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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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Kid Lutefisk

(Continued) 9.) As you read this blog pay strict attention to standards and ethics. Hold everyone to the highest standards of both. If you do you will find that Deseret News is passionately devoted to the exercise of our collective First Amendment Rights. Jerry Nickle is passionately devoted to professional standards regarding citation to specific documents. Dan Buck? No. If you own a copy of DUBAS, and you ought to, what you will notice is that Ms Meadows does not use a single Chapter Note, Foot Note, or End Note. Not one, and that is a fact.
Kid Nickle, on the other hand, is the most fastidious fellow I know about citations. I expect his book will have enough citations to keep all of us busy through, at minimum, the next decade. With Jerry, you will know where to find the piece of evidence he cites as authority. You may agree or disagree with him, but there will be no question about where the man got the evidence he is arguing.
Get a copy of Deseret News. Pick a story. Turn on a TV or read another newspaper. What you will find is that your story is supported.

Anonymous

"Jerry Nickle is passionately devoted to professional standards regarding citation to specific documents. Dan Buck? No. If you own a copy of DUBAS, and you ought to, what you will notice is that Ms Meadows does not use a single Chapter Note, Foot Note, or End Note. Not one, and that is a fact."

why is this so, Mr. Buck, or Ms. Buck?

Kid Lutefisk

Anonymous:

Right on sister! Your question is fair, proper, valid, ethical, and, if Mr Buck gives you the courtesy of the reply you deserve we all will benefit.

Ghosttown Bob

Anonymous: Did you ever really read "Digging Up Butch and Sundance?" It is not written as an historical work. It was written by Anne Meadows as a travel book across South America, with a Butch and Sundance theme. It tells the story of where they went and what they found. Not as a book on history. If you have ever read any of Buck's history articles, they are very well annotated and referenced as they should be.

. . . but I think you already knew this. You just wanted to show off your ignorance.

Ghosttown Bob

Kid Lutefisk: Actually I'm not offended, though I think that Gaylen thinks I am Harold Iverson, not you, and Gaylen, I am not saying whether I am, or I am not. I'll keep you guessing for a while longer. I do however look like Harrison Ford, but with a much larger stomach.

As for Jerry, and bunch. I have never doubted their sincerity, or their documentation, or their passion for the subject. Jerry is a great individual and I am sure he is making every effort to document what he has.

What I have doubted are their conclusions linking William Henry Long to Harry Longabaugh. For the most part, they have either mis-interpreted their sources, or relied too much on hearsay/rumor from past/present family members, while doubting the veracity of the valid research of others. Calling everything you do not agree with as "fake" is a poor way of proving your point.

Yes, I doubt that Jerry will reveal the results of the DNA tests on this board, even though he has hinted that he would. Any smart person would wait for the book and documentary.

Dora du Fran

On page 123 of Donna Ernst's new book, The Sundance Kid, Ms Ernst claims that the Fort Worth Five photograph, taken November 21, 1900, was discovered in the window of theSwartz photography studio by Fred J. Dodge, a Wells, Fargo detective. Ms Ernst claims that Dodge made 50 prints of the photo and then, from his office at 817 Main Street in Fort Worth, mailed a copy to the Pinkertons, who in turn sent one to George Nixon in Winnemucca. As authority Ms Ernst, at end note 6 on page 215, cites "wanted" poster from the Malta train robbery, reprinted on page 119 of her book. On page 119 Ms Ernst reproduces Reward Circular No. 3 for the Winnemucca Bank Robbery, issued November 14, 1904, which has absolutely nothing to do with the Fort Worth Five Photo or the Malta train robbery except that Malta is listed as one of Longabaugh's alleged offenses. It gets much worse.

The Wells Fargo Agent at 817 Main Street in 1900 was not Fred J. Dodge, but rather, Nicholas J. McGinnis. (Selcer, Hell's Half Acre, page 262)

CONTINUED......

