Comments about ‘Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?’

Return to article »

Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

Comments
  • Oldest first
  • Newest first
  • Most recommended
Dora du Fran

Kid Montana:

I think we should all follow Mark Lane's admonition to not "Rush To Judgment".

I also think we should lock Butch and Jerry in the back room of the Slick Rock and not let them out until they come up with the solution.

Not Butch

Butch- Thanks for the information and while not "beyond a reasonable doubt" it still makes a lot of sense. We rarely get "BARD" do we? Concerning the Horn letter to Harris. There are a lot of old timers in Johnson Co. who disbelieve this. They will tell you that Speck and Horn were freindly. Horn certainly gets the location of Currie incorrect after Wilcox. I seriously doubt that Harvey Rae (Ray) was involved in the Wilcox robbery and he certainly was not one of the three that came north. There is also good evidence that the three did not go to Billy Hill's place on Red Fork to get remounted but in fact were remounted at John Nolen's in Kaycee, Wyoming.

Jerry Nickle

We have just read some very compelling evidence that Alonzo was not one of the men in the Deadwood Jail. And what is the explanation for Billy Smith not recognizing the prisoner if he was Alonzo? The two men that went to Deadwood could not identify the prisoner because there were not given the chance. Just because they were not given the opportunity does not mean the prisoner was defiantly Alonzo
Here is another possibly; It takes 266 days from conception to birth. This means Luzernia became pregnant June 20, 1897 one week before Harry Alonzo was in Slater. Gillespie did not say exactly where he was on the 20. He could have been in Fremont and be considered an employee of Reader that just took some time off.

Butch

Jerry:

You were sailing along fine up to the 266 days for conception thing. Remember, Harry is a bronc stomper so he's real busy with the ramuda after spring round-up. No, Harry was with Reader from January through August 1, 1897. Which ever Harry it was didn't leave for a week or two of slap and tickle with Luzernia. That job belonged to Bill Long, an entirely different person than the Reader employed Harry.

So, send the Hollywoods on your payroll off to finish the comedy film. You need to get busy on your book. The book requires notes. Go to Page 13, third full paragraph, second sentence of the John F. Gooldy "Early Day History" document. Got it? That's your argument. That is the note for your argument. Now add Governor Wells letter and the Jones Brothers language. Bill can't be in two places at once. Neither can Harry.

I read Marilyn's blog of Feb 19. If you "solved" the mystery it must have been the same way Oliver Stone "solved" the JFK assassination. You'll never get away with that kind of thing in print.

Butch

Jerry:

Punch up the "two" who went to help Frank Jones/Harry Longabaugh figure argument. Why did they rescue Thomas Jones, Frank Jones, and William C. Moore, and not help Tom O'Day and Walt Punteney? There is a very good reason and you should give it.

Finally, I believe you ought to address the Rawlins/Peoples Voice article head on.

No, don't look at your "Creative Executive Producer". Who ever heard of a "Creative Executive Producer" involved in a cold history case? Jerry, you don't create history --you uncover it and discover it by investigating it. "Creative Executive Producer"? What were you thinking of?

Butch

Jerry:

On May 15, 1901, Pinkertons issued Reward Circular Number 1 for the Winnemucca Bank robbery. The Cicular says:" On June 28, 1897, under the name of Frank Jones, Longbaugh (sic) participated with Harvey Logan, alias Curry, and Tom O'Day and Walter Putney (sic) in the Belle Fourche (S. Dak.) bank robbery. All were arrested, but Longbaugh (sic) and Harvey Logan escaped from jail at Deadwood, October 31, 1897."

On February 3, 1902, Pinkerton Reward Circular Number 2 was issued and used the exact same language as quoted above regarding the Belle Fourche robbery.

On November 14, 1904, Pinkerton Reward Circular Number 3 was issued and contained the exact language relative to Belle Fourche as Circulars 1 & 2.

Between 1901 and 1904 Pinkerton Detectives were all over the Little Snake and were well aware of the Gillespie letter contention that Harry Longabaugh was at the Reader ranch at the time of the robbery. If we believe the "experts" David Gillespie was the source of the DeYong photograph.

Isn't this awfully good evidence that Harry Longabaugh/Longbaugh/Jones/Roberts/et al was different people at different times and different places? Was Bill Long one of them?

Jerry Nickle


Page 13 of Gooldys manuscript does not say when he arrived in the Valley just when he left. He worked for other people besides Reader that winter and spring. That winter he and Burt Charter went to the mouth of the Big Hole tending the stockmans horses. That season he worked for William Crawford and may have worked for the Wrens as well so Gillespie was wrong when he said he had worked for Reader up until the middle of July. He may have left the Valley periodically. He and Burt Charter definitely left the valley and went to the mouth of the Big Hole. He and Charter may have gone to Fort Duchesne where Charters uncle was Quarter Master. Fort Duchesne is just up the road from Fremont. When did he leave one employer and sign with another one? Did he go to Fremont between employers? No one can answer these questions.
cont...

