Comments about ‘Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?’

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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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Horse Creek Cowboy

Re: Logan

The body was buried under the name J. H. Ross. Ross, however, was found alive and well. The body was also identified, in addition to Tap Duncan, as George W. Kendricks. After about a week, the body was placed in a cheap wooden casket, photos were taken from several different angles and body was positively identified by Denver Superinendent James McParland as Logan. That did not please William Pinkerton. Lowell Spence was sent to Colorado and the body was dug up on July 16. Present: Denver & Rio Grande agent R. Brunazi, Deputies Mohn and Crissman, Drs. Clark and McAllister. Spence identified the body as Logan. Railroad reps demurred.

From the photos, the Knoxville sheriff's office confirmed Logan. Arguments: If body that of Logan large awards were due. If not Logan, the railroads would not have to pay. William Pinkerton certainly know on what side his bread was buttered. Not withstanding Pinkerton's speculation, no reason for Knoxville people, McParland, or Spence to lie, no award for them. Body was allegedly too far decomposed to see if scars from Lavina or the bordello robbery were present. Scars are apparently in the eyes of the beholder.

tartan cowboy

anonymous:
Apoligies if my response to you sounded if it was written with a sense of sarcasm this was not my intention.I am very pleased and thankful to more knowledgeable folk like yourself and Butch to share your research with the uninitiated like myself,and i appreciate the time you have taken to answer any of my largely uneducated questions. Once again, many thanks to you fine people across the pond for responding to a "lowland " scotsman who has more interest in you history than my own country.Mrs tartan cowboy says i was born in the wrong era.Maybe she should add the wrong continent to that statement!

tartan cowboy

Butch:
The 1910 photo of Butch on horseback in mexico,is this the one in the kirby book? The anne charter book i tried to buy online last week,but for some reason it couldn't be shipped to the uk.I would realy like to see the photo.Can it be viewed anywhere else?
Do you believe that the guy claiming to be Harry Longabaugh jr was the real deal?
Is the the butch cassidy smile in the fort worth photo the most enigmatic since the mona lisa?
You previously stated to me "are you aware of the five code if so let me know and we'll speak privately" how would this be possible?

tartan cowboy

Can anyone tell me how to pronounce Duchesne?

Butch

TCB:

1.)Yes, I believe we are talking about the same photo of Butch on horseback.

2.) I don't know if Anne Goddard Charter's photo has been published elsewhere. I haven't seen it elsewhere, as far as I can remember.

3.) If you think, as I do, that there was Ethel Place I and Etta Place II, that Ethel Place I was the Harry The Red Herring phony love interest and Etta Place II was the real deal, then, Harry Jr might just be the real deal. Ms Ernst believes there is a strong family resemblance. Pearl Baker believed Harry Jr knew things that only an insider at Robbers Roost would know. Once again, I'll tip my Stetson to the ladies.

4.) Yep, it's Butch the Mona Lisa for sure. Grinin' like a split overshoe, ain't he?


5.) I think I said "four" code, or at least meant to. O. K. The Key To Rebecca. Comprende?

Anonymous

Can anyone tell me how to pronounce Duchesne?

I believe it is close to .... Du Shane

Anonymous

The 1910 photo of Butch on horseback in mexico,is this the one in the kirby book? The anne charter book i tried to buy online last week,but for some reason it couldn't be shipped to the uk.I would realy like to see the photo.Can it be viewed anywhere else?

Mr. TC. I have two new copies of COWBOYS DON'T WALK, by Mrs. Charter. If you can get me your address, I will be glad to mail you one. Not sure how you wish to do that. If Jerry Nickle still has his website up, possibly you can contact him and he knows how to reach me. Again, just trying to help.

Bob Jayne

Butch

Horse Creek Cowboy:

Yes, you've correctly stated the argument of those who think Harvey Logan was the dead robber --the Pinkertons sided with their railroad clients to avoid having the railroads pay the reward. The fact remains that into 1910 and right up to the present the Agency's official position is it isn't Harvey. I think William was right in 1904. It ain't Harvey.

William was struck by the similarity of the photos of the corpse to the image of Harvey Logan. I believe there is a very good explanation for the similarity of the likeness between the corpse and Harvey Logan: The dead robber was a Logan, just not Harvey Logan.

DNA will tell us for sure. Now if you're willing to man a shovel with me, maybe we can talk Mr. Buck out of his D. C. Townhouse and into doing an honest days work in CO. I'm sure he'd enjoy the change of pace. Even Mr. Buck can't screw this one up. If its Harvey we have a great story. Same thing if it isn't him. Redemption for San Vicente?

jimlyn

Butch:
I responded to your blog, but it never saw the light of day ao if you will email me, I'll try to fill in the blanks.lynchjl@yahoo.com

Anonymous

Do-shane

Anonymous

We need some more pictures to compare. For those that are fortunate enough to have ANNE GODDARD CHARTER'S book COWBOYS DON'T WALK, look on page 56, low right hand corner. With all due respect, is that a picture of Etta, without make up? Both are lovely ladies. And the "watch", what do you say?

Butch

TCB:

I urge you to follow up on Bob's suggestion to contact Jerry. Jerry has all our addresses. I'm not sure you want to join this gang. We're all really disreputable --and old. Golly are we old.

