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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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Butch

Marilyn, you're dead wrong. I've never once posted under "Anonymous" and leave that boring name exclusively to you.

Tartn Cowboy: A good many of us are delighted to have you with us and get a Tartan perspective on history.

Regarding your statement that "every theory to the non historian ... sounds plausible": No matter how absurd a theory, no matter how preposterous what passes as "proof" to support a theory, some given number of people will believe it. What ever the number of supporters, they constitute another group whose minds must be changed if truth is to win out in the end. Sadly, later "experts" and authors will either quote or cite to the Charlatan in print and if really egregious errors become "entrenched" it is through this process.

I'd like to point out that there is a great difference between having an open mind such as yours and having a mind incapable of discerning obvious falsehood, as a very small group of people do.

Rather than damage our precious First Amendment rights with an attempt at prior censurship, we who are serious, seek to expose nonsense in advance of distribution and disassociate ourselves from it.

Continued ........

Butch

For those of us who contend that both Butch and Sundance survived South America, the preposterous and fanciful pose great danger because we fear that Mr Buck, as well as his two supporters, might tar us with the same brush applied to the Charlatans. Hence, we expose the falacious while we disassociate ourselves from it, and, at the same time encoure distribution of everyone's books or films.

Blogs such as this one help some of us sharpen our arguments by putting them forth for public debate. During the course of that debate we all benefit because very good minds on both sides of the primary issue of contetion add immeasurable amounts of factual context, and that dramatically increases our knowledge base.

When Marilyn and Jerry attempt to stiffle debate on any issue, fail to directly answer a question put forward, or put forward absurdities designed to deflect attention from insurrmountable obstacles they have, they do not advance the cause of knowledge.

Discerning and open minds deeply involved in the debates on this blog benefit us all.

Again, welcome Tartan Cowboy, a very hearty welcome!

Ancient Mariner

Tartan Cowboy:

The idea of an author saying "Most of what follows is true," is a good one. However,that statement would be valid only for a small fraction of books published on the subject. For the vast majority of the material out in public as well as that yet to come, I think a more accurate disclaimer would be: "A miniscule part of the following might be true."

tartan cowboy

butch; your comments are very insightful into the motives and psyche of a certain group who ride the historical plains.i know you have been reluctant to discuss your book,but i would look forward very much to reading it.any publish date as yet? thank you very much for your warm welcome,first time i,ve done anything like this and know i have not even scratched the surface on reading material.availability here in scotland is poor the internet should take care of that. any views on the photo in the eamonn oneill book outlaws?

Butch

Tartan Cowboy:

I just now managed to purchase a copy of "Outlaws" by Eamon O'Neill. Shipping may take a few days, but if you still want my opinion on the photograph when the book arrives, I'll be more than happy to give it to you.

As far as discussing books in the works, you might have me confused with Jerry. If I'm certain of my position and feel I've investigated the matter completely I don't mind a bit putting the material out in public for discussion. Indeed, I prefer to do that.

The doctor's mistakes we bury,
The lawyer's mistakes we hang,
The journalist's mistakes we print.

Its worse, of course, if you write a book shot full of errors because unlike a journalist who can print a correction the next day, an author's error has eternal life.

Shelly's Three Keys To Immortality:

Father a son.
Plant a tree,
Write a book.

In my opinion it is much better to throw one's work out for public debate than closeting yourself with your editor and being forced to live with the consequences for eternity.

All Hail Bobby Burns!

Butch

Tartan Cowboy:

Please let me know if you would be offended if I addressed you as "TCB". We Yanks have a tendency toward informality and enough rough edges to frost the tails on a diplomat's coat at the Court of St. James. We mean no offense. We're merely not understood by those across the pond.

True, our lesser angels, Buck, Ernst, and Patterson by default, Jerry, Amazin' Grace and Mad Mike, ply a trade of deception and lies by omission, commission and synthesis, never-the-less, there remains a core of unbridled optimists who persevere despite the odds.

Tell me Sir, do you know either the four code or the Keys to Rebecca? Let me know and we shall talk privately.

Ancient Mariner

My Boys.

