Comments about ‘Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?’

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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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Butch and Cherokee

Kid Norski is Butch Iverson
Cherokee Kate is Butch's wife
Kid Nickle is Jerry Nickle
Belle Nickle is Jerry's wife

The Nickle family and the Iversons are close friends. Dora du Fran is an outbounder who gave away a secret that she ought not to have revealed. Never-the-less, Jerry and Butch, with separate books comming out, actually do fight, argue, and then kiss and make up. Both the Cherokee and Belle are long suffering wives who watch their men, roll their eyes to the heavens, and then offer prayers
on behalf of their men.

Cherokee Kate

Shoshoni,

The five rivers and the Bear's Tooth are true. The five rivers wedded to the Bear's Tooth are the Shakopee of the Dakota.

Anonymous

It's Gooldy not Gouldy. The Gillespie responce "No Dave, that isn't true." was made well before the Winnemucca robbery.

Jerry Nickle

Butch Iversons Book will trump everything else that has been published. He will have the most compressive research published to date. I can hardly wait to read it.
We disagree on a few things, we fight and I swear I will not to speak to him again and then we kiss and make up. I am drawn like a moth to fire.
After this is finished we are going to cerebrate by shooting up the Red Dog Saloon in old Giles town. Cherokee Kate and Belle Nickle will be there, and I hope a few other people will be there too.

Ghosttown Bob

I hope everyone had a wonderful Mother's Day weekend.
Butch/Lutefisk: Sorry I started the ball rolling on this identity thing, which resulted in getting your cover blown. I was just funnin around. Ms Robison has been trying to guess who I am for months.

Ghosttown Bob

Butch/Lutefisk: You asked the question concerning David Gillespie's 12 October 1897 letter: "Because Ms Ernst, in her new book, acknowledges that the Gillespie letter of October 12, 1897, is depositive of the issue as to Harry Longabaugh's involvement in the Belle Fourche robbery, are we all now at the point where Bill Long is excluded, ipso invedio, as being the same person as Harry Longabaugh?

To answer your question, yes it does. For Evinda to have been William Henry Long's daughter, he would have had to have been in Fremont around June 29th. Gillespie's letter clearly states his friend, whom he does not name, was working for Al Reader up until the middle of July. abd that he was in Slater on June 27th and the Reader Ranch on the 28th. He also implies that he was in the neighborhood until Aug. 1st.

Now Gillespie in the letter did not name who his friend was. The other records you have previously names all identify him as either Harry Alonzo, Harry Longabaugh, or both. To add to you impressive list you may also want to include:

Ghosttown Bob

(Continued): The Buffalo "Peoples Voice" 30 Oct 1897 issue, and the "Rawlins Journal" from which the "Peoples Voice" story was taken which both name Harry Alonzo as the person arrested for the Belle Fourche Robbery but who was sending to the Slater/Baggs area for witnesses to vouch that he was in Slater at the time of the robbery.

Now unless someone can prove that Harry Alonzo was not Harry Longabaugh, this is proof that Harry Longabaugh and William Henry Long are not one and the same.

Now I suspect that all this is leading to your announcement of who you think Long is.

Butch

Ghosttown Bob:

No harm, no foul. I expect about 99.9% of the players on this blog all know who each other are. The wonderful thing about this blog is that there is an incredible amount of solid, published evidence on it that has not yet found its way into either one of Ms Ernst's books, or anything Ms Meadows or Mr. Buck have published. This is a win/win blog for all of us.

If you're anticipating an announcement from me as to who I think Bill Long is, I'm afraid I'm going to disapoint you. The reason is quite simple. Kid Nickle and I are still arguing that one. I'm not about to do that while the jury is still out. Allow me to use an example. Consider the issue of hight.

1.) Dr McCullough found Bill Long, at death, in 1936 to be 5' 8" tall.

2.) The only definative height measurement of Harry Longabaugh was at his age 20 in 1887 when he was incarcerated at Sundance, Wyoming.

Continued ...........

Butch

3.) It is common knowledge that we all "shrink" a bit as we age. The "shrink with age factor" can be exacerbated by the type of life we individually lead.

4.) Both Bill Long and Harry Longabaugh were acknowledged Bronc Stompers and made their living breaking horses. Constant pounding of the spinal column will exacerbate the spinal disk compression process, resulting in a greater shrink with age factor.

5.) Because we are only talking about a 1" variation in recorded height between a 20 year old and a 69 year old, both known horse breakers, it is perfectly reasonable that 5' 9" 20-year old Harry could be 69-year old Bill.

Kid Nickle and I argue based on fact and evidence. It keeps us young. That is why, at my age I look like a middle age Cary Grant. As you very well know, Kid Nickle bears a striking resemblance to a middle age Gary Cooper. People who make personal attacks on others seem to have a different result as they age.

Butch

Ghosttown Bob:

I genuinely appreciate you answering my question regarding the October 12, 1897 Gillespie letter. Oddly, I answered my own question exactly opposite of the way you answered it. I do not believe that Ms Ernst's published belief that the letter exonerates Harry from the Belle Fourche to be dispositive. Indeed, all Ms Ernst published statements prove is that As of 2009 Ms Ernst has arrived where every informed person has been at since October 12, 1897.

