy looked so much like Butch that even the police were fooled for a while. Since this guy was a gambler and card dealer, who roamed around the west and frequented saloons, it is possible that several sightings can be attributed to him.

  • Rookie Writer
    March 31, 2009 11:45 a.m.

    Was wondering what the rates are to advertise and promote your oun agenda. Will I pay the same line rate as Buck does?

    RW

  • Anonymous
    March 31, 2009 11:52 a.m.

    Why don't the expert's mention the story told by the Utah State Trooper? I think his name was Johnson. His family knew the Parker family well. But it does talk of Mr. Cassidy returning to Utah, after he was killed in So. Am. This might cause certain one's to frown on such a story. Ya think?

  • Daniel Buck
    March 31, 2009 12:55 p.m.

    The troopers name was Merrill Johnson, and the incident took place, according to Johnson, on July 17, 1941. Youll find the story in Patterson (1998), pp. 235-37. If the visit is true, Butch Cassidy was alive four years after his sister Lula said he had died.

    I think the Johnson story first appeared Butch Cassidy Lives? Harold Schindler, Salt Lake Tribune, October 10, 1993.

    Another ramble through the Butch resurrection maze is Did Butch Cassidy Return? His Family Cant Decide, Daniel Buck & Anne Meadows, WOLA JOURNAL, vol. VI, no. 3 Spring 1998. You can find the text online with an assist from the baqueanos at Google.

    Cheers,

    Dan

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 31, 2009 1:29 p.m.

    Dan
    Do you actually believe your WOLA articles will be accepted by the public as more credible than the Pinkerton files?

    Around my house my family cannot agree on what to have for dinner. The same is true for Bill Long. It means nothing if the Parker family cannot agree about Butch

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 31, 2009 1:35 p.m.

    Dan: Some of the Morrells, Longs, and Parkers Don't like to be reminded of your article. They prefer to cover up the fact that not everyone in their families believe Butch and Sundance came back. Particularly hard for them is the assertion that Max Parker intimated before he died that Butch never came back from So. American, let alone visited the family.

  • Anonymous
    March 31, 2009 1:50 p.m.

    "The troopers name was Merrill Johnson, and the incident took place, according to Johnson, on July 17, 1941. Youll find the story in Patterson (1998), pp. 235-37. If the visit is true, Butch Cassidy was alive four years after his sister Lula said he had died."------As stated by Buck.

    Now I am confused. You (whether you admit it or not) accused Lula of having a "corroded" (due to age) mind. I also understand you wrote Dora Flack, asking if she thought Lula was a liar.

    Now all of a sudden, to back up your dis-credit of the Johnson story, you want to use someone you don't believe told the truth, Lula Parker Betenson. Which way do you want it Daniel? Apparently, "shall we say"--Both!

    I think I read somewhere that Lula also said, her brother Butch, was really Zimmer. But who would believe Mrs. Betenson!

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 31, 2009 1:52 p.m.

    Dan
    You say Mike Bells Buenos Aires discovery is excellent. You making that statement takes my breath away. Lets start with the first page.

    The article was supposed to have been published April 17, 1912. This is four years after you say B&S were killed. Why did it take four years after their deaths before this article was published?

    Where is Powder Springs Nevada?

    The Winnemucca bank robbery happened in Sept 1900 not 1902 as the article states.

    Who is this leader the Napoleon Flat Nose George Carver the Colonel who had a military appearance?

    After we cover this lets go to the second page.

  • Daniel Buck
    March 31, 2009 2:17 p.m.

    Jerry,

    You didn't read my post, and you certainly have not read Mike Bell's essay.

    All of the issues you raise in your 1:52 p.m. March 31, 2009, post are discussed in Bell's essay. That's the entire point of his essay; it's a rumination on the Buenos Aires Standard article.

    Bell goes into who might have written the article, how it got published in 1912, the errors contained in it, etc.

    Best,

    Dan

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 31, 2009 2:20 p.m.

    Jerry: I don't think that Dan has commented on the veracity or accuracy of that article. He has left that to Mike Bell. I am sure you have read Donna's transcription, there are many inaccuracies and exaggerations, there are also many things that can be collaborated. I thought it sounded like a souped up version of stuff that James Horan wrote. (style and tone, bot individual stories) Why don't you get Mike's articles as well. He does a pretty good job of noting what is accurate and what is not.

    I'm still trying to get a copy of this for you.

  • Anonymous
    March 31, 2009 2:42 p.m.

    May I be allowed to use "reportedly said" info? I would think so, as Buck does.

    I speak of a fellow I knew, who had a brother that worked with Merrill Johnson for a number of years. He claimed Johnson was one of the most truthful men he ever knew. I believe they were Utah State Police officers, or similiar positions. As I never met the brother or Johnson face to face, this is "reported" infomation.

    Am I the only one to notice how the "foremost authority" will use "any & all" information. (whether it is true, matters not) Only requirement is, it must agree with what he puts out.

    But the first word spoken or written, that does not agree with Buck, oh my, there is no way that can be correct. Family doesn't agree, Zimmer does not agree, all the hearsay that Buck has, does agree (of course there are equal amounts, if not more, that do NOT agree), that you won't hear about.

    Mr Buck, for someone who only proved you can have a hole dug and collect what others say, you sure make a lot of noise.

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 31, 2009 3:07 p.m.

    This is the introduction to Bells discovery as written by Donna Ernsts in her book.

    The Standard of Buenos Aires related the story of the Winnemucca (Nevada) bank robbery, as told by the Sundance Kid to an acquaintance in Argentina, three years after the deaths of Sundance and Butch in Bolivia, the unnamed acquaintance wrote the account for this English-language newspaper in Buenos Aires. The article was discovered by British Wild Bunch researcher Michael Bell, who later wrote pieces comparing the many new, finds with the few inaccuracies.

    That statement is breathtaking. She states Sundance is the source for this article. What are the many new finds and what are the few inaccuracies? She does not include Mikes Bells analysis and because of that she left the readers with the impression the article was mostly accurate. I wonder if the University of Okalahoma is happy with her by her doing this? Where can I see Bells analysis?

    Dan
    Please use words this cowboy can understand without using a dictionary.

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 31, 2009 3:32 p.m.


    Because the Parker family and mine do not have complete agreement on Butch or Sundance does not mean much. They cannot all be dismissed as Dan Buck has done. Different people have a different perception or a different reason or motive for their beliefs. I would think the experts would have the ability to understand this, but I guess not.

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 31, 2009 3:56 p.m.

    In 1912 Buenos Aires there were only a few people who ever heard of B&S. Why would a newspaper publish an article that would not sell? Dan Buck, Donna Ernst and Mike Bell say this article was published which I doubt. I would like to see the original 1912 article. Dan please show me where I can see this original article and the receipt for gold watch.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    March 31, 2009 4:08 p.m.

    Jerry, I don't have a problem that different family members have different perceptions or opinions. That is how it should be. What is disconcerting is when it is presented or intimated that the families are presenting a united and unanimous front when in actuality the family is not.

  • A C
    March 31, 2009 4:28 p.m.

    "Then there are the impersonators, like William T. Phillips, or the pranksters, like Butch's brother Dan, who WAS SAID to have joked around that he was Butch." Words of wisdom: dbuck!

    In the last month I have had the pleasure of becoming friends with the above mentioned Dan Parker's grandson. I have not met him (so this may only be reportedly said) but we have spoken on the phone and have exchanged some emails. A quiet, sincere gentleman. I wish I could share with all of you his comments and thoughts on our "in house expert", dbuck. That won't happen here. You can imagine what he had to say.

    Isn't it a real shame, that someone like Mr. Parker, has no desire to become involved, when he would (like many others) be subjected to buck. As we all know, there have been a number of people who could share "real factual" family stories. Buck has denied us this, with his know-all arrogance.

    I am glad my friend, Mr. Parker, will not allow himself to join that group.

    That is quite an accomplishment Mr. Buck. Be proud, it's your only one!

    A C

  • Jerry Nickle
    March 31, 2009 5:02 p.m.

    This may seem unusual to some but I quite enjoy Dan Buck and Ghost Town Bob. They are not going to intimidate or discourage me. I know this subject better than they do and I get pleasure when I trump them.

  • Gaylen Robison
    March 31, 2009 5:52 p.m.

    Hi Sheri. You are very close. Harry Alonzo Longabaugh (AKA William Henry Long) was born Feb. 1867. Luzernia Allred Morrell Long was born April 27, 1857. Ten years difference and she was thirty eight when their first daughter was born. Apparently it was a marriage of convenience. For him, it was the perfect hideout. For her, she was a widow with children and no money. If it wasn't for him the whole family would have starved. The whole time he was gone she had money and purchased property with cash. When he finally came home, he stayed home. If we had all the details now, somebody could write the perfect romance story.

  • Anonymous
    March 31, 2009 9:08 p.m.

    "Dan
    Please use words this cowboy can understand without using a dictionary."

    It has been said, "if you blow enough smoke, it will take some time before anyone discovers--there isn't much fire under the smoke".

  • Sheri
    March 31, 2009 9:38 p.m.

    Gaylen:

    You say "Luzernia Allred Morrell Long was born April 27, 1857". Why does her grave marker say 1854? I can understand Harry/William changing his birth date, but not Luzernia.

  • Gaylen Robison
    April 1, 2009 9:01 a.m.

    Sheri:
    I don't think Luzernia changed her birth date. There are genealogy records of the same person that has different dates. I'm assuming somebody made an error. I really made an error when I didn't ask my grandma more questions about her parents before she died. I never thought it would come to this. I'm glad it did.
    I appreciate the questions.

  • Sheri
    April 1, 2009 11:25 a.m.

    Thanks Gaylen!

    Now one more question to anyone out there that has a constructive answer...I read "Digging up Butch and Sundance" a long time ago, and know that Sundance's brother Harvey was exhumed to get a mtDNA sample to compare to the body exhumed in South America. I'm sure someone has Harvey's mtDNA profile that could be compared to to that of William Long. Why isn't that being made available so that we can put all this to rest one way or another?

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    April 1, 2009 1:04 p.m.

    Snow and ice fog. Out of boredom, looked in again.
    Nothing has changed except for the comments relating to handwriting. Sundance was literate. Had a library card in Pennsylvania, wrote his family from South America. Jerry continues to dismiss any comments contrary to his preconceived conclusion. Dan is a glutton for punishment.

    When the forensic examination was made of Long's skeleton, what was his indicated height? Has anybody bothered to do a computerized overlay of Long and Sundance to triangulate the distance between eyes, nose, ears, mouth, etc., i.e. look at the differences rather than the similarities.

  • Daniel Buck
    April 1, 2009 1:54 p.m.

    Jerry,

    Butch and Sundance were well known in Argentina. In the aftermath of the 1905 Villa Mercedes bank holdup, their names and photographs were emblazoned in the Argentine press.

    Not sure why the 1912 Standard article is stuck in your craw. Its perhaps most useful on the question of who was involved in the Winnemucca bank holdup. Not something thats ever kept me up night.

    Worldcat.com lists about a dozen libraries around the globe that hold Buenos Aires Standard collections. As for James Ryans 1901 watch purchase, youll have to contact Tiffany & Co.

    Dan

    P.S. Ruminate is a word every cowboy should know. Cows are ruminants.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 1, 2009 2:15 p.m.

    HCC: An overlay has been done on a picture of Sundance and William Long, do a search on the KSL website for "Producer Scientist say body unearthed in Duchesne is the Sundance Kid." The video shows the overlay. Be careful though, the picture of William Long has been transposed (reversed) and what is compared is the right side of Sundance with the left side of Long.

  • TM
    April 1, 2009 2:20 p.m.

    And the beat goes on....and the beat goes on. -Sonny

    :-)

  • Jerry Nickle
    April 1, 2009 3:07 p.m.

    "The Standard's issues from 1870 to 1952 can be consulted on microfilm in The British Library, Newspapers Division."

    Looks like I have to go England to see the 1912 issue?

  • Gaylen Robison
    April 1, 2009 3:16 p.m.

    Shari, Thank you!

    G. Grandpa's bones are at this time at a lab undergoing DNA testing. We are all waiting. For even more convincing evidence, you must see the photo overlay transparencies produced by the famous forensic scientist Dr. McCullough that was demonstrated Wednesday, march 25 on Channel 5 News.
    Better yet, the photo's of Harry Longabaugh's sisters. Those pictures are in the book "Sundance my Uncle" by Earnst. One of those same pictures hung on the wall in the Duchesne home of William Henry and Luzernia Long. Every relative I have including my mother, who can remember back that far, were told by their Grandpa (or Uncle) Long that those two women in the picture were his sisters. Dr. McCullough applied the same science on the Sisters pictures. He said: "They are to close". In due course of time this and other irrefutable evidences will be available to the public.
    Thank you very kindly friend.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 1, 2009 3:27 p.m.

    Jerry, I am still on the chase for the article. No luck with Ernst, have yet to hear back from Bell, I tried the inter-library loan route with no luck.

  • wondering
    April 1, 2009 4:27 p.m.

    Mr. Buck further educates us with the following: "P.S. Ruminate is a word every cowboy should know. Cows are ruminants."

    Cows are in this rather exclusive club, because they chew their cud, which of course is food they have already swallowed. Right, Mr Buck?

    Do we get a diploma after Buck's class is over?

    I kind of believe, anyone who tunes in for the Buck hour, is almost like the cow. We get to chew the same stuff over and over.

    But that is what us cowboys do.

    W

  • TM
    April 2, 2009 1:12 p.m.

    Ghostown Bob, I have tried to research successful bank and or train robberies in the Southwest and West Coast after 1909 that might match the MO of BC and SK and have had little success from a premliminary search on the internet. You appear very knowledgable of the events of this era. Just wondering if you have heard or read and accounts of robberies after the reported deaths of BC and SK that you thought look liked their past work? I would think Pinkerton Agency would have these kinds of records...Which leads me to ask if Pinkerton ever suspected BC and or SK in any robberies in the US after 1909?

  • TM
    April 2, 2009 1:15 p.m.

    To Jerry and or Buck: Who would I contact to review Pinkerton Files that covered the 1909 through say 1925 era?

  • Jerry Nickle
    April 2, 2009 2:02 p.m.

    Ghost Town Bob sent me the April 17, 1912 Standard article and I thank him.
    I would very much like to read Michael Bells analysis of this article. Maybe Ghost Town Bob, Dan Buck or Michael Bell will send me the analysis.

  • Daniel Buck
    April 2, 2009 2:10 p.m.

    TM,

    The Pinkerton archives are at the Library of Congress. They are raw information files, pertaining to whatever came to the Pinkertons' attention. That is, to be read with care.

    Another option is two books by Richard Patterson, THE TRAIN ROBBERY ERA: AN ENCYCLOPEDIC HISTORY (1991) and HISTORICAL ATLAS OF THE OUTLAW WEST (1985).

    Two things to consider. First, the authorities sometimes attribute unsolved crimes to famous outlaws. (Jesse James used to complain about it.) Second, the basic operational aspects of bank and train robberies are pretty much the same, no matter who is the bandit -- horses, guns, element of surprise, getaway plan, etc.

    Dan

  • Daniel Buck
    April 2, 2009 2:13 p.m.

    Horse Creek Cowboy,

    You zeroed in on the essence of doing facial comparisons, look for differences, not similarities.

    One difficulty here is that the photo that Jerry has posted on his website of Long has been flopped and retouched to make it look more like the photo of SK in the Fort Worth Five portrait.

    Even so, the differences leap out. Long's ear has a different contour, and it's lower on his head than SK's. SK is beetle-browed; WHL is not. WHL's eyebrows are slender and arcing, almost feminine. SK's are not. WHL is doe-eyed; SK is not. The jaw lines of the two men are different. WHL has a longer nose that slightly hooks down; SK's nose does not. SK has a thick moustache; WHL does not. The build of the two men is different. And so on.

    Dan









  • Anonymous
    April 2, 2009 2:46 p.m.

    Jerry:

    It seems odd that Mr. Buck does not want to share (prove) his information about Etta's watch. If he (actually?) has written information from, was it Tiffany's, what in the world is the reason for not showing it. Does it contain military secrets, or information only Mr. Buck can understand, or is it a tale he made up to support something he wrote?

    Or was the whole tale just "reportedly" said?

    Why not ask him?

  • Anonymous
    April 2, 2009 3:12 p.m.

    "One difficulty here is that the photo that Jerry has posted on his website of Long has been flopped and retouched to make it look more like the photo of SK in the Fort Worth Five portrait."

    And I thought that was only done to the photo of poor Mr. Zimmer. Shows how an old cowboy can be wrong.

    Have the cows come home yet?

  • Anonymous
    April 2, 2009 3:38 p.m.

    Hey Big D, if you think Jerry is (shall we say) cheating, why not write his wife, or (co-author?), and ask them. It appears you may have done this to Lula's co-author, maybe Jerry has one too. It is worth a shot.

    And for "YOU" to accuse another historian of using false or unverified information! By the way, if this was an operation to make Zimmer look like Butch, you would of course had the same comments? But be careful, this may have only been reportedly done.

  • A C
    April 2, 2009 3:57 p.m.

    "Even so, the differences leap out. Long's ear has a different contour, and it's lower on his head than SK's. SK is beetle-browed; WHL is not. WHL's eyebrows are slender and arcing, almost feminine. SK's are not. WHL is doe-eyed; SK is not. The jaw lines of the two men are different. WHL has a longer nose that slightly hooks down; SK's nose does not. SK has a thick moustache; WHL does not. The build of the two men is different. And so on" From Dbuck, who else!

    Clear something up here please. Is our "expert" who has a record of proven information, second to none, explaing the similarities between Long and Longabaugh or Zimmer and Cassidy?

    I still think Captain Smith (captain of the Titanic) should, like Dbuck does, tell us what he knows about avoiding ice bergs.

    Come on Daniel, give us a break. Give it up. Let Jerry show, one way or another, what he can do. You did.

    AC

  • Zeke
    April 2, 2009 4:33 p.m.

    Anonymous,

    We get it. You don't like Mr. Buck. Enough already. You may have noticed everyone (as far as I can tell) is trying to ignore your comments. You bring nothing to the debate. Please stop.
    I, for one, am enjoying the relatively civil debate here. Again, you bring nothing to it. Others, including critics of Mr. Buck, do.

    I do not agree with Mr. Buck's characterization of the forensic analysis as I know Dr. McCullough personally and know him to be a qualified forensic anthropologist and professor of the subject. If he says the facial structures are very similar, then I believe him as he is the most qualified person I know of to make that assessment.
    Despite that, I think it is highly unlikely that WHL is the SK for the various historical reasons mentioned. It would be a great story if true, and I hope somehow it is, but I really doubt it at this point. I will be quiet now because I have nothing else to add.

  • Anonymous
    April 2, 2009 4:57 p.m.

    Disintrested Observer (AKA D.B) said; Dr. McCullough of the University of Utah. I am sure his credentials are impeccable, and that he is a good scientist.
    Dr. John McCullough, who has long experience as a forensic anthropologist. At a glance, photos of Sundance and Long don't look strikingly alike, but when transparencies are matched up, the images seem to fuse into the face of one very wanted man. "It's a perfect match, almost a perfect match," McCullough said.
    McCullough took it a step further, measuring all their features. He calculated a mathematical match .99. "Which is astounding," he said. "I had never expected to get even that close."

  • New
    April 2, 2009 5:12 p.m.

    Being new to all this, could someone explain what this Dan Buck has done, that gives him the right to be so judgemental agaisnt Jerry Nickle. Especially before Nickle has completed his effort. Doesn't Nickle deserve a fair shake. Seems like Mr. Buck and others know a lot.

  • AC
    April 2, 2009 6:07 p.m.

    Mr. Zeke says: You don't like Mr. Buck.

    I commend you for defending Mr. Buck. Now may I point out a thing or two. I would hate to guess how many different folks use your "anonymous".

    "Liking" Buck? Most have not met him. Have you considered, it is not "him" but what he "does" that is behind all this! If you would read some of the "factual" tactics done by "your" Buck, you might figure that out.

    Are you aware of the Parker family members he has bad-mouthed, chased away by advising them that he knows more about their family,(by reported info) than they do. If he would conduct himself as the professional, he thinks he is, and indicate some respect for the information others have, comments might be different.

    You have every right to defend the individual. But you are wrong and look foolish when you defend his methods. You should realize that being unable to prove his theory, all that is left for someone like him, is to try and make other's look wrong.

    Zeke, please stop defending the behavior of one who has achived nothing. It is Jerry's turn.

    A C

  • Zeke
    April 2, 2009 6:08 p.m.

    ...OK. One more thing since y'all are coming out of the woodwork all of the sudden. The insults have gotten very old. Mr. Buck may have angered some people but he clearly has a great deal of knowledge about the subject and has a place in this debate, whether his theories are right or not. Some people disagree with him and are discussing that in a civil manner. Others, mostly in the anti-Buck camp, are bombarding us with constant insults. We all know Zimmer wasn't BC. Enough already. I don't want to be on a "side" in this thing. This isn't politics or religion--this the history of outlaws. You all need to grow up and grow some thicker skin. I guess people think Mr. Buck insulted them or their great grandma or whatever... get over it and learn to be civil. Maybe you think Mr. Buck isn't... perhaps you can take the high road then.

  • Zeke
    April 2, 2009 6:09 p.m.

    (...)What is the harm in debating the evidence for and against Mr. Nickle's theory while we wait for the DNA to come back? Mr. Buck's responses have sometimes been more harsh than I might hope but the don't approach the barrage of insults I'm complaining about.
    You people take all the fun out of this. Sad.

  • Zeke
    April 2, 2009 6:41 p.m.

    I submitted the previous two before AC's preceding post.
    Everything you say may be true. I wouldn't know. That doesn't mean you can't be civil and stop annoying and chasing away those who don't take your side--I don't want to take a side or defend anyone. But, your behavior--whatever Mr. Buck's out-of-public or in-public behavior may be--is less than adult. This is like talking to a child: "but he hit me first..."
    With regards to the possible multiple "anonymous" folks. They bring whatever misinterpretation they get on themselves by not using a recognizable pseudonym.
    I'm not trying to defend Mr. Buck, I'm trying to defend civil discourse (especially because this is a subject of no serious importance--though one we all enjoy enough to waste our time on a newspaper message board).

  • TM
    April 3, 2009 7:14 a.m.

    Wow...Let me say I do enjoy reading everyone's comments. I also wish to say I can appreciate the comments made by the many people that have invested countless hours of their lives and for some enormous funds to study these interesting historical characters. In a perfect world we would have all the answers. I would like to suggest while we wait on the results of the DNA that we engage in discussing a "what if" senerio. I suppose I am in the camp that wants to believe they did escape Bolivia. That then leads me to ask where they may have gone and how they were successful in not beind captured. Could it be as simple as the HWL story? Can one simply go cold turkey from one career choice and assume another? I can certainly understand the upside to a making such a choice if it meant evading a hanging or a extended jail sentence! How do characters like these simply disappear into History? The Fort Worth Wanted poster seemed to be the poster of that decade..So I have to believe the ...continued

  • Zeke
    April 3, 2009 8:25 a.m.

    I want to clarify that when I said this was a matter of "no serious importance," I meant that the fate of the human race doesn't rest on answers to these questions. I realize people have a lot of time and money invested in this which is important to them and that learning about one's family is certainly important to family members... I meant no serious importance for the rest of us.
    I am also grateful for the opertunity to read the posts from Jerry Nickle, Gaylen Robison, Dan Buck, and Ghosttown Bob who have all shared valuable information and theories with us.
    I am wishing Mr. Nickle the best and hoping he's correct even though I'm a skeptic.

  • another anon
    April 3, 2009 9:00 a.m.

    Zeke | 6:41 p.m. April 2, 2009
    "I submitted the previous two before AC's preceding post.
    Everything you say may be true. I wouldn't know."

    Have you considered that "not knowing", may be your problem? Some feel the comments you don't approve of, is simply someone standing up for what is right, and not wrong.

    Would you have a problem with someone calling your Mother a liar?

    AA

  • Zeke
    April 3, 2009 9:42 a.m.

