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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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Horse Creek Cowboy

Re: Wallace Ott

Wallace met an individual claiming to be Butch in 1936 in Henrieville. The full story appeared in the Deseret News:

TROPIC OLD-TIMER REMEMBERS BUTCH CASSIDY
By Jerry Spangler, Staff Writer
Published: Monday, Nov. 25, 1991.

Ott explained how he knew the individual was Cassidy:

"There's no doubt, none whatsoever, that it was Butch Cassidy," Ott says. "He had photographs of places he'd been and photographs of people he'd run with. And he knew the stories as only someone who'd been there could tell them."

"And he knew all the local names and histories as only someone who had grown up locally could have.

"Ott, 79, recalls his visit with Cassidy fondly, calling him "well-preserved for a fellow in his 80's." Cassidy was traveling with an attractive woman and drove a nice car. He claimed to have a home in San Diego."

About three years ago, Ott repeated the account of his visit with Cassidy to Photographer John Telford.
Wallace is about 98 years old now.


Butch

Just checking the blog.

Tumbleweed:

Tartan Cowboy gave a good answer to your question. I'm the guilty party who asked the questions. As to where my question was going, I guess the answer is "Not very far". It didn't have legs on this blog as no one wanted to discuss it. It was probably too mundane to be of interest to anyone but me.

If you have a thought about it, I'd like to hear it.

GUE

Thanks, HCC. 98years old! Built to last!

This information on Ott is most helpful. The San Diego reference is something I haven't come across, but it sounds reminiscent of William T. Phillips and some of his excursions mentioned in Pointer's book (regarding his searching for buried loot). In any event, I'm going to scan through Phillips' "Bandit Invincible" manuscript and look for references to San Diego.

Tumbleweed,
I agree with Tartan Cowboy. I may be mistaken, but I've heard reference that the young man in the photo is actually a local cowboy named Mike Steele.

tartan cowboy

have just got a copy of Kirby's the saga of Butch Cassidy etc.There are two photographs supposedly of BC.One on a horse 1912,the other in silver city 1936.The one on the horse is too indistinct,but the older man does have a resemblence,particularly with the fort worth photograph.Any thoughts on these? There is also a very dubious photo of Sundance kid and Kid curry.Was it really Kid Curry killed at Parachute?Any comments on this?
Butch:
I for one would be very interested in hearing your views on the subject Tumbleweed was talking about.Perhaps if you revisit the subject it would spark some comments.They were interesting questions you put out there,and i'm sure you have your own theories to the questions.Look forward to hearing from you.

Butch

TCB:

Well, yes I do. However, I'd like to hear the views of others on this blog. There are a lot of very intelligent people with a lot of knowledge on this subject who contribute here. While waiting for responses, let me ask another dumb question.

Suppose you and I, wanted criminals, were in Fort Worth, Texas, and decided to escape to SA. Further suppose that we both know about the Hall/Nichols escape route to SA by way of cattle boats leaving New Orleans or Galveston, going to Europe, and then SA. Now then, why would we chose to take a supposed Texas Hooker named Ethel Place to Buffalo and then to the Big Apple, when we could just hop a freight from Fort Worth to either New Orleans or Galveston and be on our way? Why go east and risk apprehension? Why have a photograph taken with Ethel/Etta and mail it to Gilespie where it is certain to fall into the hands of law enforcement?
"Look, Pinkertons, here is the drop dead gorgeous woman we are traveling with. She's not only easy on the eyes, but see her once and remember her for life"

tartan cowboy

Butch:
Trying to get my head round this.If they knew about the Hall/nicholls safety route and chose to take the more conventional mode of transport,one can only assume that it possibly was to leave a paper trail for the pinkertons to follow,but why?Was this by way of establishing their location as SA when in fact they intended spending little time in that local? While the pinkertons concentrated their efforts in SA BC/SK where free to carry out their shennanigans back home? If this is the case was Ethel living in cholila with two others?Did Harry acompany ethel back and forth to further establish their whereabouts?As far as the photo goes are you suggesting the hope was that it would fall into the pinkertons hands?The other question was why show this woman once seen never to be forgotten in photographic form? Was it to establish identity? but whose,hers or SK?To what end?Was it harry in the photograph,or a doppleganger?Am i completely off track here?

Butch

TCB:

No, I don't think you're off the track. However, I do believe that no doppelganger was involved and that Harry Longabaugh and Bob Parker were in fact in SA as recorded. I don't believe that they were pulling any crimes either in SA or the US. I believe that they were engaged in the cattle raising business exactly as it appears. The question I think is relevant is: "Who were the real parties in interest in the SA cattle raising venture?" Was it the Hall/Nichols/Newberry group who had been in the business since 1887?

Why not "Follow the money"? Start with the Cholila ranch financing. Currently the literature says that Winnemucca robbery proceeds were used. If so, then Parker and Longabaugh are lugging around $20 grand worth of $20 gold coins from WY to TX to NY. However, Harry and "Ethel" deposited 2,000 pounds in British gold notes (worth $12,000) in the River Platt Bank in BA. Who changed the money? Where is the rest of the money? Remember Harry is broke at Slater around November 1, 1900 and then flush in NY when "Ethel" is around. Why?

