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Comments about ‘Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?’

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Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

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Ghosttown Bob

Anonymous
"That makes Donna Ernst a member of the Bill Long crowd." Two plus two does not equal five, even if you say it does. I guess your trouble with math is why you have been unable, all of this time, to realize there were problems with your timeline. First Morrell, and now Gillepsie.

AMP

It's been quite a few weeks over the 8 week mark. Why have we not heard from anyone with news for so long? I admit I'm interested to see the outcome but I am definitely losing faith here...

Anonymous

GTB
You remind me of a one eyed calf, round and round, you go, dont know where you been nor where youre going.

It seems you just cant comprehend what Gillespie implied. Harry Longabaugh probably did not participate in the Belle Fourche bank robbery. Bill Long was never mentioned in the letter. Ernst got it right, ask her to explain it to you.

Kid Lutefisk

Is it possible for someone to tell me how long it takes for a comment to get posted? Because Mr. Buck, Anonymous, Ms Robison, and Ghosttown Bob were kind enough to reply to me, I responded to them. Quite awhile ago. I smell a rat. Then again, it might be lutefisk.

As of 1992 I determined that computers were instruments of the devil, a fad, and would soon go away. I am still waiting for my prophesy to bear fruit. Perhaps it shall -- concurrent with the arrival of the Long/Longabaugh Test Results.

Kid Lutefisk

Anonymous:
Gillespie didn't "imply" anything. He stated quite plainly that Longabaugh was at Slater/Baggs/Dixon/Savery on the date of the Bell Forche robbery. Concurrent with Gillespie's letter, Longabaugh's attorney asked for a continuance in order to transport his witnesses to trial and named Gillespie, Al Reader, and Mrs. McIntosh among others. At that moment in time Bill Long was at Fremont, tripping the light fantastic with Luzernia.

If Ernst in her new book says that Gillespie didn't name Longabaugh she is quite right. He doesn't. It will be very interesting to see how she treats this issue in view of the court records, the Gillespie monograph (not letter) the WPA Gouldy monograph, David Gillespie's WPA interview, and the Oliver St. material. In each of the listed documents Longabaugh is specifically named and two of them have David Gillespie driving Longabaugh in a buggy from Slater to the Reader Ranch to see a cowboy "friend".

Then too, we have the question of W. D. "Billy" Smith being one of the arresting officers in both 1887 and 1897. In view of Smith's reputation it is unlikely he was confused about Longabaugh's identity.





Kid Lutefisk

(Continued)If you look at the total of the material referenced here and then add the Fraser/Hadsell interview of Bob Lee in Laramie, I don't see how it is possible for a rational mind to conclude anything other than Longabaugh was on the Little Snake from January, 1897 as reported by the Craig Courrier through August 1, 1897 as reported by everyone else save Bob Lee.

Anonymous

Get over it Lute, it's already in the can, move on to Butch.

Daniel Buck

Kid L.,

There is a brief note at the bottom of the comment page listing the reasons why a comment will not be posted.

Dan

Anonymous

There is a brief note at the bottom of the comment page listing the reasons why a comment will not be posted.
Dan

"Comments are monitored. Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted."

What would we do without Dan?

Archer834

For some reason my post never made it. What's going on with the DNA results? That would pretty much solve the whole thing. Either didn't get a good sample to compare, it DID or DID NOT match or it's still being processed.

Welllllll?

Kid Lutefisk

Ms Robison:
Please accept my apology for a tardy response. This is not my medium. Quill pens, parchment, and squat bottles of India Ink are far more in keeping with my personality and abilities.

I believe there were three exhumations of Bill Long.

Exhumation #1: The first exhumation was conducted some time prior to January, 2007. I corresponded with two individuals involved from approximately January, 2007, to approximately March, 2007. This exhumation was conducted pursuant to a court order. Subsequent to the exhumation, some family members expressed the opinion that the family member petitioning the court for the exhumation order did not possess sufficient clarity of mind to competently execute the petition. The purpose of the exhumation was to attempt to verify that Bill Long was Bill McCarty. The possibility originated with Perry Jackson, son of Jerimiah "Kid" Jackson and Chloe Jane Morrell Jackson. Perry's published statement said of Bill Long: "We all knew he was an outlaw. I think he was Bill McCarty." The person who performed the exhumation gave Bill Long's height at death as 5' 7", or McCarty's presumed height. A qualified laboratory extracted DNA from Long's remains.

