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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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Ms. G.R

Thank you Linguist. It is because he is afraid that Bill Long will be proven to Be Harry Longabaugh. He is even more afraid that he will not have any control over it.

Your Favorite Mouse

It is a shock to learn Mr. Iverson is so well known. Way to go Butch.

YFM

Anonymous

Why do our "experts" tend to go away at the appearance of facts?

Butch

Kid Charter:

I just arrived back from the Foggy Bottom mission. Do you have any information on the .45 Colt Olin Emery talked about as being either a companion weapon or odered by Black Jack Ketchum? Emery's discussion is the only information I have ever seen about this weapon.

tartan cowboy

anonymous: thanx for the heads up on the book "Cowboys don't walk" tried to buy it from amazon but it couldn't be shipped to uk for some reason,so haven't seen the photo of BC with charter.is it authentic? are there any other authentic photos that i'm not aware of?
I also read somewhere about a possible photo of an older BC in an Ed Kirby book.Any one have any comments on this? which book is it?
i know it's not the most important area in finding any historical facts,but i'm a very visual person and have a certain artistic streak to feed,so all info on photos on BC/SK would be good.
Any news on the DNA?

Anonymous

There is a photo of Butch Cassidy and George Bullock in Doris Burtons Queen Ann Bassett alias Etta Place. The book is now out of print. It appears to be a photo of a teenage Butch Cassidy standing with George Bullock sitting. They are wearing cowboy garb. The photo was taken in Salt Lake City.
Kirbys book has a the well known Butch Cassidy Prison photograph.

Anonymous

Most have told me there are three authentic pictures of Butch Cassidy. The prison mug shot, Ft. Worth and the photo in So. Am. The rest maybe just wanted to be.

Anonymous

Who were the experts that authenticated only three photographs? Why did they not find the Charter and Burton photographs authentic? I suspect the they do no not believe the Charter photograph is authentic because it would make their theory of Butch being in Argentina in 1901 wrong. What other reason is there? The Charter photograph was taken in New York City Feb 1902. Butch had this photograph taken shortly before he left New York for Argentina for his first time. He arrived in Burnos Aires and filed for land at the government office April 3, 1902.
The experts did not discover the Burton Photograph so they ignore it. Only the experts make discoveries.

Grow Up

I dont agree with Buck and Meadows theory regarding death in San Vincente, but theyve devoted as much time, money, effort and serious and ethical research into this mystery as any of you. If you want the truth about Cassidy, act like responsible researchers and consider all angles with an open mind. I come out looking for valuable informationand its herebut its buried in a compost heap of peanut-brained insult.

Kid Lutefisk,
(computers were instruments of the devil, a fad, and [will] soon go away) What are you using to communicate with on this forum?

Kid Lutefisk,
(In defense of Jerry Nickle I would like to say that I personally know the man to be possessed of a character beyond reproach. Along that line, I believe it to be entirely unfair of all of us to demand that Jerry reveal the crux of his position) Isnt this what youre expecting of Buck?

Driftwood (Dont complain about Bucks bilingual abilities. If you want the facts, learn Spanishlike hes doneand stop whining.)

Contd.

Grow Up 2

Anonymous ( Ms Meadows does not use a single Chapter Note, Foot Note, or End Note. Not one, and that is a fact) Are we reading the same book? Those little numbers at the ends of sentences. Those are called "end notes." E-N-D-N-O-T-E-S. Say it with me

Jerry Nickle (The best primary source is Charles Siringo..) This seems to contradict other comments posted about Pinkerton information being at best secondary.

How does it feel to be insulted simply for stating your opinion? If this were the Wild Bunch, you'd at best be a bunch of Gunplay Maxwells.

Photos Online?

Anonymous,

This information about the alleged photo of Cassidy and Bullock is fascinating.Do you know if anyone has it posted online? Or the Charter and Burton photos?

Butch

Grow Up:

1.) The copy I have of "Digging Up Butch & Sundance" by Anne Meadows is the 1996 edition of the 1994 original issue, Revised Edition. My copy contains no footnotes, chapter notes, or end notes. Are you telling us that a subsequent edition of Ms Meadows book contains end notes? If so, that would be a most valuable addition to the literature. Please tell us which edition you have that contains end notes.

2.)Ms Meadows and Mr Buck have published one book and numerous articles regarding Butch and Sundance in South America. Because they have published they are "fair game" for criticism, as any authors would be. Jerry Nickle has not yet published nor has his film been released, and therefore the only material we have for critical review and discussion is that which appears on this blog. The "crux" of Jerry's argument --DNA comparison -- has not been released. Release of the results of the comparison before release of the book/film would, I imagine, seriously depreciate the revenue from those properties.

Continued ..............

Butch

On the other hand, when Jerry and/or members of his team blog, for example, that the Pinkerton reports of 1900-1901 are "forgeries", I believe it is entirely fair to challenge the statement, and it most certainly is fair and resonable to discuss the matter.