Horse Creek Cowboy

Tartan Cowboy:

Re: Kid Curry.

The body based on a letter was initially identified as Tap Duncan. Tap, howver, died in 1944. Dated September 1, 1904, the Pinkertons reported to the American Bankers Association that the body in Parachute had been identified locally as Curry BUT, the Pinkerton's wrote
To confirm identification they sent their Knoxville agent to Colorado. He dug up the remains but they were in such a state of decomposition that identification was impossible. The Pinkertons noted "there is some difference of opinion as to whether or not the dead bandit is Logan, and of this we are in doubt,"

In 1905, "Andrew Duffy" appeared in Chubut. Writer Luis Sepuleda and rodeo producer Milt Hinkle believe that Duffy was Logan. Hinkle has Duffy dying in Bahia Blanca in 1941. Percy Seibert believed that Logan was killed in San Vicente. Others believe that Duffy was killed in 1910.

Since the body was not that of Tap Duncan, most likely, Harvy was killed at Parachute. We of course can go to Bahia Blanca, dig up Duffy and do DNA tests. Title for new book, "Digging up Andy."

Butch

TCB and Horse Creek Cowboy:

Maybe not. On June 10, 1905 J. C. Fraser wrote to James McParland that the latest information received on the dead robber in Parachute Canyon was identified as one Shorty Fox from Holbrook, Arizona.
(Container 91, Folio 2)

Apparently the Pinkertons considered the information to be accurate. On February 3, 1910, William Pinkerton forwarded the Agency's file on Logan to E. Van Buskirk, Superintendant of the National Bureau of Criminal Identification in Washington (forerunner of the FBI). (Container 91, Folio 2) The file's last entry was June 27, 1903, detailing Harvey's escape from jail in Knox County, TN. As of 1910, both the FBI and Pinkertons were still looking for Logan and neither agency believed he died in Parachute Canyon.

Insted of digging up Gold Teeth Duffy, why don't we do a double dig --the corpse in Rifle and Lonny Logan and compare DNA? We could write a book: "Digging Up Logans"

I've got a shovel. Anyone else?

Interested Bystander

Butch and Horse Creek Cowboy-
Just because the body at Parachute (there is no canyon) was not Tap Duncan does not mean that it was Harvey Logan. The wounds do not match Harvey according to the reports of the Coroner. One problem with Butch's suggestion that we dig up the corpse in Glenwood Springs (not Rifle) and compare the DNA to Loney Logan's in Kansas City, is that no one seems to know exactly where it is buried. If anyone is interested I have a precise location according to Jesse Cole Kenworth of the location of the grave of the dead bandit in Rifle, Colorado.

tartan cowboy

Horse creek cowboy: thanks for the info.Another mystery to solve when BC/SK riddle is brought to a close!Bring on the grassy knoll!I've also got a good digging spade!
Butch:
sounds like i am off track a bit.What activities exactly where the Hall/nichols/newberry into?
So they financed Bc/SK/EP venture in cholila?Where they then all part of the same organisation? Did the rest of the money go on buying into the H/N/N group?Did SK/EP travel back on coventional modes of transport to avoid drawing attention to the clandestine safety route? Why the trips back,were they cash couriers?Was ethel already an integral part of the H/H/N group? Can't be just that SK was a bad money manager.Was the deyoung photograph some kind of calling card/pass?Was ethel the main courier and SK was her travelling muscle.Where they really romantically involved?

Butch

Interested Bystander:

I'd be very interested in knowing the exact location of the grave of the dead robber. I don't believe for a minute that a DNA comparison with the remains of the train robber with Logan DNA would result in a match. At the moment I believe that Harvey Logan wasn't anywhere near Parachute or Rifle at the time of the robbery. I believe the final Pinkerton report is accurate, and that the deceased was never identified. William Pinkerton reached that conclusion as early as July 9, 1904 chiefly on the basis of the coroner not finding a bullet wound on the wrist.

Siringo claimed he chased Harvey Logan after a bank robbery in 1908, and also claimed he got a letter from Jim Ferguson saying the three hold ups stayed at his ranch and that Harvey wasn't one of them. Siringo claims he sent the letter to the Burns Agency. That would square with the 1910 inquiry from the FBI.

If we can't find Lonny's grave in KC, how about we try to find Johnny in Landusky?

My shovel is still ready.

Butch

TCB:

I'm of the opinion that H/N/N were nothing more than early SA cattle ranchers who used outlaws with cowboy skills as staff. The Newberry family might have had the cash to get the operation going but I think it is more likely that English/French/Belgian
money was the major source of finance and that the money was funneled through New York capitalists and their British associated banks. After all, the beef and mutton went on British ships to Europe --who couldn't feed itself with local production.

