Comments about ‘Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?’

Return to article »

Published: Tuesday, Feb. 17 2009 12:00 a.m. MST

  • Oldest first
  • Newest first
  • Most recommended

How about that KSL Blog poll, isnt that amazing? 87% believe Sundance died in Utah, 8% believe he died in Bolivia.


I see DB asks the questions and then answers the question. Would the answer be fact or would it be DB opinion?

The informed one

Not only did Lula believe Butch returned but so did Pinkerton informant F. J. Dodge. (Pinkerton History #3345). Also Pinkerton memo dated Feb 26, 1910 states Butch was seen in 1909 in Wyoming and Utah. And Pinkerton memo dated June 8, 1908 states Butch was in Evanston Wyoming in May 1908. According to DB Butch was in Bolivia in May 1908. Butch cant be in two places at the same time. I will go with the Pinkertons

Little DB

Tempus fugit is a Latin expression meaning "time flees",

Kid Lutefisk

Informed One:

F. J. Dodge was not a Pinkerton Informant. He was a Special Officer for Wells Fargo Express Company. The Dodge document is not to be cited as "Pinkerton History #3445". Chicago Criminal History No. 3445 is the Pinkerton National Detective Agency Cross Index File Number for George Parker, three variations of the Cassidy alias, and the alias Ingerfield. The correct citation for the Dodge Document is:

Pinkerton Chicago Office Memorandum to James McParland, Esq., March 22, 1909, Chicago Criminal History No. 3445, George Parket et al, Container 89, Folio 7, Pinkerton National Detective Agency Records, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress, Washington D. C.

The document just cited reports the contents of a letter from Special Officer Dodge writing from Raton, New Mexico, to Principal William A. Pinkerton at the Chicago Office. The date of Dodge's letter was March 6, 1909. The salient points of the letter are:

(1) Dodge received what he believed to be credible information on February 28, 1909, that "Butch Cassidy" was in Price and Cisco, Utah prior to February 28, 1909, in the company of Gunplay Maxwell and Tom McCarty. McCarty and Maxwell were known to inhabit the Henry Mountains.

Kid Lutefisk

(Continued)2) Butch was seen in Woodside, Utah, in the company of a man named Hall on March 1, 1909.

If you follow Mr. Buck's most excellent admonition to read raw reports with a critical eye and a healthy dose of scepticism, you will discover that your F. J. Dodge document is the "smoking gun" that blasted away Mr. Buck's absurd contention that Butch and Sundance died in San Vicente, Bolivia on November 6, 1908. I'm fairly confident that you'll do precisely that, and therefore let me be the first to congratulate you and Kid Nickle as the Dynamic Duo that established Ms Meadows and Mr Buck as the premiere practitioners of Slapstick History and Intellectual Pratfalls.

Congratulations would be premature if all the arrows in your quiver had blunt tips. A Pinkerton Document that is not corroborated, verified by independent documentation, and placed in context is an arrow with a blunt tip. Therefore sharpen it to the point where it penetrates with the same force as a .44-40. Remember, deliver a double tap to the red zone, then the coup de grace between the eyes.

Kid Lutefisk

(Continued)In my opinion, the 1-2-3 to dispose of Buck is, in order:

1) The November 12, 1907 letter from J. P. Maxwell to The Boys at Concordia. The letter is printed on pages 98-99 in DUBAS If I were you I would devote considerable time to Santa Cruz and its geographic location to Rio Paraguay, Concepcion, Caraya Vuelta, Cochabamba, and the description of the land Hutch wanted. Hint, the locations referenced are directly linked to Tex Rickard and George West Musgrave and a very special ranching venture.

2.)Pinkerton Denver Criminal History No 1597, George Cassidy, Train Robber and Hold-Up, June 8, 1908,Container 89, Folio 7, Pinkerton National Detective Agency Records, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress, Washington, D. C. You already have the document, you just didn't cite it correctly. To turn this document into a lethal shot so you can claim your trophy Buck, conentrate on the Snake River Stock Growers Association meeting at Slater. Hint: George West Musgrave married Jano Magor. Jano Magor's older sister was Maud Lorene Magor who was Bert Charter's wife. At the time of the Ayer and Hadsell reports the Stock Growers met.

Kid Lutefisk

Right after the Stock Growers met, Charlie Perkins, Bert and Kid Charter's relation by marriage, sold his Snake River ranch. At that time, Bert and Maud moved to Pinedale. Further hint: Kirk Calvert, whose daughter Mary married Elzy Lay, was the last wagon boss for the Ell Seven outfit before they went belly up in 1892. Charley Ayer bought the assets of the Ell Seven, established the Bar Ell Seven, and was the Pinkerton Informant not only of this document but countless others --always to the detriment of Harry Longabaugh. To close out 1908, remember that Jano and George musgrave got hitched on November 2, 1908.

