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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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Ghosttown Bob

The Denver Office sent Charlie Siringo, one of their undercover agents into Utah in the fall of 1900 tracking the Tipton/Wilcox robbers. He lost their trail during the winter of 1900/1901near Bluff, Utah. He was then sent to Alma, New Mexico early in 1901 since they thought the crooks may have been making their way there as money from the Wilcox robbery had been passed in the Alma area the year previous. Before being pulled from the hunt in New Mexico and sent north, Siringo apparently talked to people who claimed that Jim Lowe (an alias of Parkers) was still in the area.

Ghosttown Bob

As a result of Siringo's investigation the Denver Office issued criminal histories (circulars) on Parker and Longabaugh in 1902 detailing the information they had from Siringo and other informants. I am not sure of the number of the Parker history, but an accomaning one on Longabaugh was listed as "Denver Criminal History No. 1961" and was dated Mar 1 1902. The Parker history recounts what Siringo was told by Blake Graham while in while on a stage traveling to Silver City, New Mexico, and from others that Jim Lowe was still in the area. The Longabaugh history relates information recieved from a correspondant that Longabaugh was in Price and Vernal in July of 1901.

Ghosttown Bob

At the same time of the Denver office's investigations, an agent from Philidelphia was making inquiries in Pennsylvania in Longabaugh's home town, which included going through the Longabaugh families mail (a federal offense) concerning Harry Longabaugh's whereabouts. His handwritten report included background on Harry and his family, visits to family members and this statement: "Its believed was in Hospital last Summer 1901 in Buffalo NY . . . " This is the oft mentioned April 3, 1902 report.

These three histories/reports have been used by Jerry and other Long/Longabaugh supporters to claim that Parker and Longabaugh were in the Western U.S. until 1902.

SLC gal

Good night, You all are still going back and forth on this? D News needs to print a followup!

Anonymous

Jerry, I am just a casual observer - but I notice you state "It takes 266 days from conception to birth" and then follow up with an argument that it could not be because of a one week gap between the contrived date of conception and the date Harry was suppose to be in Slater.

Ever study any real Biology? - reproductive cycles are averages and not pinned down to exact number of days. A one week deviation is totally plausible. This is not viable evidence at all.

Anonymous

Butch Cassidy didn't die in South America - those who live in the small towns around where he grew up know that. His family confessed to those they knew well enough that Butch came back home, and I have a great-uncle who can point to the canyon in Southern Utah where he was quietly buried.

Hitch

Ghosttown Bob:
I would like to thank you for your answer to my question. I believe you are convincing, and I thank you for your effort in making a factual response. Quite frankly, I am appalled at Marilyn Grace a/k/a Anonymous, and her ham handed attempts at stifling debate on issues I, and others, find of interest.

If Ms. Grace is successful with her film, in spite of her all too obvious inadequacies, I expect it will be because she is awarded the FDR Tabernacle Award.

Thanks again for responding to my question.

Hitch

Kid Montana

A-Ninny-Mouse:

If you had been paying attention --beyond your ability regarding an attention span --you would have noticed that after the 1909 Pinkerton report was introduced on this blog, no one --except you --ever thought that Butch Cassidy and Harry Longabaugh didn't return from South America.

Please do try and keep up with the discussion. Really! You're such a complete bore!

Anonymous

Would you forgive Mrs. Grace if she just wrote a book about her trip (travels) to Utah? As others have done.

Ghosttown Bob

(The following paragraph should be inserted between the 1:34 and 1:36 pm May 21st posts. )

Now the source of this problem comes from the files of the Pinkerton National Detective Agency. The Pinkertons, as they were known were employed by several of the railroad companies to track down the bands of railroad thieves, of which the Wild Bunch was one, and eliminate or bring them to justice. Their investigations and pursuit of were widespread involving many different regional Pinkerton offices, many of which did not necessarily coordinate with each other. The Denver Office led the hunt in the West for the Wilcox and Tipton train robbers, and the Winnimucca Bank robbery, all of which were attributed to various members of the Wild Bunch.

Hitch

Ghosttown Bob:

I believe your most recent post is of great value for those of us interested in the Wild Bunch. In the same vein, I would like to add that reports from the New York, Philadelphia, and Chicago offices were mixed into the reports from the Denver office. Then too, Argentine, Chilean, Bolivian government officials and law enforcement officers added their reports and information.

If we consider that the Wild Bunch, or members of it, operated from circa 1885 through circa 1920 on two continents, I find it absolutely incredible that we know as much as we do about them. I also believe that all of us should compliment every author for their attempts to unravel the story.

You've added a lot to our understanding of the Wild Bunch. Thank you.