Neither of you have an inkling how long I have waited for your arrival. The four code is, quite naturally, 3-6-4. The Keys to Rebecca await those who chance to wander.

Barbarella

I know for a fact that we're all going to get something very special on this blog very soon. Amazin Grace, Mad Mike, and Jerry Nickle are really going to hate it. Stay in touch.

tartan cowboy

butch; last two posts have not made it.will see if this gets on then get back to you.

tartan cowboy

barbarella:sounds exciting,is this news with reference to mr long?when can we expect it and by whom?
butch:hoping for third time lucky.i have no objection whatsoever being addressed as tcb.look forward to your views on photo.with reference to four code/the keys to rebecca.i'm flummoxed!the only things i can think of off the top of my head is
four code pertaining to the human gene/dna,and if memory serves,a group in mexico conserving knowledge/tradition.re rebecca,the only thing i can think is the novel.all of the aforementioned concern seeking truths,intrigueand revealing secrets.am i to believe pandoras box is about to be opened?sounds as though ancient mariner is in the loop.so what is your thoughts on what happened to bc/sk?i know you don't believe it was henry long.what about the elusive miss place?
cheers tcb.

Butch

TCB:

There is always a danger when p[osing that others --"in the loop" as you said --jump ahead and try to goad one into making premature statements. Never-the-less, I'll do the best job I can, at this point, of demonstrating what Barbarella and Ancient Mariner might have been discussing.

I'll turn to "Detective Dimaio's Notebook Page With Comment on Sundance Kid, 1900", Container 93, Folio 4, Five Pages, Pinkerton National Detective Agency Records, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress, Washington, D. C.

On Page 3, sequentially, at the top of notebook Page 3, Dimaio wrote: "Report J. T. C. apr 3/1902" and then went on to note:"Its believed was (past tense) in Hospital Past Summer 1901 (circled in the original)in Buffalo NY pistol shot wound (location not specified)he said he got in extreme West...."

This is the origin of what Ms Ernst and Mr Buck claim to be a "Pinkerton Report" regarding treatment at the Pierce Medical Clinic in Buffalo.

I looked carefully through the records and was not able to find J. T. C.'s original report. That does not mean it is not there.

Continued ........

Butch

It merely means that I could not find it. If in fact the original report does not exist, then, Mr Buck and Ms Ernst have mischaracterized a notebook reference to report as being a "Pinkerton Report".

There is more.

The Piece facilities in Buffalo were two in number. The medical clinic was located at 80 West Seneca Street while the Pierce Invalid's Hotel was located 9 1/2 blocks away at 653-655 Main Street. The Hotel catered not only to patients at the clinic but to travelers not using the services of the clinic. On Page 5 of the material there exists what purports to be a copy of the registration of "Ethel Place (next line) H. A. Place", however judging from the paper size and quality this appears to be a tracing from the hotel registry. If so, then what we have is evidence of Longabaugh and alias Ethel Place at the Hotel but not necessarily at the clinic.

Because Dimaio wrote in the past tense there is a strong indication that the notation referencing the "report" constitutes a Pinkerton "Mail Cover" on Samanna Longabaugh Hallman.

Continued ......

TM

For all of us "Less informed". Could someone please take a momment and reveal the names of our bloggers? For those that have joined in late and to better follow the postings; a listing of the cast of characters would be most appreciated. It might also me helpful if when identified we know for sure who is in whose camp and those that have not taken a side as yet. A simple, "J" for Jerry and or a "B" for Buck after the revealing should do nicely I think.

Butch

A "Mail Cover" was a standard clandestine operation in which a postal employee --in this case at either the Montclair or Philadelphia Post Office -- was employed to steam open Hallman mail, read the contents and forward a record of it to the closest Pinkerton Regional Office -- Philadelphia in this case.

We know that Longabaugh and alias Ethel Place boarded S. S. Soldier Prince in Buenos Aires on March 3, 1902 and arrived in New York City on April 3, 1902. Pinkerton, New York Office, Cable Traffic Log, Frank P. Dimaio, Buenos Aires, Argentina, 1902, Page 1 of 2, Container 87, Folio 2; Report of Frank P. Dimaio, September 17, 1941, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Page 2 of 3, Container 89, Folio 13; Pinkerton Report, July 29, 1902, New York Office, Criminal History Number 711, Harry Longabaugh et. al, Cross Index File Criminal History George Parker, Container 93, Folio 4, Pinkerton National Detective Agency Records, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress, Washington D. C.

