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Comments about ‘Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?’

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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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Tumbleweed

Didn't i read on a previous posting someone posing a question about Sundance Kid being unwilling to have his photograph taken and always being without cash on the hip unless he was with Etta or Butch?
Also why was he,Harry,travelling back and forth from S.A. to the United States while Butch sat in comfort and safety?
Would the person like to expand on their questions? Where are you going with this?Does anyone know where this blogger is going with this?
There is a supposed photograph of Butch Cassidy at the Horse Creek cabin circa 1889/90,and another one i remember seeing,though can't remember where,with Butch standing beside a horse,but not the alleged teenage photo from the Lady Belle website.I'll try to locate this and post back.

Horse Creek Cowboy



Butch:

Keith doesn't give much information. Most appears to be speculation, but with that said:
Robbery was allegedly in Texas by Ketchum Gang apparently led by Thomas E. Ketchum. Gun came into possession of Sundance Kid and from there to Butch Cassidy and thence to Charter.

I have briefly looked at train robberies associated with Texicans, 1893, they were:
Spring, 1893, Coleman, Texas;
May 2, 1893 Pryor Creek, I. T. John Wilson, Alf Chaney, and Henry Starr;
May 19, 1893 Ponca, I.T. June 24, 1893, Robbery in Choctaw Nation, Noah Lee arrested;
May 26, 1893 California Express between Dodge City and Garden City;
June 25, 1893, a train robbery, Brackenridge, Tex.
November 3, 1893, Olyphant, Ark.


Butch

Horse Creek Cowboy:

Thanks for the information. Let us suppose for the sake of discussion that the Spring, 1893 robbery at Coleman, Texas, was the train robbery where Blackjack stole the Charter Pistol.

If Sundance got the pistol from Blackjack it would have to have been prior to the August 16, 1899 train robbery in New Mexico because Blackjack was captured near the robbery site the next day. Therefore, we would have to find a date between Spring, 1893, and August 16, 1899, when Blackjack and Sundance were in contact. Secondarily, we'll have to come up with a reason why Blackjack would give the weapon to Sundance. Any ideas?

Sundance might have given Butch the weapon anytime between Thanksgiving, 1896, at the Bassett ranch and 1907 --if we assume that Sundance is "Ingersoll" and still in SA.

Butch could have given Bert the weapon anytime between release from prison in January 1896 and 1908 when he was spotted in Wyoming as Hadsell reported.

If these presumptions are anywhere near accurate, then I suppose what we need to do is determine when Blackjack gave the weapon to Sundance, and why, and when Butch gave it to Charter, and why.



Ghosttown Bob

For photos, let's not forget about m/a/z/e's Butch and Sundance website. He has quite a few photos lifted from various sources of not only Wild Bunch members, but lawmen and documents also.

Grow Up Enlightened

Butch and Horse Creek Cowboy,

Thank you for the summary of the photo situation. Much more complicated than I'd imagined, but I'm certainly in support of Correspondent Museums. Great idea.

Looking forward to seeing the Lady Belle site.

GEU

GUE

Thanks, Ghosttown Bob. I'll check out the Butch and Sundance website right away. Sure would like to locate some of these alleged photos that pop up in the literature ...

I'm curious about anyone's opinions of two photos that appear in Matt Warner's "Last of the Bandit Riders (Revisited)."

1. (page 111) Warner and seven others in from of his saloon in Green River, Utah in 1889. Cassidy, apparently sitting in the chair beside the tree, face obscured by shadows.

2. (page 69) George Edward Anderson photo of railroad crew with a bearded Cassidy in the background (enlargement of Cassidy's face on page 70).

This is the edition updated by Joyce Warner and Steve Lacy. Do you think these are verifiable photographs?

Butch

GUE:

The Warner/Lacy book has a lot of great stuff in it. As for the Anderson RR crew photo, this is the photo that TCB and I discussed from Eamonn O'Neill's book. The date attributed to the photo, 1910, more or less rules it out as being a photo of Butch regardless of whether or not you subscribe to the theory that Butch died November 6, 1908 at San Vicente or not. If the best Butch could do was work on a section gang in 1910, he must have lost his midas touch. Quite a comedown from being a SA cattle baron and hobnobbing with the diplomatic set. Then, too, Butch would have been around age 44 when the photo was taken. The figure depicted appears, at least to me, to not be yet 30 years of age. However, Butch or not must remain in the eye of the beholder.

The photo on page 111, I'm willing to agree, is one of Butch, merely because Matt says it is. However, I'm not willing to give the date of the photo as 1889 for several reasons.

Continued ..........

Interested Bystander

If you guys will look at the entries that Kid Charter placed on June 8th you will note what he says about Olin Emery. The story about Tom Ketchum having the pistol (Charter Pistol) is bunk. I suspect that the story about it being lifted in a train robbery is also bunk. Are there any sources for this other than someone said? Everything that is written down is not necessarily fact. According to the Charters the pistol came from Longabaugh not Butch!

Butch

1.) The photo made it into Matt's 1940 book, published after his death, between pages 138 and 139. Matt did not date the photograph. Apparently Lacy dated the photo from it's placement in the chapter dealing with Matt, Butch, and Tom McCarty hiding out in Robbers Roost after the Telluride bank job.