Ethel Place as a money representative? It sure looks that way, doesn't it? After Butch and Harry get the Cochamba trail open and the packing house going, they sell out and "Ethel" takes a powder. "Mission Accomplished"? And, Harry is back on financial skid row. No "Ethel" no dough.

So why the trail so plain it could be followed by anyone? Try this line of thought: Instead of "Harry, The Sundance Kid, Longabaugh" what if it was "Hapless Harry The Red Herring Longabaugh"? If true, what was Harry The Red Herring leading everyone away from? It sure wasn't SA! What then?

Horse Creek Cowboy

Re: Harvey Logan,

Pinkerton may have reached the conclusion on the 9th. The next day he received opposite information. The New York Times, the paragon of reporting all the news that fits, reported on July 11:

"The Pinkerton Agecn at Denver, believing that the dead bandit was Logan, obtained his photograph and sent it to their Chicago agency. Word was received in this city yesterday by Robert A. Pinkerton that the bandit's photgraph had been fully identified by the police, Sheriffs, and jailers of the Knoxville jail, from which he had escapted, as Harvey Logan."

On July 19, 1904, The Spokane Spokesman-Review reported that L. Spence of Chicago from a "leading detective agency" identified the robber as Harvey Logan from photographs. The article continued:

"Spence was unable to complete his identification today for the reason that the body was in such an advanced state of decomposition as to destroy all distinquishing marks. Nevertheless he still maintains that Harvey Logan and the Rio Grande bandid are one and the same person. He has been strengthened in his belief after a talk with a local criminologist who had previously examined the features of the dead bandit."




Interested Bystander

Butch: From a letter dated Dec. 7, 1996 written to me from Jesse Cole Kenworth: "He is buried in Glenwood in Pioneer cemetery section called Gods half acre. His grave is marked with metal marker in a clump of Sage located at front of Neville sisters graves, across from the 10th pole of the chain link fence. His marker is adjacent to the original dividing wooden fence post that remains." Loney Logan's grave in Kansas City is easy. It is in the family plot next to his sister Arda Alma Rodriguez.

Riding By

. If indeed the Place alias came from Harry Longabaugh it seems likely that Etta was a Utah girl or at least living in Utah at the time of the camping out in the winter of 96-97 in Robbers Roost. We have always assumed that the alias came from Longabaugh (his mother's maiden name) but maybe it did not.

RB

RB

Some thoughts.

Harvey showed up around Dave Picard and Vince Hayes ranch on Bridger Creek about May 21, 1904. Wounded by a shot fired by Johnson County under sheriff Beard while at Walt Punteney's place. The men were away on roundup and the women hid him in the root cellar. When the men caught word of this they came and took him by wagon about twenty miles to a cabin on Lake Creek, about fiteen miles northeast of Thermopolis. The story is that he recovered from his wounds and this is about the last we hear of him.

Some believe he shot himself after a botched train robbery near Parachute, Colorado on June 9, 1904. The train robbery was on June 7, 1904 and they had not gotten very far. I don't think Harvey could have been there just sixteen days before being shot on Bridger Creek in Wyoming.

Butch

Horse Creek Cowboy:

I sure hope you're not banking on the Gray Lady to give you your news. The fact is that William, on the 9th commented that: "Naturally, the people at Knoxville who are crooked in this matter, including the Sheriff, would try to make it appear that Logan is dead, to save their own skirts. Personally, I am inclined to believe the Knoxville identification is wrong, but it can never be decided until an examination has been made of the body."

When the examination established the absence of a wrist wound, William's initial opinion stood --well past 1910.

The Gray Lady correctly reported that Robert had received notice of the Knoxville identifications. He got it from William in the letter just quoted. The Times did not report William's disbelief and lack of confidence in the Knoxville identifications.

My goodness! You don't suppose Mr Buck and Ms Meadows worked as Interns at the Times, do you? The manner of reporting half truths, incomplete facts, and manipulated facts is identical to standard NYT practice, then and now.

Butch

Interested Bystander:

Thanks so much for those directions to the grave. They are so specific, I'm sure I can find it.

I'll bet Mr Buck and Ms Meadows wished you were along when they went looking for Butch and Harry. With your help they would have at least looked on the right continent.

tartan cowboy

Butch:
So what we have is BC/SK working for H/H/N group setting things up in SA? Also Ethel as the courier,presumably already connected to H/H/N?She sets in motion to find a patsy and SK fits the bill?
She uses him to escort her back and forth from SA to U.S,not only as protection,but chiefly as a red herring to divert attention away from what? The safety routes?From a person/s? Were the photographs,SK so reluctant to have taken,driven by ethel?Was it's purpose to provide the pinkertons with an image?What was BC role in all of this?was he in on the patsy angle?After they sell up,presumably because their work is done,ethel takes a powder and goes where?Sk is pottless,where does he go next?Where does BC go next?Does he carry on his affiliation with H/H/N.Pearl baker said that Ethel spent time with BC at robbers roost.Was this patsy thing something they hatched together?
While in New york was it SK purpose to be fairly visible while ethel carried on her duties?

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