Comments about ‘Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?’

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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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Butch

It seems to me that we can account for these rather glaring anomolies in one of two ways:

1.) Jerry Nickle has advanced what I consider to be a fanciful and humorously outrageous theory that the Pinkerton documents are "forgeries". I think that is utter nonsense.

2.) The anomolies are intentional and are observable indicia of an intelligent plan of designed action.

I would welcome your views.

Anonymous


Butch
Thank you your clarification. Do you have an explanation why Siringo said Butch was in Alma New Mexico in probably early 1901 and why Blake Graham said he met him near Wilcox Arizona in May 1901?

Did Harry ever get a bullet wound in his leg?

Thank You

Anonymous

Butch
As I recall Jerry Nickle said the 1901 documents showing Butch in SA are forgeries not the Pinkerton memos.
Thank You

Butch

Groan! Come on, Jerry, no one than you and your Hollywoods think Butch was in Alma or Wilcox in 1901. It was fun when you played pretend, but this is just wasting time. You're simply mis-reading Siringo. Want proof? Read Page 368 of Cowboy Detective. Then take a look at the Justice Docket for Mamoth City, Juab County, Utah for January 2, 1900. There can't possibly any further confusion about where Siringo said Butch was in 1900-1901. You Marilyn and Mike need to get together and try real hard to think.

I don't know if Harry ever had a leg wound. If he did there is no report or record of it and it never made it into any description of him. For the same reasons I have no idea if Harry had an owie on his big toe, warts on his bum, or a tat on his belly button. I'm sure that is all fraught with meaning and pregnant with possibilities for you. I suppose all of us are in for another Wooden Nickle history lesson and I'll be blamed for it. Excuse me. I need adult company. Bye-Bye.

Butch

O. K. Substitute the word "documents". I'll stand by my statement. Jerry Nickle's theory is absurd. Anything else, Marilyn?

Butch

Jerry,

1.) On October 2, 1897, Harry Longabaugh was taken to H. R. Locke's studio in Deadwood, South Dakota, to have his photo taken. Harry dropped his head and closed his eyes, rendering the photo unusable.

2.) On or about November 21, 1900 Harry willingly sat for the "Fort Worth Five" photograph at John Swartz' Studio in Fort Worth.

3.) In February, 1901, Harry Longabaugh willingly posed with alias Ethel Place for the DeYoung Photo at the DeYoung Studio in New York City.

4.) In 1903/1904 Harry willingly posed for the "Picture Post Card" Photos at Cholila.

My dumb questions:

1.) What happened between 1897 and 1900 to turn Harry from being camera shy to a regular ham in front of a camera?

2.)Is there any significance to the fact that either Butch and/or alias Ethel Place were in every photo taken of Harry from 1900 forward? That Harry was never photographed solo?

3.) Can you see a wedding band on alias Ethel Place's ring finger, left hand, in the DeYoung photograph? I'm not seeing one.

As always, your thoughts are welcomed.

Butch

Jerry,

1.) According to "Dad's Guests At The Slater Store" Harry Longabaugh denied involvement in Winnemucca and slept in the stable "to save money".

2.) In February, 1901, Harry, with Alias Ethel Place and Butch Cassidy, stayed in a posh boarding house in New York City and spent money at Tiffany's, a Doctor's office, and booked passage to Buenos Aires.

3.) On or about March 23, 1901, Harry, along with alias Ethel Place deposited $12,000 in British Gold Notes in the River Platt Bank in BA.

4.) Butch, alias Ethel Place, and Harry sold their Cholila ranch for a small fortune on or about June 1, 1905.

5.) In 1907, after alias Ethel Place has disappeared, Roy Letson said Harry was "without funds, had a crust of bread in his pocket for his next meal."

Dumb question: Why is Harry poor as a church mouse before and after he is with alias Ethel Place, but flush with cash and living high on the hog when she is around?

Just A Mous

"I suppose all of us are in for another Wooden Nickle history lesson and I'll be blamed for it. Excuse me. I need adult company. Bye-Bye." Per Butch (Mr. Iverson)

"Adult company" and behaviour could be a help for you.

J A M

Butch

Marilyn:

I certainly hope so.

Randall

Why Don't You Fellars IM Text Message?
I Hear It's "Really" Fun.
The Rest Of Us Will Catch Butch And The Kid At The Kamas Flick.





tartan cowboy

seems to be all going on during my sleep time.this time difference is is a pain!
anonymous: thanks for the heads up on the books,will have to get ahold of the siringo memiors.as i said previously availability in scotland has always been poor.i can see i have alot of catching up to do.untill i do i don't have much to contribute except as Butch put it "dumb questions" i'm i'll have plenty of those!
Butch:thanks for the sagely responses.
if ,according to the pinkertons,charter was associated with those who launched the rio paraguay adventure it would be safe to assume Butch would glean a modicom of life in SA.perhaps even a visit or two?perhaps during conversations the way of life appealed to him,the social and economic structure made financial sense or maybe he thought if things went pear shaped eluding the law would be easier than dealing with the pinkertons.whatever the reason,it would seem less like a whim and more of a strategy.
as regards the missing august 10 letter to utah,do we know what it's contents were?
continued....