Ghosttown Bob

Thanks Hitch for the nice comment. Here's more:

Around this same time Longabaugh apparently wrote a friend, presumably David Gillespie of the Little Snake River Valley, and enclosed a picture of himself and a woman he identified as his wife, whom he said, he had met previously in Texas. The letter and picture were passed on to the Pinkerton agency, again apparently by Gillespie. The picture was traced back to New York where the New York office undertook an investigation. The New York offices investigation resulted in their issuing their own Criminal History on Longabaugh dated July 29, 1902.

Ghosttown Bob

The New York Criminal History detailed what the New York office was able to ascertain about the photograph and Longabaugh, Parkers, and Places activities in New York. Among the information they found were that the photo was taken at the DeYoung Studio in New York City, that during Feb. 1901 under the name of Harry E. Place he and Ethel whom was believed to be his wife, lived at the boarding house of a Mrs. Taylor, that Longabaugh was treated at the Pierce Medical Institute in Buffalo, New York, and again by a Dr. Weinstein in New York City, and that they left for Argentina on Feb. 20, 1901, returned to New York on board the steamship Soldier Prince 3 April 1902, and lastly that George Parker under the name of Ryan was also with Longabaugh and Place in New York, sailed with them to Argentina, but did not return with then in 1902.

Ghosttown Bob

They were later able to get a description from hospital officials of Longabaugh and Place, identified as Harry A Place and Mrs. Harry A. Place from treatments they received in May of 1902. This description appeared on all of the Pinkertons wanted circulars of Parker and Longabaugh, and Place for the next few years.

Ghosttown Bob

Lastly, following up on the New York information, the Pinkerton Agency through one of their operatives in Rio de Janeiro, Frank Diamaio, who traveled to Buenos Aires in March of 1903, found evidence of Parker, Longabaugh and Place in Argentine records. In May, 1903 Diamaio wrote a handwritten report which included the following: Record of Longabaugh and Place sailing to the U.S. in March 1902 aboard the S.S. Soldier Prince. Documents in the Colonial Land Department dated 2 April 1902 that Place & Ryan had settled of four square leagues of land near Cholilo. That Harry A Place opened an account with the London $ River Plate Bank March 23 1901. On May 6, 1902 they cashed a check for $3,546, dated April 2, 1902, made by one, signed by another. This was dated when Longabaugh was enroute to New York. That Longabaugh and Place arrived back in Argentina Aug 9, 1902 aboard the Honorius and that they were listed as purser and stewardess on the ship.

Ghosttown Bob

These three reports/histories are the ones that those who follow the conventional wisdom use to show that Parker, Longabaugh and Place were in New York in early 1901, and left for Argentina of Feb. 20th, 1901. Notice that all six of these documents cover roughly the same time period, early 1901 through mid 1902. Since none of these portions of the Pinkerton agency were really coordinating with each other, no wonder the Agency as a whole was confused for a time, including William A. Pinkerton himself.

Ghosttown Bob

The problem here is which set of reports, documents, histories are the most credible, and are based on the most factual information that can be verified from outside sources. One set, principally from the Denver office, claims that Longabaugh and Parker were in New Mexico, Utah, or Wyoming in 1901 1902, while the New York office, supplemented by the Diamaio report claimed that they had been in New York, then Argentina during this same time period. If you believe the Denver office reports, then Longabaugh could have been Bill Long who then, could have been in Fremont, Utah beating up on George Morrell in Oct of 1901. But you have to disregard the New York reports completely. Now if you believe the New York and Dimaio reports, then Longabaugh could not possibly have been in Fremont head banging with George Morrell, now way, no how.

GORDON

To Ghosttown Bob-----the facts and data you have amazes me----you should put this all in a book

Cheyenne

If the truth about Butch and Sundance was ever found out how boring it would be. After all what would people have to speculate about. Let it rest.

Denver

Cheyenne:

Unless you know "the truth about Butch and Sundance" how do you know it would be boring? The only people on this blog who claim to know "the truth" are Marilyn Grace and Jerry Nickle and possibly Mike Karr. Our intrepid Hollywoods make the claim that truth consists of Bill Long being Harry Longabaugh, that 1901 Pinkerton reports are "forgeries", that Luzernia got pregnant without Bill Long being present (immaculate conception?)and that we all ought to drop further inquiry into their preposterous story.

Cheyenne, that is anything but boring. Hilarious? Yes! Outrageous? Yes! Slapstick History? Yes! Serial Intellectual Pratfalls? Oh, Yes! But never boring. No, not boring at all!

If you really think that the Bill Long story as told by Marilyn, Mike, and Jerry is boring, then I would love to know your opinion of Harry Reed. Care to share?

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