    "Would you have a problem with someone calling your Mother a liar?"

    Of course I wouldn't appreciate it, but I'd like to think I could deal with it in an adult manner, especially in a public forum.
    I didn't appreciate Mr. Buck demeaning Dr. McCullough's competence as a forensic anthropolgist--he is a personal aquaintance--but I don't respond with a barrage of insults.
    There are ways to disagree and even to address your beef with Mr. Buck in a civil manner.

  • Anonymous
    April 3, 2009 10:54 a.m.

    "Of course I wouldn't appreciate it, but I'd like to think I could deal with it in an adult manner, especially in a public forum". Zeke, I think we have beaten this horse enough. We don't agree. I am always willing to learn from you. Help me here.

    I know a man that when he asked the Buck's a question, ("in a public forum"), where they were speaking, they both denied ever doing, what the question implied. (They had in fact done what was asked and would later admit it)

    What ever happened to, "it is not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game"? Are you old enough to remember that? I believe we would all be better off, if we "played" the game, in a manner that we could be proud of. We still have umpires.

    I have to believe, you do not think that results always justify the means. Is so, then Mr. Madoff is to be admired by all. Although I have not seen where he made a habit out of running down everyone that did not agree with him.

    Good luck to you Zeke.

  • Sheri
    April 3, 2009 11:35 a.m.

    To Dan Buck:

    Have you provided the mtDNA profile from Harvey Longabaugh for comparison to the bones from Duchesne?

  • Sheri
    April 3, 2009 12:26 p.m.

    To "New"

    Daniel Buck and his wife are the ones who exhumed a body in South America, believing it was the Sundance Kid. They ultimately did a mitochondrial (mt)DNA comparison of the bones with Sundance's brother, Harvey Langabaugh, and determined they probably belonged to a man from Europe by name of Zimmer. This was all documented in a PBS Nova episode 15-20 years ago, and documented in a book written by Anne Meadows "Digging up Butch and Sundance"

    The same mtDNA profile from Harvey Longabaugh could be compared to that of the body exhumed in Duschene, and settle this once and for all.

  • Daniel Buck
    April 3, 2009 1:24 p.m.

    colleague added two more anomalies in the WHL and SK photographs. WHLs ear is nearly lobe-less, while SKs lobe is obvious. Also, SK had small, dainty feet. WHL has big feet.

    No need to look at the long list of anomalies cited. Just look at the ears. The bottom of WHLs ear is almost on level with his mouth. SKs is much higher, almost on level with his nose.

    I looked again at the photo overlay part of the KSL-TV segment. The two photos being compared were not clear and sharp, but muzzy and washed out. Worse, WHLs photo had been flopped and retouched. Sorry, this is not a valid comparison.

    Sheri, re the DNA, I understand something was provided, but I wasnt involved at either end. Also, although Anne Meadows and I were consultants to the NOVA documentary, the DNA aspect was done by the teams scientists and their lab. As I recall, they harvested DNA from two Longabaugh descendants and at least one Parker.

    The DNA did not match the complete skeleton we exhumed, who presumably was Gustav Zimmer.

    Dan

  • Daniel Buck
    April 3, 2009 1:33 p.m.

    The methodology of the anonymous: I know a man (the man is anonymous), who asked the Bucks a question (the question is anonymous), and later it (the anonymous thing referred to in the anonymous question by the anonymous man) turned out to be a fact. What is the fact? Its anonymous.

    Dan

  • A comment
    April 3, 2009 1:37 p.m.

    To Mr. Zeke's attention.

    Sir, may I politely say to you, that if Mr. Buck, or anyone else, said things like Buck has to so many, about a member of my family, I very clearly, would deal with him, in a most "adult" manner. He would not have to describe what took place as reported either.

    Thank you.

    AC (a different one)

  • Dan
    April 3, 2009 1:56 p.m.

    I still have the book. Looking through it, this is what happened:

    A geneaologist tracked down a living relative from Sundance's female line, whose mtDNA was compared to those from the bones you exhumed in South America. The two profiles did not match. In order to rule out the possibility that this was not due to an unrecorded adoption in the family, Harvey's bones were exhumed, and a comparison was made. Harvey's mDNA profile matched that of the living relative(who was described as "elderly" at the time, but now is presumably deceased), but not of the bones from South America.

    I'm assuming that the comparisons were of base sequences, which is a very easy procedure with today's technology, provided a suitable sample can extracted from the bones. The book says the geneticist had some difficulty getting a suitable sample from Harvey's bones since he had been embalmed, which I assume is also the case with the body in Duchesne.

  • Sheri
    April 3, 2009 2:16 p.m.

    Ooops, that last comment from "Dan" was from me. I meant to address it to Dan.

  • RC B
    April 3, 2009 2:21 p.m.

    As a distent friend of yours Dan, why cant we all get along. I have enjoyd your work foe a long time, you seem to have a lot of information, I appreceate most of yur efforts. After wathcing this for quite a long time, I do wonder what if. You would spend more of your valuable time in proofing your side of this adventue, than in what appears to be only trying to disproof others. I do not understand what you gane from that. You might have told me that once.

    Rock Springs Bob

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 3, 2009 2:35 p.m.

    About this photo of William Henry Long.
    Jerry, most cabinet photo like these have the name of the studio, either embossed on the front, or on the back of the card stock to which the photo is mounted. If they are not embossed, then they usually have a sticker/stamp with the name of the studio placed on the back. Is their any indication of such with this photo? The name and place of a photographer can be traced.

    Also I notice that there are some places on the either the photo or the card stock where there has been some writing, that is either faded, or has been erased beyond recognition. Do you know what was written on the card, either on the front or the back?

  • Danel Buck
    April 3, 2009 2:39 p.m.

    Lets move on to the lie business. Is the jackalope a lie? How about Paul Bunyan, Santa Claus, and Robin Hood? The return of the bandit, Billy the Kid, Jesse James, Butch Cassidy, the Sundance Kid, they all survived. A lie? No, but folklore, yes.

    Helpful to this endeavor is AMERICAN FOLKLORE: AN ENCYCLOPEDIA (1996), edited by Jan Harold Brunvand.

    Lets move closer to home.

    We Parkers always loved a good story, wrote Lula Parker Betenson, in BUTCH CASSIDY, MY BROTHER (1975), in reference to a tall tale supposedly told by Butch. Elsewhere she refers to Butch as Robin Hood and Santa Claus.

    Another clue, told in TRUE WEST, August 1997, by another Parker descendant, Bill Betenson: Butchs brother Dan, like others in his family, enjoyed a good practical joke. Among his pranks, a string of aliases he used, including Billy the Kid and Kid Parker.

    Dan

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 3, 2009 2:42 p.m.

    Jerry, also concerning the photo. . . any family stories associated with it? I would be interested in hearing them.

  • 1 of the anon's
    April 3, 2009 2:45 p.m.

    Please allow me to aplogize. Among the many bells I hear, one this morning kept ringing. I looked back thru my meager files and found an old blog, that I swear is a copy of this one.

    Mr. Buck feels there is nothing wrong in how he conducts business. There are those that disagree. One side is wrong, the other is right. So I say goodbye, as I don't think (right or wrong) that either one will change. I can't help but notice, one side buys the books, the other side writes. Explain that.

    Best of luck to Mr. Nickle and may you all enjoy the blog days ahead.

    1 OTA

  • Sheri
    April 3, 2009 3:35 p.m.

    People...

    All the pictures can do is provide enough positive evidence to make it worthwhile to exhume the body and conduct the DNA testing. If the comparison had shown anything that would definitively exclude the possibility that William Long was Sundance, then that would probably have been the end of it. That doesn't appear to be the case. The pictures indicate a distinct possibility, now the definitive proof lies in the DNA. There's no sense arguing at this point about whether or not the overlays represent a true similarity, the body's been exhumed and the DNA testing is being done.

    Dan, you seem to be distancing yourself from the previous DNA testing of Sundance's family. You were there when Harvey Longabaugh was exhumed. If it were me, I would know exactly what information had been provided to the lab doing the work on the bones from Duchesne. The fact that you're more interested in making pointless arguments raises some real red flags in my book.

  • Zeke
    April 3, 2009 3:42 p.m.

    Mr. Buck,
    I agree KSL's overlays of SK and WHL were not convincing or scientific. Dr. McCullough's analyses were more rigorous than this and since he's an expert, I trust they were close enough in appearance to warrant the DNA investigation. I feel like it's probably difficult to establish similarities in features like eyebrows and earlobes from these grainy old photos. Despite that, I will be very surprised if the DNA matches. (Pleasantly surprised, though... it would make for a good story). There's just too much historical evidence distinguishing WHL and SK (and I find it pretty hard to believe it was all forged, as some have suggested).

  • A A
    April 3, 2009 3:54 p.m.

    Sheri states: "The fact that you're more interested in making pointless arguments raises some real red flags in my book." (This was directed to Mr. Buck.)

    A well thought out comment Sheri, from what others have said, you are not alone in your evaluation. What say you, Zeke?

    Another anon

  • Dan's #1 anon
    April 3, 2009 4:06 p.m.



    Let's assume Mr. Buck does prove everyone else is not telling the truth, does that then make all his claims correct? That doesn't seem to make any sense. Doea a lady gain beauty by saying another is ugly?

  • Daniel Buck
    April 3, 2009 4:07 p.m.

    Sheri, I'm not distancing myself from the previous testing. I didn't mean the impression. The NOVA scientific team extracted samples from a distant Longabaugh descendant and, in order to double-check, from Sundances brother Harvey, and they matched. That's about as good as it gets. They checked that DNA against the remains that we learned later were those of Zimmer. No match.

    Some think, by the way, that if the result is no match, the exercise is a failure. Positive or negative, you learn something. We learned that Froilan Risso's story was, shall we say, folkloric.

    Zeke, I think we are on much the same wave-length, though I happen, through bumpy experience, to be skeptical of the use of photo overlays with historic photos. A have a file full of such "matches."

    Best, Dan

  • Zeke
    April 3, 2009 4:19 p.m.

    A A etc.,
    I have no problem with that. She's discussing things with Mr Buck and she disagrees with him about the pertinence of his complaints about the facial analyses (as do I, if you've been paying attention). You (plural apparently) are just insulting him and that's what I take issue with. You don't seem to grasp the concept that there is a difference between having a discussion, even a heated discussion, and just hurling random insults at people because "they deserve it 'cause they insulted my mom in the past" (my paraphrase). That's solved with a fight by the flag pole, not by anonymous newspaper comment board comments.
    And no, bringing up Zimmer in every post isn't discussing.

  • Daniel Buck
    April 3, 2009 4:23 p.m.

    Zeke, my last message got mashed up. Again:

    Zeke, I think we are on much the same wave-length, though I happen, through bumpy experience, to be skeptical of the use of photo overlays with historic photos. I have a file full of such "matches."

    Best, Dan

  • Zeke
    April 3, 2009 4:40 p.m.

    Dan,
    Healthy skepticism is always a must. I don't want to speak for Dr. McCullough but I know him to be a good scientist and I'm sure he sees the facial analysis to be merely a first step. DNA analysis is the important thing. After all, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, as I was taught.

  • Anonymous
    April 3, 2009 4:43 p.m.

    So, was it Clyde Snow that narrated the Nova episode? One of the things I remember most about it was when the DNA comparisons were made, and the narrator said a word (similar to Shiite) that I had never heard on TV before. I was watching KUED, the University of Utah PBS station. I watched the episode a few weeks later, on the BYU PBS station, and it had been edited out! Funny.

    Anyway, if you Wiki Clyde Snow, it does mention the exhumation of Gustav Zimmer.

  • Observer
    April 3, 2009 4:45 p.m.

    "And no, bringing up Zimmer in every post isn't discussing." "Every" Not sure as to the accuracy of that.

    Zeke is correct here. Whenever Mr Zimmer is brought up, it is not "discussing". It is pointing out a result.

    O

  • Sheri
    April 3, 2009 4:55 p.m.

    Awww...I did it again. I was the "anonymous" asking about Clyde Snow.

  • Anonymous
    April 3, 2009 5:00 p.m.

    Dan Buck and Donna Ernst own the Longabaugh DNA, and, according to sources, they refused to surrender it, for a DNA comparison.

  • Anonymous
    April 3, 2009 5:29 p.m.

    "Dan Buck and Donna Ernst own the Longabaugh DNA, and, according to sources, they refused to surrender it, for a DNA comparison."

    Oh Mr. Buck, is this a true statement? (I can't believe any historian would block another's attempt at learning a fact) Or is it something that was just "reportedly" said?

    Jusr a noun

  • Daniel Buck
    April 3, 2009 5:59 p.m.

    Sheri,
    Not a problem. I don't recall who narrated the documentary; haven't looked at it in years, but the legend is that the first utterance by Snow on PBS of a certain word, Anglo Saxon in origen, rhyming with mitt, was near the end of that documentary.

    Samuel Johnson excluded the word in his dictionary, but Jonathan Swift worked it in on more than one occasion.

    By the by, the NOVA documentary was designed to show how a forensic anthropologist operates. Butch and Sundance were nothing more than the MacGuffin.

    Cheers,
    Dan

    Dan

  • gordon
    April 3, 2009 6:04 p.m.

    I AM RELATED TO SUNDANCE---HIS GREAT GRANDFATHER CONRAD IS MY GREAT GREAT GREAT GRANDFATHER----I DONATED MY DNA TO SHOW THAT BILL LONG WAS NOT SUNDANCE----BILL LONG WAS PROBABLY SOME OTHER OUTLAW

  • Sheri
    April 4, 2009 6:50 a.m.

    Dan:

    "I don't recall who narrated the documentary; haven't looked at it in years, but the legend is that the first utterance by Snow on PBS of a certain word, Anglo Saxon in origen, rhyming with mitt, was near the end of that documentary."

    Yes, near the end, when the DNA results showed that the body exhumed was NOT Sundnace. And, if you say it was Clyde Snow that uttered it, then he was also the narrator of the show.

    So, it was PBS that produced the documentary and presumably paid for all the DNA testing. In my knowledge of such matters, they own the test results. I can't imagine PBS or someone like Clyde Snow holding back the results for comparison to another legitimate possibility. On the other hand, I can see them being protective of those results, and unwilling to just hand them over without some measures in place to ensure that they weren't made public knowledge, leading to all kinds of claims of matches by various scam artists. Something to the effect of: "you send us the results of William Long, and we'll tell you if they match."

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 4, 2009 7:21 a.m.

    Gordon, this is good news, now hopefully the testing results can proceed. A couple of questions however. When did you donate your DNA?, just recently or a while back? Was the DNA for Y-Chromosome testing? because Mt testing has to go through a female line.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 4, 2009 7:38 a.m.

    I realize that members of the Parker/Betensen families want everyone to think highly of Lula and others in the family that contributed stories of Butch and the Wild Bunch. Experience has shown however that everyone is capable of having a little "fun" with greenhorns or outsiders. Some of you have taken great umbrage at the that Lula or others spreading family lore may have exaggerated etc. a few things. On the other hand, I suspect that any of you would not have a problem passing on the Jackalope story to an unsuspecting Easterner, and would probably laugh around the campfire about how gullible some people were.

    My Grandfather was a very respected and honest man in North Cache Valley. He was honest in all of his dealings and everyone knew it. But he also belonged to what he called a "Liars Club" - a bunch of old guys hat sat around and made up stories, trying to out do each other. When it came to story time we all knew he could tell some whoppers and we always had a good laugh about it.

  • Sheri
    April 4, 2009 9:54 a.m.

    "Gordon, this is good news, now hopefully the testing results can proceed. A couple of questions however. When did you donate your DNA?, just recently or a while back? Was the DNA for Y-Chromosome testing? because Mt testing has to go through a female line."

    Gordon shouted that: "I AM RELATED TO SUNDANCE---HIS GREAT GRANDFATHER CONRAD IS MY GREAT GREAT GREAT GRANDFATHER"

    According to "Digging up Butch and Sundance", mtDNA was taken from O. Frazelle Edwards, who would have been the great-great-great-grandson of Sundance's great-grandfather through his mother's mother. His wife had at least two daughters; Sundance's grandmother and a sister. It was the sister whose descendant was able to provide the sample used to compare to Harvey Longabaugh's.

    I would assume that Gordon is a brother or maternal cousin of Mr. Edwards.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 4, 2009 10:46 a.m.

    Sheri: Thank you for that clarification. It was not clear in Gordon's shout out.

  • Daniel Buck
    April 4, 2009 11:43 a.m.

    Sheri,

    Your observation about tampering with or switching DNA is on point. Theres also the question of mishandling, contamination, or misreading. A whole slew of evidentiary and scientific protocol issues present themselves, especially when somebody thinks that a match will lead to a payoff worth millions.

    Second, your question about who owns the DNA from the 1993 NOVA documentary. It was broadcast in the United States on PBS, but as I understand it financed by other entities. A British production company produced the documentary. Who owns the evidence and other atifacts. Havent a clue. The only thing I own is a VHS copy of the program, which at the moment is lost in a ziggurat of equally dust-covered VHS tapes.

    Cheers,

    Dan

  • Anonymous
    April 4, 2009 1:03 p.m.

    Bingo!!
    Dans preparing to challenge a possible positive DNA result. First Dr. John McCullough. Next Sorenson Genomics.

  • A new anon
    April 4, 2009 4:03 p.m.

    All you negative people need to remember something Dan Buck said. Results have nothing to do with being successful. We need to all give Mr. Nickle his dues.

    ANA

  • Humor
    April 4, 2009 4:15 p.m.

    The only thing I own is a VHS copy of the program, which at the moment is lost in a ziggurat of equally dust-covered VHS tapes.

    Cheers,

    Dan

    For all the cowboys that don't carry a dictionary in their saddlebags: "ZIGGURAT", means "An ancient Assyrian or Babylonian temple tower in the form of a terraced pyramid". Dan, some of us would have been real impressed if you would have just said, pile or stack.

    Laughter.

  • Real Old Timer
    April 4, 2009 4:32 p.m.

    "the moment is lost in a ziggurat"

    That is not all that is lost! I'm sorry. I have two dictionaries, neither one has a ziggurat. What in the world is Buck trying to prove? He apparently has a very big ziggurar or a bigger dictionary. We understand your desire to be looked too, but for crying out loud, get real, cut us dumb people a little slack. My wife is on her way to the bookstore. I told her to not come back unless you find some a book with a ziggurat in it.

    ROT

  • Anonymous
    April 4, 2009 4:39 p.m.

    Cheers,
    Dan

    Dan

    I admit Dan, your ziggurat did give me a cheer. Made me laugh too. Thank you, we all need to laugh once in a while.

  • Anonymous
    April 4, 2009 5:02 p.m.

    Thank you Humor, I was going crazy trying to find "the word". History can have it's high points after all.

  • Real Old Timer
    April 4, 2009 5:39 p.m.

    If we are going to give (as we should) proper credit to our friend, Jerry Nickle, then let us be fair. Credit is also due our other friend, Mr. Buck.

    He may not know where Butch and Sundance are, but he certainly knows where to find fancy words. Right?

    He is: "supercalafragelisticexpialadocious!"

    Three "cheers" for Dan.

    ROT

  • Anonymous
    April 4, 2009 7:39 p.m.

    Since Mr. Buck has chosen to lead us a bit astray, with his (knowledge?) of words, perhaps he would honor us with his understanding of the word-----pompous.

  • gordon
    April 4, 2009 9:56 p.m.

    I did not mean to shout----do not know an Edwards---my great-great grandfather was Samuel---brother to Jonas---my son who has studied genetics said I would be 1/16th to Sundance on DNA----I do not understand all this hassle---why not compare Harveys DNA to Bill Longs DNA since it is all available and get this over with?

  • Sheri
    April 5, 2009 5:57 a.m.

    "why not compare Harveys DNA to Bill Longs DNA since it is all available and get this over with?"

    Well, that's kind've been my question.

    You don't have to do a direct comparison of the DNA...you just have to have the RESULTS of the previous DNA test. I think, anyway. My understanding of how mtDNA is tested is that a specific section of it is "cut" out, then sequenced. The result is a string of the letters "A" "T" "G" and "C". Once you have that, you can easily compare results to any other sample. If all the letters match, it's a positive result. It's just a matter of the parties that have documentation of Harvey's DNA sequence agreeing to compare them to the results of William Long's sample.

    I could be wrong though. Maybe back in the early '90's they did the testing differently than they do now. Maybe they do need a new sample from a known Longabaugh relative. This blog doesn't seem to be the place to get that kind of information. Everyone appears to be speculating and passing on rumors.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    April 5, 2009 4:06 p.m.

    It is still below freezing, probably like the chill felt by Dan when he visits this blog. Tomorrow it is supposed to get up into the forties and will turn the corral into mud similar to that tossed about with so much glee on this site.
    Some comments:
    Family legends when told by our own ancestors are the gospel truth. When told by someone else's ancestors, such as Frank J. Dunleavy' report that Butch and Sundance were killed when Dunleavy was in Bolivia, or the reports from residents of Cholila, they have no credibility at all. In my own family, there is a legend about the origin of my great-grandfather's gold watch and chain. My brother put it in his account of our family history. My mother made me promise not to tell my brother that it was fiction. After my mother's death, my brother revealed he knew it all along. Family legnds make for great reading.
    The idea that Sundance participated in the Wagner robbery probably results from the confusion in newspaper accounts of the arrest in St. Louis in November 1901 of an indiidual at first believed to be Sundance but was Ben Kilpatrick.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    April 5, 2009 5:25 p.m.

    More comments:
    Someone asked about later sightings:
    New York Times, 11-14-01 Harry Longbaugh arrested in St. Louis.
    Salt Lake Herald-Republican, April 19, 1910, Butch robs S.P. Train.
    Salt Lake Herald, June 27, 1905, Butch in Thistle Mountains.
    Salt Lake Herald, August 14, 1907, Eugene Schmitz and Harry Orchard with Butch southeast of Bluff City.
    New York Tribune, July 6, 1902, Butch and Harry Longbaugh rob Rock Island Railraod at Dupont.See also similar account Deseret Evening News, July 7, 1902.
    Eastern Utah Advocate May 30, 1912. Whitney Brothers joining Harvey Logan, Butch Cassidy and Jim McCoud in South America.
    San Francisco Call, Dec. 16, 1901. Man going by name of "Drees" arrested as Longbaugh.
    Ogden Standard, Feb. 21, 1910. Butch, Harry Longbaugh, and Harvey Logan terrorizing Argentina.
    New York Tribune, Butch Harry Longbaugh, Etta Place in Chile. Have been joined by Marvy Logan.
    The most intriguing report, however, is one which suggests that two unidentified "Anglo-Saxon" bandits met with Dr. Hiram Bingham at La Quiaca, Argentina, at 9:00 p.m., November 15, 1908. La Quiaca is on the road from Topiza.
    And the list can go on and on.

  • Daniel Buck
    April 6, 2009 3:58 a.m.

    HCC,

    Indeed. The number of separate stories of their deaths between 1890s and the 1970s on three continents now exceeds 70.

    Consider only the stories of their sightings and deaths posted the past several months on the DesertNews.com and KSL.com comment boards. The storytellers even confuse Butch with Sundance and vice versa. They have them dead in Utah, Nevada, and Washington. Butch is buried in Johnnie, Nevada; no, he's buried in Washington; no, he's buried near Circleville; no, he's buried in Circleville. His sister told me; the family told me; his neighbors told me. They escaped from the shootout in Bolivia; they never went to South America at all.

    Butch died in 1937; no, Butch attended Matt Warner's funeral in 1938 and got a warning ticket in 1941; Sundance died in 1937; no, Sundance died in 1955. All these stories are true, in a manner of speaking, that is, they are believed to be true.

    Dan

  • TM
    April 6, 2009 8:00 a.m.

    Horese Creek Cowboy. Enjoyed your latest posting and I am amazed at the info you provided. I would like to know the sources; the last one is the very interesting. Can you name the source for the visit to Dr. Bingham?

