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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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Driftwood

HCC
Marcelo Gavirati’s book includes all of the Argintina sources. On page 15 it states they got to the Terretory 1902. Why would they purchase livestock in 1901 if they were not to the territory until 1902?

Drifwood

HCC
The Pinkerton memo that states Sundance was at the Buffalo Hospital the summer of 1901 is a Philadelphia Memo. Are the Philadelphia memos reliable?

Driftwood


HCC
The application for land was in 1902. Except for the unsubstantiated Gaririti documents are there any American documents that show Butch went to Argentina in 1901? Are there any American documents that show Sundance stayed in Buenos Aires longer than making the Bank deposit in 1901?

Driftwood

HCC
What name did Butch use when he purchased the Tiffany watch for Etta? Was it Bob Parker, Jack Ryan or Butch Cassidy?

Driftwood

The Tiffany Co. charges five hundred dollars for a search of their records. They sold many watches in 1901 but they do not have record of Butch purchasing any watch. The records do not mention Butch Cassidy, Robert Parker or James Ryan. Making the clam that one of the watches was purchased by Butch Cassidy is opinion not documented fact.

Horse Creek Cowboy

Re: Names used for purchase of Tiffany Watch.

In March, Dan Buck wrote “In 1992, Tiffany & Co. informed me that their records indicate that on February 4, 1901, James Ryan, living at 234 East 12th Street, bought a watch, serial number 68210/1685, for $40.10. Also, Tiffany informed a colleague that on June 25, 1902, H.A. Place, no address given, bought a watch, serial number 2590-1128643, for $15.35.

”The dates of those purchases, by the way, coincide with what we know from other sources, e.g., Pinkerton and Argentine archives, about BC and SK's movements.”

Tartan Cowboy:

The "Holes" of Northern Colorado, Western Wyoming, and Mogollon Country of Western New Mexico were indeed desolate and isolated making Scotland seem in comparisom almost as crowded modern-day England. The distances are large, from Brown's Hole to Alma is almost the distance from South Hampton to John O'Groats, a distance I recently drove, but few towns, and making John O'Groats almost seem like a
metropolis.

My take: Sundance and Butch died in South America.
Whether at San Vicente or elsewhere is the question, but we all love mysteries. Solved mysteries are less interesting.


GUE

A quick question. Does anyone know how long did the statute of limitations lasted on crimes at this time? If the last alleged crime for Butch Cassidy on American soil was at Wagner, Montana in 1901, when would he have been no longer a wanted man? Did the different states have different statutes?

Any information greatly appreciated.

Butch

GUE:

The applicable SOL depends on where you commit the crime and what kind of crime you commit. However, that said, never commit a crime --misdemeanor, gross misdemeanor, or felony -- in Wyoming. Dating from the days of Territorial status right up to the present time, there is no SOL in Wyoming for anything. One pan fish over the limit and those Wyoming cowboys can track you, arrest you, convict you and incarcerate you 100 years or more after you gut and gilled the fish.

Fortunately for Butch and Harry, the last crime they were wanted for was the Winnemucca Bank job -- not Wagner. Nevada is a lot more "civilized" than Wy and, at the time had a 6 year SOL for felonies like robbing a bank. So what would you expect from a state that is home to both the Bunny Ranch and Harry Reed?

Yep, Butch and Harry were free to show up in 1908, walk around Rawlins and Litle Snake and tip their Stetsons to Frank Hadsell. No problem. The SOL had tolled.

Anonymous

In the “The Gunfighters” of the Time/life series on page 93 is large photo of Sundance and Etta. There IS NOT a Buffalo stamp. This book was published in 1977. I suspect someone has done some computer handiwork and added the Buffalo stamp with this latest discovered photo.

Just a Comment

Butch- Evidently you are not aware that the authorities were quite certain that Harry Longabaugh was one of the Wilcox train robbers and that Butch Cassidy was also suspected of participation in both this robbery and the robbery of the UP at Tipton over a year later. These offenses occurred in Wyoming, therefore no SOL would have applied.

Butch

Just A Comment:

1.) On May 15, 1901 Pinkertons issued Reward Circular No 1 for Butch and Harry. In that reward circular:

Harry Longabaugh was wanted for Winnemucca, the 1892 Malta, Montana, robbery of the Great Northern with Bill Madden and Harry Bass, the Belle Fourche bank job, and breaking jail at Deadwood. The reward circular detailed his incarceration at Sundance. There was no want for Harry for Wilcox or Tipton, and by May 15, 1901 the Pinkertons, the UP, and Marshall Hadsel had determined Longabaugh had not taken part. That never changed. Ever.