TM

A comment to all...I'm still here and enjoying everyone's contributions. I continue to be amazed by all the related stories and the mysteries. My thanks to all that share. More Please!

tartan cowboy

Anonymous/Bob:
thankyou so very much for your kind offer i believe i will try and take you up on that.If i can find jerry's web site i'll try and contact yourself and Butch.Again i wasn't suggesting you were by any way blowing your own trumpet,i was making a statement.I believe credit where it's due.If you "oldies" are as long in the tooth as you say an approaching middle aged pilgrim like myself can only benefit from your wisdom.Some cultures look upon their elders as being sagely.As it should be.
Butch:
Harry jr said,according to the Kirby book,was a school teacher named Anna Marie thayne and that Etta was in factHazel Tryon.Has yor research flagged anything on these names?Given that he,Harry junior,came out in 1970,a year after the movie,it seems a bit convenient that he says she was a school teacher.Or maybe the movie hit on at least some of the legend.He also seems to have some fanciful ideas like his father killing 28 men,holding caches of guns for them and a pallbearer at BC funeral.

Horse Creek Cowboy

Re: Folowup on Logan:

I don't know that the Pinkerton's position was that it wasn't Logan. Pinkerton in his report to the Bankers did indicate that the body had been identified as Logan, but he had doubts. I do not suggest that Pinkerton expressed doubt merely to stiff the posse of their just due. Since there was doubt, it would be more than embarrassing to identify the body as Logan, pay the rewards and two weeks later to have another train robbery with the same M.O. Mr. Harriman would be unhappy.

Circumstantial evidence also points to the body being Logan. The train robbers (as are all criminals) are creatures of habit. They go back to their wicked ways. Witness Ben Kilpatrick. We simply do not hear from Harvey again (unless he was Duffy).

How long to get court orders in Garfield County and obtain Logan DNA. If it was another Logan, DNA might be inconclusive. If another, who?

Butch

TCB:

I haven't found a thing on Anna Marie Thayne or Hazel Tyron, and if they ever existed I expect it was only in Harry, Jr's alcohol enveloped wet brain. I think if you track Harry Jr what you will find is that his real Mama, whom he never knew, farmed the infant out to distant relatives to raise, Mama being seriously underage. I think you will find that Harry, Jr spent the rest of his life looking for Mama.

The people who raised Harry, Jr. had some knowledge of Harry Sr and better knowledge of Mama, of course.
Again, we can remove all doubt. Sharpen your shovel, convince Mr. Buck and Ms Meadows to join the posse, and let's dig up Harry , Jr and compare his DNA to Longabaugh's. More Redemption for having botched San Vicente so badly. Mr Buck, weilding a shovel for the second time, will have begun to acquire the basics of a skill more suited to his accumen than researcher --Ditch Digger -- a noble, albeit under-appreciated profession perfectly suited to Mr Buck's limited abilities.

Butch

Horse Creek Cowboy:

Your statement that we don't hear from Harvey after 1904 is valid only if you discount Siringo's account of chasing Harvey after a 1908 NM bank job, and only if you discount the receipt of the letter from Jim Ferguson. I, for one am unwilling to do either.

The new reason you offered for William's reluctance to accept the Knoxville identifications-- because the identification was in doubt-- is a tautology exactly the same as Mr. Buck saying after the San Vicente fiasco: "I guess we dug in the wrong spot."
The youth of today have an expression that I believe applies to your statement as well as that of Mr. Buck: "Duh!"

How about a friendly wager of T-bone steaks grilled in the most Green offensive manner we can devise (charcoal?) that DNA comparisons show:

1) It isn't Harvey

2) It is a man with the last name of Logan

Because Mr Buck and Ms Meadows really ought to be in attendance, we can provide Tofu, Alfalfa Sprouts and Soy Milk if they wish. Western Hospitality for D. C. denizens?

Anonymous

Dont you guys go in the back room and carry on this discussion. Have the discussion here so the rest of can benefit.

Anonymous

Daniel Sinclair and Ann Campbell had 11 children among the children were 2 daughters: Annabella and Jane

Jane Campbell married Robert Gillies and had a daughter named Annie

Annie married Maximillian Parker and had a son named Robert LeRoy Parker a.k.a. Butch Cassidy.

Annabella Campbell married John Mcfarlane they had a son named John Menzies Mcfarlane

John Menzies McFarlane married Agnes E. Heyborne they had a daughter named Sarah Ann Mcfarlane

Sarah Ann Mcfarlane married Henry George Mathis they had a son named Murray Mathis

Murray Mathis married Helen Neilsen they had a daughter named Ann Mathis

Ann Mathis married Lee Thayn they had a daughter named Annalee



A few comments ago, someone had comments or a question about a name. I finally understood the bell I heard ringing. I met Annalee in Green River, Utah. She works at the Johb Wesley Powell Museum there. At our first meeting, she mentioned she was a relative of Butch Cassidy. Of course we did have a doubt or two. A few weeks after returning home, she was kind enough to send the above. Hopefully to some, it will be of interest.

Bob Jayne

Butch

Bob:

When I looked for "Anna Marie Thayne" the only people I could find showing up in census or phone books were either in SLC, 1941, and following, California, 1938, or Scotland, 1891. It certainly is possible that Anna Marie Thane was out of the country prior to 1938 and that is the reason no census or directory picked her up. The problem I have with that is we don't have any evidence that Harry, Jr. was out of the country before 1938, when he would have been approximately 37 years old. Each of the women I just listed appear to be single so.... Any thoughts on this?

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