Comments about ‘Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?’

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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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Passing By

From a distance Butch, you seem rather touchy, when a poster suggests a book you did not list. It also would appear to be childish to insult one's reading ability. If you don't like what you say being criticized, possibly you need to consider, not saying it. Even non-readers are entitled to their opinion.




Still trying to stir the pot without a spoon? Well, Bob, why not do something completely out of character for you and blog about an issue, a fact you've uncovered, or an insight you've made? Better yet, why don't you treat all of us to a rendition of the famous "Hanksville Coin Trick" you tried? When you blew it, a good chunck of Utah is still laughing and telling the story. My point is, you never contribute a single thing to anyone's efforts on the Wild Bunch. Everything you do is only for the purpose of sticking a fork in the wheel of discovery by launching personal attacks. I find you tiresome.

Passing By:

Have we met? Maybe not.
"If you knew Bobby,
like I know Bobby,
Oh, Oh, Oh what a Pill!"

I guess you'd have to meet Bobby to fully understand.

I hope you pass by again when the blog is discussing something of value.



I think you and I were both at Blondis when BE told about the coin trick. Am I right? Yes, I'm still laughing.

Would you mind getting back to the Wild Bunch? I'd like to read more about the Frank Dimaio notebook entry you and TCB were discussing. Thanks.

tartan cowboy

Butch. re the hutcheon research, i'll do my best,may take a while.
Re the o'neill book,don't spend to much sleepless nights over it,it's not that insightful,but has it's humerous moments'and he is afellow scot after all.
thanks for your input on the 19.10 photo,can't totally agree with you on that one, think the likeness is uncanny,but like you have no proof.it's all about opinions'
mrs tartan cowboy says hello.she is scoffing saying am " going to be a private dick now?" she is thoroughly enjoying reading the blog,especially the "bitching".
a warm welcome from to all new bloggers from one new one.


Better yet, why don't you treat all of us to a rendition of the famous "Hanksville Coin Trick" you tried?

Ah Butch, could I buy a vowel? Are you confronting Marilyn, Bob,Jerry, Bobby, M&M, or just grabbing straws. You may get it right yet. If I were the "unreading Bobby", and also can't hear, pray tell how I am to learn , like you, and make a report. Can't wait to learn about your "coin trick".


That unbalanced situation seemed to persist until the 6 year Nevada Statute of Limitations tolled when Butch seemed to be everywhere, UT, WY, TX, and NM.

Post 1909, there are repeated reports about Butch, but very few about Harry. Why? If both Harry and Butch were in Carbon County in 1909, it means they both survived SA. What happened to Harry? What happened to Ethel? If olin Emery, a Sheriff is correct, then "Ethel" Place as "Etta" Place was in Price, Utah post 1910 when Mary Calvert was Mrs. Elzy Lay. Again, if Harry and Ethel are husband and wife, and Harry is on the Little Snake in 1909, where is he in post 1910?

I wish I had more answers and fewer dumb questions for you Pixie. I sure my fellow bloggers can provide some fresh looks, new thoughts, and maybe some answers.



Question regarding the 1910 photo. If it is indeed Butch, would that mean that he fell on hard times and had to work a RR section gang?

On the James Kirton Hutcheon hunt, I suggest you have fun trying your hand at the "private eye" routine. As for the Missus, you might try what I did, which was to remind her that, aside from Sherlock Holmes, every Private Eye worth a darn had a bombshell of a female partner. The Cherokee looked at my sleuthing in a whole new light, being rather flattered that I wanted her to partner up in the game. From that time to this we're pals on the case.

Other spousal partners are Dan Buck and Anne Meadows, and Jerry and Belle Nickle. I know for a fact that Pixie, Barbarella, and Ancient Mariner have spouses, and they are in the game.

The Cherokee sends her warm greetings to you and Mrs. TCB, a sentiment with which I wholeheartedly agree.



I remember you very well. Thanks for your help picking out the hat. I have it still.

I think my Bonny Scot Pal, TCB, will be easily persuaded to continue our discussion of the Frank Dimaio notebook entries.

What I found of special interest in Dimaio's entry regarding the purported mail cover on Samanna was that, if I got my calendar straight, Harry mailed two letters on or about February 25, 1902, with one letter going to Samanna and the other letter going to David Gillespie. The result of these letters was that the Pinkertons and law enforcement officers were not only put on Harry's trail and Buffalo and NYC, but they then knew Harry's coountry of refuge --Argentina.

