Comments about ‘Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?’

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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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Kid Lutefisk

Au Contraire, ,mon ami. You must read more carefully and quote more accurately. Siringo is quite specific that he got the story of Brogart/Gatlin/McCoy murdering the boy from Len Woodruff, not the information regarding the dentist, the tough gang of outlaws and the ranch operations 1200 miles from BA. As to Cowboy Detective you know full well you have conjoined two separate letters and one statement by Siringo into a single "letter".

1) Letter from Hall to Dentist.
2.) Siringo statement of location.
3.)Moore letter to Hall/Nichols.

Come, come, Mr. Buck, your're much better than this tawdry performance. Let us have your best game!

Kid Lutefisk

Mr. Buck. I'm not satisfied with your characterization of Butch and Harry, having read newspaper accounts of free land in Patagonia, landing haphazzardly in Cholila with the comely Ethel Place in tow. Together we have established quite clearly that the circumstance of the three amigos parallels, exactly, the Tom Nichols/Hall - Newberry Brothers operations with American outlaws for the preceeding 14 years. Why then, in view of the 1909 Dodge letter joining Butch to Hall/Nichols, should we suppose that Butch and Harry chose Cholila independently of the Nichols-Newberry programed development of cattle ranching enterprise? No, your characterization is not credible.

It is also not credible that Butch and Harry were "chased out" of Patagonia. To the contary, Dimaio did not arrive in BA until March 16, 1903. After Dimaio left BA, it was with the understanding that Newberry would take up the chase following the 1903 Patagonian winter. That, of course, did not happen. Indeed, despite continued Pinkerton efforts to gin up Agentine support for an invasion of Cholila, no such capture effort was forth comming. Nor should it have been expected with vice-counsul George Newberry providing cover for the outlaws in the Argentine capital.

Kid Lutefisk

In Butch's August 10, 1902 letter to Mrs. Davis he states that, while "It is 16 hundred miles to BA" it is only 150 miles to the Chilean Coast. DUBAS, page xii. To take advantage of the drastically shortened route it is necessary to develop the Cochabamba trail which would lead to the packing plant in the Chilean city of the same name. In Butch's 1907 letter to the Boys at Concordia, Butch once again focuses on the packing plant: "It is 350 miles from here to Cochabamba and a hell of a road." DUBAS, p. 99.

The three Amigos left Cholila, never once molested by law enforcement, on May 1, 1905. DUBAS, p.78. At the time the Cochabamba trail had opened and the packing plant was in full operation, to the very great benefit of Newberry-Nichols cattle operations as well as the rest of Patagonia. Butch and Harry sold their squatter's rights to a Chilean outfit, and on June 29, 1905, Harry and Ethel hopped a freighter to, ostensibly, California. DUBAS, p.79.

Daniel Buck

Kid L.,

In the mid/late-1880s, western Chubut was barely populated. If the Siringo anecdote has any basis at all, it's in reference to the Pampas, the region to the immediate west and south of BsAs. But as I mentioned earlier, there is nothing in the Argentine literature about a 100-member Yankee bandit gang in the 1880s (or ever). There were large, marauding Chilean gangs in the Andean foothills of northern Patagonia, but that was years later.

Many Americans came to Argentina in the late 1800s/early 1900s, including Texans. The country was an immigrant magnet. Not everyone, though, has to be linked to Cassidy. Conspiracies and complots based on six-degrees-of-separation are easy to construct, but not very credible.

As for your other points, read Gavirati (2007). For example, the Argentine police went after BC&SK following the February 1905 Rio Gallegos holdup (which the duo probably did not commit). BC&SK&EP fled to Chile. Normally, thats called being chased out.

Dan

Horse Creek Cowboy

To add more confusion relating to the Trio's entry into Patagonia, His late Majesty, Edward VII, did not determine whether Cholila was in Chile or Argentina until November 1902.

Jakey2

I'm probably going to regret joining in but I have a comment and a few questions for Dan Buck.

I sure hope you and Kid L keeping going. I've learned more about the Outlaws in an hour than I learned in ten years reading books about them. Is there any chance the two of you would stage a cage match? I'll by a ticket.

I checked page 78 in your wife book and like Kid L says they left Argentina on May 1. Are you saying the posse was chasing them to Chile?

If there weren't many people in Argentina in 1887, wouldn't that be a good place for outlaws to hide? Who would know they were there.

Are you saying Charlie Seringus and Patterson made everthing up?

Just asking. Thanks for a good show.

GORDON

THERE IS A DNA FROM BILL LONG----THERE IS HARVEYS DNA-----I AND ANOTHER SUNDANCE RELATIVE HAVE GIVEN OUR DNA---WHY IS THIS ALL TAKING SO LONG?

Ancient Mariner

I'm confused. If the DNA from the second time Long was dug up wasn't a match, which match are we waiting for? When did the negative match happen? Why did you dig Long up a third time?

Driftwood

Mr. Buck discredits or ignores certain parts of Siringo and the Pinkerton Files that weakens what he has written or believes. He contends every thing in the Gavirati book trumps Siringo and the Pinkerton files. The Gavirati book is only published in Spanish and cannot be substantiated by other American author besides Mr. Buck because he is the only one that can read Spanish. When a conflict in his book is pointed out to him his respoce is read Gaviratis book. As far as he is concerned this ends the argument and he won the argument. He does not have to address the conflict in his book. Very convenient for Mr. Buck.
Mr. Buck wrote the forward for Gavirati.