tartan cowboy

...continued.
is there any documentation regarding BC/SK post november 1908?
re SK unwilling to be photographed on his own and only having cash on the hip when "Ethel" was around,are you suggesting she was the driving force behind him?or that she controlled him? the letter to mrs davis does say that BC took only a third of the money from the dead uncle,so "Ethel was seemingly getting her cut.do you thin she ran off with the cash sometime after 1905.
so what about the elusive miss place?are the boarding house ledger,the steam boat docket and the records from the 12,000 gold pieces deposit the only reference we have to this woman being called "Ethel"? where does the "Etta" come from?what is her origins?i don't buy into the "soiled" dove angle.going by photographs of prostitutes from the nineteenth century they were hard drinking hard living women who looked as though they could have held their own during 12 rounds with Francis L Sullivan!whats your thoughts?

Ghosttown Bob

TCB, Butch: Entertaining dialogue and questions posed recently. As for Ethel, I am interested in hearing Butch's view on the subject. My research indicates that she was, indeed a young prostitute in Ft. Worth when the Wild Bunch boys descended on the town. Also it is my view is that a substantial amount of cash left with Ethel when Sundance took her back to San Francisco in 1905. That, and BC's & SK's penchant for high living while in South America probably accounts for the rest of it.

Post 1908 sightings of BC/SK are just that, sightings. Kind of like UFOs - - people keep reporting that they see them, but no actual written documentation that they came back.

Butch

TCB:

I agree with you completely. Ethel doesn't look anything like a 19th/20th Century Working Girl.

As for the rest? Well, what say you and I take a brief break and let the self appointed and annointed experts step to the fore?

Jerry, Marilyn, Mike, Mr. Buck, Ms Ernst, the podium is yours. Enlighten us!

Just A Mous

"Jerry, Marilyn, Mike, Mr. Buck, Ms Ernst, the podium is yours. Enlighten us!" From "Butch."

As precise as you want to be, a slight hint. I believe your "Ms Ernst", is actually the wife of Paul Ernst, a claimed relative of Mr. Longabaugh. Making her a Mrs. Ernst.

No I am not Mrs. Grace.

You are most welcome.

J A M

Butch

TCB:

I have no quarrel with your summation of the common wisdom regarding alias Ethel Place. And, that is precisely the foundation of my questions: The common place is ... well, so very common.

I am hopeful that Jerry and the Hollywoods present us all with a more Dan Brown-ish view. After all, Marilyn claimed on this blog she had "solved" the matter with pure science and that Jerry is, in fact, the grandson of Harry Longabaugh just as Jerry himself claims on his webpage.

That being the case, I think it is very reasonable to believe that Cecile B. de Nickle and his Merry Blogger Band have inside information on exactly who his Grandpa was cavorting with in SA, and what became of her.

Perhaps this can be done without damaging the pending Jerry Springer style broadcast where Jerry is "surprised" with the DNA test results. I certainly hope so. At the moment I am just all aflutter with anticipation. Be still my beating heart!

It isn't often we are treated to such penetrating analysis by the likes of Jerry coupled to the creative genius of Marilyn and Mike. I am positively breathless with anticipation.

Butch

J A M:

My apologies. I meant no disrespect. I was under the impression --apparently mistaken -- that the designation "Ms" was to be properly applied to both married and single females on the grounds that in modern times a woman's marital status ought not be a consideration in determining worth, i. e. a woman ought not to be defined by any reference to a husband or lack thereof. My belief --again apparently mistaken -- is that "Ms" is a replacement for, or proper substitution of "Mrs." and "Miss".

I have no doubt that you are a far better student of Emily Post than I am.

Would you be so kind as to tell me how this relates to the subject of this blog? Do you reccomend that we refer henceforth to Mrs Place, Mrs Porter, Mrs DuFran, and Mrs Curry?

I expect a good many gentlemen contributors to this blog would benefit enormously from your genteel admonitions and corrections.

What say you, TCB? What is the custom of the Scots and in Merry Olde?

tartan cowboy

Butch: re the deyoung photograph, "looks more like an engagement ring on "Ethels'" finger.
Re the "miss,mrs" matter:our culture/society has been taken over by something akin to a black ops sortie,it's called political correctness!though commendable in redefining equal opportunities and restoring a balance to the disadvantaged it can be,and often is, quite divisive.our ladies over here can be addressed ss they see fit and we respect that.

Butch

TCB:

Thanks for your observations and information. I don't feel qualified to wade through issues of political correctness, a subject which I find mystifying and impenetrable. Therefore, if it is all right with the Bloggers on this site, may I simply be known as an uncultured, uncivilized, insensitive, uneducated, possibly chauvenistic bore who gives offense to everyone without regard to gender? That may excuse my bad behavior and help us get back on track in discussing and debating the issues raised on this site. Mea culpa.

tartan cowboy

Butch:
would be very intrested in hearing your comments and about your findings re the four code.
has anyone else out there in bloggsville got any info/comments on this.
Ancient Mariner,you had some comments on this earlier, be glad of your input.

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