I don't believe Harry was an irrational person, however, writing those two letters, shortly before he got on a boat with alias Ethel Place bound for NYC, seems very irrational. Whenever a rational person does something irrational --diametrically opposed to their self interest -- I want to know why.

All of this links to my questions regarding Harry going from being camera shy in 1897 to a regular camera "hog" 1900 and following. Why?

Continued .......


The same applies to the question of Harry being flush with cash and living grand whenever in the company of Butch and Ethel but being desperately poor when neither is around. Why is that?

Ghosttown Bob offered the suggestion that Harry spent all his money living large and settled a large sum on Ethel circa 1905. That may be, however, the same didn't seem to be the case with Butch who not only lived well but prospered well into 1909 if we give full credence to the 1908 and 1909 Pinkerton reports and if there is any weight to my argument that Butch was heavily involved in the 1910-1920 Rickard/Nichols/Farquart Rio Paraguay cattle venture. What accounts for the difference between the two? Was Butch merely a better money manager, or did he have access to funds Harry didn't have?

Then too, why was Harry the one who left the safety of SA and kept escorting Ethel back and forth, taking the risk of discovery and apprehension while Butch loafed around in perfect safety?

Continued ......

tartan cowboy

Pixie: the Dimaio reports are,i agree very intresting and requires further discussion.
Butch:re 1910 photo.I'm not suggesting it is butch,we all have dopplegangers,but just that there is avery strong resemblance and perhaps the origin of the photo should be looked into.perhaps mr bettenson would firnish us with details.re the working on the railroad.Didn't BC/SK and others of their ilk when inbetween "jobs" indulge in some "honest graft" as we say over here?
What do the pinkertons report on BC 1908/09?
The whole camera shy/financial issue with SK is interesting would like to hear more.Your continued blog seems to have vanished into the ether.

Bob Jayne

My apologies to all, as I reply to BI.
The coin that brought you (and others) so much laughter. I called your BE, as I recalled nothing about it. After BE explained what she remembered, sorry I still didnt recall. But if my not finding a coin in 8 days of luggage brings you a smile, so be it.
Contribution. Yes I could bore all with the many books Ive read. Others have too. My opinions would be no better than anyones. What I could have provided, that most would enjoy, is the communication and meeting members of the Parker/Betenson families. Lulas daughter, Bill and his Mom and Dad, and recently talking with Butchs brother Dan Parkers, Grandson. A nice man. But we know where that would lead. They do too.
I do recall a few years ago, when Jerry introduced you to a small group we had. It was fun for a while. Then someone tried to bully us. I think we all left.

tartan cowboy

how many photos do we have of BC? i know of the laramie, the fort worth ,and two from SA.is there any more,and where can i view them?
same question for SK,i know the fort worth, the de young and two? from SA.is there any more and again where can i view them?
seems to be a very quiet day today.is this some kind of holiday in the states?
Butch: mrs tartan cowboy,and tartan cowboy junior says hello to you and cherokee,hope you are all well.


There is a photograph of Butch Cassidy and Burt Charter on page 57 in Anne Charters Cowboys Dont Walk. This photo was taken in New York City in 1902.

Kid Charter

Butch, The famed Charter Pistol
According to Olin Emery's 1980 letter to True West, the famed Charter Pistol, a .38-40 single action Colt, serial no. 151179, originally was made to order for Black Jack Ketchum and delivered to El Paso, TX. After Black Jack was hung, George West Musgrave obtained the gun. Musgrave married Jano Magor, sister to Maud Magor, Bert Charter's wife. Shortly after the marriage, Musgrave, fleeing a murder warrant, gave the Colt to Bert Charter to secure a $150 debt.

Olin Emery's 1980 letter to True West, was a rebuttal to Boyd Charter's claim that his father Bert Charter had been an outlaw. In 1945, while Boyd Charter was serving in the United States Navy, his mother, Maud Charter, was convinced that Boyd would not return alive. Boyd felt that in his absence, Olin Emery had influenced his mother, to sell the Spring Gulch Ranch, at Jackson Hole, all of Boyd's personal belongings, burn all of Bert Charter's photo albums, letter's and personal documents, she gave Olin Emery the 38-40 pistol that had been promised to Boyd Charter.

