Comments about ‘Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?’

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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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Tartan cowboy

I'd also like to see that photo to compare with phillips.
Hope the scots were hospitipal to you on your sojourn?Which parts of Scotland did you see?


GUE and TCB:

The only photo of William J. C. Moore that I know of occurs following page 48 in "Siringo" by Ben E. Pingenot. Please remember I am not a computer person and am not up to speed on what is avilable on-line. You both are much more qualified than I am to search the net. Web? Web net? Whatever.

The photo comparison is one thing, however, as we have seen, photo comparison is a very tricky business and usually not dispositive of anything. I think I see a definate similarity between the two photos. I think the left eye is definative. What if the photos are of the same person? More to the point, is it possible they are of the same person? To answer that question you would have to carefully research both Bill Phillips and Outlaw Bill and you're going to have to compare their physical descriptions right down to height, weight, eye and hair color, complexion, and scars, marks, blemishes --and the left eye anomalie. Best you become a master of Larry Pointer, carefully read Bandit Invincible (now that is on line)and the four Charlie Siringo books you can get.

Continued ......


You needn't worry about Siringo's 5th Book. The only copy of that you can get your hands on for under 50K is the only document in Charlie Siringo's personell file in the Pinkerton documents at LOC.

After you've done the research on the two men as I've suggested, I expect that you'll arrive at a point where you can't rule out Phillips being Moore and you can't prove he is.

Welcome to the world of the Bunchers.

Now, if you have a command of the subject matter and if you remember the exchange I had with Mr Buck about Wyoming, 1887 and Charlie Siringo at the Keeline ranch you will recall that Tom Nichols/Hall received a letter from a Texas killer in cahoots with Dentist George Newberry in Argentina. And if you follow Siringo's trail you will find Outlaw Bill on the Chilicoot trail in Alaska, 1896. And if your're very persistent on the trail you will run across Pinkerton Informant #85 in California in 1910. Now if you haven't run out of gas, proceed to mastering the criminal history of Jim and Charley Ferguson.

Continued ......

Horse Creek Cowboy

Tartan Cowboy:

Everyone in the UK is friendly. Saw: Spean Bridge and the monument to the Commandos, Ring of Brodgar and other rings in Orkney (reminded me of the Medicine Wheel west of Dayton, Wyoming), Skara Brae, Cawdor, Clava, Culloden, the Great Glen, and the Royal Mile.

Re Letter from George Newbery. Would be similar to a letter written by John C. Perry's wife back to Ozona indicating that some Americans had moved to Cholila and that her husband recognized them as Texas outlaws.

George Newbery, the dentist, was the uncle of Jorge Alejandro Newbery the balloonist and aviator. George and Ralph Newbery (Jorge's father) were the sons of a Long Island, New York, dentist who moved to Buenos Aires. Both George and Ralph as well as another brother Rudolfo were dentists. George and Ralph had a ranch some 100+ kilometers north of Cholila. Eduardo Newbery mysteriously disappeared. Jorge (the aviator) attended Cornell and graduated from Drexel.



Thanks so much for responding. I've become a real student of Ms Meadows "Digging" and whatever I can get my hands on of Mr. Buck and Ms Meadows articles and letters to the editors. I have the idea that every possible scrap of information we can get about the activities of Butch, Harry, and Ethel in SA is extraodinarily useful. In a sense they are like Pointer in that you can disagree with the conclusion of the work, but no fair minded person can fault the research or the quality and quantity of it. My thirst for more detail is a compliment to them for they have whetted my appetite for more. Thanks for helping to slake my thirst.

If "no good deed goes unpunished" is a natural law, you might expect that I have more questions of you.
The translation of Gavriati's book that I have makes reference to an 1887 "recruiting trip" to Texas for cowboys for the Newberry Ranch. (By George? Ranch at Rio Negro?) Any additional facts or detail you are of a mind to provide would be most appreciated. Thanks again.

Tartan Cowboy

Sound like you saw some interesting places over here.
Like GUE,i get lost sometimes trying to keep up.Exactly how many robberies did BC/Sk pull off?
And what about Wilcox,How many actually took part
Seems to be some confusion over this?

Contacting Eamonn O'Neill

Hello Everyone - Greetings from the other side of the Atlantic. I have been inundated with people wanting to contact we regarding the work I did for my book a decade a go on Butch and Sundance. I have lost count of the people who've written, called and emailed me. Best way to grab me is via www.eamonnoneill.net. I promise to do my best to answer everyone as soon as I can! Some great posts here by the way. A few way off-base. But lot's on the mark. Some strange stuff has come my way down the years. I firmly believe lots is still to be uncovered. A mother-load still exists out there. Anway, happy travels and you know where to reach me guys. Best wishes, Eamonn O'Neill. www.eamonnoneill.net

Kid Charter


Marshall Joe LeFors claimed that he tracked the Tipton train robbers to Delany springs, LaFors claimed he found money wrappers on the escape route at Little Snake River, and LeFors claimed his posse reached the Snake River, near the Colorado border and were in visual range of three men with horses, climbing the slope on the other side of the river.

