Comments about ‘Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?’

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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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Butch

TCB:

I'm not aware of anyone doing any work on the four code, and, aside from Siringo's Cowboy Detective description of it and that he communicated it to Elzy Lay in prison at the behest of Bert Charter and Jim Ferguson, I haven't found anything in print about it.

My previous blog about it just touched on a very few items regarding it. Here are a few more items for us to consider:

1.) According to Olin Emery's 1980 letter to True West, the famed Charter Pistol, a .38-40 single action Colt, serial no. 151179, originally was made to order for Black Jack Ketchum and delivered to El Paso, TX. After Black Jack was hung, George West Musgrave obtained the gun. Musgrave married Jano Magor, sister to Maud Magor, Bert Charter's wife. Shortly after the marriage, Musgrave, fleeing a murder warrant, gave the Colt to Bert Charter to secure a $150 debt. I have it from an unimpeachable source that the inside of the Ivory grips on the Colt are inscribed with the Roman Numeral IV. Musgrave was the fourth man to join the High Five Gang.

Continued .........

Butch

The Ivory grips were a modification with walnut grips being the original grips on the weapon. In the same letter Emery, a former Sheriff and Bert Charter's son-in-law, wrote that "Mrs. Charter and Mary McGinnis (Elzy Lay's second wife, daughter of Kirk Calvert)are the only women that knew Etta (Place) in Price, Utah."

2.) The "Butch Cassidy Tree" is one of four inscribed trees, each of which stands in perfect geographic relation to four known "Safe Havens" for the Wild Bunch in and around Robbers Roost.

3.) Piss Ant Hill in the "Musen't Touch It" is at the intersection of four branches of the Outlaw Trail. Of particular note is that one of those trails leads to the site of Jeremiah "Kid" Jackson's blacksmith shop, one leads to Charlie Gibbons' Store, one leads to Giles, and one leads to the Jeffers Ranch. Each of these sites is replicated at the Butch Cassidy Tree site.

I think you will find the Four Code, and how it was used by the Wild Bunch, a really fascinating subject.

Are you a fan of Bletchley Park?

Ms, Mous

"It isn't often we are treated to such penetrating analysis by the likes of Jerry coupled to the creative genius of Marilyn and Mike. I am positively breathless with anticipation." From our Butch.

Butch, with your obvious delight in ridiculing the unfinished efforts of Mr. Nickle, perhaps you would obtain equal joy in sharing your views on the efforts (include only factual and accurate information) that we have seen from Donna Ernst and Dan Buck. From my humble information, it seems that if Mr. Nickle is totally wrong, has he not achieved the same degree of accuracy that Mr. Buck did? I await your reply with breathless anticipation.

M M

Kerry Ross Boren

I find the comments on Donna Ernst's writing most interesting. I know Donna and I am aware that her promising career was sullied by association with self-appointed "experts" Buck and Meadows upon whom she relies too much to her detriment. I have not yet read Harvey Lay Murdock's book but I know Harvey and I knew his mother Marvel very well, and I know that what he writes is from a unique perspective and I look forward to reading his account of his grandfather. I also know Jerry Nickle and his family and I applaud his efforts and wish him the very best in his pursuits. I do not necessarily agree with Jerry's hypotheses, but I greatly respect the honorable way in which he pursues it. In the process, he is revealing some important new and fascinating history. No matter who William Long really was, he was an exceptional character whose story needs to be told. Good luck, Jerry!

Butch

Marilyn:

No.

I'd like to have Jerry's, yours, and Mike's analysis, and I also requested that of Mr. Buck and Ms/Mrs/Author Ernst/Donna Ernst, et al. I asked questions that I have a good faith belief are reasonable and that I don't believe have been asked before.

I further believe that since your involvement in July 2007 you have had more than ample time to both consider and research the issues, develop a line of argument based on analysis, and formulate clear cut opinions. That is what I am asking you to provide, and nothing more.