To: Eyepatch (Me, Myself and I)

Its called a human interest story. Besides journalism is dead! What they put out for us to read half of it is ficticious or propoganda to get us to believe what they want us to.

Me, Myself and I

The article definitely says the altercation over the supposed water theft happened in 1901. Maybe Bob does have dyslexia.

To: Granny T (Me, Myself and I)

It is well noted and documented that Butch and the Wild Bunch were more like Robin Hoods than Boyz In The Hood. They may have been outlaws but they also shared their spoils with many in need.

Ghosttown Bob

The Deseret News printed Edition for Feb 16, 2009 Column 1, page B8, fourth paragraph down says: "Oct 24, 1910." Look it up in the Library, it's there for all to see.

The Deseret News Online editors made the correction for the online article to read "Oct 24, 1901" on Feb 18th with no mention of their revision.

No dyslexia here.

Ghosttown Bob

Kid Lutefisk: Concerning the exhumations of Bill Long. This topic has been discussed several times on this board and at the KSL site. Your assessment of the exhumations seems to be pretty accurate. The "Family" has been insistent that exhumation #2 (Nov 15, 2007) was just for the purpose of putting Long's bones back, that his body wasn't disturbed, and that no tests were done at that time. Of course they wouldn't admit that Dr. McCullough took measurements and made a forensic examination of the remains at the time, or that his bones were removed and placed in a vault upon re-burial.

My sources have also told me that the "Families" position was that "not enough DNA" was found to make a valid comparison which is what led to a "no-match" to the Long descendant. They originally had wanted to do a Y-Chromosome comparison, but switched in early 2008 to hunting for maternal descendants for Mt-DNA testing.

This last exhumation, I understand was again for Y-Chromosome testing. Perhaps Gorden can enlighten further about what he was told when he was recruited for testing.

Disintrested Observer

". . .besides Mr. Buck because he is the only one that can read Spanish."

I think several million people in Latin & South America, as well as the Philippines and Spain may disagree with you.

Disintrested Observer

On the other hand, Mr. Buck, when might the rest of us that don't read Spanish be able to read the above mentioned book? Might you not be able to persuade Mr. Gavirati to provide an English translation of at least parts of it?

Wonder why

Why today do we see those, to avoid being held responsible for what they say or do, or not being able to verify/prove their own theories, (includes politicians) turn to running the other down. It has become a habit for far too many. If one is right, what does the opinion of one who does not agree matter? If wrong, seems like it would be best to not ask at all.

WW

Kid Lutefisk

Ghosttown Bob:

(1) I hope you weren't offended by the Hollywoods thinking you and I were the same person. I'm a dead ringer for Cary Grant in his prime. You?

(2) Thank you for your clarifications. You appear to know what you're talking about.

(3) In defense of Jerry Nickle I would like to say that I personally know the man to be possessed of a character beyond reproach. Along that line, I believe it to be entirely unfair of all of us to demand that Jerry reveal the crux of his position -- DNA testing match/no match on this blog, for free. The man not only has a book forthcomming, and a movie, but he has spent a considerable amount of money developing both of these properties to my benefit, yours, and every other American citizen interested in our history. The same is true for our host, Deseret News. We would not be able to discuss this topic but for their investment of time and money in hosting this site. When they printed a correction on the 1901/1910 error we ought to compliment them, not denigrate them. Thank you Jerry, thank you Deseret News.

Kid Lutefisk

(Continued)

4.) Jerry and his group acted with the highest moral and ethical standards in the second exhumation. We must all remember that exhumation #2 was conducted solely for the purpose of re-internment of Long's skull and femur, making the remains whole in the grave. That was a kindness to the family and Jerry footed the bill out of his own pocket. Imagine if your loved one was not complete in his/her final resting place. Wouldn't you want the remains whole in the grave? I would.

5.) Dr McCullough acted responsibly and with the highest professional standards at exhumation #2. He had only a brief time at the grave to observe the remains. Because the primary purpose of the exhumation was to make the remains whole, not to conduct a complete forensic examination, Dr McCullough labeled his report "Preliminary" and quite plainly stated the circumstances.

6.) The third exhumation resulted from the discovery that the DNA sample obtained at Exhumation #1 could not possibly be vetted due to the Chain of Custody mandate for any responsible procedure designed to compare DNA between two donors. The purpose of the exercise is to locate family members.

Kid Lutefisk

7.) The fact that DNA test results are not released in advance of publication of Jerry's book and the relase of his film, is in no way properly construed as evidence that there is a match or no match of the DNA. I expect that if you want to know the result, you'll have to buy the book, watch the movie, or read Deseret News. I intend to do all three.

8.) If you read this blog you benefit from a lively discussion of facts with a hard-edge, pointed discussion of annotated evidence, and a no-nonsense look at comlicated evidence by quality professionals. What else do you want? Buy a book, watch a film, buy a newspaper. We call that education, jouralism, and information.

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