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Comments about ‘Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?’

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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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tartan cowboy

Butch:
re the trips back and forth from SA was the transport that SK/ep took more luxurious than the H/N/N safety routes? if not then i whole heartedly agree that the mode of transport is highly suspicious. if not then maybe the reasons for returning are of a more personal nature.Didn't the pinkertons think that ethel had relatives in Texas?
RE the fort worth photograph.I can understand the theory of SK being coeeced into the photo for establishing red herring duty, but what of the others? we know BC image was already out there from the laramie mug shot. How did he persuade the other three to have their photo taken? where their photos already in circulation?
There was also some talk of harry being a "lunger how accurate is this?
I have contacted Jerry nickle and hope to have your And Bob's email address soon.

Anonymous

TC, an e/m was sent to you a few hours ago.

Sadly I have nothing of value to add to the Annalee Thayn comments. A few years ago I sent her information to a friend in Casper, Wyoming, who has a wealth of information on these subjects. One of his replies, I believe mentioned how the Thayn/Thayne names were very common in that area and they go back a long time. I am sure I put his comments away so I would know exactly where they were. I am afraid I may have put them with the "Utah coin" that I recall someone mentioning a little earlier. If I stumble onto them, I will gladly share.

BJ

Anonymous

Speaking of pictures, I have always been fascinated by the appearance of the foot attire worn by Sundance, Ben and Butch in the Ft. Worth picture. I am sure a younger, smarter brain has already answered this but... Sundance appears to be wearing a pair of laceup, dress shoes, that appear to be in terrible shape. Unshined and badly scuffed. Ben is wearing similiar shoes, but they look new and very shiny. Old Butch looks as though he just rode in. He has normal, very used looking, squared toe western (cowboy) boots on. Can't see the feet of Carver or Logan. Can see the "pinky" ring on Carver's left hand, and the flower in Logan's lapel. Makes me think they all did not arrive on the same bus.

BJ

Horse Creek Cowboy

Butch:

in April there was fully discussed the question of the reliability of Charlie Siringo.

You have cited the National Bureau of Identification as proof that Curry was alive and well after Parachute. The Bureau in 1910 indicated that Curry is "suppoed to be a member of a band that operated extensively in Argentina for four years." See Washinton Herald p. 12, 1910. In my search for Logan, I have gone through almost all national newspapers for the period 1903 to 1910. The Washington Herald item is the only article I could find that suggested that Logan was still alive. All other national newspapers concluded that Curry committed suicide at Parachute. If Logan was in Argentina, where does that leave your sightings? Sightings are not reliable. Dan has noted the widely reported "sighting" of Ringo Star at the Tradewinds Saloon in St. Augustine, Fl. Elvis is routinely seen.

In April, before I left for Orkney for the month, we all agreed not to be so insulting. I don't know how it is in Utah, but in Wyoming Western Hospitality does not include gratuitous insults. The constant, unrelenting, vacuous attacks upon Mr. Buck are wearisome.

Anonymous

"The constant, unrelenting, vacuous attacks upon Mr. Buck are wearisome."

Is it possible Mr. HCC, that Mr. Buck has brought your above mentioned comments upon himself by what he says to those that choose to not agree with him? There are numerous other so-called historians that do not receive comments like what you describe. Ever wonder why? Is he getting some of his own medicine?

The comments may not be as vacuous as you imply and could possibly be most fitting and well deserved.

Another opinion.

Anonymous

"I don't know how it is in Utah, but in Wyoming Western Hospitality does not include gratuitous insults." Mr. HCC says..........

As I believe Mr. Buck resides in Washington D C, maybe he should consider moving to your Wyoming, you then could teach him some courtesy.

BC

Anonymous

HCC
Mr. Buck charges those that do not agree with his analysis of certain photographs of having the vision of Mr. Magoo. Do you consider the Magoo comparison insulting?

Anonymous

Just my opinion, but it appears Mr. Buck uses Saul Alinskys Rules For Radicals. Instead of respectfully discussing the subject with those he disagrees with, he ridicules them. I for one would like to see Mr. Buck join the discussion. Surely by now he understands that no one will tolerate his insults.

Anonymous

If Charlie Siringo is unreliable why does Mr. Buck refer to Siringo as Pinkertons ace detective.

Anonymous

Darn it HCC, just when we were starting to get some enjoyment from this, you have to come along and try to dig up Dan Buck. Now we have two that we really don't have any need for, Mr. Zimmer and Mr. Buck.

If it isn't broken, don't try and fix it.

"If Charlie Siringo is unreliable why does Mr. Buck refer to Siringo as Pinkertons ace detective." Was just asked.....Probably for the same reason he refers to himself, as "The Foremost Authority".

Shall we carry on?

Butch

HCC:

The only value that the Bureau of Identification's belief that Logan survived 1904 has is that it's refusal to believe Harvey died can be added to Pinkertons. The question at issue is whether Harvey died in 1904 after the Parachute/Rifle robbery, not whether he went to SA or was or was not Gold Teeth Duffy.

This particular type of non-debate debate technique is called "deflection" and attempts to draw the jury's attention away from the issue and onto extraneous and irrelevant material. I suggest you stop trying to divert attention from the issue and take the issue head on.