Gaylen Robison

Hi Harold Iverson, AKA GTB, and Kid Lutefisk. Are you really an Ex Pinkerton Agent? Are you absolutely not positive that you did not misrepresent?

Kid Lutefisk

The DNA extracted from Long's remains did not match a presumed McCarty donor sample. At the time of the exhumation Long's skull and femur were removed and the rest of the remains re-interred.

Exhumation # 2: If the document entitled "Preliminary Report, Examination of William Henry Long of Duchesne, Utah, November 15, 2007" by John M. McCullough is valid, then the second exhumation took place on or about November 15, 2007, and Dr. McCullough was present. And if the referenced report is valid, Dr. McCullough found Long to be 5' 8" tall at death, just as I stated in my comment.

Exhumation # 3: Appears to have taken place in December, 2008, judging from comments on this blog, including your own.

Communication with persons involved directly or tangentially with all exhumations informed me that Long DNA from Exhumation #1 was compared to that of a presumed Longabaugh Donor in California following exhumation #2. The samples did not match. The theory was advanced that the Long DNA sample from exhumation #1 had become contaminated and that the contamination resulted in a "no-match" comparison. Thus, the need for Exhumation #3. Let me know where I've gone wrong.

Kid Lutefisk

Mr. Buck:

My apolgies to you as well, Sir. I've located the Word Counter, and I'll let you judge for yourself how appropriate my comment is.

1.) Specifically. Siringo, Cowboy Detective, pp 51-65. I am using the Bison Books edition. Please refer to chapter III. The other major reference is Patterson, Historical Atlas of the Outlaw West, pp 211-212. Gatlin/McCoy, Moore, Hall/Nichols also appear in Riata & Spurs, Lonestar Cowboy, and a Texas Cowboy. I'm quite sure you're familiar with the Pinkerton files on the McCoy gang and Thomas Eskridge a/k/a Peg Leg Watson.

I find the material descriptive of a Buenos Aires dentist at the head of a tough gang of outlaws numbering in the 100s in 1887, connected to Texan Tom Nichols/Hall simply astounding. When you and Ms Meadows considered and wrote about the reasons or reason Butch and Sundance lit out for South America, wouldn't this group of interlocking people, places,and outlaw characters predating their 1901 arrival by 14 years merit significant space in your book? I am greatly troubled by your failure to even discuss it.

Kid Lutefisk

(continued)As far as Butch's letter from Santa Cruz is concerned I found several items highly significant. Near the end of his letter Butch says he and his companion are heading south and will be back at Concordia in approximately a month. Paraguay is, of course, south. The description of the land Hutcheon wanted is perfectly described and tallies exactly with the Rickard/Musgrave operations along the Rio Paraguay. The Tanners can't issolate arrival times in Paraquay for either Rickard or Musgrave. The Tanners give 1911 as Jano's arrival time but state that she might have arrived earlier or that Musgrave arrived earlier and told her about it. The Jebens family claimed 1910 or 1911 as the arrival time, but the 1910 Federal Census shows them absent from Little Snake River. At worst, all the significant players in Paraguay are moving toward Paraguay 24-30 months after the date of Butch's letter. If so, it is not credible that the target site wasn't selected before that -- and if you look at the 1908 and 1909
reports within that context, I believe we can determine the approximate time frame the Rio Paraguay was selected.

Anonymous

"When you and Ms Meadows considered and wrote about the reasons or reason Butch and Sundance lit out for South America, wouldn't this group of interlocking people, places,and outlaw characters predating their 1901 arrival by 14 years merit significant space in your book? I am greatly troubled by your failure to even discuss it."