Kid Charter

When Boyd Charter returned home after the war, he demanded that the pistol be returned to him, as the rightful heir, only after Boyd threatened legal action, did Olin return the pistol. Neither man liked one another from that point on. Olin Emery went on to say that Bert Charter had never been an outlaw, or involved with Butch Cassidy as an outlaw. He described how Bert and his parents first lived in Grand Junction, Colorado. Olin Emery was either mislead by his father-in-law, Bert Charter, or purposely distorted the documented facts.

Martha Charter and her three sons, Robert Henry "Bert" Charter, Ernest Gaylord "Kid" Charter and Wade Clark Charter, arrived at the home of her father, Charles Hughes, in Dixon, the summer of 1887. Her husband, Albert Charter, had abandoned her and the children in Iowa. The older daughter, Mary Mamie Charter died in Iowa, in 1885. Martha Charter gave birth to Arlie Hughes Charter, in Rawlins, on December 6, 1887. Bert Charter and Kid Charter worked for Charles Perkins in Dixon and later for various ranchers in the Snake river valley.

Kid Charter

In the early years, Martha Charter, was destitute and worked at various jobs in both Rawlins and Dixon, to support the family, including one year for Charles Perkins at his mercantile store in Dixon. Martha Charter obtained a divorce from Albert E. Charter in Manchester, Iowa, in May 1890. On June 21, 1892, Martha Charter married Reuben Henry Wilbur in Rawlins, Wyoming. Reuben Wilbur was army quartermaster agent at Rawlins. On February 21, 1893, Martha Reuben gave birth to Reuben Henry Wilbur Jr., in Rawlins. That same year, Reuben Wilbur Sr. was reassigned as army quartermaster agent at Fort Duchense, Utah, where he served until his retirement in 1896, they then moved to Grand Junction, Colorado, where Reuben died in 1898 and Martha in 1901. Documented fact.
According to what Bert Charter told his immediate family of the pistol, a .38-40 single action Colt, serial no. 151179, had belonged to Harry Longabaugh. There are no confirmed reports that the pistol was special ordered by Tom Black Jack Ketchum in the latter 1890s. The question is, was Olin Emery also wrong about the original owner of the pistol?


Wow this is so cute, you guys snipe like 12 year old girls at a slumber party. Brings me back to my middle school days. So, who is dating who, and who's the skank that totally held his hand in the hallway?

Kid Charter

Olin Emery's 1980 letter to True West, was a rebuttal to Boyd Charter's claim that his father Bert Charter had been an outlaw. In 1945, while Boyd Charter was serving in the United States Navy, his mother, Maud Charter, was convinced that Boyd would not return alive. Boyd felt that in his absence, Olin Emery had influenced his mother, to sell the Spring Gulch Ranch, at Jackson Hole, all of Boyd's personal belongings, burn all of Bert Charter's photo albums, letter's and personal documents, she gave Olin Emery the 38-40 pistol that had been promised to Boyd Charter. It would not be the least bit surprising to those of us, who know anything about Bert and Kid Charter, that Olen Emery probably was not told and therefore did not know the truth about Bert Charters early days as an outlaw. The Charters maintained a strict code of silence, and Olin Emery would have been considered an outsider, even though, he married into the family. There is also the possibility that Emery knew, but having been a sheriff, did not want it known that his own father-in-law had been an outlaw.

Kid Charter

The famed Charter Pistol 38-40 single action Colt, serial no. 151179, owned and in the possession of the Montana, Charters.

Colts Manufacturing Company, Inc. March 5, 2004
Colt, by means of this letter, is proud to authenticate the manufacture of the Colt firearm with the following serial number:
Colt Single Action Army Revolver.
Serial Number: 151179
Caliber: 38/40
Barrel Length: 4
Finish: Nickel
Type of Stocks: Pearl
Factory Engraved: Yes
Shipped To: Roberts, Willis & Taylor Company
Address: Sherman, Texas
Date of Shipment: June 15, 1893
Number of Same Type
Guns in Shipment: 1

We trust you will find the historical information, retrieved from the original Colt shipping records, to be of interest.

Kathleen J. Hoyt.

As any linguist can tell...

Butch is actually about 60 percent of all the different names used on this comment board. A simple analysis of the syntax shows that the same person is speaking under different names. I wonder what the purpose is and why go to such an effort when the audience is so small that it is of no consequence in the scheme of things... unless one wishes to get under someone's skin. Hmmmmm.

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