Yet in an interview less than three weeks after the train robbery, in his statements to the reporter, about the pursuit of the train robbers, Joe LeFlors’s account of the pursuit is nearly identical to the statements made to the newspapers, by Marshall Hadsell, Marshall Payne, and Sheriff McDaniel when they returned to Rawlins.


Kid Charter

Interview with Joe LeFors, Tipton Train Robbery: September 18, 1900

He says in the interview, “After they (the train robbers) got through they mounted their horses and rode out seven miles where they stopped and cooked a meal.” (Delaney springs). “They could ride at night, traveling by compass, but we could only follow during daylight. Then there came a heavy rain storm and the sand just melted together and obliterated their tracks and it was simply impossible to follow them.” LeFors makes no mention of finding money wrappers, nor does he say he spotted three men on a ridge. To my knowledge, none of the deputies of any posse tracking the Tipton train robbers ever made a statement, supporting Leflors claims, nor did any of them make a similar statement.
Perhaps, someone out there would be kind enough to address the discrepancies in what Joe Lefors told the reporter, on September 18, 1900, and the statements supposedly attributed to Marshall Joe Lefors later.


Kid Charter,

I've never come across those discrepancies before, but very fascinating. I wonder if the reporter was taking liberties with LeFors' account. Having recently read each of the contemporary newspaper accounts on the M/A/Z/E site, I'm getting a clearer picture of how "facts" change, even at the time.

Do you ever get people emailing accounts about relatives who saw Butch Cassidy after his return to the U.S.?

just wondering

Does anyone know who Cail, Judy, and Henrie or Cail, and Judy Henerie might be in relation to or traveling with Sunance Kid. Possibly in the Panguitch area around 1927, if thats even possible. If so I have a interesting photo.

Just Wondering

Wyoming Native

GUE- Concerning your Aug 1 comment about Joe LeFors. If anyone was taking liberties in this instance it was Joe LeFors. His autobiography is pretty self serving. I have been told that if you want to read an accurate story on a person read a biography not an autobiography!



Wyoming Native,

That's interesting. I sometimes wonder about Siringo's accounts as well; I know it would've taken a lot of bravery/etc. to pursue people like Harvey Logan, but he's never afraid to talk about it. LeFors' autobiography is pretty tough to get a hold of (expensive too).

Wyoming Native


Get a copy of Chip Carlson's "I Slickered Tom Horn" which I think is still in print and much less expensive. It has about all one would want concerning Joe. Siringo was about of the same stripe but at least he saw the light after quitting the Pinks! Don't believe everything you read about either one of them though!



Kid Charter, I am directly related to the Charters you are speaking of .. just wanting to know if you are as well.. My sister along with others in the family have a vast amount of infor. if you are intrested.

Kjd Charter

Depending on which Charter you are speaking of, I’m either a Grandnephew or Grandson.


Kid | 7:51 a.m. April 7, 2009
May 26, 1908.
You might be interested in knowing that Butch Cassidys partner, alias Johnson, is back here on Snake River

Who was alias Johnson?

P. N. D. A. Denver Agency.
Name Wm H. McGinnis alias Ealz A. Lay alias Johnson.

Wyoming Native

Elzy might have been alias Johnson but his correct name was William Elzworth Lay and his nick name was spelled Elzy! Just thought you might like to know.



William Ellsworth Lay alias William H. McGinnis. I know how his name is spelled, evidently the Pinkerton’s didn’t.
M/A/Z/E Butch and Sundance - Elzy Lay PDNA Description.

Kid Charter

June 6, 1908.
Mr. Jas McParland,
Denver, Colo.
Dear Sir:-
You might be interested in knowing that “Butch” Cassidy’s partner, alias Johnson, is back here on Snake River. He has been at Baggs for about six days staying with Bert Charters. There is another stranger who seems to be a friend of his, a very large light complected man, also here. I am writing this information for what it might be worth to you.
Truly yours, C. E. Ayer. May 26, 1908.

Newspaper Name: Carbon County Journal City: Rawlins Year: 1909 Month: 04-April Day: 24 Page: 02
Miss Calvert Becomes a Bride. W. H. McGinnis and Miss Mary Calvert of Baggs were married at Hahns Peak a couple of weeks ago, the announcement being received through papers from that section.
The bride is a daughter of L. Calvert the Baggs merchant, and has a large circle of friends on the river. Mr. McGinnis was formerly a resident of Baggs.

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