2.) The figure seated in the doorway of the saloon is, according to Matt, Sheriff Tom Fares. According to Matt, he took Fares pants from him when Fares dared to enter the Roost looking for Butch, Matt and Tom on the Telluride escape. It isn't likely that Fares would join the boys for a friendly drink in Green River after having been stripped of his pants a few days before --especially with most of the western U.S. looking for the 3 named Telluride robbers. If Butch, Matt, and Fares were photographed in 1889, it would only be with Butch and Matt wearing shiny bracelets and with Fares leveling a Colt at them.

3.) In 1889, Matt would have been 25 years old. In the photo Matt appears to be at least 36 to 40 years of age.

Continued ...............

Butch

4.) In 1889 Longabaugh was either in jail in Sundance, Wyoming, or on the run following the shooting in the dug out on Oil Creek, or on his way to Canada. No chance, no way, he was having a drink with Butch and Matt in 1889 in Green River.

So, while I'll accept the photo as depicting the figures as Matt described in his book, no way will I accept Lacy's dating of the photo as 1889.

Best guess? The photo was taken shortly after Matt was released from prison, January 21, 1900. If that is true, I can well understand Sheriff Fares in the photo. Matt was no longer wanted and neither was Butch, the Statute of Limitations for Telluride having long since tolled. Harry was wanted for the Bell Fourche bank job, innocent though he was, but he was wanted under the name of Jones.

I haven't blogged anythin here that is "proof" one way or another. I just expressed my opinion based on my reasoning from facts. Others no doubt see it differently. That is precisely what makes this so interesting and fun.

Butch

Interested Bystander:

Yes, everything you say is true. However, that is entirely beside the point under discussion. Ghosttown Bob introduced Valley's allegations under discussion. We are discussing those allegations to see if they have merit. Why not join in the discussion? I can't think of a time or place when Longabaugh and Ketchum were together, and I can't come up with a reason why Ketchum would give Longabaugh a weapon. Can anyone else?

Anonymous

It is fun, seeing what folks will believe. After all the dust settles, if it ever does, as has been pointed out, there are three pictures of Butch Cassidy, that are of him. The mug shot, Ft. Worth and the cabin picture in So. Am. The more that is weitten, the farther from what was reality, we get.

Horse Creek Cowboy

Interested Observer:

Except for the material from Kathleen Hoyt quoted by Kid Charter relating to the serial number, consignee, etc. of the "famous" Charter gun, everything seems to be family legend originating with Boyd Charter. According to Keith's website, the gun bears Sundance's mark. Undoubtedly, however, the gun's travels originated in Texas. The question remains, how did it get to Antelope Flats. If stolen in train robbery, I would be inclined to either Breckenridge or Coleman, more likely because of timing to Breckenridge. That would have enabled the gun to have been delivered to the dealer in Sherman.

If gun given to Sundance, most likely at the WS. All, however, is speculation, unless we employ a medium.

Anonymous

It is amusing to know there are people that believe Butch and Sundance were killed in San Vicente. Thankfully the more that is written the more we will know what really happened.

A Thought

"Thankfully the more that is written the more we will know what really happened."

Didn't you mean to say....the more that is written, the less we will know of whar really took place. Each writing brings a change. What actually took place, never changes.

AT

GUE

Has the notion that Cassidy died in Henrieville in 1936 (according to Wallace Ott) been supported by anyone else? There are only brief mentions of this over the Internet. Any thoughts?

Tumbleweed

The photo i was refering to with Butch standing next to a horse is in the "the encyclopediia of western lawmen & outlaws by Jay Robert Nash 1994 on page 68.Has anyone any thoughts on this photo?
GUE.
please expand on your blog. What is henriesville? What is theory on this?
has my initiall blog been ignored? does the the person who blogged the questions i refered to not wish to answer? have they no answer? Was it a rhetorical question? Do they not have an answer?

GUE

Hi Tumbleweed,

Sorry--I must have missed your initial blog (trying to get up to speed here).

While searching online, I stumbled across that name Wallace Ott, an old-timer who once claimed that he spoke with Cassidy after his return from S. America. Ott claimed that Cassidy died in a town called Henrieville in 1936; this may have been in an article called "Did Butch and sundance Return?" (Buck and Meadows). I was hoping to verify that this was not just another William T. Phillips sighting, but I can only find Ott's name online with very brief testimonies such as "an old-timer who claimed to have spoken with Butch Cassidy in the 1930s" etc.

The years 1936-1937 seem to be a hotspot for theories regarding Cassidy's time of death, and I was hoping to cross-reference this Henrieville idea with the others. However, I can't find Ott in any publications (I apologize if I missed any in your initial blog--I'll go back and check).

Thanks for any thoughts.

Anonymous

This will probably be of little value but at one time I was given Mr. Ott's name and phone number. The party that gave me the information also stated, he most likely won't answer the phone, as he his fed up with questions about Butch Cassidy. Ott was to have known Butch after his return to the US. At this time Mr. Ott lived in Tropic, Utah. The white pages currently lists a Wallace Ott in Tropic, ph # 435 679 8626. (doubt if it is the same one) Due to the years that have passed, I would be surprised if Wallace Ott is still living. Hope this can be of some help.

Bob Jayne

tartan cowboy

tumbleweed:
I believe the previous blog you're refering to was posted by butch.If you you read back you'll see he was posing questions based on observations,not making statements.
I can't comment on the photograph in the nash book as i don't have a copy.I think the other photographs you mentioned,the teenage BC with horse and the horse creek BC sitting are both in the pointer book, but i dont know how authentic these are.
How does one pronounce Duchesne?

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