3.) Your Coup de grace, shot three, is your Dodge document. You can make this lethal by following up on Hall. Hint: Hall is Tom Hall. Tom Hall is the alias of Tom Nichols. Tom Nichols was one of the moving forces behind the Newberry, Crockett, and Jones cattle raising operations in Patagonia as of 1887. Nichols is the cousin (not brother) of William Midvale "Mid" Nichols. Mid Nichols was the money behind the Nichols/Ryan saloon in Baggs. Also follow up on Tom McCarty. McCarty's Pinkerton Cross Index # is 1671.


Kid Lutefisk
1895: Kite/Ryan before Nichols/Ryan 1896

Kid Lutefisk

Thanks, Kid. You're quite right. Kite/Ryan was the predecessor. Would you happen to know the first or earliest use of the name Home Ranch Saloon to refer to the Nichols/Ryan establishment in Baggs? The front page of the Craig Courier carries ads from 1896 onward. Was Nichols involved in the Home Ranch Saloon in Rawlins with Ryan?

I appreciate any help. After three meals a day of lutefisk my mind has become more corroded than Mr. Buck believes Mrs. Betenson's became. Unlike Mrs. Betenson, I don't have a defense if Mr. Buck levels a similar charge at me.

I can't find any evidence that Tom Nichols owned the Mint Saloon in Price, Utah, prior to 1896. Do you know if he did?

The same Judge McGinnis who locked up Harry Longabaugh in 1887, colluded with Walter Stoll in Cheyenne to quash Tom Nichol's Texas murder warrant in 1890. In 1896 McGinnis moved to Price and opened a law office, and represented Nichols. In 1899 after J. B. Buhr was arrested at Granite Tom Nichols was a character witness --advised by McGinnis. The case was dismissed by Judge McCarty -- Tom McCarty's cousin.

Kid Lutefisk

Harry Longabaugh was measured as being 5'9" tall at incarceration in 1887 and 5'10" tall in 1902 as recorded on his P.N.D.A., Card Number 1961, Harry Longabaugh, 470R, Container 93, Folio 3, Pinkerton National Detective Agency Records, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress, Washington, D. C.

According to Page 2, Preliminary Report, Examination of William Long of Duchesne, Utah, November 15, 2007,Bill Long was "approximately" 5' 8" in height at death in 1936. Use of the word "approximately" is troubling in this context. McCullough noted Longs evidentiary spndylolysis of the lumbar vertebra and Longs arthritic development of the lumbar centra but does not tell us if either notation was extant in the height calculation at death. The individual who conducted Longs first exhumation gave the height of the remains at 5'7".

The Long and the short of the matter is that Bill was far too little to be Harry. Kid Nickle has been hoist on his own petard. I'll leave Little DB the floor so he can clean up after me.

Kid Lutefisk

In 1937 Florence Viola Long Ehlers, the eldest child of Bill and Luzernia Long wrote a letter to her nephew, Silas Laverle Morrell. In that letter Viola (as she was known) said that Bill claimed "as near as he could remember" that he arrived in Utah at age 21. If Bill was born in 1867, as Kid Nickle claims, then Bill's arrival in Utah would have been in 1888. Harry Longabaugh was either in custody or incarcerated at Sundance, Wyoming, from June, 1887 (the date of his second capture by Deputy Sheriff Eph K. Davis and Stock Detective William D. "Billy" Smith) until his pardon by Governor Thomas Moonlight on February 4, 1889. After a stage trip to Deadwood immediately after being pardoned, Longabaugh returned to Wyoming. On or about May 17, 1889 Longabaugh was in a dugout on Oil Creek, 35 miles north of Sundance when Sheriff E. B. Armstrong and Deputy Sheriff James Swisher shot and killed Buck Hanby in Longabaugh's presence. Whether "as near as he could remember" means 1887, 1888, or 1889, Harry and Bill must be two different people because a mortal person can not be in two places at once.

Disintrested Observer

AC, Jayne, Lady, Anonymous: Just what was so offensive about asking: "I wondered if you, as someone who was intimately involved with the writing of the book, had an opinion on the matter???"

Jeesh, He just asked a question. From what I read, he has given Flack credit for her answer. No insult was intended, yet you seem to have taken great umbrage over a simple question. Calling other people names gets you nowhere, but shows how small minded you all are.