My concern is that none of you Nickle team members have done your homework, and what precious little you have done was the result of misguided, wholly unprofessional, and entirely amatuerish undertakings. As I blogged to TCB and others, if you are guilty of my charge, then what you will foist on the public, however inaccurate, will be belived by some percentage of the public.

Once a fantasy is put into the public consciousness, it is very much like a failed government program. It simply can not be done away with.

Continued ........

Mom's Girl

Butch, Jerry, Dan
There seems to be some doubts as to the Fort Worth Fives photograph actually being taken in Fort Worth on Oct 21 1900. Did one of you see the original photograph when you reviewed the Pinkerton files? I believe the original photograph would have the Studios identification stamp.

Butch

Examples of this, I suggest, are Larry Pointer's contention that Phillips was Parker/Cassidy or Ms Meadows (Mrs Buck?)contention that Parker/Cassidy and Longabaugh died November 6, 1908 at San Vicente, Bolivia, or Ms/Mrs/ Author Ernst's (Donna? Donna Ernst? Sundance's great, great, great neice thrice removed by marriage?)contention that Longabaugh and alias Ethel Place (Ms Place? Mrs Place? Ethel Place?)visited PA in 1901 and again in 1902.

No matter how fanciful, no matter how logically absurd these various contentions have proven to be, the fact is that they remain, and endure, if not for years then decades.

I am easily proved wrong in my charge that you are not up to the task of informed, logical, well informed debate of the facts and issues. All you have to do is give our Blog Audience a demonstration of your competency. Better that than be tagged with incompetence when you never got in the game.

Butch

Mr. Boren:

Sir, you may not remember our exchange in mid-2007 regarding the Bulldog Saloon photograph, however, I remember it very well. It is good to correspond again with you, Mr. Boren.

I have no wish to mislead you. I am not a fan of your writings. At the moment I wish to challenge your Tom Vernon article regarding Parker/Cassidy's laison with a putative "Etta Place". What solid evidence can you offer us that your meeting with Vernon took place? Do you have supportive evidence of the laison? Is there ancillary evidence? Because your alleged meeting took place in the early 1960's you, like Marilyn Grace, have had more than enough time to uncover supportive evidence. While Jerry Nickle cowers behind the billowing and ample skirts of Marilyn Grace, would you favor the Blog audience with a response?

Bye the bye, when I challenged your provenance for the Bulldog Saloon Photograph you ran like the proverbial scared rabbit --or Jerry Nickle, Marilyn Grace, or Mike Karr from a real question. Why? I would be simply devastated if you thought me a ruffian of the sort that would assault anyone, let alone beat them --to death.

Butch

Mom's Girl:

Good question. Several prints of the Fort Worth Five photograph exist in the Pinkerton files at the Library of Congress, together with isolations of the five figures.

Ms Ernst was first to give the date of the photograph as November 21, 1900, and not October as you blogged. Ms Ernst based her date on the basis of a Pinkerton Report obtained in December, 1902.

The only question as to the date of the photograph was raised by me in 2007, Marilyn, so we needn't try to divert attention from your failure to answer questions directly by creating a new issue.

Trust me. We are all truly breathless awaiting your response. You're not going to disappoint us once again, are you?

Kelly Taylor


I am the person that took Jerry and Butch to see the Butch Cassidy tree for their first. I am fifth generation Wayne County Utah native. My great grandfather George Morrell was the victim of Bill Longs pistol whipping in 1901 discussed here. I live two blocks from where that incident happened. Jerry and I are third cousins.

When we get a chance my son West and I ride horses into the Robbers Roost. Do a web search for extremeoutlawrides and you will see photos and a film of our riding into the Roost. At 43 seconds you will see Butch Cassidys corral he and the outlaws used. At 1.04 is the Butch Cassidy Tree discussed here. At 3.14 is the cabin at Robbers Roost Ranch. At 3.20 is the Butch Cassidy corral again.