Come on KL, you can't mean that. Why our man Dan, will discuss anything. Especially what he has spoken.

Daniel Buck

KL,

Siringo presented two slightly different versions of the 1887 incident, 25 years later in A Cowboy Detective (1912), p. 63, and 40 years later in Riata and Spurs (1927, 2nd. ed. rev.).

1912 version: Hall gave Bogan/McCory/Gatlin a letter of introduction to a dentist in Buenos Aires as a passport into a gang of 100 outlaws operating 1,200 miles from Buenos Aires. Hall showed Siringo a letter from a Texas murderer, Moore, perhaps the gang's leader and the dentist.

1927 version: Bogan sails to Buenos Aires where "he found a friend in the person of a dentist who was a badman from Texas, and a friend to Tom Hall." Hall had already sent the dentist a letter asking him "to assist Gatlin in reaching an outlaw band on the Pampas, twelve hundred miles from Buenos Aires."

In version two, Siringo implies that he got the story secondhand from Len Woodruff.

cont'd

Daniel Buck

1,200 miles from BsAs, by the way, puts the gang operating either in the Pacific Ocean 400 miles off the coast of Chile: in the Antarctic Ocean 200 miles south of Tierra del Fuego; or somewhere in Brazil, north of Bolivia.

There is no evidence in the Argentine literature of any such Texas badman dentist or any such gang, amphibious or not.

Why did BC&SK go to Argentina? By all accounts to homestead a ranch, which is what they did until they got chased out. News of free land in Argentina was published in the US newspapers; other ranchers in the Rockies had gone down there. Coincidentally, a dentist did have a role in their homesteading in Patagonia : New Yorker George Newbery, who was the American vice-consul in BsAS , as well as a land developer and rancher.

Dan

Kid Lutefisk

(Continued) The reason I believe Dodge's 1909 letter to be the most critical of the three groups of letters is it closes the circle with Hall/Nichols exactly where we began in 1887. McParlan's comments are not context, they are criticism. You know perfectly well from reading the relevant personnel files that Robert and William, between 1902 and 1914, spent many hours corresponding about ways and means to pension off their old retainer at full salary without hurting his feelings. That is context for McParlan's comment. Context for Dodge's leter is that Maxwell, having arrived in Goldfield, Nevada as a strike breaker within the time frame of the Nelson-Gans fight promoted by Rickard is now back in Utah with Butch, Nichols, and McCarty. The 1910 Census will show Mid Nichols in the Nevada goldfields and Billy Sawtelle pouring Dan Parker a drink at the Iron Saloon at Parowan, Utah. Context, Mr. Buck. Context.

Ms Meadows discussed Billy Sawtelle leaving Fremont County, where Bert Charter is ranching and freighting and Elzy Lay is ranching and bar tending, going to SA, and comming back with news of Butch's death. Why not discuss context?

Kid Lutefisk

Chuckle. Well done, Mr. Buck, well done. However at the conclusion of your most excellent and entertaining comment you gave yourself the slightest chance of escape by dropping the name George Newberry. Of course, George Newberry is the dentist --and temporary diplomat at Buenos Aires. His brother Ralph Lamertine Newberry oversaw ranching operations at Nahuel Huapi and had substantial interests in gold and silver mining attempts in Bolivia. The Newberry neighbors at Nahuel Huapi were Jared Jones and John Crockett who arrived in 1887 exactly as Ms Meadows wrote on Page 56 of DUBAS, and of course the Dentist in Buenos Aires with the outlaws in Patagonia in 1887. Now as to your Neptune Ranch. Well now, on August 10, 1902 Butch wrote to Maud Davis' mother at Ashley, Utah. Butch was writing from the Cholila Ranch. Ms Meadows, printed the letter on pages xi-xii. On xii Butch writes "It is 16 hundred miles to Buenos Aries...." Tell me, Mr. Buck, was Butch wearing a wet suit when he wrote? Snorkel? Of course Nahuel Huapi is 200 miles nearer Buenos Aires than the Cholila Ranch, and we now begin to approximate Moore's 1200 miles!

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