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Comments about ‘Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?’

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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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Ghosttown Bob

You sure seem to know a lot about what Dan Buck is thinking. The crux of your statement is that the articles should be used as "proof" that Longabaugh was still alive in 1910. There is nothing in any of the versions that would indicate that. The articles in question are excellent source documents. "Recently wrote" was an editors comment in the Telegram article and seems to be at odds with the Buenos Aries version, which is also at odds with the Anaconda comments. Besides, who knows how long the "friend" took to transmit the said story to the Anaconda Standard after his return? One day? one Month, One year? etc.

Driftwood

GTB
The point that you seem to be missing is; Would Dan Buck have given the same courtesy to Jerry Nickle as he did Mike Bell, if Nickle would have first discovered that article first? Would Buck have ridiculed Nickle if Nickle had the same analysis as Bell did? You will recall that Ernst stated that article was authentic and Mr. Buck never said a pep. Would he have remained silent if Nickle claimed it was authentic?

The Artful Codger

Driftwood,

If Jerry Nickle had written an article about the Buenos Aires Standard story, it would have been judged on its merits. But he didn't. "Poor little me" arguments about hypothetical scenarios don't carry a lot of water.

Cut to the chase: Jerry Nickle's idea that William Henry Long was the Sundance Kid is an absurdity. Equally absurd are the ideas of other votaries that Hiram BeBee was the Sundance Kid, William T. Phillips was Butch Cassidy, Ann Bassett was Ethel Place, Etta Buchtel was Ethel Place, Frank Dalton was Jesse James, and Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid.

Who Was That Guy

Can Anyone tell me who Flatnose George Carver was, also known as the colonel? I can’t find any record of him, nor the posse having killed a George Carver. In fact I can’t find any mention of any of the Winnemucca bank robbers being killed by a posse or otherwise.

The Artful Codger

WWTG,
You might be confusing Will Carver and Flat Nose George Currie. Take a look at BUTCH CASSIDY, Richard Patterson; THE SUNDANCE KID, Donna Ernst; THE TALL TEXAN, Arthur Soule; or THE DEADLIEST OUTLAWS, Jeff Burton.

Burton's book has a wealth of anecdotes about the confusing identities of outlaws because of faulty eyewitnesses, reward seekers, bragging lawmen, imaginative journalists, migrating aliases, simultaneous sightings, resurrections, and all the other disorders that bedevil researchers.

WWTG

The Artful Codger

Flatnose George Carver, called the colonel, rode with Cassidy and Longabaugh when they robbed the Winnemucca bank. He was killed during the escape.

Anonymous

“Flat Nose” George Currie
Name: George Currie
Aliases: “Flat Nose” George Currie, John Hunter
Occupation: Outlaw
Date of Birth: 1864
Location of Birth: Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, Canada
Occupation: Outlaw
Spouse: Unknown
Affiliations: The Wild Bunch
Date of Death: April 17, 1900
Cause of Death: Shot by Sheriff Jessie M. Tyler
Location of Death: Price, Utah

William Richard Carver
Name: William Richard Carver
Aliases: Will Carver, Will Casey, G.W. Franks
Date of Birth: September 12, 1868
Location of Birth: Wilson County, Texas
Occupation: Outlaw
Spouse: Viana Byler (Spouse), Callie May “Lillie” Hunt (Spouse)
Affiliations: The Wild Bunch
Date of Death: April 2, 1901
Cause of Death: Gunshot wounds
Location of Death: Sonora, Texas

WWTG

Thanks
If “Flat Nose” George Currie was killed in 1900, and Will Carver in 1901, who was this Flatnose George Carver? In the article Harry Lonbuagh says “The posse had got him.”
Like I said, there’s no mention of the posse killing any of the Winnemucca bank robbers.

Anonymous


“The recent discovery of a 1912 BA Standard article strongly suggests that the robbery was the work of Wild Bunch, and has also led to other new findings on the history of this notorious gang.” “Shed new light on an old controversy.”

Hog Wash!! The 1912 BA Standard article was nothing more than a rewritten version of the fictitious Anaconda Standard article, written by a Harry Lonbauch.

C. E. Winston

Anonymous I agree
In the 1887 letter to the editor of the Daily Yellowstone Journal, he spelled his name Harry Longabaugh. In the 1887 Sundance Gazette article, his name was spelled Harry Longabaugh. The Pinkerton detective agency dropped the A and spelled his name Harry Longbaugh, the newspapers either through typo errors or sloppy reporting spelled his name Longbaugh/Lonbaugh/Lonbauch. Are we to believe Harry Longabaugh, Kid Longabaugh The Sundnace Kid would have spelled his name Harry Lonbauch/Longbaugh/Lonbaugh. It’s obvious that the individual who penned the Standard article did not know the correct spelling of Longabaugh. The article is a fictitious account of the Winnemucca Bank robbery, the entire article is riddled with fabricated and provable inaccuracies. The only reason the Buenos Aires Standard article was declared authentic, and a source document was because it was published in Buenos Aires. It’s about time Mike Bell told us how the article led to other new findings on the history of this notorious gang.