    Mr. Buck my question for you is this. You state that that Santiago Lowe was registered approx. 10 days before their last robbery. By chance did you search for Mr. Lowe after November 6 or 7th staying at any other hotels in the area? This is not a challenge, just asking if you looked for Mr. Lowe after the date you believe they died.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    April 6, 2009 9:07 a.m.

    TM:

    Source for visit to Dr. Bingham:
    Bingham, Hiram: Across South America, Houghton Mifflin Company, Boston and New York, 1911, Chapter VII, pp 81 and 82. Dr. Bingham was rather precise on his date and time.

    In Chapter VIII at pp 91 and 92 he describes the death of two bandits two weeks before his arrival in Tupiza who had robbed a payroll. The description reminds one to some extent of the description in Elks Magazine. The conclusion that one must draw is that Dr. Bingham was either forgetful as to dates or that there were four bandits wandering about the area of Tupiza robbing payrolls.

    The newspaper accounts were taken from the papers themselves.

    I have not listed all of the accounts that I have found as to Ben Kilpatrick in St. Louis. The point is that Ben was positively identified by at least three witnesses as Sundance, two from the train at Wagner and the other the County prosecuting attorney from Sundance. And that constitutes the main problem. People make mistakes on identification. And that was Mr. Pinkerton's problem also, witness the dispute as to the identification of the body at Parachute. Still looking for Harvey.

  • Anonymous
    April 6, 2009 9:09 a.m.

    Discovery News: Archaeorama News: Not exactly Indiana Jones

    Machu Picchu
    Not that it really matters, but there is no evidence that A.R. Berns, the subject of a spate of hyper-ventilating media stores in June last, ever visited Machu Picchu in the 1880s. Dan Buck.

    Dan Buck "quite clearly" heard me say something that I did not say, it is no wonder that he thinks my historical evidence is "ludicrous". Paolo Greer.

    What Greer has "put together" is the notion that when Berns named his company Huacas del Inca he must have meant Machu Picchu, But that is speculation, not evidence. Dan Buck.

    Best Hobby of a Local Politician's Aide:
    Chasing Butch Cassidy, Dan Buck, of Pat Schroeder's office.

  • Anonymous
    April 6, 2009 9:44 a.m.

    Jerry Nickle, and Paolo Greer have a great deal in common, Mr. Daniel Buck.
    Nickle, Sundance and Greer, Hiram Bingham's Machu Picchu.
    Take a peek at the Discovery News: Archaeorama News: Not exactly Indiana Jones blog.

  • TM
    April 6, 2009 9:58 a.m.

    Horse Creek Cowboy. Thank you for the comfirmation. I googled: "Dr. Hiram Bingham, Argentina" and was able to read a great deal of his "Across South America". I did also read Chapter VII and his encounter with two American Highwaymen. From this account dated November 15, 1908. It does come across as a possible conversation with Cassidy in tone and by what he Bingham says he was told in this encounter. Taking this into acount with the later discription of the highwaymen later reported killed..they being part of several American bandits.."a score or more" in the area. That actually to me sounds like a smaller working Wild Bunch led by a planner and lead bandit such as Cassidy. Granted the presence of Sundance is not at all known for sure from either of these reports...unless Sundance was pulling his own jobs and possibly envolved in the shootout that was discribed. Again without clear identifications and variations of the story it is very hard to know the truth. But Bingham's first encounter to me sounds like he could have spoken to Cassidy.

  • TM
    April 6, 2009 10:15 a.m.

    Horse Creek Cowboy, Thank you for the confirmation. After reading your post I googled "Dr. Hiram Bingham. Argentina" and found his "Across South America". I was able to read a great deal and found his Chapter VII encounter with two Americans on Nov. 15, 1908 very interesting. The "tone" and details of their conversation gave me the impression that he indeed was speaking with Cassidy. Your reference to the later story he was told about two bandits killed and the promise to avenge by a "score or more" of other bandits sounds like they may have been part of a smaller Wild Bunch if you will. This to me caused me to wonder if Cassidy was not in charge of a group of bandits hitting various mine payrolls in Bolivia. Since Sundance is not identified..it could be that this smaller wild bunch was like the old and that various groups would take on independent robberies. Until Sundance's bones are found in Bolivia or the US we won't know for sure where he died. But I do like this report as to the possibility that Cassidy was not one of the bandits killed earlier that month.

  • TM
    April 6, 2009 10:24 a.m.

    Mr. Buck, what is your take on this report by Dr. Bingham? Again..not a challenge. I simply would like to know how you interrupted this report by someone that has to be consider a highly reliable source. Did you consider the encounter Dr. Bingham had on November 15th as a possible encounter with Cassidy?
    Your resonse would be appreciated. Thanks. TM

  • Anonymous
    April 6, 2009 1:19 p.m.

    "So even if Berns visited the site in 1887 -- and there's no evidence that he did -- he's at the tail end of a long line that stretches back to the 1500s.

    Dan Buck

    Posted by: Daniel Buck | July 25, 2008 at 07:53 AM"

    For those of you that are interested in the ruins of MACHU PICCHU: we are again blessed by the expert at pointing out the incorrectness of others. Is there no end?

  • Daniel Buck
    April 7, 2009 4:26 a.m.

    HCC & TM,

    Almost 20 years ago, soon after we stumbled upon Hiram Bingham's account, we wrote it up in a several-thousand word article, "The Aramayo Mule," South American Explorer, February 1988, with a follow-up emendation, "Mule Never Know," in the May 1988 issue. The incident is also discussed in Meadows (2003), pp. 130-32.

    In 1988, when our research was still in the early stages -- we had not yet compiled much evidence that Butch and Sundance died in San Vicente -- we speculated that the two men Bingham met might have been any number of people, including Butch or Sundance. Later we concluded that the Butch and Sundance angle was not likely.

    Also, TM, we did search subsequent issues of El Chorolque for any mention of Santiago Lowe's name, without success. See Meadows (2003), p. 364.

    Dan

  • Kid
    April 7, 2009 7:51 a.m.

    May 26, 1908.
    You might be interested in knowing that Butch Cassidys partner, alias Johnson, is back here on Snake River

    Who was alias Johnson?

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    April 7, 2009 8:58 a.m.

    Ghost Town Bob,

    Kindly tell us about the two alleged prior disinterments of poor old Bill Long, the alleged previous DNA tests, and the alleged bullet hole in his skull.

    From Ambrose Bierce's Devil's Dictionary. Ambrose disappeared into Latin America in 1914 and is possibly still alive living with Etta Place in the Sierra Madres:

    HISTORIAN, n.
    A broad-gauge gossip.
    HISTORY, n.
    An account mostly false, of events mostly unimportant, which are brought about by rulers mostly knaves, and soldiers mostly fools.

    Of Roman history, great Niebuhr's shown
    'Tis nine-tenths lying. Faith, I wish 'twere known,
    Ere we accept great Niebuhr as a guide,
    Wherein he blundered and how much he lied.
    Salder Bupp

  • Horse creek cowboy
    April 7, 2009 10:41 a.m.

    Kid,

    Are you thinking of Pat Johnson who killed Willie Stang?

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 7, 2009 11:35 a.m.

    HCC: The alleged disinterments and DNA testing have been pretty well outlined in the two Deseret News Articles and the KSL news article and broadcast of March 24th, along with the hole in the skull. To reiterate, here is a summary:

  • Ghossttown Bob
    April 7, 2009 11:39 a.m.

    From the Deseret News Dec 16, 2008: "Long's skull and a femur were dug up several years ago by another relative, according to family members involved in the most recent exhumation. The individual had a rectangular piece of bone cut from the femur, apparently to conduct DNA tests. The results of those tests are unknown.

    In November 2007, Long's remains including the skull and femur were reburied in the original grave site. The bones were placed in a vault."

    Then again on Dec 14th 2008, Dr. McCullough of the U of U directed a further exhumation. Each time bones were removed for DNA sampling. From the 2007 dig, a Y-Chromosome test was done and found inconclusive (negative). The official family stance was that there was not enough DNA for a proper test (Bambi Nickle Reed). So they have since been trying to track down Harry Longabaugh mother's female relatives for a mitochondrial DNA test. That proved futile, so they dug him up again in December for more Y or Mt-DNA. Now as the article states, they are back to the mitochondrial DNA route.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 7, 2009 1:12 p.m.

    HCC: This leads us back to Sheri's question "why not compare Harveys DNA to Bill Longs DNA since it is all available and get this over with?" If the family is going the Mt route and have Bill Longs Mt it should be simple enough to get the results. They should all be on one the FT-DNA database. Any submission to the FT-DNA database should come back with relatives/matches.

    If they are trying for Y-Chromosome matches and got Y-Chromosome DNA from Bill then there is already a Longabaugh sample in the FT-DNA database and it should match if they are related even if it isn't Harvey's DNA.

    So why the long wait?????

  • Anonymous
    April 9, 2009 8:00 a.m.

    Where did the Dan Buck groupie go?

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    April 10, 2009 8:16 a.m.

    In answer to the question of why the long wait. I hate to be cynical but it would appear that the newspaper articles, tv spots, etc. are a run-up to the release of a book or TV "documentary" in which all will be revealed, similar to the run-up to the release of the movie Hildago and the stories of Frank T. Hopkins, or the run-up to Berns' "alleged" discovery of Machu Picchu. To sum up:
    We have learned:
    It is not necessary to rely on "primary sources." So all these years, I have been wasting my time. One does not need to go to South America to find whether Butch or Sundance were there or whether they made an application for a brand in 1901 or opened an account in the River Platte Bank the same year since those that discovered such items were obvious forgers.
    There is still virulent "anti-Mormonism" in the world. (I am not Mormon)
    Dan has horns, tail, and cloven hooves.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 10, 2009 9:44 a.m.

    HCC: Dan's not a Mormon either, it must be an "anti-non Mormon," us versus them thing.

  • Jerry Nickle
    April 10, 2009 6:34 p.m.

    The best primary source is Charles Siringo. He was there. His memoirs clearly show Butch was in New Mexico in early 1901 not in New York City, as Dan Buck has written on his page 37.
    Why did Buck only mention Siringo once and this one time he misstated what is written. On page 34 Buck states Siringo discovered the Wilcox burnt loot was passed in Colorado, Montana and New Mexico. Siringo never discovered any of the burnt loot was passed in Colorado. Siringo discovered the loot was passed in Utah, Montanna, New Mexico.

  • Jerry Nickle
    April 10, 2009 6:36 p.m.

    Buck also states S&E visited the hospital in Buffalo New York probably Jan or Feb 1901. As his source he uses the Pinkerton memo dated April 3, 1902. This Pinkerton memo does not say they visited the hospital in Jan or Feb 1901. A person would not know that if he depended on Dan Buck. Using all of the sources a person can determine that visit happened in May 1901 as the Pinkerton memo indicates. (Summer 1901). This shows Sundance was not in Argentina when Buck says he was. If Buck is going to use a certain Pinkerton memo as a source he should quote that memo accurately.

  • Jerry Nickle
    April 10, 2009 6:37 p.m.

    Buck does the same thing with the memo that mentions S&E leaving New York City for Buenos Aires on Feb 20, 1901. He states BS&E were in New York City on Feb 1, 1901 where the three of them checked into Mrs. Taylors boarding house. That memo does not say that. Butch could not have been there because he was in New Mexico. The memo says BS&E checked into Mrs. Taylors boarding house but that would have been Feb 1902. Using this memo Buck also says the three of them left New York for Buenos Aires Feb 20, 1901. The memo does not say that either. If Buck is going to quote a certain Pinkerton memo, is it too much to ask he quote it as written?

  • Jerry Nickle
    April 10, 2009 6:46 p.m.

    Are we to take Bucks word that a receipt exists showing Butch purchased a gold watch for Etta in Feb 1901? I will produce the documents I refer to, why cant Buck?

  • Jerry Nickle
    April 11, 2009 1:16 a.m.

    Here is a perfect example of you and Dan Buck do.

    Ghost Town Bob writes:
    It is not necessary to rely on "primary sources." So all these years, I have been wasting my time. One does not need to go to South America to find whether Butch or Sundance were there or whether they made an application for a brand in 1901 or opened an account in the River Platte Bank the same year since those that discovered such items were obvious forgers.

    The primary source for the River Platt Bank account is the Dimio report, which you use to find this information. You just wrote Butch and Sundance opened an account in the River Platt Bank. Read that report again. Butch was not there when Sundance opened the account and you said he was.
    This is what Buck has done with the other reports as well.
    If you or Buck are going to quote the Pinkerton files quote them accurately.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 11, 2009 3:50 p.m.

    Jerry Wrote: "The best primary source is Charles Siringo. He was there. His memoirs clearly show Butch was in New Mexico in early 1901 not in New York City, as Dan Buck has written on his page 37."

    1. The book Digging Up Butch and Sundance was written by Anne Meadows. I don't think Dan Buck has ever said he was a ghost writer for the book.
    2. Siringo's account conflicts with William French's account and memoirs. French never claimed that Jim Lowe (Butch) owned, ran, or bartended a Saloon in Alma. He never mentioned the alleged saloon and near hanging of Murray after the Wilcox robbery. Only that when shown a picture of Cassidy, he identified him, and that Jim Lowe left the area shortly after.
    3. Charles A. Gianni May 1933 True West mag. claims Cassidy never ran a saloon in Alma and uses M. E. Coates, Bob Lewis, and Calrence E. Tipton as sources.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 11, 2009 3:55 p.m.

    Gianni also says of the near hanging of the Pinkerton opperative that Siringo claims Jim Lowe through the goodness of his heart prevented: "It originated in the brain of some one far from the scene where it was supposed to have occurred. This story is laughed at in the Frisco Valley."

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 11, 2009 4:05 p.m.

    No, Siringo cannot be considered a reliable source. Most of what he relates about Alma seems to have come from Blake Graham, whom Siringo claims to have shared a stagecoach with for a time. He heard only rumors (Graham and an old cowboy) that Lowe was still around the area in 1901, but he then did not follow up on them and confirm whether they were true or not. He then blamed Murray for sending him north rather than staying around Alma longer.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    April 11, 2009 9:09 p.m.

    Jerry does not seem to get my sarcasm. Ghosttown Bob's comments about Charlie Siringo are appropriate. Much of what Siringo wrote was, indeed, merely a regurgitation of what others stated. Names, dates, and incidents are patently changed. It would be like using Milt Hinkle as a "primary source." According to Hinkle, Butch and Sundance were alive and well in Argentina in 1909 and 1913 and Harvey Logan died in 1941 in Bahia Blanca. Possible, but then anything is "possible" but not likely.

  • Kid
    April 11, 2009 11:09 p.m.

    Year: 1897 Month: 10-October Day: 30
    Harry Alonzo, who formerly worked for Reader & Co's cattle outfit at Snake river, and who joined the Powder Springs gang of thieves some time last winter, was arrested about a month ago in South Dakota, on the charge of robbing the Belle Fourche bank. Alonzo wrote down to some friends who had previously known him to come up and identify him. J. Galloway and E. Lahey of Baggs, went to Pierre, S. D, but the officers who had charge of Alonzo, refused to allow him to be seen, claiming that he had been identified as one of the bank robbers, and that the reward of $1,800 had been paid for his arrest. As a matter of fact, Alonzo was on Snake river at the date of the bank robbery, working for Reader & Co.

  • SAL
    April 12, 2009 1:35 p.m.

    I am sorta interested in the Sundance Kid. When I was looking for information on my great grandfather on the internet I came across an offical paper from Argentina. My great grandfather Hiram S. Kribs and a partner bought a cattle ranch and lived in Patagonia shortly after the turn of the 20th century. I heard stories that Sundance and Butch had the ranch adjoining them. My grandfather was just a boy and he used to talk about them. My grandfather had an older sister Ella. I think she would have been too young for Sundance. All I know of her husband was his last name was Brown. They lived in a small hamlet in the backwoods of Oregon where men running from the law would come to. All I know of this Brown was he was of ill repute. My folks never talked about him. I'm sort of interested in the DNA results as Sundance sometimes used Brown as an alias.

  • Randall
    April 12, 2009 1:58 p.m.

    Butch...This Is The Longest Wait We Ever Had For Oakley Polar King Fry Sauce.
    Patience Sundance Patience.

  • Jerry Nickle
    April 12, 2009 2:08 p.m.

    Why do you and Buck engage in trying to destroy the credibility of others believing it will strengthen Bucks position? All this does is damage the credibility of you and Buck. Buck has done this for many years, and to many people, thereby ruining his own credibility, especially with those that believe B&S returned. Take the high road and produce the following documents that will strengthen Bucks position.
    #1 The Longabaugh family records that show S&E visited the Longabaugh Family in Pennsylvania in Jan 1901.
    #2 The Tiffany letter showing Butch purchased a gold watch for Etta in Feb 1901.
    #3 The receipt for the purchase of horses by B&S in Argentina in 1901.
    #4 The Tito Juarez document showing B&S were in Argentina July 3, 1901.
    #5 The Cattle brand document showing B&S registered for cattle brands in 1901.
    This 1901 disagreement can be settled with Buck producing these documents

  • TM
    April 13, 2009 7:00 a.m.

    I have read many reports of Longabaugh, Parker and Place leaving NY by shipline to South America in or around 1901 or 1902. Three questions: Did they go to Argentina via Europe? If they did, do we know how long they were in europe and where and for how long? Fiinally, does anyone have a record of the passage ( Ships records, dates )and what names they used while traveling via this ship?

  • Daniel Buck
    April 13, 2009 9:42 a.m.

    SAL,

    Kribs is discussed in BUSCADOS EN LA PATAGONIA, Marcelo Gavirati (2007), and in "New Wild Bunch Documents Surface," Daniel Buck and Anne Meadows, TRUE WEST, August 1997.

    His name appears on some dated and undated land filings in Argentina, one being a 1903 petition regarding a proposed North American colony in Chubut.
    On an undated filing, his signature appears alongside those of several other colonists, including J. P. Ryan (Butch) and H.A. Place (Sundance

    If you want copies, let us know.

    TM, the answer to your question will require a bit of research. More soon.

    Dan

  • Double Eagle
    April 13, 2009 11:28 a.m.

    TM
    As Mr. Buck points out, Butch Cassidy frequently used the alias Ryan in S/A, more than likely, because of his close relationship to John P. Ryan and his knowledge of the Ryan family. John P. Ryans brother, William Ryan, died in 1898. One could reasonably assume that Butch also used William Ryan as an alias. You could therefore reasonaby assume that the Wm. Ryan and Frank Jones listed in the passenger manifest, of the Wordsworth, could be Butch Cassidy and Harry Longabaugh. Although, Wm. Ryan was booked on the Wordsworth, he did not embark. One month later, the same William Ryan sailed on the Hevlious.

    Name: Wm Ryan Arrival Date: 7 Jul 1901 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866 Age: 35 Gender: Male Port of Departure: Rio De Janeiro Ethnicity/Race/Nationality: American Ship Name: Wordsworth

    Name: William Ryan Arrival Date: 2 Aug 1901 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866 Age: 35 Gender: Male Port of Departure: Buenos Aires Ethnicity/Race/Nationality: American Ship Name: Hevelius

  • TM
    April 13, 2009 12:26 p.m.

    Dan and Double Eagle...Thank you both for a quick reply. Still...do we know if either ships (Wordsworth and the Hevlious)went straight to SA or did they go to Europe first? Do we know the date of when both ships departed NY during this period with certainity? Was there a reference to a Mrs. Brown on either ship by chance also?

  • Daniel Buck
    April 13, 2009 2:29 p.m.

    TM,

    Heres a bare-bones itinerary, cobbled together chiefly from Pinkerton reports and newspaper shipping news columns. For example, a Pinkerton report might have sailing departure/arrive dates; from that a ship name can be determined, or a ship name and a general date, from that a specific date cane be determined. No passengers lists have ever been located by modern researchers.

    BC&SK&EP sailed from NY to BsAs on Februry 20 1901, on the Herminius, arriving in BsAs on March 23, 1901.

    Theres no credible information that BC ever came back to the US during his time in Argentina (or later, for that matter).

    SK&EP returned to NY from BsAs March 3, 1902, on the Soldier Prince, arriving in NY April 3, 1902, and departing NY for BsAs again on July 10, 1902, on the Honorius, arriving in BsAs August 9, 1902.

    CONTINUED....

  • Daniel Buck
    April 13, 2009 2:33 p.m.

    SK&EP were said to have visited the St. Louis World Exposition in 1904, but the sailing details are not known. On June 28, 1905, SK wrote a friend in Cholila that he and EP had arrived in Valpariaso, Chile, and intended to leave for San Francisco on June 30, but its not known if they did, and if so, when and on what ship one or both returned to SoAm.

    Sources: Ernst (2009), Patterson (1998), Meadows (2003).

    In Argentina, SK&EP were Harry and Ethel Place, and BC was James P. Ryan. SK&EP might have traveled as Mr. & Mrs. Matthews in 1905 or 1906. Unclear.

    Cant recall if any of the above ships sailed to/from BsAs via Europe. For what its worth, the possibility that BC&SK traveled on the Wordsworth and Hevelius as William Ryan and Frank Jones strikes me as unduly speculative. That said, the extent of our knowledge of the bandits activities in SoAm is limited.

    Dan

  • TM
    April 13, 2009 3:53 p.m.

    Dan, Thanks for sharing the info and what has been uncovered so far.

  • Double Eagle
    April 13, 2009 5:14 p.m.

    TM
    I unfortunately did not consult Ernst, Patterson, or Meadows, before I speculated. Of course, no passengers lists have ever been located by modern researchers. Therefore, its unduly speculative Ghosttown Bob claim Etta, Mrs. E. Place, arrived New York in July of 1905 on the ship Seguranca. TM, before I respond to any of your future posts, Ill clear it with Mr. Buck

  • Anonymous
    April 13, 2009 6:26 p.m.

    HCC & GTB
    Its all rather confusing, youve repeatedly told us the Pinkertons, Newspapers, and Siringo cannot be considered reliable sources, yet, you never question Dan Buck when he sites them as a source.

  • jimlyn
    April 13, 2009 6:27 p.m.

    Interesting that the next entry down from Mrs E.Place on the ship's manifest mentions Valpariaso Chile as their home.

  • Jerry Nickle
    April 13, 2009 6:29 p.m.

    Dan Buck writes:
    "BC&SK&EP sailed from NY to BsAs on Februry 20 1901, on the Herminius, arriving in BsAs on March 23, 1901."

    What is your documentation that BC left New York with SK and EP on Feb 20, 1901?

  • Kid
    April 14, 2009 6:19 a.m.

    THE ANACONDA STANDARD: SUNDAY MORNING, JULY 10, .1910.
    STORY OF A BANK HOLDUP TOLD BY ONE OF THE BAND
    This narrative of the holdup of the "Winnemucca (Nevada) bank was prepared for the Standard by Harry Lonbaugh (Lonbauch he spells It), the notorious outlaw, while in the mountains of Bolivia, South America, where, at latest accounts, he still was pursuing the career of a bandit and political revolutionist. He gave the copy to a friend who, returning to the United States, has transmitted it to the Standard. The Winnemucca bank was held up in 1902. The robbers made off with $16,000 in gold. As will be observed, Lonbaugh writes terse, idiomatic English. He Is very
    sparing in his use of capitals, commas and periods, and some editing; has been necessary, to overcome these deficiencies. But scarcely a word has been changed.Editor of the Standard.

    The Winnemucca Holdup by One of Them."

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 14, 2009 7:40 a.m.

    Kid: Great Find! This seems to be the same article that was re-printed two years later in the Buenos Aires Standard. Someone must have been peddling this story around to different newspapers as early as 1910. Maybe earlier?? This story may yet be found in several other newspapers around the same time.

    I wonder who the "friend" was? Apparently someone Longabaugh knew in SA.

  • Kid
    April 14, 2009 8:56 a.m.