3.) Your point regarding the practice on this blog of engaging in personal attacks is well taken, and I find myself in complete agreement with you. I consider myself properly chastened and will not do it in the future. I enjoy the robust debate on this blog and hope we can all benefit from it. I most certainly have.

4.) The comment about computers being "instruments of the Devil" was partially tongue in cheek. In fact, I am frequently flumexed by the contraption, and, in addition, long for the days when I received letters rather than email. My attitude is no doubt influened by my advanced age. I fully understand that others have an opinion different than mine.

I found your comments interesting and stimulating. I hope we read more from you in the future.

Grow Up Now Enlightened

Butch,

Having read this, I can safely say: I was wrong, as were my assumptions about the spirit of this blog. Excellent response and I'm better off for it. Thank you, Butch.

Looking forward to future comments.

Grow Up Now Enlightened

I feeling a little humble now, but would like to ask if anyone knows of any online repositories or collections of alleged photographs of the Wild Bunch. I've heard rumours of photos of Doc Masson, Cassidy as a young man with George Bullock, etc., but I can't seem to locate any. And the books they appear in are either out of print or quite expensive. Any ideas?

Butch

Grow Up:

You're more than welcome. Anything I can do to help advance the ball on this fascinating subject is what I want to do.

I'm not aware of any on-line source of a Wild Bunch photo collection. It would be nice if we had one so that we could all look at and discuss the various photos in play.

With the exception of the photographs in the Pinkerton files at the Library of Congress, most photographs are in the collections of private parties and are subject either to copyright restrictions, museum or archive regulations, or the desire of private parties to benefit financially from their ownership. Of the latter group are the three "post card" photographs of Butch and Sundance at Cholila circa 1903-1904 which are the property of Paul Ernst, Donna Ernst's husband. I'm hard pressed to find fault with a private individual's assertion of property rights and am very vigorous in my support of them.

Most museums and archived collections have a schedule of charges for the use of their material in publications or film.

Continued .........

Butch

The theory is that an author or film maker will profit from publication or distribution and thereby recoup the cost of using the material. The same holds true for documents, letters, and in some cases newspaper articles. I'm afraid this does nothing for your original request for a convenient, cost effective way to view the photographs.

For the past two years I've advocated the idea of "Correspondent Museums" each member of which would license others in the association to display their material at no cost. Thus, each member of the group would appreciably increase their original material. Because museums and archieves are open to the public for research with a view toward benefiting the communities in which they are located,hopefully one of the members would be located reasonably close to each one of us. I've had some success with this idea. If you think this is worthwhile and of public benefit, I hope you will advocate the idea.

Once you get into the verification of photographs relative to the Wild Bunch, I must warn you that you are about to enter a sort of twilight zone where reality is quite often distorted.

Continued ........

Butch

Free Photos:

1.) The Fort Worth Five is the photo at the top of this blog. The original is in the Pinkerton files at the Library of Congress, and not subject to copyright restrictions.

2.) The DeYoung photo of Sundance and Etta, February, 1901, is also in the LOC.

3.)The Wedding Photo of Kid Curry and Annie Rogers is also in the Pinkerton files at LOC.

4.)Butch Cassidy's "Mug Shot" from the Laramie Penitentary is also in the Pinkerton files at LOC, however, the Wyoming Cultural Resources Center claims ownership of the original photograph. You can copy and distribute the photo from Butch's PNDA card.

5.) You can look at a photo collection of relevance on line at the Utah State Archive in Salt Lake City.

6.) The Hobo Photo of Kid Curry, and the "booking photos" of Tom O'Day and Walt Punteney are available for viewing to researchers at the Adams House and Museum in Deadwood, South Dakota.

So far as I know, these are the only "for free" photos available to a citizen. Unfortunately, unless my idea of corresponddent museums takes hold, a lot of travel is involved.

I hope this helps.

Horse Creek Cowboy

An alleged teenaged Butch Photo is available on Lady Belle Outlaw's Hideout website. I have seen the photo before and, if memory serves me right, a copyright was claimed. Unless there is more than one famous Bert Charter Colt, Keith Valley claims that the gun was stolen from a gun dealer during a train robbery. Thus, it would not have been custom made for Ketchum, unless of course the gun dealer was concealing that he was selling weapons to outlaws.

Butch

Horse Creek Cowboy:

Good info on Lady Belle. I forgot to mention to Grow Up the "Legends of America" website which has a great number of Photos. And, I shouldn't have overlooked the 'Wyoming Tales and Trails" website which is chock full of interesting photos. I'm sure there are others I missed. Perhaps other contributors to the blog can help Grow Up with additional sites.

I have a continuing interest in the Charter Pistol and was not previously aware of Keith Valley's allegation. Could you tell me:

1.) Which train robbery the weapon was allegedly stolen from?

2.) Date, place, and presumed suspects in the robbery would be most helpful.

3.) Current theory on the possession of the weapon between the alleged train robbery and it's acquisition by Bert Charter, circa post 1900?

4.) The name of the alleged gun dealer and his location at the time of the robbery, i.e. his hometown at the time and his point of departure as well as his intended place of arrival?

Thanks for the information.

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