Dora du Fran

In 1900 Fred J. Dodge and his family lived in San Antonio, not Fort Worth. (Patterson, Butch Cassidy, Note 22, Page 311)The Fred J. Dodge letter of March 6, 1909 to McParland, previously discussed on this blog opens with the following sentence: "I would thank you to furnish me a history of Butch Cassidy also a photo if you have one." If Dodge had fifty prints of the photo in 1900, 49 after Ms Ernst claims he mailed one to the Pinkertons, why would he write to the Pinkertons 9 years later and ask for a photo of Butch? Why did Ms Ernst fabricate a citation? Why didn't Mr Buck bring the Dodge letter forth years ago?

GORDON

I was told my DNA was to help prove or disprove that Bill Long was the Sundance Kid---since his great grandfather Conrad was my great-great-great grandfather there would be a 1/16th match----I stated my DNA was to be used in the public domain----I do not understand why everyone is playing cat and mouse?

jimlyn

Gordon, I am not an expert in dna, but you should be a one to one match with Conrad. If Mr Long is SK then he too should be a one to one match. Y chromosome is very mutant resistant. I have had several matches with my dna and all are a one to one match going back at least two hundred years. And the cat and mouse is politics and money. But I don't blame Mr Nicols for taking the time to do it right.

A friend of JN


Gordon
Jerry Nickle tells me, he did not ask you to furnish a DNA sample? If Jerry Nickle did not then who did?

GTB
Jerry Nickle told me he knows exactly who you are and you are not Kid Lutefish.

Kid Lutefisk

Jerry Nichol is not "playing Politics" and he is not driven by greed. Jerry has been up-front with everyone. He got involved in this project to:

(1)Rejoin Bill Long's remains in his grave with the highest regard for the sensibilities of his family.

(2) Collect DNA samples for the purpose of attempting to discover possible relatives, only one of which group might be the Longabaugh line.

(3) Materially advance the understanding of the American people regarding their history by providing each of us with a highly detailed analysis of historic documents, and providing each of us with the actual documents, word for word.

Jerry Nickle has a lot to do. The man never once asked for money or time from any one of us. There are no tax dollars involved in his work. Jerry, his family, and his friends, have provided the money, time, and sacrifice for the benefit of the Longs, Longabaughs, and the American people. The most stiking feature is that while Ms Ernst has twice remarked on the similar characteristics between the man who claimed to be the Sundance Kid's son, she has done abolutely nothing to investigate the matter. (Continued)

Kid Lutefisk

Jerry is investigating. Jerry is spending his own money, time and effort, depriving his family, using the resaources of his family, friends, climbing into the saddle and riding into the blistering heat of the San Rafael, thirsty, hot , tired, over-age, and in poor health. He does that for you, Gordon.

I believe that Jerry Nickle, my fellow saddle tramp, has more honesty, brains, dedication, integrity, love for his American colleagues, and courage than any other man I know. I'm proud to call the man my friend. We disagree. We fight, argue, and insult each other like an old married couple. In the end, our disagreements advance the ball.Each and every one of the readers of this blog
benefits. You already have knowledge no one else does, you've already been privy to the 1908, and 1909 material. If you stay on this blog, you're going to get more solid information on American History, the men and women who really settled the west, the Parkers, Longabaughs, and others, than you will ever get from any other source short of Jerry's book or mine. Oops! Does Deseret News have a scoop?

Kid Lutefisk

Ghosttown Bob and I are two entirely different people. As previously stated I am a dead ringer for Cary Grant in his prime. On the other hand,GTB is a dead ringer for Harrison Ford.How could you possibly confuse the two of us?

Kid Lutefisk

In the interests of full disclosure, I admit I am not Ghosttown Bob. Readers of this blog might well wonder why only two bloggers, Ms Robison and Anonymous, focus on the issue of who is whom. The rest of us debate issues, or try to, with fact, footnote, and argument under normal rules of constructive debate.

The only two bloggers, Ms Robison and Ms Anonymous who snipe at identities sans fact, regard for truth, and total disregard for fact are Ms. Robison and Ms. Anonymous.

