Comments about ‘Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?’

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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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Ms. Mous

"What say you Butch, are you seeking revenge or the truth?"

You aren't going to be like the SAFA (self appointed foremost authority) are you? When confronted with facts, or questions that could put you in a bad light, you look the other way.

I would think if Mr. Nickle's project is so bad, you would not want to be associated with it anyway.



I think you all asked fair questions, if one assumes that my involvement with Jerry and the Bill Long Story is material to a discussion of the facts and issues that comprise the basis of this blog. With that proviso, I'll do the best I can to respond.

I believe that Jerry and I are a parallel case to Jim Dulenty and Larry Pointer. Both of those men looked at the Bill Phillips as Butch Cassidy question. Initially they operated as partners and looked at the same material, the same documents, and the same fact base. They reached different conclusions, with Dulenty forming the opinion that Phillips was not Cassidy and Pointer believing that Phillips was Cassidy. At that point the two men separated in terms of their joint effort regarding Phillips.

Jerry introduced me to the Bill Long as Harry Longabaugh question in January, 2007. We looked at the same documents, the same fact base, the same evidence. Ultimately, by mid-July 2007, we had reached different conclusions. I concluded that Bill was not Harry and Jerry concluded that Bill was Harry.

Continued .........


I believe that Mr Buck and Ms Meadows, among others, have successfully demonstrated in their various articles and Digging Up Butch and Sundance, that Pointer was wrong and Dullenty is correct. However, if that results in throwing all of Pointer's work under the bus, then I think we make a gross error. Further, I am of the opinion that Bill Phillips is a person of great interest, and we have much to learn by continuing to look into him.

I have the same opinion regarding Jerry and his work on Bill Long. If it be proved that I am correct and Jerry is wrong, I am steadfast in my opinion that all of Jerry's work should not be discounted, and that Bill Long as Bill Long, not as Harry Longabaugh, is a person of continuing interest that should be scrutinized more fully. We have a good deal more to learn if we continue investigating Bill Long.

It would not be correct if readers of this blog assume that Jerry and I have ceased all working together. Indeed, at the present time we are hard at work on a joint project.


I committted to Jerry and other of our pals to produce a draft, or outline, of the facts, evidence, and line of argument on an issue that we believe will be of interest to the general public and readers of this blog in particular. The draft will be circulated, and when Jerry and I believe the work has been sufficiently vetted, it will be published, with the two of us as co-authors.

It is true that Jerry invited me to join the film effort, and that I declined. It is also true that I have asked Jerry to be my publisher for books in the works. So far, Jerry has not declined.

I would like Jerry to jump into this blog full force, and give us the benefit of his views, and his considerable knowledge of this subject. We would all benefit. It isn't material --at least to me -- if Jerry declines to discuss facts or issues that bear directly on the Bill Long as Harry Longabaugh question. However, this blog has raised countless issues and questions that are on the margins of that one issue or are completely divorced from it.

tartan cowboy

bletchley park:i've never been,but it was so important to all the allies during ww2 saving countless numbers of lives.the sad aspect to recent stories on our tv news programmes about bletchley is that it is going to rack and ruin through lack of funds.it is mostly run on handouts and the generosity of some folks who at least have asemblance of it's historic value.forgotten,much like our old soldiers.
what's the significance of the "Bulldog Sallon" photo?


It distresses me to hear that Bletchley Park has fallen on hard times. I've always thought it was a wonderful symbol of what can be accomplished when Great Britain and the U. S. partnered on a matter of great importance.

The reason why I asked about Bletchley Park was by way of raising with you possible interest you might have in joining up with your Yankee friends --may I include myself among them? -- and doing a bit of investigative work on the Wild Bunch.

A good many of us put "boots on the ground" in UT, WY, TX, NM, SD, MT, ID, NV, and elsewhere, tracking the Wild Bunch. Sadly, we have no "Man Across The Pond", and that is a great pity because there are so many Brits and Scots involved in the true story.
If you are so inclined, how does the idea of sleuthing in Scotland and England stike you?

Re the Bulldog Saloon Photo: There is a photograph circulating in the literature which purports to be a photograph of the Bulldog Saloon, presumably in Baggs, WY, and possibly having a good many Wild Bunch members in it.

Continued ............


The current debate or controversy centers around the date of the photo, the place of the photo, and which of the multiple figures in the photo are whom.

Each of these issues is of importance. For example, if the Photo is proved to be taken in Baggs in 1896, and Bill McCarty is "in the picture", then the theory that Tom McCarty and not Bill was killed at the Delta bank job would gain traction. And so on.

If you obtain a copy of Larry Pointer's book, "In Search of Butch Cassidy," you can see the photograph and get Pointer's opinion and thoughts. Mr Buck has written on the photo, and he might favor you with his thoughts, which are different than Pointer's. The subject is very interesting, and is another example of "no matter how much you think you know, there is always more to learn."

I think it fair to say that no one person would ever be able to acquire all the documents, facts, articles, and evidence necessary to tell the full story of the Wild Bunch. Those who try must "get by with a little help from their friends."

tartan cowboy

Butch: i know the photo in question,i have a copy of the book.don't know much about it though.has any one in the photo been authenticated? doesn't look like sundance.there is other obvious ones ,the logans etc. is it butch?
regarding the research,sounds interesting don't know how much help i could be but i'm willing to try ,but don't know where to start.what is wild bunch scottish connection,apart from BC grandparent and gorbals boy mr pinkerton?
perhaps if dan buck is reading he could share his thoughts on the bulldog saloon photo?