    GTB
    Actually, I found that article over a year ago, while researching Tap Duncan. Didnt know it was the same article as the Buenos Aires article, until a few days ago. Whoever wrote the article, no doubt, had some inside information. Harry Longabaugh certainly did not write the article. For instance, I do believe Longabaugh knew how to spell his name, and the date of the Winnemucca robbery. He would have known Flatnose George Currie was dead, and he would not have needed to pull a gun on Jim Duncan at Three Creeks, to get what he needed etc. He did however, know Carver was involved, something that was not well known in 1910, he just didnt know his name was William Carver. There was enough factual information in this article, that along with several other documents, articles, and confidential information, to convince me, that Cassidy, Lonabaugh and Carver pulled off the Winnemucca job.
    By the way, Tap Duncan is one of the few things that I must admit Daniel Buck got right, the other one, I may never tell.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 14, 2009 9:23 a.m.

    Kid: I still think this is a good piece of sleuthing. This along with your 11:09 p.m. April 11, 2009 post on Harry Alonzo is the type of researching that is needed. I am interested in finding a little more about that entry. Is it a Journal, newspaper, letter? I have seen David Gillespie's letter, but wasn't aware of more confirmation that Longabaugh was not involved in the Belle Fourche robbery.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    April 14, 2009 10:05 a.m.

    To Anon:

    In using Pinkerton files, one must consider the source of the information in the file. If the source is disclosed, one may then determine whether the Pinkerton information is reliable. Meadows in her book traces the sources of the Pinkerton information from Buenos Aires. The point is one may not blanketly accept the Pinkertons as Holy Gospel.

    Similarly, Charlie Siringo's versions have to be independently confirmed. Siringo in A Cowboy Detective indicates that Pinkerton Agent "Rank Curren" was told by "Jim Lowe," the proprietor of the Alma Saloon to get out of town. Lowe had left the area before Siringo hit town. In other words, Siringo had no personal knowledge of "Lowe's" presence in Alma or when. Siringo was told that "Lowe" was Cassidy by "Blake Graham," who was drunk, while the two shared drinks on the Silver City stage. Thus, we do not know from Siringo's account when Lowe left Alma. Incidently, the Pinkertons, according to Siringo, did not believe that Lowe was Cassidy. See Siringo pp 353 et seq.

  • Kid
    April 14, 2009 10:56 a.m.

    GTB
    The Harry Alonzo article appeared in two different newspapers, that Im aware of. What you need to do, is contact The American Heritage Center University of Wyoming and get a copy of Early History Of The Snake River Valley by John F. Gooldy. You have to understand that when Gooldy wrote this, his brother-in-law, Dave Gillespie, was still alive. There were many in the valley who knew Gillespie gave the Pinkertons the Longabaugh photo, he never mentions Gillespie by name, but when you put it altogether, you know who hes talking about. Gooldy confirms what Gillespie says in his letter, plus the photograph and Cassidy and Longabaughs participation in the Winnemucca robbery.

  • Kid
    April 14, 2009 10:57 a.m.

    GTB
    January 15, 1897
    Charley Phllbrlck, Bert Charter and Harry Alonzo passed through Dixon with their horses going to the mouth of Big hole where they will reside during the winter and look after the cattle interests of our stockman, who are taking advantage of the mild winter to run their cattle on the Powder springs desert

    January 28, 1897
    After the Cattle Interests
    Charley Philbrick, Bert Charter and Harry Alonzo passed through Dixon with their horses going to the mouth of Big Hole, where they will reside during the winter and look after the cattle interests of our stockmen, who are taking advantage of the mild winter to run their rattle on the Powder Springs desert. Dixon correspondent of the Rawlins Republican.

  • Kid
    April 14, 2009 11:21 a.m.

    HCC
    Let me ask you this. In sourcing the Pinkerton files, was Marshall Frank Hadsell & Charlie Ayers, considered a good source of information.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 14, 2009 11:55 a.m.

    Kid, Thanks, got the article. I don't know how I missed it since I have the other two. I'll see if the American Heritage Center will send me a copy.

  • Daniel Buck
    April 14, 2009 12:11 p.m.

    Kid,
    Excellent, excellent.

    I passed the A. Standard version on to Mike Bell to see what observations he may have. The 1912 BsAs Standard version, as you may have noticed, is somewhat different. Someone rewrote parts of it.

    Also, the man depicted as "Harry Lonbagh" is Ben Kilpatrick; it's a drawing from the newspaper coverage of Kilpatrick's 1901 arrest in St. Louis. Initially, he was identified as Harry Longbaugh/Longabaugh.

    In some stories, Longabaugh was described as an associate of "Buck Cassidy" -- no relation.
    Dan

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    April 14, 2009 2:54 p.m.

    Kid,

    Sheriff Hadsell had a long and distinquished career as sheriff, legislator, US Marshal, Prison Warden. He participated in an interview with Bob Lee and was a part of the posse after the Tipton Robbery and investigated the Wilcox Robbery. Hadsell's statements as to what Bob Lee told him should be regarded as reliable as to what Lee said. It doesn't mean that Lee was truthful. But the question again must be posed, What did Hadsell actually know as opposed to speculation. As to Ayers, Patterson suggests that Butch actually worked for Ayers but cites to secondary sources. You might re-read Gary Wilson's "Tiger of the Wild Bunch," and
    Patterson at p. 56 et seq. and Kelly's "The Outlaw Trail." Patterson relies extensively on Meadows.

    Your question, however, proves the point, Pinkerton files to a great extent constitute secondary sources. Thus, ultimately, unless we repeat old rumors and speculation we must find original documents. My original point, however, was more about whether I would accept Charlie Siringo as a "primary source." My answer, as obtuse as it was, was NO! He was a secondary source which requires conirmation from other sources.

  • Anonymous
    April 15, 2009 11:28 a.m.

    GTB
    You might find Gooldy here also.

    "The David Gillespie Papers are housed at the Museum of North West Colorado in Craig Colorado and are available are available to the public."

  • Anonymous
    April 16, 2009 11:30 a.m.

    If the Buenos Aires Standard story, is bogus, doesnt that bring into question the accuracy of the other S/A documents?

  • Kid
    April 17, 2009 7:28 a.m.

    In the latter part of May 1908, several men, who had known Butch Cassidy, reported seeing Cassidy in Rawlins. Wm. Daley, vice president of the Rawlins National Bank, spoke to Cassidy on the street, and told Frank A. Hadsell. Judge David H. Craig told Hadsell, that he had been told Butch was in the country. Hadsell speculated that Judge Craig had been told that Cassidy was in town, by John P. Ryan. Frank Hadsell reported the sighting to the Denver office of the Pinkertons.
    At the same time, several men in Baggs reported seeing Harry Longabaugh in Baggs. Charlie Ayres reported Butch Cassidys partner, alias Johnson, (code for Cassidys partner in the Winnemucca bank robbery), had been at the home of Bert Charter, and reported the sighting to the Denver office of the Pinkertons.
    Both sightings reportedly were investigated by local authorities, who concluded that it was Cassidy and Longabaugh.
    Also, Pinkertons Denver Office, June 8, 1908, Jas McPharland, Denver Criminal History #1597

    Whether it can be proven to the satisfaction of everyone, I doubt it.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    April 17, 2009 2:24 p.m.

    As to Sundance and Butch in Rawlins in 08, the sources are, then, what Daly told Hadsell and possibly what Ryan told Craig who in turn told Hadsell, and what an unknown person told Ayres as to Johnson. Not admissible in a court of law (hearsay, double hearsay, and triple hearsay), but bears looking into. "reportedly," Elzy Lay visited Baggs sometime around September of '07 bearing with him the remains of money that he previously stored in a tack room of the Jones Brothers' store in Alma, stealing Jake Hildenbrand's horse. See Tanner, Karen Holliday, "New Mexico Prisoner #1348"

  • Kid
    April 17, 2009 5:17 p.m.

    HCC
    As Im sure you know, Charlie Ayers and Bob Meldrum were Pinkerton operatives.
    Ayers didnt say he was told Longabaugh was in Baggs, he knew Longabaugh was in Baggs. The others just confirmed Longabaugh was in Baggs. The others, who reported Cassidy was in Rawlins, said he came to see his old friend Ryan, who had been seriously hurt.

    HCC, tell Dan, Sharkey was the name of the dog in the photo.

  • Kid
    April 17, 2009 5:18 p.m.

    Newspaper Name: Carbon County Journal City: Rawlins Year: 1908 Month: 02-February Day: 22 Page: 01
    J. P. RYAN HURT.
    Fall of Rock in Coal Mine at Walcott Pins Him Down
    On Wednesday J. P. Ryan of this city meet with a serious accident in his coal mine at Walcott. and it is a miracle that he Was" not killed outright. He had employed some new miners a few days ago, and on Wednesday went to the mine to see how work was progressing. He was in the tunnel watching the progress of the work when without any warning a large piece of rock fell from the roof, striking him on the back of the head and shoulders He attempted to jump out of the way but the rock caught him on the back and hips and pinned him to the ground. The rock so heavy that the miners had to use a pry to release him from his perilous position. "Mr. Ryan was at once brought to Rawlins and is now at his home and is doing as well as possible under the circumstances.

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    April 17, 2009 7:09 p.m.


    Kid, Five years ago, the Star-Tribune reported that Bad Bob's body had been found north of Rawlins. Unfortunately, the skeleton upon measurement was several inches too short. Thus, we have another indivdual we can search for beside Etta, Mrs. Porter, and Ambrose Bierce. That is why I asked for the indicated height of poor old Bill Long. There was not a direct answer to the question as to whether actual measurements were made of Bill (as opposed to comparisom of photos)

    With regards to reports of sightings. The Salt Lake Herald, June 13, 1905, page 6, reported that Butch had visited Cheyenne. That, however, is inconsistent with his being in South America at the time. Incidently, Geoff Dobson on his website reports that George Taplin "Tap" Duncan died in Kingman in 1944 after being struck by a Ford.

    I assume Dan reads this blog since he has often responded to commens by others.

  • Kid
    April 18, 2009 9:06 a.m.

    James P. Duncan, older brother of George Taplin Duncan.
    James P. Duncan, according to his death certificate was born January 17, 1862, in Leon County, Texas. He operated the store in Three Creeks, Idaho. On March 7, 1898 he married Elizabeth "Lizzie" Helsley, in Mountain Home, Idaho. According to the Anaconda article, Cassidy, Longabaugh and Carver stopped at his store for supplies, before the Winnemucca bank robbery.
    James and Lizzie operated the store at Three Creeks until sometime after 1910.
    James Duncan, then becomes a saloon keeper at Jarbidge, Nevada. In 1918, Barry Ketchum Duncan is bartending at his uncles saloon. By 1920, James Duncan is divorced from Lizzie and living in Rogerson, Idaho. James P. Duncan died November 24, 1943, Kingman, Mohave County, Arizona.
    One thing that caught my attention and raised a red flag, other than the date and names in the Anaconda Standard article, was the Three Creeks episode. If anything, Three Creeks was a prearranged supply point on their way to Winnemucca. Cassidy, Carver and Longabaugh knew Jim Duncan through Tap Duncan. Im surprised that someone who wrote an 18 page article on Tap Duncan missed the connection.

  • Anonymous
    April 18, 2009 12:35 p.m.

    "In your book on page 132 you state on Feb 4, 1901 Butch purchased a beautiful gold watch for Etta for $40.10. Your source is an Email from Dan Buck. There is no documentation for this purchase. It never happened. You should not assume all of Dan Bucks information is factual.
    Dan
    If there is documentation for this purchase produce it for pier review."

    Haven't we been here before? If he had such a thing, there is no reason to hide it, is there? Unless, of course, he only "reportedly" has it. Could he have created such a thing to back a theory? Surely not. Where is it then?

  • Daniel Buck
    April 18, 2009 2:21 p.m.

    HCC,

    Reports of the whereabouts of BC&SK are almost too numerous to count; if they were ever written up, all of them, the essay would be novella-length.

    As I've mentioned before there are dozens, perhaps now upwards of 75, different accounts of the death of Butch Cassidy on three continents between 1898 and the 1970s. Sundance, always relegated to second fiddle, only has a couple dozen expiration tales.

    Consider that in the early 1900s there were men who looked like Butch, who pretended to be Butch. There were informants who wanted to report Butch, whether they saw him or not, people who said they knew him, whether they had ever laid eyes on him in their life. There were also Butch Cassidys in the newspapers -- a boxer, a wrestler, and, get this, a race horse.

    Last month, Utah newspapers carried an obit for Bart Anderson, a longtime folklorist, guide, story teller, and prankster in southern Utah. Ranger Bart, as he was known, said Butch was buried in Parowan and Sundance and Ethel resided, skeletal arm in skeletal arm, in a Leeds cemetery.

    Ambrose Bierce, now there's a mystery.

    Dan

  • Kid
    April 18, 2009 3:08 p.m.

    Typo, The Tap Duncan article. Its only 10 pages.

    HCC
    The individual who posted this, has a different definition of Sourcing the Pinkerton files.

    Using his (DB) definition everything in the Pinkerton files is an unconfirmed secondary source. Every Cassidy historian including Buck use these unconfirmed secondary Pinkerton sources as the basis for their Cassidy history. The first is the Diamo report. The second is the April 3, 1902 memo. The third is V111 history memo. There are many others, they do not question, and they are all secondary.
    In Buck's book on page 34 he refers to Siringo as "The Pinkerton's Ace Detective". If Siringo found something that contradicts what Buck has written, Siringo's discovery then requires confirmation from other sources. When Ernst, Paterson and every other modern writer use Buck as a source they state what he tells them as an unquestionable fact,. that does not require any confirmation because it is the finale word.

  • Anonymous
    April 18, 2009 4:33 p.m.

    We seem to have a "dodge em" champion in our midst. Why not answer ALL your questions Mr. Buck? Not just those you can!

  • Daniel Buck
    April 18, 2009 4:58 p.m.

    Kid,

    Whatever your point is, it's buried in a miasma of incomprehensible references. The report that Dimaio wrote is a primary source, not a secondary source. Whether it's accurate or not in all respects is another question. The "V111 history memo"? What??

    In Meadows (2003), she wrote that after an 1889 holdup the "Pinkertons sent ace detective Charles A. Siringo" after the bandits, but he lost their trail. That's a reference to how the agency viewed him; it has nothing to do with whether what he later wrote was accurate or not.

    "New Revelations About Harvey Logan Following the Parachute Train Robbery," WOLA Journal, vol. VI, no. 1, Spring 1997, is about controversy over who died, not Tap Duncan's family. Duncan makes an appearance on the second to the last page of the article.

    Interesting item re Tap Duncan's brother, James. If I had known of it, I would have given it a line in the article, in the section about the interconnections between the Ketchums, Sheffields, Duncans, and Kilpatricks.

    In fact, the article not yet written is the one about all those familial links. Why not take a shot at it yourself?

    Dan

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    April 18, 2009 6:56 p.m.

    The intriguing thing about Tap Duncan is that persons who allegedly knew Duncan positively identified the corpse at Parachute as Tap Duncan. As indicated by Geoff Dobson, Tap lived to 1944 and thus the eyeball witnesses in Parachute were in error. That also indicates the frailties of eyeball witnesses and identifications. Tap, however, was not necessarily as pure as the driven snow (which is still falling in Horse Creek). In 1889, his older brother Dick Duncan slew a family with the proverbial blunt object near Eagle Pass and stole their wagon and household goods. Court records suggest that Tap may have been at least indirectly involved. After appeals to the Texas Court of Appeals and the US Supreme Court, Dick was the star performer at the only legal hanging in Maverick County. Tap was the nephew by marriage of Tom Ketchum. Again, the significance of Tap is the doubt as to Harvey Logan's death raised by the misidentification, something we are still debating as undoubtedly we will be debated as to Sundance one hundred years from now.

  • Kid
    April 19, 2009 3:40 p.m.

    Dan,
    About thirty or more years before you ever heard of Butch Cassidy and Harry Longabaugh, I was listening to men retell their personal experiences and memories of Butch Cassidy, Harry Alonzo, The Wild Bunch, Jack Ryan, Ora Haley, Noah and Albert Reader, Jeff and Mike Dunbar, David Gillespie, Wilcox, Tipton, Winnemucca, etc., etc. I knew Tom Vernon, John Gooldy, David Gillespie, Ed Wren, etc. I knew a man, who not only was there, but participated. When Charles Kelly tried to interview him, he threw him out of the house, told Kelly, Ill never tell you what I know, if you ever come around again, Ill cut your lying tongue out. He once told me never tell a newspaper man or writer what you know, theyll screw it up. Something, Ive tried to remember when dealing with authors of western outlaw history. Fortunately for me, I did not, nor do I intend to write a book. As a descendant of two members of Cassidys outlawry, I have every right to challenge your or any other version of events, when I find evidence contrary to what yourself and others have written, or said.

  • Gaylen Robison
    April 19, 2009 4:37 p.m.

    Kid.
    Would you please tell us what you know about Harry Alonzo Longabaugh? Some of us out here sure would thank you kindly if we knew more.
    Thank you.

  • Daniel Buck
    April 19, 2009 5:31 p.m.

    Kid,

    Challenge away, but don't pass up the opportunity to write up what you know. Share your knowledge, it's part of history.

    Dan

  • A C
    April 19, 2009 6:13 p.m.

    Mr. Kid:

    My hat is off to you. You state what, more than likely, are facts, without running others down. A friend of mine, Mr. Harv Murdock (Grandson of Elza Lay) sounds a lot like you. Doesn't blow a lot of self promoting wind, just says what was.

    Thank you. If you ever (which I don't think you will) write a book, pleasse let me know. I have a couple of so called "Western History" books I would like to trade in. A pleasure reading what you have to say. And I don't seem to hear you blowing your own horn. Don't quit now!

    AC

  • Kid
    April 20, 2009 7:49 a.m.

    Dan,
    My grandmother would rise from her grave and kick my rear end, if I ever wrote a book, Shes probably not very happy with me, as it is. Write a book no way, Im to old for fame and fortune, besides, most of the authors Ive talked to say, theres very little fortune to be made. If the fame includes defending your book for the rest of your life, no thanks. As for the historical aspect, historians will still be trying to sort out fact from fiction two hundred years from now. Its time for me to take a break, and let you people get back to Henry Long, Im plumb tuckered out trying to keep you in line Dan.

  • Kid
    April 20, 2009 7:52 a.m.

    Gaylen Robison
    Let me put it this way, Bert Charter and Harry Alonzo Longabaugh were close friends as early as 1893. Bert worked for Charlie Perkins at Dixon, he may have known Harry as early as the late 1880s. Their friendship. Documented.
    Bert Charters step-father was quartermaster agent at Fort Duchesnse, Utah, 1893 to 1896. Documented.
    Did Harry Alonzo accompany Bert when he visited his mother at Fort Duchesnse? At the very least, Bert knew or met Henry Long at Fort Duchesnse. Probable. Did Harry Alonzo become Henry Long at Fort Duchesnse? I guess the DNA will have to answer that question. No one ever mentioned the name Henry Long in association with Harry Alonzo in any conversation I can recall. Harry Alonzo Longabaugh, (seldom referred to as Longabaugh or the Sundance Kid), was extremely well liked by those who knew him. The old timers, said that after his visit with Bert in 1908, nothing was ever heard of Harry Alonzo again.
    Sorry Gaylen, Thats about all I dare say without getting into the hearsay, double hearsay, and triple hearsay, business.

  • Daniel Buck
    April 20, 2009 9:42 a.m.

    Kid,

    I'm sorry I've tuckered you out. You are right that there's neither fame nor fortune at the end of most literary trails. There's an old joke in writing circles that the only books that sell are those about cats, sex, or Nazis, meaning that a sure-fire best seller would be The Sex Life of a Nazi Cat.

    Nonetheless, you might consider something briefer than a book, for example, an article in the Journal of the Wild West History Association summarizing what you know. Most people, including myself, would read it with interest and appreciation.

    Dan

  • TM
    April 20, 2009 9:43 a.m.

    Kid... For the sake of history... I implore you to please write down what you know in a journal or simply a outline that included what you know to be true followed by stories and then hear say for the sake of future researchers. I don't know who you are or your age...but what you have shared has been very good reading to date. Your information will be appreciated by those seeking historical facts.

  • Curious
    April 21, 2009 8:33 a.m.

    What gives this Dan Buck the credentials to be known as the "Foremost authority" on anything- Who is Dan Buck?
    "Kid " seems to have more going for him than Mr. Buck.

  • Anonymous
    April 21, 2009 8:56 a.m.

    "Kid " seems to have more going for him than Mr. Buck.

    Mr. Curious, are you insulting the Kid, or trying to compliment him? Did you notice the Kid does not rely on reported information, nor does he insult those that may not agree with him. Big improvement.

    Keep up the good work Kid.

    The Kid does seem to lack the ability to direct us to "items" his wife has written. (Different and nice.) One other thought, he isn't afraid to answer "all" questions.

  • Kid
    April 21, 2009 9:11 a.m.

    TM
    Youll be happy to know that I have it all in writing. But its of little use to factual history. I can document names, places, dates, and events through Civil War pension files, legal documents etc. As it has been repeated several times on this blod, the Pinkerton files, newspaper articles and Seringo are unreliable sources. Unfortunately, that puts my story in the hearsay, double hearsay, triple hearsay category. Its a fascinating story, but its just a story.
    However, I can and have revealed bits and pieces of the story, along with research material, that has and will benefit others in their research. I have convinced at least a couple of fellows, that I know at least a little bit about the subject. Although, one fellow still disagrees with me, about Grubbed the Left Ear. Following my grandfathers advice, I have not revealed everything I know, yet.

  • Anonymous
    April 21, 2009 10:10 a.m.

    "Following my grandfathers advice, I have not revealed everything I know, yet."---From the Kid.

    And then there are those that try and "reveal" more than they really know. Almost seems like, if you know what you are talking about, you don't have to retell it over and over. Sooner or later, folks will figure it out for themselves. Right, Mr. Buck?

  • Horse Creek Cowby
    April 21, 2009 10:44 a.m.

    Kid,

    Even hearsay, double hearsay, and triple hearsay is useful in giving leads to follow. That's why I suggested that the leads in Baggs bore following.
    Right now, I am interested in the connection between Tap Duncan and the Kilpatricks and the Sheffields. As I understand it, Tap was married to Ben's niece; Boone was married to Truda Sheffield; and in 1913 Truda's brother Dan killed Felix Kilpatrick. The town of Sheffield, Texas is named after Will Sheffield allegedly Truda's father. Additionally there was a Jim Sheffield and a Gus Sheffield who raised horses. What I am looking for is a connection to Martin Sheffield and to the Perry's and Crocket's from Ozona, Texas. Those connections, if they exist, may explain a missing link involving the so-called "Wild Bunch."

  • Anonymous
    April 21, 2009 10:47 a.m.

    It was meant as a definite compliment to KID- He is very good at saying what he believes and puts it way more plainly than some/most of the others

  • TM
    April 21, 2009 11:24 a.m.

    You guys crack me up! You have to admit this is a great Blog!

  • Kid
    April 25, 2009 8:15 a.m.

    I never could make the Sheffield connection to the Wild Bunch. Bige Duncan and Jim Sheffield were mentioned in one article.

    George Taplin Duncan was married to Ollie Ann Binnion, daughter of Robert G. Binnion and Amanda C. Brown.
    Abijah Elam {A. E. Bige} Duncan, older brother of Tap Duncan, was married to Nancy B. Ketchum, daughter of Green Berry Ketchum and Temperance Katherine Wydick.
    Truda Eugenia Sheffield, daughter of William Franklin Sheffield and Virginia Judson Hopkins, was married to Daniel Boone Kilpatrick, son of George W. Kilpatrick and Mary G. Davis.

  • Kid
    April 25, 2009 9:27 a.m.

    From THE LAST GASP OF THE WILD BUNCH
    Ben Kilpatrick at Baxter's Curve,
    March 13, 1912
    C.F. Eckhardt
    There were others involved and suspicion centered around Ben's brother Felix Kilpatrick and Outlaw Dan Sheffield, brother to Ben's sister in-law (Boone's wife , Truda Sheffield).

    William Frank Sheffield Jr. May 24, 1876, Brown County, Texas, Feb. 18, 1953, Sanderson, Terrell County, Texas.
    Daniel Pinkney Sheffield, Oct. 22, 1877, Brown County,Texas, July 29, 1938, Van Horn, Culberson County, Texas.