The Artful Codger

In Mike Bell's article, "Winnemucca Revisited," WOLA Journal, vol. IX, no. 1, Spring 2000, he discusses at great length -- several thousand words -- the inaccuracies and accuracies contained in the 1912 Buenos Aires Standard article. He concludes that in spite of the story's many inaccuracies and however it came to be published in the BAS, it was based upon some communication from or conversation with Sundance.

The fact that there was an earlier article in the Anaconda Standard in 1910 (and perhaps even earlier versions that have yet to be discovered) doesn't change anything, except to show how articles got borrowed, copied, and rewritten. Yes, rewritten. Rewriting included tarting up. A common newspaper practice of the era.

As for Longabaugh's name being misspelled, typographical errors were extremely common in the era of telegraphed copy, handset type, etc. Typos persist to this day. Winston rendered Sundance's name as "Sundnace."

Long and short, before you get your knickers in a twist, read Bell's article.

Anonymous

Give me a break, name one event in the Lonbauch account of the Winnemucca bank robbery and escape, that wasn’t either published, known or rumored by the general public, within six months of the robbery. In October 1900, Longabaugh told the boys at Slater, that he and Cassidy had robbed the bank, told of the dropping of the money bag, how he stopped to retrieve the bag, and exchanged shots with the posse. It was well known in the Little Snake river valley, that Longabaugh and Cassidy with others, robbed the Winnemucca bank. It was also known to many that Will Carver was the third member. The Three Creeks episode at Jim Duncan’s store was also a well known event. After the initial chase with the switch engine, the posse never got close enough to the bank robbers to exchange looks, let alone shots. Of course, if you insist the letter is authentic, we must consider the possibility that Longabaugh was alive and well in 1910.

Ghosttown Bob

Longabaugh, Longbaugh, Lonbauch, Lonbauh, The name could have been spelled a dozen different ways. The use of standardized spellings is a fairly new phenomenon. The government census indexers of the 1930s developed what they called a soundex system for names found on the census so that names that sounded alike could be indexed together. Differences in in spelling the same name should never be taken into consideration. Anonymous read Mike Bell's article, then study all three versions thoroughly before making simplistic arguments.

Mrs. Rumel

I am simply adding to the mix that I represent Joseph Rumel and his wife Esther Morgan. Esther's daughter Rosa married Matt Warner and her daughter Sarah blew the whistle on Tom McCarty and Matt. For several years I have been compiling a chronology of events and activities involving these families.

Anonymous

Mrs. Rumel
If you think you’ve known a fake in the past, you’d be well served to find out who The Artful Codger, The Sundance Kids, and Back from the Grave, is.

C. E. Winston

GTB
Name one thing that would convince me that any of the Winnemucca bank robbey and escape events, described in the Anaconda Standard or the 1912 Buenos Aires Standard article led to other new findings on the history of this notorious gang?
Talk about simplistic arguments, you say, “who knows how long the "friend" took to transmit the said story to the Anaconda Standard after his return? One day? one Month, One year? etc.” Why not twenty one months, maybe three and a half years?

Ghosttown Bob

Winston, you miss the whole point of the AS,BAS stories. It is not about the details of the Winnemucca robbery that interests historians. There really isn't anything new there. The interest is in a. possible authors, who wrote the story in the first place? did SK really recount this to someone else,who then wrote it all down down? or did someone just come up with it themselves?
b. how did it get into the hands of both the AS and BAS? Did BAS just lift it from the AS, was the AS the first paper to carry this? Who brought to the attention of the AS?
c. what does this tell us about BC & SK during the period of 1906-1912?

Anonymous

GTB - thank God someone has got the point! SDK

Kid Charter

Since I’m the one who found the Anaconda Standard Article, I find the debate your having about the Anaconda and Buenos Aires articles interesting. When I found the Anaconda article, I did not believe that it contained anything of historical value that could be used as a research tool and lead to new findings on the history of this notorious gang of bandits.I could write for publication an explanation as to why I concluded the article unworthy and withheld making in public for over a year. Although It’s doubtful, WOLA would publish my belief the article was unworthy of even being considered as a creditable account of the Winnemucca bank robbery and escape. I’ll pass on the WOLA idea, and let you boys continue your debate.

Kid Charter

GTB
Bob, I’m a little surprised at some of your comments, of all the bloggers I thought you would be the one to pick apart the articles and point out all of the flaws in the authors account of the Winnemuuca bank robbery and escape. As you said, there are more articles on the subject yet to be found. I congratulate you on the Salt Lake Telegram find. I tend to believe the Anaconda article was the original. Question, when or where did Ernst state that the Buenos Aires article was authentic?

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