TM

Let me the first:
TM= Tom Mason,(Just someone interested in western lore) "waiting for DNA results" Leaning towards "J". The older photo of long with wife sure resembles all the photo's I've seen of Longabaugh. As for all the banter back and forth about where Longabaugh was and when... does not come across as hard or indisputable evidence and open for some debate and or questioning. Having said that I certainly appreciate the efforts, time and expense that both sides have made and continue to make to state their case.

Butch

Thus, on the very day that Longabaugh and alias Place arrived in New York, Pinkerton received a report that Samanna received a letter from her brother in which he said that he had a pistol shot wound received in the west treated at the Pierce facility in Buffalo.

Allowing for mailing time from Buenos Aires to NYC and then transit to Philadelphia and subsequent transit to Montclair, I concluded that Samanna's letter was mailed from BA on or about February 25, 1902. If true, Longabaugh mailed his letter a week prior to his departure. And, if that is true, then we have Longabaugh setting the Pinkerton Hounds on his trail in the U.S. well in advance of his leaving the safety of South America and arriving in NYC a relatively short distance from the Pinkerton NYC office. Is that rational? If you were an escaping felon who had fled to SA to avoid prosecution, would you write a letter putting detectives on your trail? Before you arrived back in the U. S.?

But there is more.

SLC gal

TM - just do what I do, read the article, look at the photos and make your own comparisons. To me it doesn't look like rocket science, the resemblance is striking.

Butch

Dimaio's notebook Page 3 also says:

1.) Longabaugh "Left PA 16 years ago" and;

2.) "wrote 2 years ago to his sister Sammana who is Mrs O. J. Hallman Montclair PA may be writing him now."

If the April 3, 1902 mailcover resulted in a report that Longabaugh left PA 16 years previously --1886 - then Longabaugh did not spend 1882-1886 with his cousins in SW Colorado, but arrived in the west in eastern Wyoming near Lusk as detailed in Ms Ernst's new book.

Then too, if Longabaugh left PA in 1886, what are we to make of Ms Ernst's contention that he visited his PA relatives in January, 1901, told them he had a leg wound, and then ran off to the Pierce Clinic to have it treated. If that were true, why would he write a letter to his sister saying, once again, that he had an unspecified wound received in the west and had (past tense)it treated in Buffalo? He wouldn't, of course, if he had in fact visited his sister in January, 1901, and said the very same thing.

Continued .....

Butch

If, on the other hand, we view Longabaugh's letter as a first telling of his leg wound and subsequent treatment in Buffalo, and discount a January 1901 visit to Samanna as never having taken place except in the mind of Ms Ernst, the letter makes sense.

The question I have for you TCB is really quite simple. Would you like further discussion of the issue of Frank Dimaio's notebook pages? Because you have an open mind, are you led toward a robust discussion and debate regarding the issue, or, are you content with the characterization of it put forward by "experts" and author's?

My question is an honest one. You are a member of the reading public and you have an interest in Western History. I would like to put my investigation and analysis into print in such a way and using such methodology as people with discerning and open minds find interesting, helpful, and informative.

It is my opinion that if we all look carefully at the whole body of evidence, discuss it and debate it, we shall all benefit enormously from the exercise. What say you, my Tartan friend?

tartan cowboy

tm:i'm on the side of truth.
butch:
apologies was not my intention to goad you into disclosures prematurely.there seems very much to be inconsistencies in reports.i'm sure sundance would be well aware of the pinkertons' unethical and criminal procedures during investigations.zerelda samuel would attest to that.it's quite probable that bc/sk were so full of paranoia that every stranger would be seen as a potential threat so therfor why announce in advance your arrival to the very people you've traveled "thousands" of miles to avoid?
i would enjoy further discussion on the material available.i whole heartidly agree that all info has to be put forward and not just selected citations to enhance or move someones own subjective work forward in a manner akin to fitting square pegs into round holes!what print medium would your findings be on?

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