Jerry Nickle

This was the last season he ever worked in the Valley or as a bronc buster. Did he break his nose here (which caused the Catarrh) and return home to Fremont to recuperate and then return for a visit from June 27 through Aug 1? When you are sick and take sick leave are you still considered an employee of the same person?
Please dont read things into these manuscripts that are not there and ignore evidence that weakens your argument. Dan Buck did this with the Mrs. Taylor Pinkerton memo and it disappoints me to see you do the same thing
The Hollywoods and I are having a lot fun, and pains me to think you are not with us. Remember I invited you to join us.

Butch

Jerry,

Fair enough. However, you have to distinguish between the documents under discussion. If, as I thought, we were discussing the October 12, 1897, Gillespie letter than what I wrote is valid as applied to the case -- provided Gillespie's unnamed subject is Harry Longabaugh.

If you want to relate Helen Morgan's Three Volume set to the Gillespie letter, that's fine, we can do that, just let everyone know what you're talking about.

None of the documents or books in print so far have Bill Long as Harry. As far as "reading" something into documents, what about you and Marilyn having Bill/Harry impregnate Luzernia on June 20, 1897, make it to the Reader Ranch by June 28, 1897, and then ....?

But enough. It wouldn't be fair of me to state your argument. I leave that to you. Therefore, please allow me ask a question.

In your opinion, based on your reading of the relevant documents, where was Bill Long on June 28, 1897?

Butch

Jerry,

You did indeed invite me to join you. Your blog this date is a perfect example of why I declined your invitation.

Jerry Nickle

According to Gillespie Alonzo was up at Al Readers on June 28, 1897.

Anonymous

"You did indeed invite me to join you. Your blog this date is a perfect example of why I declined your invitation."

Butch. Don't you think it would have shown a little more class to "decline" Jerry's invitation in a more private manner! You have made it somewhat clear that you don't agree with his idea.

Jerry. Ask someone else.

Jerry Nickle

Annonymous.
I made the issue public and Butch answered publicly. he did the right thing.

Ghosttown Bob

Jerry: you wrote "This was the last season he ever worked in the Valley or as a bronc buster. Did he break his nose here (which caused the Catarrh) and return home to Fremont to recuperate. . ."

If this is true, then Bill Long's standing picture showing his broken nose would have to have been taken between Aug 1897 and mid 1900. Is this when you say this picture was taken???

Ghosttown Bob

Jerry: you wrote: "Fort Duchesne is just up the road from Fremont"

I really don't consider the Fort Duchesne/Roosevelt area just up the road from Fremont. It is close to 170 miles (give or take a few). It is about half way between the Little Snake River and Fremont. Fremont is a hard three day ride from Ft. Duchesne, or a six day round trip.

Ghosttown Bob

Jerry, Gillespie's letter does not name Harry Alonzo as his friend. But it does explicitly imply that his friend was working for Al Reader during the summer of 1897. His use of the language "who worked for Al Reader up till the middle of July" is a direct implication that his friend was working for Al Reader before that time, the general tone being that of several weeks or months before that time. The correlation is that If I said that I worked for the Air Force up until the middle of July, I mean that I was working for the Air Force before July for a duration longer than a few weeks.

Ghosttown Bob

The People's Voice article corroborates the Gillespie letter and defines who the "friend" was. It says: "Alonzo wrote down to some friends who had previously known him to come up and identify him" It then names E Lahey and J. Galloway as those who came to Pierre to identify him. Gillespie goes on to state that "when arrested he . . . didn't give has right name as he didn't want it to get to the papers. He and his lawyer both wrote telling how the matter stood and wanted me and one or two others to go there and prove that he was on Snake River at the time of the bank hold up. . . Two left here last night. . . "

This could not be clearer.

Hitch

Ghosttown Bob:

I think your argument about Harry Longabaugh in regard to the Gillespie letter is persuasive, and therefore, I think that Bill Long can not possibly be Longabaugh.

Will you discuss Bill Long being in Loa in 1901 in an altercation with Morrell as being more proof that Long is not Longabaugh. I don't understand why Long's presence in Loa in 1901 doesn't settle the matter. Thanks.

Buck Critic

The Loa 1901 altercation absolutely settles it, for those that choose to ignore the Pinkerton files. Your Welcome

Ghosttown Bob

Hitch: You bring up a good question concerning Bill Long and the 1901 altercation with his wifes ex brother-in-law George Morrell. The short answer is that that it should settle the question of Bill Long being Harry Longabaugh. According to the conventional wisdom, ie. Buck, Meadows, Patterson, and others, Butch and Sundance (Longabaugh and Parker) were in South America at the time of the fight. However, Jerry and others, as we have seen on this board, have challenged this assertion, claiming that both Longabaugh and Parker were still in the Western U. S. at this time, with Harry Longabaugh, posing as Bill Long, being home with his wife and kids during October 1901 in time to confront George Morrell on October 21st. Jerry claims that Parker and Longabaugh and Etta Place did not leave for South America until 1902.

to comment

DeseretNews.com encourages a civil dialogue among its readers. We welcome your thoughtful comments.
About comments