Got the guts to go one on one with Kid Lutefisk, Ms Robison and Ms Anonymous? Are either one of you really stupid enough to take me on? Do you really want your foibles revealed in public? How anxious are either of you to have your worst secrets made public?

Ladies, I'm your absolute worst nightmare. In the words of Henry Higgins, "The Angles will weep for you." I look forward with unbridled anticipation to your response.

Kid Lutefisk

Kid Lutefisk

Ghotsttown Bob:
While the ladies debate the wisdom of going one on one with me, I would very much appreciate your opinion on the issue of the Gillespie letter relative to the new book by Ms Ernst. Because Ms Ernst, in her new book, acknowledges that the Gillespie letter of October 12, 1897, is depositive of the issue as to Harry Longabaugh's involvement in the Belle Fourche robbery, are we all now at the point where Bill Long is excluded, ipso invedio, as being the same person as Harry Longabaugh? Oh, querry, querry, Sir.

I remain your humble servant.

Butch,
Also Known As Kid Lutefisk

Kid Lutefisk

Ghosttown Bob:

We are very rapidly drawing this matter to a close. I believe you are quite right in that Jerry is sincere in his quest. The supporting players, however, are far from being what they pretend to be.

We are all watching a train-wreck in the making, and that is a tragedy for Jerry, his family, and his friends, both you and I among the latter. Once the HollywoodS arrived, "Truth was the first casualty." Some of us, Jerry's pals, took the precaution on his behalf to protect him. To that end, being mindful of the axiom regarding lawsuits for either defamation or libel, that "Truth is the ultimate defense", we have carefully prepared for the eventuality that our future legal opposition is, shall we say, "litigious".

The issue of litigation was never in doubt. Jerry's sincerity, dedication, resolve, integrity, and personal committment to principles was never in doubt. Only the offal that spiraled down the drain within the orbit of Jerry's star are not identified. That will be corrected when Ms Robison and Anonymous surface for battle.

Of course, my ultimate target is Mr. Buck, with the secondary target being Ms. Ernst.

Dora du Fran

I thought I asked an intelligent series of questions. I put work and thought into my comment. No one has responded to me. So far this blog has concerned itself with comments between insiders bent on crucifying each other. May we please return to constructive, informative, debate of the issues?

Kid Lutefisk

Madame Du Fran,

Thank you for drawing attention to our collective bad behavior. Please allow me the honor of apologizing first for our transgressions.

Ms. Ernst is quite notorious for innapropriate citations, poor form in citations, innacurate citations, outrageously poor scholarship, abysmal technique, and an ever-present proclivity to mis-characterize citations, a la Mr Buck.

In my very humble opinion, page 123 is the epitome of outrageous scholarship. Would you, Ma'm, favor our discussion group with your analysis? I'm quite sure we would all be in your debt.

Butch

Dora du Fran

As to the matter of whether or not you, Sir, Mr. Butch, are forgiven, that matter will remain in doubt for the time being.

Ms Ernst, on page 123, deliberately confuses and intertwines 2 documents, the WPA Gouldy Interview, and the subsequent monograph of David Gillespie the son of David Gillespie.

To begin, Ernst says that Harry was asked by Gillespie if the stories of Harry being a member of the Wild Bunch was true. There are two different responses. The Gillespie response was: "No Dave, that isn't true." The Gouldy response was that Harry admitted robbing the Winnemucca Bank.

In the Gillespie version, Harry "slept in the barn to save money". In the Gouldy version Harry slept in the barn to avoid recognition. Really? Longabaugh was a steady fixture from at least 1896 through 1897 in Little Snake Valley. He would be recognized by everyone!

There are multiple and significant differences between Gillespie and Gouldy. If you wish to know where they are, what they are, and read a full description of the event see Jerry's book and see Butch and Cherokee,s book.

Shoshoni

I was present at the Medicine Wheel when the Cheorkee told the story of the five rivers. The Cherokee pointed at the Bear's Tooth and the rivers of life flowing from the medicine wheel. If the Cheorkee is Kate, make your sign known.

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