    Odessa American, The
    Wednesday, December 10, 1958 Odessa, Texas
    Last Rites Set For Iraan Man
    IRAAN (Staff) Graveside rites for Daniel Boone Kilpatrick, 87, former Iraan constable who died in General Hospital here Tuesday, were to be held at 4 p. m. Wednesday in Iraan Cemetery under direction of Moore Funeral
    Home of McCamey. A resident of Pecos for over 60 years, Kilpatrick had served as a constable at Iraan for many
    years. Survivors include the widow; three sons, Wright Kilpatrick of Barnhart, Buster Kilpatrick of the U. S. Air Force in Turkey and Billy Kilpatrick of Mapleton, Ore.; a sister, Alice Kilpatrick of Christoval; and three grandchildren.

  • Anonymous
    April 27, 2009 10:48 a.m.

    GHOST HI ?
    TEXAS PMAM??

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    April 27, 2009 11:32 a.m.

    Kid,

    Thanks. Will continue to work on Perry connection.

  • Kid
    April 28, 2009 9:30 a.m.

    HCC
    If you find your Perry up on the continental divide, in August 1900, might be the same Perry Im looking for, last seen headed for Colorado with $20 gold pieces. Unknown if Perry, first name or last.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    April 28, 2009 10:07 a.m.

    Jerry: RE: your 2:08 p.m. April 12, 2009 comment about, among other things, the letter from Tiffany & Co. concerning the gold watch, purchased by Parker for Longabaugh and his wife. You have asked Buck to produce the letter. Maybe what you ought to do is your own research. Why don't you check Tiffany's website for the address and number to contact them. They have an archive service that will check their records and confirm the purchase. While your at it, ask for information on the watch that Longabaugh bought on June 25, 1902 too. There are ways to confirm others research, ask Anonymous, I sent her running all over the place looking for stuff.

  • Anonymous
    April 29, 2009 6:45 a.m.

    "You have asked Buck to produce the letter. Maybe what you ought to do is your own research." Mr. GBob suggests the above.

    Sure that might work. But what is the hang-up with Mr. Buck sharing a letter showing proof of a claim he makes? What in the world is the harm in that? Of course, if he doesn't have the document, it might be a little harder to produce. This kind gesture by Mr. Buck, would save Jerry a lot of time, especially, if what he is looking for, doesn't exist. Just a suggestion, like Gbob's.

  • Just Passing Thru
    April 29, 2009 4:57 p.m.

    Perhaps Mr. Buck would prefer showing the letter he "reportedly" wrote to Lula Parker Betenson's co-author, asking if Mrs. Flack thought Mrs. Betenson was telling, shall we say, the truth.

  • Daniel Buck
    April 30, 2009 6:17 a.m.

    Just Passing Through,

    At a 2006 history confab in Rock Springs, WY, Bob Jayne -- who lurks in these latitudes -- announced polemically that he had in his hand a letter I had written to Dora Flack in which I had tried to get her to say Lula Parker Betenson had lied, etc.

    I invited Jayne to read said letter to the audience members so the they could judge for themselves. Jayne refused. He fillibustered, tried to change the subject, sputtered. Fell silent.

    In my letter, I had asked Flack if, as Betenson's co-author, she had an opinion about the controversy among Parker descendants over Butch Cassidy's fate. Flack replied that she didn't doubt Betenson's veracity: "Never would I have attempted the task if I hadn't believed Lulas story."

    I used that quote in our 1998 WOLA Journal article, "Did Butch Cassidy Return? His Family Can't Decide," which you can find online.

    Dan

  • AC
    April 30, 2009 11:30 a.m.

    I invited Jayne to read said letter to the audience members so the they could judge for themselves. Jayne refused. He fillibustered, tried to change the subject, sputtered. Fell silent.

    Not being there, I can relate only what others (reportedly) said occurred. Knowing Mr. Jayne retired some time ago from dealing with this (I'm sure he will be honored at your kind words) I feel the other side needs presented.

    When asked about the letter, you replied, That is what we do. It proved what? Why in the world even write such a thing? Apparently Jayne believed it spoke for itself and saw no need to waste others time by reading such a sad tactic. He fell silent after asking, why you had said the derogatory comment about Lulas mind. Comments you and Mrs. Buck immediately denied. (Later, your mind cleared and you admitted not only saying, but writing those sad, insulting words.) My guess, Jayne did not know how to deal with one, who did not speak the truth.

    Mr. Buck has the right to think what he does is acceptable. Others and I believe otherwise.
    AC

  • Bob Jayne
    April 30, 2009 1:00 p.m.

    Dear Mr. Buck:
    Since you have chosen this method of giving me credit and humbling me with your praise, I will return the favor. First, my thanks to A C. As he mentioned I have tried to stay away from this. If memory serves, I think my last comment was Feb. 27, regarding the new book by Harvey Murdock. (I hope that is correct) And it is an excellent book. (Although I dont think Mr. Murdock buys your story)
    Mr. Buck you seem to think I am the only one who has seen the letter. Yes, when I first met Mrs. Flack, she gave me copies of your letter and her reply. (Ever wonder why?) A Parker family member was also there. Those letters have been seen (and thought very poorly of) by many.
    The truth of what happened in Rock Springs and your tactics are well known, as we both know.
    So, please allow me to stay out of this. One little thing, as a past master at the art, I was surprised at your spelling of filibuster.

    Bob Jayne

  • Daniel Buck
    April 30, 2009 1:50 p.m.

    AC,

    That is the methodology: Do research. Trawl archives. Read historic newspapers. Query people with a knowledge of the subject under inquiry.

    Dora Flack kindly gave me her answers, and I published them in the article. Only an obscurant would object to that.

    Dan

  • AC
    April 30, 2009 2:51 p.m.

    "Dora Flack kindly gave me her answers, and I published them in the article. Only an obscurant would object to that." Mr. Buck says------

    Mr. Buck, you believe what ever you want, even some of what you write. If I am standing in the way of your progress, oh my goodness. By the way did you ever speak to Mrs. Flack face to face, so you could "see" how she felt about your "query"? She is a lady, Mr. Buck, she is also very polite. I am sure you have at least heard of these words? Right?

    Along with your wonderful "words", I presume you are (at least in your mind) moving forward. When you get a moment, it might pay you to check what direction you are actually going. Just a friendly tip.

    All my best to your future success Daniel.

    Art







  • Daniel Buck
    April 30, 2009 4:23 p.m.

    AC,

    Dora Flack and I spoke by telephone, after our exchange of letters. She was quite candid and forthcoming. She told me that in her opinion, the "returned" Butch Cassidy was William T. Phillips. "I honestly believe he died as William Phillips," she told me. She said that although she had "no proof," it was based on everything Lula Parker Betenson had said, and that in her view Betenson did not want the Phillips fact made public.

    As we know, Betenson said Butch died in the same year and in the same part of the country as William T. Phillips, and occasionally used the alias Phillips, but was not William T. Phillips.

    No wonder the controversy persists.

    Dan

  • A Lady
    April 30, 2009 5:06 p.m.

    If I may state my opinion, Mr. Buck, in your book, what you did may be explained as a "query". Sir, in mine, it is nothing more than an insult.

    Mr. Buck, you can attempt to explain (excuse) it with all the eloquence you want. It is still insulting, when you ask an individual, if they feel their co-author is telling the truth. Would you have been more pleased if Mrs. Flack had answered, I only co-author books with those that don't tell the truth.

    If you truly believe such a "query" is appropriate, you are indeed a sad, little man.

    Almost still a Lady

  • Disintrested Observer
    May 1, 2009 7:17 a.m.

    It has been a while since I have been on this board, and it looks again that the subject has turned to it's favorite topic, Dan Buck and his supposed "insult" of Lula Betensen - And everyone else taking offense to it. I still have not seen the exact quote that is so offensive. If Bob Jayne would "produce" the quote like the rest seem to be wanting Buck to do with the Tiffany watch thing, then maybe everyone can see just how insulting it was.

    There seems to be two sides to this. Buck seems to think he made a valid inquiry to Flack about her opinion. Others seem to think that he was insulting Betensen.

    Well, "lets see the goods" so we can decide for ourselves, or is this just about having your feelings hurt and then whining about it???

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 1, 2009 8:58 a.m.

    Concerning the Gold Watch and letter. Dan Buck has provided the following: The date of the letter from Tiffany's, the date of the watch purchase, who purchased it, their address, the serial number of the watch, and the price. What else do you want? short of posting a photocopy of said letter on the board (which can't be done), he has included just about everything in the letter. Even if he were able to post a photocopy of the said letter, someone could say that it had been "photo-shopped."

    To really confirm that the letter is not a "fake" which Jerry has claimed, you need to write Tiffany & Co. and ask. As I mentioned before, they have an archive service which will gladly forward any and all information to you.

    good luck

  • Anonymous
    May 1, 2009 11:23 a.m.

    For being "disintrested" you do seem to have some misguided interest. It might help your presentation if you knew what your were talking about.

    "Dan Buck and his "supposed" insult of Lula Betensen" --- Comes from Buck stating, "Mrs. Betenson's mind had possibly corroded with age." What part of that don't you understand?

    "Buck seems to think he made a valid inquiry to Flack about her opinion. Others seem to think that he was insulting Betensen."

    You again "seem" to miss the point. Insulting Mrs. Betenson has been addressed above. Buck writing Mrs. Flack, asking if she thought Lula was telling the truth, was an insult to Mrs. Flack. (Do you really think Mrs. Flack would be part of an effort that was knowingly not true?) Have you met Mrs. Flack? If you don't understand this, it might be a good idea for you to stay--"disinterested".

  • Daniel Buck
    May 1, 2009 12:56 p.m.

    Anonymous,

    Below is the full quote, from the Q&A in the 2002 True West (online on our website). Memory does fade with age, but if its any comfort to you, I think Lula made up the return story.

    Dan

    ===
    Q: How come Butch's sister Lula Parker Betenson said he came home in 1925 if he didn't?

    A: At the time Lula made her claim, many people believed that Butch had returned, so she may have seen no harm in simply inventing a visit to trump Hollywood and write a book with a better story of how Butch, "the sainted abbot of the world's largest gang of outlaws" (as she once described him), defeated death. A more charitable explanation is that age had corroded her memory -- that is, some relative had visited the family's home in Circleville, and decades later that person became Butch in her mind. (Memories are memories of a memory, as the neuroscientists like to say.) In any case, most of Butch's immediate kin, including his father and other siblings, said he never returned.
    ===

  • Daniel Buck
    May 1, 2009 1:24 p.m.

    Disinterested Observer,

    The quarrel with my 1998 letter to Dora Flack is not with the content, but that I inquired at all. There are those -- obscurants -- who believe that once a question is settled in their mind, further inquiry by others is out-of-bounds, or as they like to put it "insulting."

    My letter to Flack summarized the mystery about whether he had died in South America or returned to the US, and noted while Lula's view was "quite clear," that we had "learned of other opinions from other members of the Parker family expressing doubts about Lula's version." Nothing controversial there. It's true.

    The letter closed, "I wondered if you, as someone who was intimately involved with the writing of the book, had an opinion on the matter."

    Flack replied with a spirited defense of the books veracity. We quoted from her letter in our article. See "Did Butch Cassidy Return? His Family Can't Decide."

    Dan

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 1, 2009 3:08 p.m.

    I'm delighted to find my old pals pounding the snot out of Dan Buck and his Pennsylvania Housewife side-kick, Donna Ernst. Question:
    (1) The headstone for Evinda Ann Long a/k/a Vinda Long Merkley in the Duchesne, Utah, Cemetery gives her birthdate as March 29, 1898. Evinda was Bill and Luzernia Long's second child, and I believe Luzernia's eighth child. Under the rule that the first baby can come any time, but the rest take 9 months, that would mean Bill and Luzernia were doing the horizontal mambo in Fremont, Wayne County, Utah on or about July 29, 1897.
    (2) According to David Gillespie's October 12, 1897 letter to his mother, Harry Longabaugh was in the Baggs/Dixon/Savery/Slater area on June 28, 1897, the date of the Belle Fourche bank robbery, and did not leave the Little Snake area until August 1, 1897. After leaving the Little Snake area he was spotted in Red Lodge, Montana on September 18, 1897 and was arrested 20 miles north of Lavina, Montana, on September 22, 1897. Harry subsequently broke jail on October 31, 1897, at Deadwood, South Dakota.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 1, 2009 3:11 p.m.

    (Continued) If you accept as fact that a mortal person can not be in two places at one time, isn't this dispositive of the issue of whether or not Bill Long is Harry Longabaugh? If not dispositive, would you please tell me why it is not?

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 1, 2009 3:29 p.m.

    Would you please tell me the date when you will publish the results of your DNA test results? Sufficient time has elapsed since the third exhumation/reinternment to have compared the DNA of every resident of Boston. Tempus fugit.

  • Anonymous
    May 1, 2009 6:59 p.m.

    "Below is the full quote, from the Q&A in the 2002 True West (online on our website). Memory does fade with age, but if its any comfort to you, I think Lula made up the return story." Per Buck.

    Are you stating Buck, that you never accused Mrs. Betenson of possible having a corroded mind? Not even in one of your ads. (see above) I recall someone showing awhile back, in one of your many "articles", where you had made this accusation in writing. (is it still there or has it been removed?) Save us all from this, just be man enough to admit what you did and go on. It is simple. Or does the truth catch in your throat? I understand you denied it in Rock Springs and you still won't back up what yos have said. I, like most others, are fed up with this and you.

  • Driftwood
    May 1, 2009 7:07 p.m.

    How about that KSL Blog poll, isnt that amazing? 87% believe Sundance died in Utah, 8% believe he died in Bolivia.

  • Driftwood
    May 1, 2009 7:19 p.m.

    I see DB asks the questions and then answers the question. Would the answer be fact or would it be DB opinion?

  • The informed one
    May 1, 2009 10:43 p.m.

    Not only did Lula believe Butch returned but so did Pinkerton informant F. J. Dodge. (Pinkerton History #3345). Also Pinkerton memo dated Feb 26, 1910 states Butch was seen in 1909 in Wyoming and Utah. And Pinkerton memo dated June 8, 1908 states Butch was in Evanston Wyoming in May 1908. According to DB Butch was in Bolivia in May 1908. Butch cant be in two places at the same time. I will go with the Pinkertons

  • Little DB
    May 2, 2009 8:02 a.m.

    Tempus fugit is a Latin expression meaning "time flees",

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 2, 2009 9:32 a.m.

    Informed One:

    F. J. Dodge was not a Pinkerton Informant. He was a Special Officer for Wells Fargo Express Company. The Dodge document is not to be cited as "Pinkerton History #3445". Chicago Criminal History No. 3445 is the Pinkerton National Detective Agency Cross Index File Number for George Parker, three variations of the Cassidy alias, and the alias Ingerfield. The correct citation for the Dodge Document is:

    Pinkerton Chicago Office Memorandum to James McParland, Esq., March 22, 1909, Chicago Criminal History No. 3445, George Parket et al, Container 89, Folio 7, Pinkerton National Detective Agency Records, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress, Washington D. C.

    The document just cited reports the contents of a letter from Special Officer Dodge writing from Raton, New Mexico, to Principal William A. Pinkerton at the Chicago Office. The date of Dodge's letter was March 6, 1909. The salient points of the letter are:

    (1) Dodge received what he believed to be credible information on February 28, 1909, that "Butch Cassidy" was in Price and Cisco, Utah prior to February 28, 1909, in the company of Gunplay Maxwell and Tom McCarty. McCarty and Maxwell were known to inhabit the Henry Mountains.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 2, 2009 10:09 a.m.

    (Continued)2) Butch was seen in Woodside, Utah, in the company of a man named Hall on March 1, 1909.

    If you follow Mr. Buck's most excellent admonition to read raw reports with a critical eye and a healthy dose of scepticism, you will discover that your F. J. Dodge document is the "smoking gun" that blasted away Mr. Buck's absurd contention that Butch and Sundance died in San Vicente, Bolivia on November 6, 1908. I'm fairly confident that you'll do precisely that, and therefore let me be the first to congratulate you and Kid Nickle as the Dynamic Duo that established Ms Meadows and Mr Buck as the premiere practitioners of Slapstick History and Intellectual Pratfalls.

    Congratulations would be premature if all the arrows in your quiver had blunt tips. A Pinkerton Document that is not corroborated, verified by independent documentation, and placed in context is an arrow with a blunt tip. Therefore sharpen it to the point where it penetrates with the same force as a .44-40. Remember, deliver a double tap to the red zone, then the coup de grace between the eyes.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 2, 2009 10:55 a.m.

    (Continued)In my opinion, the 1-2-3 to dispose of Buck is, in order:

    1) The November 12, 1907 letter from J. P. Maxwell to The Boys at Concordia. The letter is printed on pages 98-99 in DUBAS If I were you I would devote considerable time to Santa Cruz and its geographic location to Rio Paraguay, Concepcion, Caraya Vuelta, Cochabamba, and the description of the land Hutch wanted. Hint, the locations referenced are directly linked to Tex Rickard and George West Musgrave and a very special ranching venture.

    2.)Pinkerton Denver Criminal History No 1597, George Cassidy, Train Robber and Hold-Up, June 8, 1908,Container 89, Folio 7, Pinkerton National Detective Agency Records, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress, Washington, D. C. You already have the document, you just didn't cite it correctly. To turn this document into a lethal shot so you can claim your trophy Buck, conentrate on the Snake River Stock Growers Association meeting at Slater. Hint: George West Musgrave married Jano Magor. Jano Magor's older sister was Maud Lorene Magor who was Bert Charter's wife. At the time of the Ayer and Hadsell reports the Stock Growers met.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 2, 2009 11:21 a.m.

    Right after the Stock Growers met, Charlie Perkins, Bert and Kid Charter's relation by marriage, sold his Snake River ranch. At that time, Bert and Maud moved to Pinedale. Further hint: Kirk Calvert, whose daughter Mary married Elzy Lay, was the last wagon boss for the Ell Seven outfit before they went belly up in 1892. Charley Ayer bought the assets of the Ell Seven, established the Bar Ell Seven, and was the Pinkerton Informant not only of this document but countless others --always to the detriment of Harry Longabaugh. To close out 1908, remember that Jano and George musgrave got hitched on November 2, 1908.

    3.) Your Coup de grace, shot three, is your Dodge document. You can make this lethal by following up on Hall. Hint: Hall is Tom Hall. Tom Hall is the alias of Tom Nichols. Tom Nichols was one of the moving forces behind the Newberry, Crockett, and Jones cattle raising operations in Patagonia as of 1887. Nichols is the cousin (not brother) of William Midvale "Mid" Nichols. Mid Nichols was the money behind the Nichols/Ryan saloon in Baggs. Also follow up on Tom McCarty. McCarty's Pinkerton Cross Index # is 1671.

  • Kid
    May 2, 2009 3:10 p.m.

    Kid Lutefisk
    1895: Kite/Ryan before Nichols/Ryan 1896

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 3, 2009 12:29 p.m.

    Thanks, Kid. You're quite right. Kite/Ryan was the predecessor. Would you happen to know the first or earliest use of the name Home Ranch Saloon to refer to the Nichols/Ryan establishment in Baggs? The front page of the Craig Courier carries ads from 1896 onward. Was Nichols involved in the Home Ranch Saloon in Rawlins with Ryan?

    I appreciate any help. After three meals a day of lutefisk my mind has become more corroded than Mr. Buck believes Mrs. Betenson's became. Unlike Mrs. Betenson, I don't have a defense if Mr. Buck levels a similar charge at me.

    I can't find any evidence that Tom Nichols owned the Mint Saloon in Price, Utah, prior to 1896. Do you know if he did?

    The same Judge McGinnis who locked up Harry Longabaugh in 1887, colluded with Walter Stoll in Cheyenne to quash Tom Nichol's Texas murder warrant in 1890. In 1896 McGinnis moved to Price and opened a law office, and represented Nichols. In 1899 after J. B. Buhr was arrested at Granite Tom Nichols was a character witness --advised by McGinnis. The case was dismissed by Judge McCarty -- Tom McCarty's cousin.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 3, 2009 4:33 p.m.

    Harry Longabaugh was measured as being 5'9" tall at incarceration in 1887 and 5'10" tall in 1902 as recorded on his P.N.D.A., Card Number 1961, Harry Longabaugh, 470R, Container 93, Folio 3, Pinkerton National Detective Agency Records, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress, Washington, D. C.

    According to Page 2, Preliminary Report, Examination of William Long of Duchesne, Utah, November 15, 2007,Bill Long was "approximately" 5' 8" in height at death in 1936. Use of the word "approximately" is troubling in this context. McCullough noted Longs evidentiary spndylolysis of the lumbar vertebra and Longs arthritic development of the lumbar centra but does not tell us if either notation was extant in the height calculation at death. The individual who conducted Longs first exhumation gave the height of the remains at 5'7".

    The Long and the short of the matter is that Bill was far too little to be Harry. Kid Nickle has been hoist on his own petard. I'll leave Little DB the floor so he can clean up after me.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 4, 2009 7:48 a.m.

    In 1937 Florence Viola Long Ehlers, the eldest child of Bill and Luzernia Long wrote a letter to her nephew, Silas Laverle Morrell. In that letter Viola (as she was known) said that Bill claimed "as near as he could remember" that he arrived in Utah at age 21. If Bill was born in 1867, as Kid Nickle claims, then Bill's arrival in Utah would have been in 1888. Harry Longabaugh was either in custody or incarcerated at Sundance, Wyoming, from June, 1887 (the date of his second capture by Deputy Sheriff Eph K. Davis and Stock Detective William D. "Billy" Smith) until his pardon by Governor Thomas Moonlight on February 4, 1889. After a stage trip to Deadwood immediately after being pardoned, Longabaugh returned to Wyoming. On or about May 17, 1889 Longabaugh was in a dugout on Oil Creek, 35 miles north of Sundance when Sheriff E. B. Armstrong and Deputy Sheriff James Swisher shot and killed Buck Hanby in Longabaugh's presence. Whether "as near as he could remember" means 1887, 1888, or 1889, Harry and Bill must be two different people because a mortal person can not be in two places at once.

  • Disintrested Observer
    May 4, 2009 7:49 a.m.

    AC, Jayne, Lady, Anonymous: Just what was so offensive about asking: "I wondered if you, as someone who was intimately involved with the writing of the book, had an opinion on the matter???"

    Jeesh, He just asked a question. From what I read, he has given Flack credit for her answer. No insult was intended, yet you seem to have taken great umbrage over a simple question. Calling other people names gets you nowhere, but shows how small minded you all are.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 4, 2009 8:34 a.m.

    According to William Wilson Morrell, Son of Cyrus Wilson Morrell, Grandson of Benjamin Morrell, Unknown Binding, Anonymous, LDS History Archive, Page 40, and William Wilson Morrell, Biography, Anonymous, Unpublished Monograph of 3 Pages, Page 2,a log hospital was constructed cira 1884 at Fish Lake, Utah. It was abandoned in 1886-1887. A piano was in the downstairs parlor of the two story structure. Enuch Sorensen and William Jensen testified that Charles Anderson, among others, shot the keys off the piano in the abandoned building. Anderson was fined $90.00 for his vandalism.

    According to Perry Jackson, youngest son of Jeremiah "Kid " Jackson, Bill Long said that shooting the keys off the Fish Lake hospital piano was "the most expensive piano lesson I ever took".

    The Fish Lake abandoned hospital burned down during hunting season in the fall of 1889 under "mysterious circumstances". Therefore, the keys of the piano were shot off prior to fall, 1889.

    On October 16, 1901 Silas and Luzernia Morrell's third oldest daughter, Mary Frances, married Charles Anerson, making Charlie Bill Longs ste-son-in-law. Anerson never disputed Long's claim to being one of the culprits who whot off the piano keys.

  • Gaylen Robison
    May 4, 2009 8:52 a.m.