Butch was wanted for Winnemucca. His criminal history was given as incarceration at Laramie between July 15, 1894 and January 19, 1896. There was no want for Butch for either Wilcox or Tipton. As in the case of Longabaugh,the Pinkertons, the UP, and Marshall Hadsel had determined that Butch wasn't involved in either train robbery.

2.) On January 24, 1902, Reward Circular No. 2 was issued and detailed the identical wants and history as Reward Circular No. 1. Neither was wanted for Wilcox, Tipton, --or Wagner for that matter.

Continued .....

Butch

3.) On November 14, 1904, Reward Circular No. 3 was issued and gave the same information and the same wants for both Butch and Harry as Circulars 1 and 2. There was no want for Wilcox, Tipton, or Wagner.

4.) An undated cicular was issued in SA in 1903. That circular was identical in criminal history and wants as Reward Circulars 1, 2, and 3.

So where did the idea that Butch and Harry were wanted for Wilcox, Tipton, or Wagner come from? Why it came from the "experts" of course, chiefly Kirby, Ernst, and Kelly. Precious little that these three story tellers have to say ever bears up on close examination of the base documents.

No, what I blogged is absolutely accurate. In 1908 Butch and Harry could walk the streets of Rawlins or Baggs, Dixon, Savery, or Slater without fear. The SOL on Winnemucca had tolled (as had Montana's for Malta and Wagner) and neither man was wanted for Tipton or Wilcox. You can read the frustration in the correspondence between Hadsell, Pinkertons, and various express companies. It isn't pretty --but I think its wonderfully amusing.

Butch

Anonymous:

I'm right with you on the Bliss/Buffalo photo. I'd sure like more discussion of it. As far as "photo shopping" the Bliss logo onto the frame, of that I'm not so sure. The Bliss/Buffalo version referred to so far is from a scan from the Library of Congress, which, in my opinion, argues against "photo shopping" manipulation.

I don't know if this is any help, but the two documents scanned right after the Bliss/Buffalo photo were pages 1 and 2 of the SA circular using issolations from the photo for Harry and alias Ethel Place. The three scans are sandwiched between extraneous documents not from the Pinkerton files.

Again, I don't know if this helps but William decreed that the "DeYong" (Bliss/Buffalo?) photo not be put in the Pinkerton Gallery, but placed in Longabaugh's Criminal History. Because alias Ethel Place wasn't wanted for a crime? Harboring a fugative?

Its a real bang your head against a brick wall mystery, ain't it? Let's hope some of our fellow contributors to the blog can help us out.

Horse Creek Cowboy

Re: "walking streets" and Statutes of Limitation.

In 1902 the Protective Committee of the American Bankers Association reported that Parker and Longabaugh had been indicted for the Winnemucca Bank robbery. The indictment stopped the running of any statute of limitations and both Parker and Longabaugh would have been subject to arrest and extradition to Nevada. Also, there is no statute of limitations for murder. Sheriff Hazen was murdered in Wyoming. All who participated would have been subject to being indicted for his homicide.

Driftwood

Did Sundance return from Argentina after he made the March 23, 1901 bank deposit? This newspaper article of the time confirms he did.

Anaconda Standard.
July 14,1901

“How the train was robbed near Wagner” (July 3, 1901)

……. Longabaugh has been a friend of the Curry family……… In recent weeks he appeared in Malta and has not tried very hard to escape recognition.

Butch

HCC:

1.) Do you know the date, place, and Court from which the indictment of Longabauagh and Parker was issued? I agree, if such an indictment was issued the running of the SOL would be stopped. I'd like to know more about the indictment for several reasons. First, we might learn something more from looking at the indictment, and if possible, the court file from the court issuing the indictment. Second, it would be useful to know why the reward circulars don't mention the indictment. Third, it would be useful to know why the Pinkertons, on behalf of the ABA, didn't follow up on the 1908 sightings in Wyoming. I sure would appreciate any information you can supply regarding the indictment of Butch and Harry for Winnemucca.