Now, I've called you out on this issue, suggested that we partner up on getting a couple of sets of human remains above ground, and do a DNA two step. I don't know what you call an offer of partnership in your neck of the woods, but in mine the offer of partnership is considered a great compliment, and an acknowledgement that the partner is a person of quality and great worth. What exactly is your problem? Squemish? O. K. Don't look. I will.

Butch

Anonymous:

Since we've been challenged to be fair and respectful to Mr. Buck, would you consider refering to him by his self-proclaimed title of "Completist"? Meadows, Digging, Page 260. My spell check puts a squiggley red line under that word, but it must be legitimate since Ms Meadows got it in print as applied to Mr Buck so it simply must be a real word.

I take it that a "Compleatist" is complete in his presentation of all relevant material on any issue, and if so, then we ought to assume that Mr. Buck, the Compleatist, has either made a compleat presentation of the San Vicente issue or completely screwed it up. Which do you think the Compleatist did?

Anonymous

"I take it that a "Compleatist" is complete in his presentation of all relevant material on any issue, and if so, then we ought to assume that Mr. Buck, the Compleatist, has either made a compleat presentation of the San Vicente issue or completely screwed it up. Which do you think the Compleatist did?"

To be brief, he "did" prove he did not know what he was talking about and since his "did dug" all his efforts have been generated in trying to prove (even though he was "dead" wrong) that he was right and all remaining energy is used to show how the rest of the world is wrong. Any energies that might be left over, of course are used to scare away or insult any member of an outlaw's family. (they might show where Mr. Buck is less than accurate and truthfull)

If you can't whip em, and they won't let you join em, then the only path left is to run em down with insults.

1 of many anoniemice



Horse Creek Cowboy

Butch:

Thank you for the offer. Just one minor glitch. Have you checked with the Colorado Historic Society? Under Section 24-80-401 et seq. of the Colorado Revised Statutes, excavation will require a permit from the Society. The qualifications are set forth in Section 24-80-406. I doubt that either of us qualify. Until a permit is obtain, we are spitting into the wind.

Mr Anonymous needs to read Frothingham's "Temple of Virtue" beginning at page 138 where he writes:
"Many of us believe, with more or less ex- plicitness, in the right of meeting injury with injury, insult with insult, wrong with wrong. We claim the right of giving back as goodor, as we had better say, as bad as we receive. This is only justice, we declare." He continues with a discussion of the great thinkers of history on the subject.

An observation

"Mr Anonymous needs to read Frothingham's "Temple of Virtue" beginning at page 138 where he writes:
"Many of us believe, with more or less ex- plicitness, in the right of meeting injury with injury, insult with insult, wrong with wrong. We claim the right of giving back as goodor, as we had better say, as bad as we receive. This is only justice, we declare."

Maybe HCC, Mr. Annonymous simply believes in standing up for what is right. In today's world, we may wish we had more of his attitude.

Butch

HCC:

You're welcome. In this Wild Bunch thing, a man needs as many partners as he can get. I've got confidence that between the two of us and with the help of our pals on this blog and elsewhere, we can gin up enough interest to have CHS back our play. Several Colleges and Universities in CO have some wonderful archeology departments that should have an interest in the project. In addition to that, in these tough economic times, I expect the small Colorado towns involved could use a few extra dollars the project should generate. Why not invite CO film schools to film the dig and have the students bring the background story to life? Why not get local museum's involved? If there is enough public interest and if we can make a case that CO will benefit economically, it is better than an even money bet a CO politician will get behind our project. When that happens, the improbable becomes a done deal. In fact, I'll wager my Chrysler shares the Government just bought me that we can get this done. The same arguments ought to apply to Big Sky Country.

Horse Creek Cowboy

Butch

A good starting place then will be the Garfield County Historic Society. Perhaps KUED who produced a program on the Outlaw Trail. Gave equal time to both sides of the Butch controvery. Even Dan with his connections might be interested.

I will be out of country again for part of September, but like Butch I will return.

Butch

HCC:

That's the ticket. I think you've got great suggestions as starting points. Perhaps you can get Mr Buck interested in the project. I'll see what I can do about getting the "It isn't Harvey" argument down on paper. Of course, I feel obligated to give the argument and supporting data for my candidate in the grave. You might want to do the same on your research. We might very well generate some interest on the part of local newspapers --Deseret News?-- in serializing the debate, our respective articles, and our progress in getting the project off the ground.

Anonymous

Someone mentioned the different conditions of the footwear of the three gentlemen in the front row of the Ft. Worth picture. I also think that is interesting, with all the talent displayed here, someone should have an answer. At least an opinion.

Thank you.

A Question

Butch

Anonymous:

My opinion is that Harry's shabby footwear is consistent with his declaration to David Gillespie on or about November 1, 1900, that he was substantially broke, not having enough money to both repay the loan from Gillespie and afford a nights lodging at McIntosh's Slater complex. The Fort Worth Five photograph was taken approximately 21 days after the Slater meeting with Gillespie.

However, in the DeYoung Photograph, Harry has shined, possibly new, lace-up footwear. That is consistent with the thought that when "Ethel" is "in the picture" so to speak, Harry's life style takes a decided turn upward. The DeYoung photograph was taken between February 1 and February 19, 1901.


My opinion, of course, is by no means "proof" of anything. I submit, however, my opinion is consistent with what we know, or think we know, about Harry's changing fortunes, and his willingness to be photographed after his October, 1897, refusal to be photographed.

Good question, thanks for asking it. We might get different opinions from others. Like you, I'm very interested in the topic.

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