    Kid Lutefisk. You said "According to page 2, Preliminary report, Examination of William Long of Duchesne, Utah Nov. 15, 2007, Bill Long was approximately 5'8" in height at death in 1936." You should be troubled with that. I'm troubled that you even have a Preliminary report at all. Where did you get it? Who signed it? That first exhumation was done illegally. There was no court order, not even a hearing. They removed only the skull and a thigh bone for testing. They didn't even use rubber gloves. They didn't know. The whole affair was a first class boondoggle! City of Duchesne didn't know either, they gave permission and furnished the backhoe. The only reason g.grandpa Long was "approximately 5'8" was because somebody wanted him to be 5'8".
    Doctor McCullough was not even involved with it then. The FIRST legal exhumation was December, 2008.
    Maybe that's why it's taking longer to get results. I hope this sets the record straight on that.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 4, 2009 8:59 a.m.

    (continued) Uncle Earl Jackson in a July 2007 interview with Kid Nickle and yours truly, said that Charlie Anderson and Bill Long were employed at the Baker Horse Ranch, located approximately 20 miles northeast of Fremont in Paradise Valley. Uncle Earl fixed Long's employment at the Baker Horse Ranch from the time of Long's arrival in the area (1886-1889) until his marriage to the widow Luzernia Morrell on November 15, 1894.

    The Baker Horse Ranch in Paradise Valley is between 25 and 30 miles from the site of the Fish Lake hospital depending on which trail you take.

    Each of the evidentary items here are cross-corrobaration for the other and, if they are accurate, lead to the inescapable conclusion that Bill Long arrived in Utah before the late fall of 1889. If so, then Bill is not Harry.

    But then, we have the question, if Bill is not Harry, what was his history prior to arrival in Utah? The answer to that question is the same as for each and every other question discussed in these pages. It has been Hiding In Plain Sight for well over a century.

  • Daniel Buck
    May 4, 2009 10:05 a.m.

    Kid Lutefisk,

    Re Tom Nichols being involved in 1887 in George Newbery's Patagonian estancia venture. Specifically?

    Re Cassidy's 1907 letter about ranching in Bolivia and Tex Rickard's ranching enterprise in Paraguay hundreds of miles away and several years later. The point is?

    Context re Fred Dodge. Dodges 6 March 1909 letter to William Pinkerton (quoted in a 22 March letter from the Chicago Pinkerton manager to Denver manager McParland) is a request for information. After receiving a wanted circular, Dodge wrote on 18 March, saying, "I received some information about the last of Feb. that Butch Cassidy was seen," and rattling on about Cassidy, Maxwell, McCarty, and "a man by the name of Hall." "I feel pretty sure that this information is correct," Dodge adds helpfully.

    McParland replied to the Chicago manager 25 March with a several page letter disparaging Dodge's detective abilities, saying that Dodge often drew on his imagination," and that he had "little use for a man who has lived on hot air the number of years that Captain Dodge has done."

    Maybe McParland was right; maybe not. But his opinion provides context.

    Dan

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 4, 2009 10:25 a.m.

    Now the Bill Long crowd have used David Gillespie's letter to prove that Longabaugh was not in S. Dakota on June 28th at the time of the robbery, but the letter also proves that he wasn't in Utah either. Even if they say that Gillespie was "covering" for Longabaugh ie. saying that he was near Slater on the 29th when he really wasn't. What that means is that if he wasn't around Slater on the 28th, then he was actually at Belle Fourche robbing banks, since he was identified as one of the robbers.

    Bill Long being Harry Longabaugh lose both ways.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 4, 2009 11:18 a.m.

    Well, I see the PTB only posted half of my last comment. Well, I was just congratulating the new "Kid" on the block on his prowess in figuring out the impact of the Gillespie letter. Even though I have posted it twice already, no one except Kid Lutefisk bothered to notice that nine months before Evinda's birth date was actually June 29th (not July 29th)Harry Longabaugh could not have both been home making babies as Bill Long and either working for the Readers or robbing banks at the same time.

  • Anonymous
    May 4, 2009 11:56 a.m.

    GTB
    That makes Donna Ernst a member of the Bill Long crowd.

    Kid Lutefisk
    I guess Kite and Garner were one of many things you forgot to research.
    Nickol was not the money behind the Home Ranch saloon in Baggs, nor was he involved in Ryan's saloon operations in Rawlins and Walcott.
    Wyoming has a lot of potash, I understand potash is used for Lutfisk?


  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 4, 2009 1:16 p.m.

    Anonymous
    "That makes Donna Ernst a member of the Bill Long crowd." Two plus two does not equal five, even if you say it does. I guess your trouble with math is why you have been unable, all of this time, to realize there were problems with your timeline. First Morrell, and now Gillepsie.

  • AMP
    May 4, 2009 4:28 p.m.

    It's been quite a few weeks over the 8 week mark. Why have we not heard from anyone with news for so long? I admit I'm interested to see the outcome but I am definitely losing faith here...

  • Anonymous
    May 5, 2009 7:46 a.m.

    GTB
    You remind me of a one eyed calf, round and round, you go, dont know where you been nor where youre going.

    It seems you just cant comprehend what Gillespie implied. Harry Longabaugh probably did not participate in the Belle Fourche bank robbery. Bill Long was never mentioned in the letter. Ernst got it right, ask her to explain it to you.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 5, 2009 9:04 a.m.

    Is it possible for someone to tell me how long it takes for a comment to get posted? Because Mr. Buck, Anonymous, Ms Robison, and Ghosttown Bob were kind enough to reply to me, I responded to them. Quite awhile ago. I smell a rat. Then again, it might be lutefisk.

    As of 1992 I determined that computers were instruments of the devil, a fad, and would soon go away. I am still waiting for my prophesy to bear fruit. Perhaps it shall -- concurrent with the arrival of the Long/Longabaugh Test Results.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 5, 2009 9:39 a.m.

    Anonymous:
    Gillespie didn't "imply" anything. He stated quite plainly that Longabaugh was at Slater/Baggs/Dixon/Savery on the date of the Bell Forche robbery. Concurrent with Gillespie's letter, Longabaugh's attorney asked for a continuance in order to transport his witnesses to trial and named Gillespie, Al Reader, and Mrs. McIntosh among others. At that moment in time Bill Long was at Fremont, tripping the light fantastic with Luzernia.

    If Ernst in her new book says that Gillespie didn't name Longabaugh she is quite right. He doesn't. It will be very interesting to see how she treats this issue in view of the court records, the Gillespie monograph (not letter) the WPA Gouldy monograph, David Gillespie's WPA interview, and the Oliver St. material. In each of the listed documents Longabaugh is specifically named and two of them have David Gillespie driving Longabaugh in a buggy from Slater to the Reader Ranch to see a cowboy "friend".

    Then too, we have the question of W. D. "Billy" Smith being one of the arresting officers in both 1887 and 1897. In view of Smith's reputation it is unlikely he was confused about Longabaugh's identity.





  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 5, 2009 9:49 a.m.

    (Continued)If you look at the total of the material referenced here and then add the Fraser/Hadsell interview of Bob Lee in Laramie, I don't see how it is possible for a rational mind to conclude anything other than Longabaugh was on the Little Snake from January, 1897 as reported by the Craig Courrier through August 1, 1897 as reported by everyone else save Bob Lee.

  • Anonymous
    May 5, 2009 10:04 a.m.

    Get over it Lute, it's already in the can, move on to Butch.

  • Daniel Buck
    May 5, 2009 11:35 a.m.

    Kid L.,

    There is a brief note at the bottom of the comment page listing the reasons why a comment will not be posted.

    Dan

  • Anonymous
    May 5, 2009 1:23 p.m.

    There is a brief note at the bottom of the comment page listing the reasons why a comment will not be posted.
    Dan

    "Comments are monitored. Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted."

    What would we do without Dan?

  • Archer834
    May 5, 2009 2:37 p.m.

    For some reason my post never made it. What's going on with the DNA results? That would pretty much solve the whole thing. Either didn't get a good sample to compare, it DID or DID NOT match or it's still being processed.

    Welllllll?

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 5, 2009 2:46 p.m.

    Ms Robison:
    Please accept my apology for a tardy response. This is not my medium. Quill pens, parchment, and squat bottles of India Ink are far more in keeping with my personality and abilities.

    I believe there were three exhumations of Bill Long.

    Exhumation #1: The first exhumation was conducted some time prior to January, 2007. I corresponded with two individuals involved from approximately January, 2007, to approximately March, 2007. This exhumation was conducted pursuant to a court order. Subsequent to the exhumation, some family members expressed the opinion that the family member petitioning the court for the exhumation order did not possess sufficient clarity of mind to competently execute the petition. The purpose of the exhumation was to attempt to verify that Bill Long was Bill McCarty. The possibility originated with Perry Jackson, son of Jerimiah "Kid" Jackson and Chloe Jane Morrell Jackson. Perry's published statement said of Bill Long: "We all knew he was an outlaw. I think he was Bill McCarty." The person who performed the exhumation gave Bill Long's height at death as 5' 7", or McCarty's presumed height. A qualified laboratory extracted DNA from Long's remains.

  • Gaylen Robison
    May 5, 2009 3:06 p.m.

    Hi Harold Iverson, AKA GTB, and Kid Lutefisk. Are you really an Ex Pinkerton Agent? Are you absolutely not positive that you did not misrepresent?

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 5, 2009 3:18 p.m.

    The DNA extracted from Long's remains did not match a presumed McCarty donor sample. At the time of the exhumation Long's skull and femur were removed and the rest of the remains re-interred.

    Exhumation # 2: If the document entitled "Preliminary Report, Examination of William Henry Long of Duchesne, Utah, November 15, 2007" by John M. McCullough is valid, then the second exhumation took place on or about November 15, 2007, and Dr. McCullough was present. And if the referenced report is valid, Dr. McCullough found Long to be 5' 8" tall at death, just as I stated in my comment.

    Exhumation # 3: Appears to have taken place in December, 2008, judging from comments on this blog, including your own.

    Communication with persons involved directly or tangentially with all exhumations informed me that Long DNA from Exhumation #1 was compared to that of a presumed Longabaugh Donor in California following exhumation #2. The samples did not match. The theory was advanced that the Long DNA sample from exhumation #1 had become contaminated and that the contamination resulted in a "no-match" comparison. Thus, the need for Exhumation #3. Let me know where I've gone wrong.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 5, 2009 3:54 p.m.

    Mr. Buck:

    My apolgies to you as well, Sir. I've located the Word Counter, and I'll let you judge for yourself how appropriate my comment is.

    1.) Specifically. Siringo, Cowboy Detective, pp 51-65. I am using the Bison Books edition. Please refer to chapter III. The other major reference is Patterson, Historical Atlas of the Outlaw West, pp 211-212. Gatlin/McCoy, Moore, Hall/Nichols also appear in Riata & Spurs, Lonestar Cowboy, and a Texas Cowboy. I'm quite sure you're familiar with the Pinkerton files on the McCoy gang and Thomas Eskridge a/k/a Peg Leg Watson.

    I find the material descriptive of a Buenos Aires dentist at the head of a tough gang of outlaws numbering in the 100s in 1887, connected to Texan Tom Nichols/Hall simply astounding. When you and Ms Meadows considered and wrote about the reasons or reason Butch and Sundance lit out for South America, wouldn't this group of interlocking people, places,and outlaw characters predating their 1901 arrival by 14 years merit significant space in your book? I am greatly troubled by your failure to even discuss it.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 5, 2009 4:27 p.m.

    (continued)As far as Butch's letter from Santa Cruz is concerned I found several items highly significant. Near the end of his letter Butch says he and his companion are heading south and will be back at Concordia in approximately a month. Paraguay is, of course, south. The description of the land Hutcheon wanted is perfectly described and tallies exactly with the Rickard/Musgrave operations along the Rio Paraguay. The Tanners can't issolate arrival times in Paraquay for either Rickard or Musgrave. The Tanners give 1911 as Jano's arrival time but state that she might have arrived earlier or that Musgrave arrived earlier and told her about it. The Jebens family claimed 1910 or 1911 as the arrival time, but the 1910 Federal Census shows them absent from Little Snake River. At worst, all the significant players in Paraguay are moving toward Paraguay 24-30 months after the date of Butch's letter. If so, it is not credible that the target site wasn't selected before that -- and if you look at the 1908 and 1909
    reports within that context, I believe we can determine the approximate time frame the Rio Paraguay was selected.

  • Anonymous
    May 5, 2009 4:27 p.m.

    "When you and Ms Meadows considered and wrote about the reasons or reason Butch and Sundance lit out for South America, wouldn't this group of interlocking people, places,and outlaw characters predating their 1901 arrival by 14 years merit significant space in your book? I am greatly troubled by your failure to even discuss it."

    Come on KL, you can't mean that. Why our man Dan, will discuss anything. Especially what he has spoken.

  • Daniel Buck
    May 5, 2009 5:23 p.m.

    KL,

    Siringo presented two slightly different versions of the 1887 incident, 25 years later in A Cowboy Detective (1912), p. 63, and 40 years later in Riata and Spurs (1927, 2nd. ed. rev.).

    1912 version: Hall gave Bogan/McCory/Gatlin a letter of introduction to a dentist in Buenos Aires as a passport into a gang of 100 outlaws operating 1,200 miles from Buenos Aires. Hall showed Siringo a letter from a Texas murderer, Moore, perhaps the gang's leader and the dentist.

    1927 version: Bogan sails to Buenos Aires where "he found a friend in the person of a dentist who was a badman from Texas, and a friend to Tom Hall." Hall had already sent the dentist a letter asking him "to assist Gatlin in reaching an outlaw band on the Pampas, twelve hundred miles from Buenos Aires."

    In version two, Siringo implies that he got the story secondhand from Len Woodruff.

    cont'd

  • Daniel Buck
    May 5, 2009 5:26 p.m.

    1,200 miles from BsAs, by the way, puts the gang operating either in the Pacific Ocean 400 miles off the coast of Chile: in the Antarctic Ocean 200 miles south of Tierra del Fuego; or somewhere in Brazil, north of Bolivia.

    There is no evidence in the Argentine literature of any such Texas badman dentist or any such gang, amphibious or not.

    Why did BC&SK go to Argentina? By all accounts to homestead a ranch, which is what they did until they got chased out. News of free land in Argentina was published in the US newspapers; other ranchers in the Rockies had gone down there. Coincidentally, a dentist did have a role in their homesteading in Patagonia : New Yorker George Newbery, who was the American vice-consul in BsAS , as well as a land developer and rancher.

    Dan

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 5, 2009 5:46 p.m.

    (Continued) The reason I believe Dodge's 1909 letter to be the most critical of the three groups of letters is it closes the circle with Hall/Nichols exactly where we began in 1887. McParlan's comments are not context, they are criticism. You know perfectly well from reading the relevant personnel files that Robert and William, between 1902 and 1914, spent many hours corresponding about ways and means to pension off their old retainer at full salary without hurting his feelings. That is context for McParlan's comment. Context for Dodge's leter is that Maxwell, having arrived in Goldfield, Nevada as a strike breaker within the time frame of the Nelson-Gans fight promoted by Rickard is now back in Utah with Butch, Nichols, and McCarty. The 1910 Census will show Mid Nichols in the Nevada goldfields and Billy Sawtelle pouring Dan Parker a drink at the Iron Saloon at Parowan, Utah. Context, Mr. Buck. Context.

    Ms Meadows discussed Billy Sawtelle leaving Fremont County, where Bert Charter is ranching and freighting and Elzy Lay is ranching and bar tending, going to SA, and comming back with news of Butch's death. Why not discuss context?

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 5, 2009 6:29 p.m.

    Chuckle. Well done, Mr. Buck, well done. However at the conclusion of your most excellent and entertaining comment you gave yourself the slightest chance of escape by dropping the name George Newberry. Of course, George Newberry is the dentist --and temporary diplomat at Buenos Aires. His brother Ralph Lamertine Newberry oversaw ranching operations at Nahuel Huapi and had substantial interests in gold and silver mining attempts in Bolivia. The Newberry neighbors at Nahuel Huapi were Jared Jones and John Crockett who arrived in 1887 exactly as Ms Meadows wrote on Page 56 of DUBAS, and of course the Dentist in Buenos Aires with the outlaws in Patagonia in 1887. Now as to your Neptune Ranch. Well now, on August 10, 1902 Butch wrote to Maud Davis' mother at Ashley, Utah. Butch was writing from the Cholila Ranch. Ms Meadows, printed the letter on pages xi-xii. On xii Butch writes "It is 16 hundred miles to Buenos Aries...." Tell me, Mr. Buck, was Butch wearing a wet suit when he wrote? Snorkel? Of course Nahuel Huapi is 200 miles nearer Buenos Aires than the Cholila Ranch, and we now begin to approximate Moore's 1200 miles!

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 5, 2009 6:46 p.m.

    Au Contraire, ,mon ami. You must read more carefully and quote more accurately. Siringo is quite specific that he got the story of Brogart/Gatlin/McCoy murdering the boy from Len Woodruff, not the information regarding the dentist, the tough gang of outlaws and the ranch operations 1200 miles from BA. As to Cowboy Detective you know full well you have conjoined two separate letters and one statement by Siringo into a single "letter".

    1) Letter from Hall to Dentist.
    2.) Siringo statement of location.
    3.)Moore letter to Hall/Nichols.

    Come, come, Mr. Buck, your're much better than this tawdry performance. Let us have your best game!

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 6, 2009 6:18 a.m.

    Mr. Buck. I'm not satisfied with your characterization of Butch and Harry, having read newspaper accounts of free land in Patagonia, landing haphazzardly in Cholila with the comely Ethel Place in tow. Together we have established quite clearly that the circumstance of the three amigos parallels, exactly, the Tom Nichols/Hall - Newberry Brothers operations with American outlaws for the preceeding 14 years. Why then, in view of the 1909 Dodge letter joining Butch to Hall/Nichols, should we suppose that Butch and Harry chose Cholila independently of the Nichols-Newberry programed development of cattle ranching enterprise? No, your characterization is not credible.

    It is also not credible that Butch and Harry were "chased out" of Patagonia. To the contary, Dimaio did not arrive in BA until March 16, 1903. After Dimaio left BA, it was with the understanding that Newberry would take up the chase following the 1903 Patagonian winter. That, of course, did not happen. Indeed, despite continued Pinkerton efforts to gin up Agentine support for an invasion of Cholila, no such capture effort was forth comming. Nor should it have been expected with vice-counsul George Newberry providing cover for the outlaws in the Argentine capital.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 6, 2009 6:41 a.m.

    In Butch's August 10, 1902 letter to Mrs. Davis he states that, while "It is 16 hundred miles to BA" it is only 150 miles to the Chilean Coast. DUBAS, page xii. To take advantage of the drastically shortened route it is necessary to develop the Cochabamba trail which would lead to the packing plant in the Chilean city of the same name. In Butch's 1907 letter to the Boys at Concordia, Butch once again focuses on the packing plant: "It is 350 miles from here to Cochabamba and a hell of a road." DUBAS, p. 99.

    The three Amigos left Cholila, never once molested by law enforcement, on May 1, 1905. DUBAS, p.78. At the time the Cochabamba trail had opened and the packing plant was in full operation, to the very great benefit of Newberry-Nichols cattle operations as well as the rest of Patagonia. Butch and Harry sold their squatter's rights to a Chilean outfit, and on June 29, 1905, Harry and Ethel hopped a freighter to, ostensibly, California. DUBAS, p.79.

  • Daniel Buck
    May 6, 2009 7:24 a.m.

    Kid L.,

    In the mid/late-1880s, western Chubut was barely populated. If the Siringo anecdote has any basis at all, it's in reference to the Pampas, the region to the immediate west and south of BsAs. But as I mentioned earlier, there is nothing in the Argentine literature about a 100-member Yankee bandit gang in the 1880s (or ever). There were large, marauding Chilean gangs in the Andean foothills of northern Patagonia, but that was years later.

    Many Americans came to Argentina in the late 1800s/early 1900s, including Texans. The country was an immigrant magnet. Not everyone, though, has to be linked to Cassidy. Conspiracies and complots based on six-degrees-of-separation are easy to construct, but not very credible.

    As for your other points, read Gavirati (2007). For example, the Argentine police went after BC&SK following the February 1905 Rio Gallegos holdup (which the duo probably did not commit). BC&SK&EP fled to Chile. Normally, thats called being chased out.

    Dan

  • Horse Creek Cowboy
    May 6, 2009 11:47 a.m.

    To add more confusion relating to the Trio's entry into Patagonia, His late Majesty, Edward VII, did not determine whether Cholila was in Chile or Argentina until November 1902.

  • Jakey2
    May 6, 2009 12:34 p.m.

    I'm probably going to regret joining in but I have a comment and a few questions for Dan Buck.

    I sure hope you and Kid L keeping going. I've learned more about the Outlaws in an hour than I learned in ten years reading books about them. Is there any chance the two of you would stage a cage match? I'll by a ticket.

    I checked page 78 in your wife book and like Kid L says they left Argentina on May 1. Are you saying the posse was chasing them to Chile?

    If there weren't many people in Argentina in 1887, wouldn't that be a good place for outlaws to hide? Who would know they were there.

    Are you saying Charlie Seringus and Patterson made everthing up?

    Just asking. Thanks for a good show.

  • GORDON
    May 6, 2009 12:40 p.m.

    THERE IS A DNA FROM BILL LONG----THERE IS HARVEYS DNA-----I AND ANOTHER SUNDANCE RELATIVE HAVE GIVEN OUR DNA---WHY IS THIS ALL TAKING SO LONG?

  • Ancient Mariner
    May 6, 2009 12:43 p.m.

    I'm confused. If the DNA from the second time Long was dug up wasn't a match, which match are we waiting for? When did the negative match happen? Why did you dig Long up a third time?

  • Driftwood
    May 7, 2009 10:03 a.m.

    Mr. Buck discredits or ignores certain parts of Siringo and the Pinkerton Files that weakens what he has written or believes. He contends every thing in the Gavirati book trumps Siringo and the Pinkerton files. The Gavirati book is only published in Spanish and cannot be substantiated by other American author besides Mr. Buck because he is the only one that can read Spanish. When a conflict in his book is pointed out to him his respoce is read Gaviratis book. As far as he is concerned this ends the argument and he won the argument. He does not have to address the conflict in his book. Very convenient for Mr. Buck.
    Mr. Buck wrote the forward for Gavirati.

  • To: Eyepatch (Me, Myself and I)
    May 7, 2009 10:44 a.m.

    Its called a human interest story. Besides journalism is dead! What they put out for us to read half of it is ficticious or propoganda to get us to believe what they want us to.

  • Me, Myself and I
    May 7, 2009 11:08 a.m.

    The article definitely says the altercation over the supposed water theft happened in 1901. Maybe Bob does have dyslexia.

  • To: Granny T (Me, Myself and I)
    May 7, 2009 11:12 a.m.

    It is well noted and documented that Butch and the Wild Bunch were more like Robin Hoods than Boyz In The Hood. They may have been outlaws but they also shared their spoils with many in need.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 7, 2009 11:40 a.m.

    The Deseret News printed Edition for Feb 16, 2009 Column 1, page B8, fourth paragraph down says: "Oct 24, 1910." Look it up in the Library, it's there for all to see.

    The Deseret News Online editors made the correction for the online article to read "Oct 24, 1901" on Feb 18th with no mention of their revision.

    No dyslexia here.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 7, 2009 12:14 p.m.

    Kid Lutefisk: Concerning the exhumations of Bill Long. This topic has been discussed several times on this board and at the KSL site. Your assessment of the exhumations seems to be pretty accurate. The "Family" has been insistent that exhumation #2 (Nov 15, 2007) was just for the purpose of putting Long's bones back, that his body wasn't disturbed, and that no tests were done at that time. Of course they wouldn't admit that Dr. McCullough took measurements and made a forensic examination of the remains at the time, or that his bones were removed and placed in a vault upon re-burial.

    My sources have also told me that the "Families" position was that "not enough DNA" was found to make a valid comparison which is what led to a "no-match" to the Long descendant. They originally had wanted to do a Y-Chromosome comparison, but switched in early 2008 to hunting for maternal descendants for Mt-DNA testing.

    This last exhumation, I understand was again for Y-Chromosome testing. Perhaps Gorden can enlighten further about what he was told when he was recruited for testing.