Ms Ernst's progress is truly remarkable. In 1992, when she authored Sundance, My Uncle, she was ignorant of the Gillespie letter. A mere 17 years later she has corrected the error of SMU.

Notwithstanding the foregoing, every unresolved issue that existed before the moment of Ms Ernst's enlightenment remains with us still. Consider:

1.) Gillespie did not name the incarcerated person.

2.) Montana Stock Growers Association Stock Detective, William D. "Billy" Smith, arrested Harry Longabaugh in 1887, and a man calling himself Frank Jones in 1897. When the same arresting officer arrests a man calling himself Longabaugh and then arrests a man calling himself Jones, if the two are the same person, shouldn't the officer say so?

Butch

(Continued) 3.) On October 13, 1897 the 8th Judicial Court in Butte County indicted O'Day, Punteney, Thomas Jones, and Frank Jones, all of whom were in custody. Indicted in absentia were George Currie and Harvey Logan. If W. D. Smith knowingly allowed the court to indict Longabaugh under a false name, he violated his obligation to the court.

4.) When Fraser and Hadsell interviewed Bob Lee in prison, Lee identified the man in custody, Tom Jones, as Harvey Logan, who had been indicted in absentia. He didn't directly name Longabaugh as anyone. He named "Frank Scramble" as Logan's indicted side kick.

If you have ever seen a competent defense lawyer at work then you will believe me when I tell you if you gave one this set of facts with Harry Longabaugh in the docket, the court would dismiss the charges with the court's apologies to Mr Longabaugh or Long as the case may be.

Before I make up my mind, I want to hear Jerry Nickle out.

Jerry Nickle

Butch
Dora du Fran did not reveal anything that was not know already known, so what are you talking about? She appears to be a well-informed person and she is a mystery to me. GTB and I have posted what we know, so if there is a secret, why wont you post it? If you will not post it then at least tell us the reason.

R Leroy

Butch, who did jail time for the Wilcox train robbery?

R L

Jerry Nickle

Butch
You say before you tell us whom Bill long really was you are going to hear me out. You and every one else have heard me out. I have a web site telling the story. The Deseret News published two different articles. My position is Bill Long was the Sundance Kid. Dan Bucks position is B&S were killed in Bolivia and he published his belief. We all know Bucks and mine so the time has come for you to do as you say you will and tell us yours,

Not Butch

R Leroy- Robert E. Lee, cousin of the Logan brothers, spent 6 years 9 months of a ten year sentence for mail robbery. Convicted in May of 1900 and released on February 13, 1907. Although he had part of the money he probably was not there at the robbery.

R L

Thank you Not Butch. That is about what I had been told.

R L

Rod

Hey Bybee....I also have relatives in Grafton cemetery....half of the cemetery...What grave are you related to?

Butch

Jerry:
Before I made up my mind on the October 12, 1897 Gillespie letter I wanted to hear you out on that one issue, among many others.

Ghosttown Bob wanted to know if I was going to make an announcement relative to whom I thought Bill Long was. I'm not ready to do that because all of the evidence isn't in. I'm still tracking my candidate. The Bill Long who married Luzernia had a history prior to that time. William Long is a common name. I'm working exactly as I always work, from the base documents. That includes the Federal Census of 1900, 1910, 1920, and 1930, and others.

Butch

Jerry Nickle:

I've told you repeatedly I'm completely disinterested in the question of Bill Long being Harry Longabaugh. Nothing profitable will come of such discussions simply because, as a matter of logic, it is not possible for Bill to be Harry.

What I do find interesting, however, is how the evidence is handled, how different people looking at the same evidence can reach different conclusions as to what the evidence says, and how different people in different disciplines argue.

The William Long who married Luzernia is a different person than the Harry Longabaugh arrested by W. D. "Billy" Smith in 1887.Is the person arrested by W. D. "Billy" Smith in 1897 the same person as he arrested in 1887? The answer to that question is every bit as important as the question of why Mr. Buck failed to mention the 1887 Nichols/Newberry joint venture in Patagonia.

Ernst is no different. She places Harry square in the thick of things at Keeline, April 20/21, 1886. Shouldn't Ernst have discussed the Nichols/Hall combination? Why didn't she mention that W. D. "Billy" Smith was the arresting officer in both 1887 1n3 1897?

Butch

R. L:

Not Butch gave you an excellent answer, Robert E. Lee. Lee's imprisonment is relative to any discussion of the Gillespie letter only because he names "Frank Scramble" as being in jail with Harvey Logan in October 1897 in Deadwood, accused of the Belle Fourche robbery. As NB said, Lee wasn't one of the robbers and when Fraser and Hadsell interviewed him both commented that he would have said anything to get released.

Was "Frank Scramble" Harry Longabaugh? Was the 1897 "Hobo Photograph" Harvey Logan as Lee maintained? Or, were Thomas and Frank Jones, really Harvey and Lonny Logan, with the "Hobo Photo" being Lonny, not Harvey? Edward Kirby, who published The Rise and Fall of the Sundance Kid in 1983, seems to have started the confusion on page 35. There, Kirby writes that Harvey Logan was listed as Harve Ray! Kirby goes on to name Harry Longabaugh as Frank Jones. Take it from there. This is how train wrecks happen.

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