Hutcheon had an American wife, Frances Miller from PA, and nine kids. I'll work Hutcheon from Stateside.

Mr Buck and Ms Meadows are the resident authorities on Hutcheon. As a general rule, whenever Mr. Buck becomes aware of a request for assistance he responds promptly and generously. I expect that will be the case here. It doesn't seem to matter if you support his positions or not.

Good Luck to you and I'll save a bit for myself.



Everybody has their own method of tracking. Here's mine. I like to go to the place(s) where my target is known to have been. (Dyce/Edinburgh?) I'll hang around a saloon (pub?) and make friends of the locals, telling everybody who I am and what I'm looking for. Someone usually directs me to an oldtimer in the area. I also hang out at the local library, local museum, and local historical society and ask questions there. These are normally gold mines of information. Next stop is the county court house where I ask the registrar for help looking up deeds to real estate. I also stop in the local newspaper office and spend some time reading back issues around the dates I'm interested in. Local cemetaries can yeild information and most bone yards have registers of internments. That's about it. Pretty simple, very effective, and very enjoyable. One gets to travel, meet new people, sample local foods, and see the sites. I tease my pals about me "working too hard".



I think the system has some problems. I had suggested James Kirton Hutcheon as your first target. He was born in 1882 near Dyce and died in 1924 in Edinburgh. In between he went to Bolivia and became one of Butch's close friends. He had a half-brother, Enrique who was half Bolivian and half Scot. I don't know if there were other siblings or if Hutcheon followed a parent to Bolivia.

If this gets through, I think we're back on track.


"As a general rule, whenever Mr. Buck becomes aware of a request for assistance he responds promptly and generously." From Mr. Iverson.

Come on Mr. I, this is supposed to be a source of factual information.



What an unpleasant surprise to hear from you! Still trying to come up with one intelligent thought and express it with some degree of articulation, I see.
Keep trying, you're not there yet.

As long as you've turned up again, I have a question for you:

If, as you contend, Bill Long sustained a leg wound at Cortez, Colorado in the spring of 1891, isn't he excluded from being Harry Longabaugh by virture of the fact that Harry was in Canada between 1890 and 1892?

Now run along and work on your article like a good girl.

Kid Charter

Regrettably, I believe we can write off the Bulldog saloon photo, I guess it was only fitting that I would be the one to discover an unknown copy of the photo, with identifying names that match up with local men living in Rawlins, dating the photo about 1906. Although a Ryan and Charter are in the photo, there not Jack Ryan and Bert Charter. I was absolutely convinced that the photograph was authentic. In researching the photo, I found that Jack Ryan had not opened a saloon in Baggs until the summer of 1895, making the 13 year old boy identified as Bert Charter 22 and Kid Charter 20. Although, I have been told that my conclusions about the Bulldog saloon photo have not been proved, it certainly creates doubt about the authenticity of the Bulldog photo. The 13 year old boy identified as Bert Charter was undoubtedly Bert Charter's half brother, Reuben Wilbur, known as Babe Charter in Rawlins, because Bert Charter was named guardian after the death of his parents, Babe Wilbur would have been 13, in 1906. Jack Ryan's brother, Tom Ryan is also in the photo.


I've become quite interested in this story thanks to your blogging. What was the outcome of the DNA testing and what is the best book to read about Butch and Sundance. Thanks


My copy of O'Neill's "Outlaws" arrived today and I looked at the 1910 photo. I was previously aware of that particular photo. In my opinion, the photo in question isn't Butch. My opinion --stress opinion-- is based on my view that the jowels aren't "bull dog" enough to be Butch. So much for "opinion". I haven't got a single fact to back up my opinion, and I'll wager others will have an opinion different than mine.

Photo identification is, I find, a very tricky undertaking. It is difficult to get a definative identification that will hold up under scrutiny and detailed research.

Please carefully read Kid Charter's blog on identification of the purported Bulldog Saloon Photo. When the Kid says he thought one thing about a photo at one time, worked on it, and reached a different conclusion, you better believe that photo identification is one tricky business.

Thanks for putting me on to "Outlaws". It looks like I'll be up late reading it. As long as you have me losing sleep, let me repay the favor.

Get a copy of John Rolfe Burroughs "Where the Old West Sayed Young."



Welcome to the blog. I think there ought to be a warning here that goes something like: "Warning! This blog and its subject are addictive!"

For Butch Cassidy, try Richard Patterson's "Butch Cassidy: A Biography"

For Sundance try either of Donna Ernst's books, "Sundance, My Uncle" or "The Sundance Kid"

For the San Vicente controversy, try Anne Meadows "Digging Up Butch and Sundance"

I hope you'll blog back and let us know what you think.

Ms. Help

Book, I am sure Mr. Butch did not mean to leave out the book written by Mr. Parker's sister. BUTCH CASSIDY, MY BROTHER, by Lula Parker Betenson and Dora Flack. It is one of Dan Buck's favorites.

Enjoy. There are, of course, many, many more.



Ah, Bobby:

Yes, of course, your favorite, "Butch Cassidy, My Brother"! I thought Book? was looking for one or a few books just to get started, hence my reccomendations. Ms Betenson's material is covered in Patterson's text, is latter in time of publication, and contains a good deal of previously unpublished material. If you don't believe that is accurate, why don't you have someone read it to you?


Ah Butchie:

Is Marilyn getting under your skin, you seem a little "testy". Or are you just trying to make friends? Or are you trying to say, you do your "own" reading?

Ah, Ms. Bobbie

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