  • Disintrested Observer
    May 7, 2009 12:22 p.m.

    ". . .besides Mr. Buck because he is the only one that can read Spanish."

    I think several million people in Latin & South America, as well as the Philippines and Spain may disagree with you.

  • Disintrested Observer
    May 7, 2009 12:32 p.m.

    On the other hand, Mr. Buck, when might the rest of us that don't read Spanish be able to read the above mentioned book? Might you not be able to persuade Mr. Gavirati to provide an English translation of at least parts of it?

  • Wonder why
    May 7, 2009 2:13 p.m.

    Why today do we see those, to avoid being held responsible for what they say or do, or not being able to verify/prove their own theories, (includes politicians) turn to running the other down. It has become a habit for far too many. If one is right, what does the opinion of one who does not agree matter? If wrong, seems like it would be best to not ask at all.

    WW

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 7, 2009 2:37 p.m.

    Ghosttown Bob:

    (1) I hope you weren't offended by the Hollywoods thinking you and I were the same person. I'm a dead ringer for Cary Grant in his prime. You?

    (2) Thank you for your clarifications. You appear to know what you're talking about.

    (3) In defense of Jerry Nickle I would like to say that I personally know the man to be possessed of a character beyond reproach. Along that line, I believe it to be entirely unfair of all of us to demand that Jerry reveal the crux of his position -- DNA testing match/no match on this blog, for free. The man not only has a book forthcomming, and a movie, but he has spent a considerable amount of money developing both of these properties to my benefit, yours, and every other American citizen interested in our history. The same is true for our host, Deseret News. We would not be able to discuss this topic but for their investment of time and money in hosting this site. When they printed a correction on the 1901/1910 error we ought to compliment them, not denigrate them. Thank you Jerry, thank you Deseret News.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 7, 2009 2:59 p.m.

    (Continued)

    4.) Jerry and his group acted with the highest moral and ethical standards in the second exhumation. We must all remember that exhumation #2 was conducted solely for the purpose of re-internment of Long's skull and femur, making the remains whole in the grave. That was a kindness to the family and Jerry footed the bill out of his own pocket. Imagine if your loved one was not complete in his/her final resting place. Wouldn't you want the remains whole in the grave? I would.

    5.) Dr McCullough acted responsibly and with the highest professional standards at exhumation #2. He had only a brief time at the grave to observe the remains. Because the primary purpose of the exhumation was to make the remains whole, not to conduct a complete forensic examination, Dr McCullough labeled his report "Preliminary" and quite plainly stated the circumstances.

    6.) The third exhumation resulted from the discovery that the DNA sample obtained at Exhumation #1 could not possibly be vetted due to the Chain of Custody mandate for any responsible procedure designed to compare DNA between two donors. The purpose of the exercise is to locate family members.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 7, 2009 3:10 p.m.

    7.) The fact that DNA test results are not released in advance of publication of Jerry's book and the relase of his film, is in no way properly construed as evidence that there is a match or no match of the DNA. I expect that if you want to know the result, you'll have to buy the book, watch the movie, or read Deseret News. I intend to do all three.

    8.) If you read this blog you benefit from a lively discussion of facts with a hard-edge, pointed discussion of annotated evidence, and a no-nonsense look at comlicated evidence by quality professionals. What else do you want? Buy a book, watch a film, buy a newspaper. We call that education, jouralism, and information.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 7, 2009 4:17 p.m.

    (Continued) 9.) As you read this blog pay strict attention to standards and ethics. Hold everyone to the highest standards of both. If you do you will find that Deseret News is passionately devoted to the exercise of our collective First Amendment Rights. Jerry Nickle is passionately devoted to professional standards regarding citation to specific documents. Dan Buck? No. If you own a copy of DUBAS, and you ought to, what you will notice is that Ms Meadows does not use a single Chapter Note, Foot Note, or End Note. Not one, and that is a fact.
    Kid Nickle, on the other hand, is the most fastidious fellow I know about citations. I expect his book will have enough citations to keep all of us busy through, at minimum, the next decade. With Jerry, you will know where to find the piece of evidence he cites as authority. You may agree or disagree with him, but there will be no question about where the man got the evidence he is arguing.
    Get a copy of Deseret News. Pick a story. Turn on a TV or read another newspaper. What you will find is that your story is supported.

  • Anonymous
    May 7, 2009 6:40 p.m.

    "Jerry Nickle is passionately devoted to professional standards regarding citation to specific documents. Dan Buck? No. If you own a copy of DUBAS, and you ought to, what you will notice is that Ms Meadows does not use a single Chapter Note, Foot Note, or End Note. Not one, and that is a fact."

    why is this so, Mr. Buck, or Ms. Buck?

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 8, 2009 6:22 a.m.

    Anonymous:

    Right on sister! Your question is fair, proper, valid, ethical, and, if Mr Buck gives you the courtesy of the reply you deserve we all will benefit.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 8, 2009 9:35 a.m.

    Anonymous: Did you ever really read "Digging Up Butch and Sundance?" It is not written as an historical work. It was written by Anne Meadows as a travel book across South America, with a Butch and Sundance theme. It tells the story of where they went and what they found. Not as a book on history. If you have ever read any of Buck's history articles, they are very well annotated and referenced as they should be.

    . . . but I think you already knew this. You just wanted to show off your ignorance.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 8, 2009 9:57 a.m.

    Kid Lutefisk: Actually I'm not offended, though I think that Gaylen thinks I am Harold Iverson, not you, and Gaylen, I am not saying whether I am, or I am not. I'll keep you guessing for a while longer. I do however look like Harrison Ford, but with a much larger stomach.

    As for Jerry, and bunch. I have never doubted their sincerity, or their documentation, or their passion for the subject. Jerry is a great individual and I am sure he is making every effort to document what he has.

    What I have doubted are their conclusions linking William Henry Long to Harry Longabaugh. For the most part, they have either mis-interpreted their sources, or relied too much on hearsay/rumor from past/present family members, while doubting the veracity of the valid research of others. Calling everything you do not agree with as "fake" is a poor way of proving your point.

    Yes, I doubt that Jerry will reveal the results of the DNA tests on this board, even though he has hinted that he would. Any smart person would wait for the book and documentary.

  • Dora du Fran
    May 8, 2009 12:41 p.m.

    On page 123 of Donna Ernst's new book, The Sundance Kid, Ms Ernst claims that the Fort Worth Five photograph, taken November 21, 1900, was discovered in the window of theSwartz photography studio by Fred J. Dodge, a Wells, Fargo detective. Ms Ernst claims that Dodge made 50 prints of the photo and then, from his office at 817 Main Street in Fort Worth, mailed a copy to the Pinkertons, who in turn sent one to George Nixon in Winnemucca. As authority Ms Ernst, at end note 6 on page 215, cites "wanted" poster from the Malta train robbery, reprinted on page 119 of her book. On page 119 Ms Ernst reproduces Reward Circular No. 3 for the Winnemucca Bank Robbery, issued November 14, 1904, which has absolutely nothing to do with the Fort Worth Five Photo or the Malta train robbery except that Malta is listed as one of Longabaugh's alleged offenses. It gets much worse.

    The Wells Fargo Agent at 817 Main Street in 1900 was not Fred J. Dodge, but rather, Nicholas J. McGinnis. (Selcer, Hell's Half Acre, page 262)

    CONTINUED......

  • Dora du Fran
    May 8, 2009 12:53 p.m.

    In 1900 Fred J. Dodge and his family lived in San Antonio, not Fort Worth. (Patterson, Butch Cassidy, Note 22, Page 311)The Fred J. Dodge letter of March 6, 1909 to McParland, previously discussed on this blog opens with the following sentence: "I would thank you to furnish me a history of Butch Cassidy also a photo if you have one." If Dodge had fifty prints of the photo in 1900, 49 after Ms Ernst claims he mailed one to the Pinkertons, why would he write to the Pinkertons 9 years later and ask for a photo of Butch? Why did Ms Ernst fabricate a citation? Why didn't Mr Buck bring the Dodge letter forth years ago?

  • GORDON
    May 9, 2009 10:13 a.m.

    I was told my DNA was to help prove or disprove that Bill Long was the Sundance Kid---since his great grandfather Conrad was my great-great-great grandfather there would be a 1/16th match----I stated my DNA was to be used in the public domain----I do not understand why everyone is playing cat and mouse?

  • jimlyn
    May 9, 2009 1:23 p.m.

    Gordon, I am not an expert in dna, but you should be a one to one match with Conrad. If Mr Long is SK then he too should be a one to one match. Y chromosome is very mutant resistant. I have had several matches with my dna and all are a one to one match going back at least two hundred years. And the cat and mouse is politics and money. But I don't blame Mr Nicols for taking the time to do it right.

  • A friend of JN
    May 9, 2009 3:32 p.m.


    Gordon
    Jerry Nickle tells me, he did not ask you to furnish a DNA sample? If Jerry Nickle did not then who did?

    GTB
    Jerry Nickle told me he knows exactly who you are and you are not Kid Lutefish.

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 9, 2009 3:58 p.m.

    Jerry Nichol is not "playing Politics" and he is not driven by greed. Jerry has been up-front with everyone. He got involved in this project to:

    (1)Rejoin Bill Long's remains in his grave with the highest regard for the sensibilities of his family.

    (2) Collect DNA samples for the purpose of attempting to discover possible relatives, only one of which group might be the Longabaugh line.

    (3) Materially advance the understanding of the American people regarding their history by providing each of us with a highly detailed analysis of historic documents, and providing each of us with the actual documents, word for word.

    Jerry Nickle has a lot to do. The man never once asked for money or time from any one of us. There are no tax dollars involved in his work. Jerry, his family, and his friends, have provided the money, time, and sacrifice for the benefit of the Longs, Longabaughs, and the American people. The most stiking feature is that while Ms Ernst has twice remarked on the similar characteristics between the man who claimed to be the Sundance Kid's son, she has done abolutely nothing to investigate the matter. (Continued)

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 9, 2009 4:25 p.m.

    Jerry is investigating. Jerry is spending his own money, time and effort, depriving his family, using the resaources of his family, friends, climbing into the saddle and riding into the blistering heat of the San Rafael, thirsty, hot , tired, over-age, and in poor health. He does that for you, Gordon.

    I believe that Jerry Nickle, my fellow saddle tramp, has more honesty, brains, dedication, integrity, love for his American colleagues, and courage than any other man I know. I'm proud to call the man my friend. We disagree. We fight, argue, and insult each other like an old married couple. In the end, our disagreements advance the ball.Each and every one of the readers of this blog
    benefits. You already have knowledge no one else does, you've already been privy to the 1908, and 1909 material. If you stay on this blog, you're going to get more solid information on American History, the men and women who really settled the west, the Parkers, Longabaughs, and others, than you will ever get from any other source short of Jerry's book or mine. Oops! Does Deseret News have a scoop?

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 9, 2009 5:32 p.m.

    Ghosttown Bob and I are two entirely different people. As previously stated I am a dead ringer for Cary Grant in his prime. On the other hand,GTB is a dead ringer for Harrison Ford.How could you possibly confuse the two of us?

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 9, 2009 6:09 p.m.

    In the interests of full disclosure, I admit I am not Ghosttown Bob. Readers of this blog might well wonder why only two bloggers, Ms Robison and Anonymous, focus on the issue of who is whom. The rest of us debate issues, or try to, with fact, footnote, and argument under normal rules of constructive debate.

    The only two bloggers, Ms Robison and Ms Anonymous who snipe at identities sans fact, regard for truth, and total disregard for fact are Ms. Robison and Ms. Anonymous.

    Got the guts to go one on one with Kid Lutefisk, Ms Robison and Ms Anonymous? Are either one of you really stupid enough to take me on? Do you really want your foibles revealed in public? How anxious are either of you to have your worst secrets made public?

    Ladies, I'm your absolute worst nightmare. In the words of Henry Higgins, "The Angles will weep for you." I look forward with unbridled anticipation to your response.

    Kid Lutefisk

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 9, 2009 7:51 p.m.

    Ghotsttown Bob:
    While the ladies debate the wisdom of going one on one with me, I would very much appreciate your opinion on the issue of the Gillespie letter relative to the new book by Ms Ernst. Because Ms Ernst, in her new book, acknowledges that the Gillespie letter of October 12, 1897, is depositive of the issue as to Harry Longabaugh's involvement in the Belle Fourche robbery, are we all now at the point where Bill Long is excluded, ipso invedio, as being the same person as Harry Longabaugh? Oh, querry, querry, Sir.

    I remain your humble servant.

    Butch,
    Also Known As Kid Lutefisk

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 9, 2009 8:40 p.m.

    Ghosttown Bob:

    We are very rapidly drawing this matter to a close. I believe you are quite right in that Jerry is sincere in his quest. The supporting players, however, are far from being what they pretend to be.

    We are all watching a train-wreck in the making, and that is a tragedy for Jerry, his family, and his friends, both you and I among the latter. Once the HollywoodS arrived, "Truth was the first casualty." Some of us, Jerry's pals, took the precaution on his behalf to protect him. To that end, being mindful of the axiom regarding lawsuits for either defamation or libel, that "Truth is the ultimate defense", we have carefully prepared for the eventuality that our future legal opposition is, shall we say, "litigious".

    The issue of litigation was never in doubt. Jerry's sincerity, dedication, resolve, integrity, and personal committment to principles was never in doubt. Only the offal that spiraled down the drain within the orbit of Jerry's star are not identified. That will be corrected when Ms Robison and Anonymous surface for battle.

    Of course, my ultimate target is Mr. Buck, with the secondary target being Ms. Ernst.

  • Dora du Fran
    May 9, 2009 8:57 p.m.

    I thought I asked an intelligent series of questions. I put work and thought into my comment. No one has responded to me. So far this blog has concerned itself with comments between insiders bent on crucifying each other. May we please return to constructive, informative, debate of the issues?

  • Kid Lutefisk
    May 9, 2009 9:36 p.m.

    Madame Du Fran,

    Thank you for drawing attention to our collective bad behavior. Please allow me the honor of apologizing first for our transgressions.

    Ms. Ernst is quite notorious for innapropriate citations, poor form in citations, innacurate citations, outrageously poor scholarship, abysmal technique, and an ever-present proclivity to mis-characterize citations, a la Mr Buck.

    In my very humble opinion, page 123 is the epitome of outrageous scholarship. Would you, Ma'm, favor our discussion group with your analysis? I'm quite sure we would all be in your debt.

    Butch

  • Dora du Fran
    May 9, 2009 10:39 p.m.

    As to the matter of whether or not you, Sir, Mr. Butch, are forgiven, that matter will remain in doubt for the time being.

    Ms Ernst, on page 123, deliberately confuses and intertwines 2 documents, the WPA Gouldy Interview, and the subsequent monograph of David Gillespie the son of David Gillespie.

    To begin, Ernst says that Harry was asked by Gillespie if the stories of Harry being a member of the Wild Bunch was true. There are two different responses. The Gillespie response was: "No Dave, that isn't true." The Gouldy response was that Harry admitted robbing the Winnemucca Bank.

    In the Gillespie version, Harry "slept in the barn to save money". In the Gouldy version Harry slept in the barn to avoid recognition. Really? Longabaugh was a steady fixture from at least 1896 through 1897 in Little Snake Valley. He would be recognized by everyone!

    There are multiple and significant differences between Gillespie and Gouldy. If you wish to know where they are, what they are, and read a full description of the event see Jerry's book and see Butch and Cherokee,s book.

  • Shoshoni
    May 9, 2009 10:54 p.m.

    I was present at the Medicine Wheel when the Cheorkee told the story of the five rivers. The Cherokee pointed at the Bear's Tooth and the rivers of life flowing from the medicine wheel. If the Cheorkee is Kate, make your sign known.

  • Butch and Cherokee
    May 9, 2009 11:19 p.m.

    Kid Norski is Butch Iverson
    Cherokee Kate is Butch's wife
    Kid Nickle is Jerry Nickle
    Belle Nickle is Jerry's wife

    The Nickle family and the Iversons are close friends. Dora du Fran is an outbounder who gave away a secret that she ought not to have revealed. Never-the-less, Jerry and Butch, with separate books comming out, actually do fight, argue, and then kiss and make up. Both the Cherokee and Belle are long suffering wives who watch their men, roll their eyes to the heavens, and then offer prayers
    on behalf of their men.

  • Cherokee Kate
    May 9, 2009 11:40 p.m.

    Shoshoni,

    The five rivers and the Bear's Tooth are true. The five rivers wedded to the Bear's Tooth are the Shakopee of the Dakota.

  • Anonymous
    May 10, 2009 12:16 p.m.

    It's Gooldy not Gouldy. The Gillespie responce "No Dave, that isn't true." was made well before the Winnemucca robbery.

  • Jerry Nickle
    May 10, 2009 4:51 p.m.

    Butch Iversons Book will trump everything else that has been published. He will have the most compressive research published to date. I can hardly wait to read it.
    We disagree on a few things, we fight and I swear I will not to speak to him again and then we kiss and make up. I am drawn like a moth to fire.
    After this is finished we are going to cerebrate by shooting up the Red Dog Saloon in old Giles town. Cherokee Kate and Belle Nickle will be there, and I hope a few other people will be there too.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 11, 2009 8:54 a.m.

    I hope everyone had a wonderful Mother's Day weekend.
    Butch/Lutefisk: Sorry I started the ball rolling on this identity thing, which resulted in getting your cover blown. I was just funnin around. Ms Robison has been trying to guess who I am for months.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 11, 2009 9:34 a.m.

    Butch/Lutefisk: You asked the question concerning David Gillespie's 12 October 1897 letter: "Because Ms Ernst, in her new book, acknowledges that the Gillespie letter of October 12, 1897, is depositive of the issue as to Harry Longabaugh's involvement in the Belle Fourche robbery, are we all now at the point where Bill Long is excluded, ipso invedio, as being the same person as Harry Longabaugh?

    To answer your question, yes it does. For Evinda to have been William Henry Long's daughter, he would have had to have been in Fremont around June 29th. Gillespie's letter clearly states his friend, whom he does not name, was working for Al Reader up until the middle of July. abd that he was in Slater on June 27th and the Reader Ranch on the 28th. He also implies that he was in the neighborhood until Aug. 1st.

    Now Gillespie in the letter did not name who his friend was. The other records you have previously names all identify him as either Harry Alonzo, Harry Longabaugh, or both. To add to you impressive list you may also want to include:

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 11, 2009 9:44 a.m.

    (Continued): The Buffalo "Peoples Voice" 30 Oct 1897 issue, and the "Rawlins Journal" from which the "Peoples Voice" story was taken which both name Harry Alonzo as the person arrested for the Belle Fourche Robbery but who was sending to the Slater/Baggs area for witnesses to vouch that he was in Slater at the time of the robbery.

    Now unless someone can prove that Harry Alonzo was not Harry Longabaugh, this is proof that Harry Longabaugh and William Henry Long are not one and the same.

    Now I suspect that all this is leading to your announcement of who you think Long is.

  • Butch
    May 11, 2009 2:09 p.m.

    Ghosttown Bob:

    No harm, no foul. I expect about 99.9% of the players on this blog all know who each other are. The wonderful thing about this blog is that there is an incredible amount of solid, published evidence on it that has not yet found its way into either one of Ms Ernst's books, or anything Ms Meadows or Mr. Buck have published. This is a win/win blog for all of us.

    If you're anticipating an announcement from me as to who I think Bill Long is, I'm afraid I'm going to disapoint you. The reason is quite simple. Kid Nickle and I are still arguing that one. I'm not about to do that while the jury is still out. Allow me to use an example. Consider the issue of hight.

    1.) Dr McCullough found Bill Long, at death, in 1936 to be 5' 8" tall.

    2.) The only definative height measurement of Harry Longabaugh was at his age 20 in 1887 when he was incarcerated at Sundance, Wyoming.

    Continued ...........

  • Butch
    May 11, 2009 2:24 p.m.

    3.) It is common knowledge that we all "shrink" a bit as we age. The "shrink with age factor" can be exacerbated by the type of life we individually lead.

    4.) Both Bill Long and Harry Longabaugh were acknowledged Bronc Stompers and made their living breaking horses. Constant pounding of the spinal column will exacerbate the spinal disk compression process, resulting in a greater shrink with age factor.

    5.) Because we are only talking about a 1" variation in recorded height between a 20 year old and a 69 year old, both known horse breakers, it is perfectly reasonable that 5' 9" 20-year old Harry could be 69-year old Bill.

    Kid Nickle and I argue based on fact and evidence. It keeps us young. That is why, at my age I look like a middle age Cary Grant. As you very well know, Kid Nickle bears a striking resemblance to a middle age Gary Cooper. People who make personal attacks on others seem to have a different result as they age.

  • Butch
    May 11, 2009 4:56 p.m.

    Ghosttown Bob:

    I genuinely appreciate you answering my question regarding the October 12, 1897 Gillespie letter. Oddly, I answered my own question exactly opposite of the way you answered it. I do not believe that Ms Ernst's published belief that the letter exonerates Harry from the Belle Fourche to be dispositive. Indeed, all Ms Ernst published statements prove is that As of 2009 Ms Ernst has arrived where every informed person has been at since October 12, 1897.

    Ms Ernst's progress is truly remarkable. In 1992, when she authored Sundance, My Uncle, she was ignorant of the Gillespie letter. A mere 17 years later she has corrected the error of SMU.

    Notwithstanding the foregoing, every unresolved issue that existed before the moment of Ms Ernst's enlightenment remains with us still. Consider:

    1.) Gillespie did not name the incarcerated person.

    2.) Montana Stock Growers Association Stock Detective, William D. "Billy" Smith, arrested Harry Longabaugh in 1887, and a man calling himself Frank Jones in 1897. When the same arresting officer arrests a man calling himself Longabaugh and then arrests a man calling himself Jones, if the two are the same person, shouldn't the officer say so?

  • Butch
    May 11, 2009 5:15 p.m.

    (Continued) 3.) On October 13, 1897 the 8th Judicial Court in Butte County indicted O'Day, Punteney, Thomas Jones, and Frank Jones, all of whom were in custody. Indicted in absentia were George Currie and Harvey Logan. If W. D. Smith knowingly allowed the court to indict Longabaugh under a false name, he violated his obligation to the court.

    4.) When Fraser and Hadsell interviewed Bob Lee in prison, Lee identified the man in custody, Tom Jones, as Harvey Logan, who had been indicted in absentia. He didn't directly name Longabaugh as anyone. He named "Frank Scramble" as Logan's indicted side kick.

    If you have ever seen a competent defense lawyer at work then you will believe me when I tell you if you gave one this set of facts with Harry Longabaugh in the docket, the court would dismiss the charges with the court's apologies to Mr Longabaugh or Long as the case may be.

    Before I make up my mind, I want to hear Jerry Nickle out.

  • Jerry Nickle
    May 12, 2009 12:16 a.m.

    Butch
    Dora du Fran did not reveal anything that was not know already known, so what are you talking about? She appears to be a well-informed person and she is a mystery to me. GTB and I have posted what we know, so if there is a secret, why wont you post it? If you will not post it then at least tell us the reason.

  • R Leroy
    May 12, 2009 6:37 a.m.

    Butch, who did jail time for the Wilcox train robbery?

    R L

  • Jerry Nickle
    May 12, 2009 8:01 a.m.

    Butch
    You say before you tell us whom Bill long really was you are going to hear me out. You and every one else have heard me out. I have a web site telling the story. The Deseret News published two different articles. My position is Bill Long was the Sundance Kid. Dan Bucks position is B&S were killed in Bolivia and he published his belief. We all know Bucks and mine so the time has come for you to do as you say you will and tell us yours,

  • Not Butch
    May 12, 2009 8:15 a.m.

    R Leroy- Robert E. Lee, cousin of the Logan brothers, spent 6 years 9 months of a ten year sentence for mail robbery. Convicted in May of 1900 and released on February 13, 1907. Although he had part of the money he probably was not there at the robbery.

  • R L
    May 12, 2009 10:10 a.m.

    Thank you Not Butch. That is about what I had been told.

    R L

  • Rod
    May 12, 2009 11:52 a.m.