2.) Neither Butch nor Harry needed to be accused of Hazen's murder to have a Wyoming case brought against them. Mere participation in the Wilcox or Tipton robberies would have been sufficient. I agree that murder does not have an SOL in any jurisdiction of which I am aware. In this case, that is immaterial. Wyoming doesn't have an SOL. Period.

Coninued ....

Butch

I'd also appreciate your help in trying to deal with the following isssues regarding Wilcox.

1.) Wayne Kindred makes, I think, a convincing argument that there were three and only three robbers, and not four, five, or six, as various people have contended.

2.) Kindred relies on, among other things, the May 5, 1900 interview with Bob Lee. Lee, of course, has a vested interest in maintaining that there were only three robbers, since if that were proved he would have been wrongfully convicted. Never the less, Lee's contention that Harvey Logan, Frank Scramble, and the "man who went to Utah" were the robbers is borne out by:

--Hazen and posse followed three and only three sets of tracks from the robbery point.
--Horn's "interrogation" of Speck produced the information that two of the robbers were George Flatnose Currie and Harvey Ray. A third man who was with them was not named. Lee named him: Harvey Logan.
--Currie in fact went to Utah, and was spoken to by Isom Dart, and later killed there by Sheriff Tyler.


Butch

At Lee's trial, none of the witnesses testified that they ever saw more than three robbers at any one time.

Lee's Description of "Frank Scramble" tallies exactly with that of Frank Jones/Roberts as given by Sheriff Plunkett in Deadwood.

Putting this all together what I come up with is that three and only three men robbed Wilcox: Harvey Logan, George "Flatnose" Currie, and Harvey Ray.

And that is precisely the problem I'm having because if Harvey Ray was the third robber then Ray was "Frank Scramble" and Frank Roberts/Jones. And, if Frank Roberts/Jones is Harvey Ray, then Harry Longabaugh wasn't arrested in Montana, wasn't in Deadwood, and didn't break jail on October 31, 1897.

That would be consistent with Wilson D. "Billy" Smith not identifying Frank Jones/Roberts as Longabaugh through two court proceedings. It is also consistent with Hicks and Smith returning to Montana after George Currie, the missing named defendant of the Butte County Robbery.

If Harry wasn't in jail in Deadwood, and wasn't Frank Jones/Roberts, why couldn't he have been in Loa, fathering a child under the name Bill Long?

Help!

Thanks

Horse Creek Cowboy

Re various issues:

1. The Anaconda Standard "sighting. Newspaper accounts of the time were unreliable. Practically all robberies of the time were attributed to the duo. Last spring, I gave a listing of sightings reported in various newspapers. The generally accepted theory is that Sundance and Ethel did not return to US until 1902, although there was one report from 1901 in Buffalo.
William Pinkerton in his 1903 report to ABA indicated that the duo had left the country, but he knew where they were.
2. Going on memory, it is my understanding that following the Wilcox robbery, the gang split, half northward toward the Hole in the Wall and half southward toward Colorado. The robbery was attributed to the Roberts Brothers, a name sometimes allegedly used by Butch and Sundance.
3. Venue for any indictment would have been Humboldt County. Indictment in the mane of "George Parker" and "Henry Longbaugh" The error in name would not, however, under Nevada law been fatal to the indictment. The report was in the fall of '02. My guess then is 1902.
4. Theory on Photo. It was stolen by Pinkertons out of mail to Longabaugh's family.

Butch

HCC:

Winnemucca: I think you've confused the supposed "indictments" of Butch and Harry with the various wants, warrants, and indictments for Frank Jones, Dave Jones, Charlie Craig, "Perkins" Melville Fuller, Willie Wier and Francis Silve, all of whom were arrested/detained/incarcerated --however briefly-- for the Winnemucca job. At the encouragement of the Pinkertons it is perfectly understandable that one, some, or all of these suspects were confused in the minds of the Protective Committee as being Parker and Longabaugh. However, Protective Committee confusion or not, the fact remains that Parker and Longabaugh --under any allowable variation of their respective names -- were never indicted for Winnemucca. Ever. Nope. The SOL tolled for the boys on at midnight on September 19, 1906. It was a good thought, though, and nice detail. Thanks for bringing it up. When I asked for the court issuing the indictment I was fishing for either Grand Jury or District Court.


On Wilcox: You've accurately stated the theories and supposition of our "experts" but the primary problem with all of them is that:

1.) There were not three sets of tracks going south.

Continued .......

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