Kelly Taylor

We worked many hours with these horses so they would make these jumps. When the outlaws were being chased they would make these jumps. The posses horses would not make these jumps so the boys made a successful escape. We take these horses by trailer to the Roost. When we unload them and saddle up they are rearing to go. They enjoy these rides as much as we do.
We have two horses that will jump, with rider, into water becoming completely submerged, as you will see near the end of the clip.

Anonymous

Butch,

Wasn't this Bill Long, Harry Lonabaugh project originally a Jerry Nickle, Butch Iverson production? What Happened? Were you fired? you sound like a disgruntled ex-partner.

Butch

Kid Taylor:

Take a bow. Folks, Kelly Taylor is the greatest LIVING Cowboy Detective, and unquestionably tied for first place with Charlie Siringo on the all time list, with Frank Dimaio being a very distant next best. Kid Taylor, alone, uncovered the Wayne County Court records for the trials of J. B. Buhr, Ella Moore, Blue John Griffith, and Silver Tip. The Kid has more honest history at his finger tips, out his back door, and in his saddle bag than Charles Kelly, Dan Buck, and Donna Ernst had, combined, on their best day --with help.

The Kid sits tall in the saddle, guides a tenderfoot with compassion, answers any question put to him accurately and completely, and quite often goes into the San Rafael on foot, because a "horse slows me down".

The Kid never lies, is truthful to a fault, is probably the most competent, intelligent, resourceful, kind, patient, and best looking human being the Almighty ever created.

Kid, the one question I've had for better than two years is: "With all you have going for you, how did you ever get involved with the Hollywoods?"

Mom's Girl

I am not Marilyn

Butch

Marilyn:

I want Kid Taylor to take a bow and you to take a hike. At no time did I ever take the position that Bill was Harry. Never. Try as you might to deflect the audience from your woeful inadequacies, the fact remains that, unless you can come up with one, single, well-written, well-researched, blog on a issue, you stand convicted of my charge of incompetence. Go ahead, Marilyn, prove me wrong. Write something of real worth. You too, Jerry. Stop hiding and dodging. Get in the game. Where oh where is Mike Karr? Mike had plenty to say when Jerry's oney was laying on the table and not yet picked up. Strangely, he is silent to the point of being comotose at the moment. Go ahead, you Nickle gang. Write just one thoughtful, well researched, factual, articulate blog. Just one. Don't answer my questions. Pick a topic of your own choosing. Go ahead. We're all waiting.

Butch

Mom's Girl:

There is a technical term that applies to your last blog: "Phooey!"

Annonymous #2

Butch
Why are you so obsessed with Marilyn and the Hollywoods? It appear you are a disgruntled X employ, is that true? What was your relationship with Jerry, Marilyn and the Hollywoods? Did you make confidential information Jerry had given you, about his family, public on this blog? Have you ever considered therapy?

Butch

Marilyn:

Chuckle.

Go ahead. Write just one reasonable, intelligent article. Just one. Prove me wrong. Jerry, do likewise. Don't hide. Don't dissemble. Come on now you three. Produce something. Anything. No?

Stop deflecting, dodging, trying to shift the subject from you to me, and blog just one article.
Just one. Pick one. Anything.

We're all waiting.

Ms. Mous

Butch claims, "We're all waiting."

Did he (Butch) mean to say "I" am waiting, or does he have a mous, or shall we say, a Ms. Mous(es) in his pocket? With hardly a breath left, we (I, us, them,)wait with great anticipation.

M M

Not Nickles, Grace or Karr

Butch,
We are waiting to hear what your involvement in the Bill Long project was? You bragged to several people that you were going to be a paid adviser in the filming and production of the Bill Long, Harry Longabaugh story. That suggests, that you either believed there was enough evidence to support the theory, or you were willing to be a participant in the hoax you now accuse your former associates Nickles, Grace and Karr of promoting.
What say you Butch, are you seeking revenge or the truth?

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