    Hey Bybee....I also have relatives in Grafton cemetery....half of the cemetery...What grave are you related to?

  • Butch
    May 12, 2009 5:17 p.m.

    Jerry:
    Before I made up my mind on the October 12, 1897 Gillespie letter I wanted to hear you out on that one issue, among many others.

    Ghosttown Bob wanted to know if I was going to make an announcement relative to whom I thought Bill Long was. I'm not ready to do that because all of the evidence isn't in. I'm still tracking my candidate. The Bill Long who married Luzernia had a history prior to that time. William Long is a common name. I'm working exactly as I always work, from the base documents. That includes the Federal Census of 1900, 1910, 1920, and 1930, and others.

  • Butch
    May 12, 2009 5:38 p.m.

    Jerry Nickle:

    I've told you repeatedly I'm completely disinterested in the question of Bill Long being Harry Longabaugh. Nothing profitable will come of such discussions simply because, as a matter of logic, it is not possible for Bill to be Harry.

    What I do find interesting, however, is how the evidence is handled, how different people looking at the same evidence can reach different conclusions as to what the evidence says, and how different people in different disciplines argue.

    The William Long who married Luzernia is a different person than the Harry Longabaugh arrested by W. D. "Billy" Smith in 1887.Is the person arrested by W. D. "Billy" Smith in 1897 the same person as he arrested in 1887? The answer to that question is every bit as important as the question of why Mr. Buck failed to mention the 1887 Nichols/Newberry joint venture in Patagonia.

    Ernst is no different. She places Harry square in the thick of things at Keeline, April 20/21, 1886. Shouldn't Ernst have discussed the Nichols/Hall combination? Why didn't she mention that W. D. "Billy" Smith was the arresting officer in both 1887 1n3 1897?

  • Butch
    May 12, 2009 6:08 p.m.

    R. L:

    Not Butch gave you an excellent answer, Robert E. Lee. Lee's imprisonment is relative to any discussion of the Gillespie letter only because he names "Frank Scramble" as being in jail with Harvey Logan in October 1897 in Deadwood, accused of the Belle Fourche robbery. As NB said, Lee wasn't one of the robbers and when Fraser and Hadsell interviewed him both commented that he would have said anything to get released.

    Was "Frank Scramble" Harry Longabaugh? Was the 1897 "Hobo Photograph" Harvey Logan as Lee maintained? Or, were Thomas and Frank Jones, really Harvey and Lonny Logan, with the "Hobo Photo" being Lonny, not Harvey? Edward Kirby, who published The Rise and Fall of the Sundance Kid in 1983, seems to have started the confusion on page 35. There, Kirby writes that Harvey Logan was listed as Harve Ray! Kirby goes on to name Harry Longabaugh as Frank Jones. Take it from there. This is how train wrecks happen.

  • Dora du Fran
    May 12, 2009 7:39 p.m.

    Boys, Boys, Boys! Rather than sowing more seeds of confusion, why not sow a few more wild oats?

    As you all very well know I am the first person in history to franchaise Sporting Houses. I had three in 1897, one of which was used to case the bank in Belle Fourche and one of which staged the October 31, 1897, jail break, in Deadwood.

    On the jail break, horses were held behind the jail. Five jail inmates escaped: Thomas Jones, Frank Jones, Tom O'Day, Walt Punteney, and ....

    O'Day and Punteney weren't given horses to use for an escape and they were captured, on foot in Spearfish Canyon near Bridal Veil Falls.

    The Jones Boys and ..... made a clean escape on the horses provided by "the two" David Gillespie wrote to his mother about.

    The name of the 5th prisoner was William C. Moore. Governor Heber M. Wells believed Moore and the others hid out at Waterhole Flat after escaping. Moore was the surname of the man in SA who wrote to Tom Nichols about the BA Dentist, Newberry, in 1887. But William C. Moore was the name of a very important figure for us. Who?

  • Jerry Nickle
    May 13, 2009 7:58 a.m.

    Dura du Fran writes:
    The name of the 5th prisoner was William C. Moore. Governor Heber M. Wells believed Moore and the others hid out at Waterhole Flat after escaping. Moore was the surname of the man in SA who wrote to Tom Nichols about the BA Dentist, Newberry, in 1887. But William C. Moore was the name of a very important figure for us. Who?

    That is very significant. Can you give more details?

  • Dora du Fran
    May 13, 2009 8:52 a.m.

    Jerry Nickle:

    You will want to read, carefully, the letter Governor Wells wrote to your illustrious ancestor, "C. W. Allred Esq., Sheriff, Price, Utah" dated April, 18th, 1898. The letter will be found in the Governor's papers in the Salt Lake City archieve in the Old Depot building. In the letter Governor Wells is asking Sheriff Allred to form a posse with Joe Bush, then at Loa, to attack the Wild Bunch. Governor Wells pinpointed the point of attack by saying the gang he wanted apprehended had just crossed at Dandy Crossing. He goes on to say:

    "...the outlaws, among whom it is said there are Joe Walker, Jack Moore, a negro (sic)supposed to be Moore from Dakota, and perhaps the Jones brothers, also from Dakota...."

    If you carefully look at the newspaper reports of the October 31, 1897, Deadwood jail break, you will see that William C. Moore was a "light skinned Negro" (sic) being held on a murder charge. Moore had been previously employed by the Swan ranch. The three men who escaped from Deadwood were Thomas Jones, Frank Jones, and William C. Moore.

    Continued

  • Dora du Fran
    May 13, 2009 9:19 a.m.

    Governor Wells, in his letter, went on to link "Jack Moore" with the "Buhr Ranch". Separate from the letter Governor Wells also authorized a reward for Jack Moore: "$500 for Jack Moore: Height 5' 11"; spare made: 35 or 36 years of age; has one shoulder broken: dark sallow complexion; looks like a Spaniard...."

    Go back to 1887 and the letter from the outlaw in Argentina to Tom Nichols. The surname of the outlaw was Moore.

    The third incidence of "Moore" was William C. Moore, the identical name of Dakota escapee Moore who rode into the Texas Panhandle in 1878 on, according to Charlie Siringo, "a worn out pony." That William C. Moore, a/k/a "Outlaw Bill Moore" claimed to have been a former range boss for the Swan ranch and who killed "the Negro(sic) coachman" at Swan.

    The Swan operated on the same range at the same time as Tom Nichols was foreman at the Keeline.

    My advice to you is to continue to look very carefully at "William C. Moore/Jack Moore" and Thomas and Frank Jones. Is 1887 Harry Longabaugh the 1897 Harry Longabaugh?

    Continued ....

  • Dora du Fran
    May 13, 2009 9:33 a.m.

    Is it possible that there is the 1887 Harry Longabaugh who went to SA, an 1897 person who appropriated the alias "Harry Longabaugh", and a third person who was confused with Harry Longabaugh?

    If there are three different William C. Moores, why can't there be three different Harry Longabaughs?

    Ben "Tall Texan" Kilpatrick was arrested under the name of "Harry Longabaugh". According to Ms Ernst's new book, Kilpatrick had the name "Harry Longabaugh" written inside one of his possessions at the time of his arrest. Was Kilpatrick the Harry Longabaugh of the 1901 Pinkerton report placing him in Price, Utah, while another Harry Longabaugh is in SA?

    Perhaps both you and Butch are correct. Butch said that Bill Long is not the 1887 Harry. You maintain that Bill Long is Harry Longabaugh. If there are multiple Harry Longabaughs, could you both be right?

    Butch called me on a mistake. He was quite right. I was first to announce Butch has a book in the works. I shouldn't have done that.

  • Kid Montana
    May 13, 2009 2:11 p.m.

    Dora du Fran:

    I think Governor Wells calling the Jones boys "brothers" is good evidence that they are Harvey and Lonny Logan, who were in fact brothers, and not Harvey Logan and Harry Longabaugh, who were not related. That would mean that the guys locked up in jail didn't include Longabaugh. It also means that the Gillespie letter has no impact on Bill Long being one of the Longabaughs. He could have been in Fremont when the bank got robbed, and still be one of the Longabaughs.

    What do you think?

  • Not Butch
    May 13, 2009 2:31 p.m.

    Butch- Your comment yesterday evening concerning the possibility of the photo of Harve Logan (UP RR photo taken after arrest in Montana) being Loney Logan and possibly the larger Jones being Harvey Logan is a little absurb. Whether or not you were serious I don't know but the description of the larger Jones brother was not indicative of either Harve or Loney Logan. The reason that Harve Ray comes into play is because he was arrested in Dakota in 1895 and placed in jail in Natrona Co., Wyoming for stealing 50 head of neat cattle from J.L. McCoy along with Lew Henderson. Ray jumped bail and was never heard from again but was a suspect in the Belle Fourche robbery because of this. Ray was not Harve Logan as his description does not match that of Harve! You, Sir, might have started a train wreck by you statement!

  • Butch
    May 13, 2009 3:57 p.m.

    Not Butch:

    We're talking about two different photos. Larry Pointer, so far as I know, was first to dub the Deadwood, South Dakota, photo of a Logan taken at the Locke Photography Studio the "Hobo Photo". When Bob Lee was interviewed in prison he said that the Locke Photo was a photo of Harve Logan. I don't believe the UP RR photo is generally known as the Logan "Hobo" Photo. The UP RR photo is not a photo of a single person. The Locke photo is of a single person.

    As noted, correctly, Kirby on page 35 claims that Harvey Logan was "listed" as Harve Rae. For that reason, Harvey Logan was indicted in absentia. If the Locke Photo is of Harvey Logan as Lee claims, then Harvey Logan was indicted as Thomas Jones and present in court when he heard himself indicted under his correct name in absentia.

    Harve Rae was a named suspect in the Belle Fourche Robbery because the four robbers did not wear masks, and Harve, a local to Belle Fourche and Sundance, was identified.

    Continued.........

  • Butch
    May 13, 2009 4:11 p.m.

    Frank Murray, reponding to a letter from Marshall Hadsell, said that Harve Rae and George "Flatnose" Currie had attended school together at Sundance. Hadsell wrote to the Pinkertons about Rae because Rae became a prime suspect in the Wilcox robbery after Tom Horn "questioned" witnesses. Pointer claims Rae was wounded in the Wilcox Robbers shootout that resulted in the death of Sheriff Josiah Hazen. On the run, the escaping robbers sheltered at the Muddy Creek Road Ranch where Rae died of his wounds and was buried above the cave at the Roadranch. So said Pointer.

    Never-the-less, Not Butch, you are quite right that I might have started another train wreck. I didn't specify which presumed Logan photo I was speaking about and I didn't elaborate about what Kirby said about Harve Logan "listed" as Harve Rae. I'm guilty as charged. I'll do my best to mend my ways.

    Thanks for your comment.

  • Butch
    May 13, 2009 4:21 p.m.

    Not Butch:

    I forgot to mention that Harve Rae was the cousin of Nick Rae who died at the side of Nate Champion during the Johnson County Invasion. There is an unconfirmed report floating around that both Nick and Harve are enumerated on an early census in the Ten Sleep area. Yep. I think "train wreck" is an accurate description.

  • R L
    May 13, 2009 7:26 p.m.

    Are we seeing the birth of a new, genuine foremost authority(ies)? Very interesting, informative, without putting others down. Bravo to all 99.9% of you.

    R L

  • Not Butch
    May 14, 2009 9:57 a.m.

    Butch- I had long suspected that Harve Rae was related to Nick Rae. Is there any proof of the fact they were cousins. Very little is known about either as far as I know. Nick was supposedly working for Billy Irvine and was hurt. Irvine ran him off, which was unusual back then.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 14, 2009 10:25 a.m.

    Some Observations:

    Butch Mentions that Gillespie did not name the incarcerated person in his Oct 12, 1897 letter, that is correct. However the Rawlins Journal/People's Voice article of Oct. 10, 1897 does specifically mention "Harry Alonzo" as one who was arrested as one of the Belle Fourche robbers. It also mentions that Harry Alonzo was working for Al Reader at the time of the robbery, and that he had written and requested for some friends to come and identify him. It mentions that J. Galloway and E. Lahey were the ones who went to identify him, but that the authorities did not let them make the identification as the rewards had already been paid. This is pretty clear evidence that it was "Harry Alonzo" that was arrested under the name of Frank Jones. This also confirms the Gillespie letter. As cited before, many in the Little Snake River area later said that the person they knew as Harry Alonzo was the same person as Harry Longabaugh.

  • Ghosttown Bob
    May 14, 2009 10:42 a.m.

    (continued)
    As has already been mentioned before, miss-identification of the Wild Bunch was commonplace. The Ben Kilpatrick affair in St. Louis in Nov 1901 after the Wagner train robbery is a good example. Butch Cassidy was declared dead after the gun-battle in the aftermath of the Castle Gate Robbery, A. G. Francis, mistook Harry Longabaugh (Sundance Kid) for Harvey Logan (Kid Curry) in 1908 at the time of the San Vicente shooting. These are just a few examples.

    As for the 1897 Harry Longabaugh, If Harry Alonzo and Harry Longabaugh were the same person, then Harry Longabaugh could not have been the same as William Henry Long in Fremont at the same time.

    Lastly, having read through the previous entries here, I still see no evidence, other than speculation that the Harry Longabaugh of 1887 was any different than the Harry Longabaugh of 1897. This whole SA thing in 1887 is still all very nebulous and ephemeral.

  • Butch
    May 14, 2009 11:54 a.m.

    Ghosttown Bob:

    I have no disagreement with anything you said. If you are satisfied that all of the evidence fairly examined leads to the conclusion beyond a reasonable
    doubt that there is one and only one person who is Harry Longabaugh/Harry Alonzo/Frank Jones/ Frank Scramble then by all means Bill Long can not possibly be Harry Longabaugh et al.

    That being the case, what is your opinion of William D. "Billy" Smith's behavior of allowing Harry Longabaugh to be indicted for the Belle Fourche Bank robbery under the false name of Frank Jones? I'll keep in mind that Billy Smith played a role in Joe LeFors' frame up of Tom Horn.

    Second, I'd like to have your thoughts on why Thomas and Frank Jones, along with William C. Smith were provided escape horses to allow them to make it to Dandy Crossing, while Walt Punteney and Tom O'Day were not provided horses and were caught, on foot, at Bridal Veil Falls.

    Finally, is it your reccomendation that we not make further inquiry into the Keeline or 1887 on the grounds that it would be a waste of time?

  • Butch
    May 14, 2009 12:36 p.m.

    Not Butch:

    I suppose it depends on one's definition of "proof". I did some "boots on the ground" work on the Rae boys. Here's what I have:

    1.) Rueben H. "Nick" Rae was born in 1861, Missouri, Father: "J. H. Rae"; Mother "L. B. Rae". See the 1880 Federal Census for Miami, Saline County, Missouri. Nick, of course died April 9, 1892 at KC. I haven't found him for certain on the 1870 Census. Confusion might be in the spelling of the surname "Rae" as opposed to "Ray". I got the lead Rueben H. Rae, birthplace Missouri, from an old-timer at Gillette. Both leads --name and birthplace -- coincide with the Wyoming Tales and Trails website, see "Johnson County War/Invasion".

    2.) Harvey G. Rae, born 1858, Missouri, Father: Matthias Rae; Mother: Sarah Rae. I worked backward from Pinkerton Assistant Superintendant Frank Murray's letter to U. S. Marshall Frank Hadsell, dated June 7, 1900. There is a fair amount of discussion regarding the Horn letter to Fraser of January 15, 1900. Because of the Horn letter, Murray and Hadsell met at Cheyenne on June, 6, 1900.

    Continued............

  • Butch
    May 14, 2009 1:16 p.m.

    As soon as Murray got back to his Denver office he wrote to Hadsell and, in part, said: "There is a Harve Ray (sic), who would now be a man about 30. He went to school with George Curry (sic)and was raised at Sundance." Hadsell, of course, knew that Currie, a Canadian, landed first in Nebraska and didn't show up in Wyoming until sometime in 1887-1890, well past school age. Working from the Reward poster for Belle Fourche giving "Harve Ray"'s age as 42, I came up with Harvey G. Rae, born 1858 in Missouri. The 1870 Federal Census lists Harvey Ray at Flat Creek, Pettis County, Missouri. Pettis county neighbors Saline County.

    Finally, I would direct you to Tom Horn's letter of January 15, 1900 to E. C. Harris. Both the Murray and Horn letters are in the Frank Hadsell files on microfiche at the Wyoming Cultural Resources Center in Cheyenne.

    If you have a copy of Pointer just follow the index, paying particular attention to the Wilcox escape route.

    I can't think of anything else right at the moment. If I do, I'll let you know right away.

  • Anonymous
    May 14, 2009 1:31 p.m.

    neb⋅u⋅lous

    1. hazy, vague, indistinct, or confused: a nebulous recollection of the meeting; a nebulous distinction between pride and conceit.
    2. cloudy or cloudlike.
    3. of or resembling a nebula or nebulae; nebular.


    ephemeral

    1 : lasting one day only 2 : lasting a very short time


  • Butch
    May 14, 2009 2:02 p.m.

    R. L.:

    I'm not sure if you intended to include me in the other 99.9 Foremost Authorities, but if you did, well, I'm afraid I'll have to decline. I really don't want the mantle of Foremost Authority draped on me. Foremost Authorities have gravitas and with the title and gravitas people expect Foremost Authorities to be right.

    If a Foremost Authority is wrong about something he is expected to defend his error to the death because Foremost Authorities are always right and never wrong. Defending the indefensible puts a lot of stress on a guy, and quite frankly, I don't believe I could handle the pressure of being a Foremost Authority.

    My goal is to perform as well as a stopped clock, which, of course, is right twice a day. When I have an unusually good day I'm right once that day. I never count the number of times I am wrong each day because I don't want to become depressed.

    On the other hand, if you have the position of Foremost Authority on Lutefisk, and Lefsa with Lingonberries, then, sir, we really need to discuss the matter further.

  • Anonymous
    May 14, 2009 2:11 p.m.

    1. hazy, vague, indistinct, or confused: a nebulous recollection of the meeting; a nebulous distinction between pride and conceit.
    2. cloudy or cloudlike.

    How did we get from Bill and Harry to Nancy Pelosi?

  • Dora du Fran
    May 14, 2009 2:20 p.m.

    Kid Montana:

    I think we should all follow Mark Lane's admonition to not "Rush To Judgment".

    I also think we should lock Butch and Jerry in the back room of the Slick Rock and not let them out until they come up with the solution.

  • Not Butch
    May 14, 2009 2:28 p.m.

    Butch- Thanks for the information and while not "beyond a reasonable doubt" it still makes a lot of sense. We rarely get "BARD" do we? Concerning the Horn letter to Harris. There are a lot of old timers in Johnson Co. who disbelieve this. They will tell you that Speck and Horn were freindly. Horn certainly gets the location of Currie incorrect after Wilcox. I seriously doubt that Harvey Rae (Ray) was involved in the Wilcox robbery and he certainly was not one of the three that came north. There is also good evidence that the three did not go to Billy Hill's place on Red Fork to get remounted but in fact were remounted at John Nolen's in Kaycee, Wyoming.

  • Jerry Nickle
    May 14, 2009 4:11 p.m.

    We have just read some very compelling evidence that Alonzo was not one of the men in the Deadwood Jail. And what is the explanation for Billy Smith not recognizing the prisoner if he was Alonzo? The two men that went to Deadwood could not identify the prisoner because there were not given the chance. Just because they were not given the opportunity does not mean the prisoner was defiantly Alonzo
    Here is another possibly; It takes 266 days from conception to birth. This means Luzernia became pregnant June 20, 1897 one week before Harry Alonzo was in Slater. Gillespie did not say exactly where he was on the 20. He could have been in Fremont and be considered an employee of Reader that just took some time off.

  • Butch
    May 14, 2009 6:01 p.m.

    Jerry:

    You were sailing along fine up to the 266 days for conception thing. Remember, Harry is a bronc stomper so he's real busy with the ramuda after spring round-up. No, Harry was with Reader from January through August 1, 1897. Which ever Harry it was didn't leave for a week or two of slap and tickle with Luzernia. That job belonged to Bill Long, an entirely different person than the Reader employed Harry.

    So, send the Hollywoods on your payroll off to finish the comedy film. You need to get busy on your book. The book requires notes. Go to Page 13, third full paragraph, second sentence of the John F. Gooldy "Early Day History" document. Got it? That's your argument. That is the note for your argument. Now add Governor Wells letter and the Jones Brothers language. Bill can't be in two places at once. Neither can Harry.

    I read Marilyn's blog of Feb 19. If you "solved" the mystery it must have been the same way Oliver Stone "solved" the JFK assassination. You'll never get away with that kind of thing in print.

  • Butch
    May 14, 2009 6:26 p.m.

    Jerry:

    Punch up the "two" who went to help Frank Jones/Harry Longabaugh figure argument. Why did they rescue Thomas Jones, Frank Jones, and William C. Moore, and not help Tom O'Day and Walt Punteney? There is a very good reason and you should give it.

    Finally, I believe you ought to address the Rawlins/Peoples Voice article head on.

    No, don't look at your "Creative Executive Producer". Who ever heard of a "Creative Executive Producer" involved in a cold history case? Jerry, you don't create history --you uncover it and discover it by investigating it. "Creative Executive Producer"? What were you thinking of?

  • Butch
    May 15, 2009 9:52 a.m.

    Jerry:

    On May 15, 1901, Pinkertons issued Reward Circular Number 1 for the Winnemucca Bank robbery. The Cicular says:" On June 28, 1897, under the name of Frank Jones, Longbaugh (sic) participated with Harvey Logan, alias Curry, and Tom O'Day and Walter Putney (sic) in the Belle Fourche (S. Dak.) bank robbery. All were arrested, but Longbaugh (sic) and Harvey Logan escaped from jail at Deadwood, October 31, 1897."

    On February 3, 1902, Pinkerton Reward Circular Number 2 was issued and used the exact same language as quoted above regarding the Belle Fourche robbery.

    On November 14, 1904, Pinkerton Reward Circular Number 3 was issued and contained the exact language relative to Belle Fourche as Circulars 1 & 2.

    Between 1901 and 1904 Pinkerton Detectives were all over the Little Snake and were well aware of the Gillespie letter contention that Harry Longabaugh was at the Reader ranch at the time of the robbery. If we believe the "experts" David Gillespie was the source of the DeYong photograph.

    Isn't this awfully good evidence that Harry Longabaugh/Longbaugh/Jones/Roberts/et al was different people at different times and different places? Was Bill Long one of them?

  • Jerry Nickle
    May 15, 2009 10:57 a.m.


    Page 13 of Gooldys manuscript does not say when he arrived in the Valley just when he left. He worked for other people besides Reader that winter and spring. That winter he and Burt Charter went to the mouth of the Big Hole tending the stockmans horses. That season he worked for William Crawford and may have worked for the Wrens as well so Gillespie was wrong when he said he had worked for Reader up until the middle of July. He may have left the Valley periodically. He and Burt Charter definitely left the valley and went to the mouth of the Big Hole. He and Charter may have gone to Fort Duchesne where Charters uncle was Quarter Master. Fort Duchesne is just up the road from Fremont. When did he leave one employer and sign with another one? Did he go to Fremont between employers? No one can answer these questions.
    cont...

  • Jerry Nickle
    May 15, 2009 10:59 a.m.

    This was the last season he ever worked in the Valley or as a bronc buster. Did he break his nose here (which caused the Catarrh) and return home to Fremont to recuperate and then return for a visit from June 27 through Aug 1? When you are sick and take sick leave are you still considered an employee of the same person?
    Please dont read things into these manuscripts that are not there and ignore evidence that weakens your argument. Dan Buck did this with the Mrs. Taylor Pinkerton memo and it disappoints me to see you do the same thing
    The Hollywoods and I are having a lot fun, and pains me to think you are not with us. Remember I invited you to join us.

  • Butch
    May 15, 2009 1:12 p.m.

    Jerry,

    Fair enough. However, you have to distinguish between the documents under discussion. If, as I thought, we were discussing the October 12, 1897, Gillespie letter than what I wrote is valid as applied to the case -- pro