Kid Lutefisk

According to William Wilson Morrell, Son of Cyrus Wilson Morrell, Grandson of Benjamin Morrell, Unknown Binding, Anonymous, LDS History Archive, Page 40, and William Wilson Morrell, Biography, Anonymous, Unpublished Monograph of 3 Pages, Page 2,a log hospital was constructed cira 1884 at Fish Lake, Utah. It was abandoned in 1886-1887. A piano was in the downstairs parlor of the two story structure. Enuch Sorensen and William Jensen testified that Charles Anderson, among others, shot the keys off the piano in the abandoned building. Anderson was fined $90.00 for his vandalism.

According to Perry Jackson, youngest son of Jeremiah "Kid " Jackson, Bill Long said that shooting the keys off the Fish Lake hospital piano was "the most expensive piano lesson I ever took".

The Fish Lake abandoned hospital burned down during hunting season in the fall of 1889 under "mysterious circumstances". Therefore, the keys of the piano were shot off prior to fall, 1889.

On October 16, 1901 Silas and Luzernia Morrell's third oldest daughter, Mary Frances, married Charles Anerson, making Charlie Bill Longs ste-son-in-law. Anerson never disputed Long's claim to being one of the culprits who whot off the piano keys.

Gaylen Robison

Kid Lutefisk. You said "According to page 2, Preliminary report, Examination of William Long of Duchesne, Utah Nov. 15, 2007, Bill Long was approximately 5'8" in height at death in 1936." You should be troubled with that. I'm troubled that you even have a Preliminary report at all. Where did you get it? Who signed it? That first exhumation was done illegally. There was no court order, not even a hearing. They removed only the skull and a thigh bone for testing. They didn't even use rubber gloves. They didn't know. The whole affair was a first class boondoggle! City of Duchesne didn't know either, they gave permission and furnished the backhoe. The only reason g.grandpa Long was "approximately 5'8" was because somebody wanted him to be 5'8".
Doctor McCullough was not even involved with it then. The FIRST legal exhumation was December, 2008.
Maybe that's why it's taking longer to get results. I hope this sets the record straight on that.

Kid Lutefisk

(continued) Uncle Earl Jackson in a July 2007 interview with Kid Nickle and yours truly, said that Charlie Anderson and Bill Long were employed at the Baker Horse Ranch, located approximately 20 miles northeast of Fremont in Paradise Valley. Uncle Earl fixed Long's employment at the Baker Horse Ranch from the time of Long's arrival in the area (1886-1889) until his marriage to the widow Luzernia Morrell on November 15, 1894.

The Baker Horse Ranch in Paradise Valley is between 25 and 30 miles from the site of the Fish Lake hospital depending on which trail you take.

Each of the evidentary items here are cross-corrobaration for the other and, if they are accurate, lead to the inescapable conclusion that Bill Long arrived in Utah before the late fall of 1889. If so, then Bill is not Harry.

But then, we have the question, if Bill is not Harry, what was his history prior to arrival in Utah? The answer to that question is the same as for each and every other question discussed in these pages. It has been Hiding In Plain Sight for well over a century.

Daniel Buck

Kid Lutefisk,

Re Tom Nichols being involved in 1887 in George Newbery's Patagonian estancia venture. Specifically?

Re Cassidy's 1907 letter about ranching in Bolivia and Tex Rickard's ranching enterprise in Paraguay hundreds of miles away and several years later. The point is?

Context re Fred Dodge. Dodges 6 March 1909 letter to William Pinkerton (quoted in a 22 March letter from the Chicago Pinkerton manager to Denver manager McParland) is a request for information. After receiving a wanted circular, Dodge wrote on 18 March, saying, "I received some information about the last of Feb. that Butch Cassidy was seen," and rattling on about Cassidy, Maxwell, McCarty, and "a man by the name of Hall." "I feel pretty sure that this information is correct," Dodge adds helpfully.

McParland replied to the Chicago manager 25 March with a several page letter disparaging Dodge's detective abilities, saying that Dodge often drew on his imagination," and that he had "little use for a man who has lived on hot air the number of years that Captain Dodge has done."

Maybe McParland was right; maybe not. But his opinion provides context.


Ghosttown Bob

Now the Bill Long crowd have used David Gillespie's letter to prove that Longabaugh was not in S. Dakota on June 28th at the time of the robbery, but the letter also proves that he wasn't in Utah either. Even if they say that Gillespie was "covering" for Longabaugh ie. saying that he was near Slater on the 29th when he really wasn't. What that means is that if he wasn't around Slater on the 28th, then he was actually at Belle Fourche robbing banks, since he was identified as one of the robbers.

Bill Long being Harry Longabaugh lose both ways.

Ghosttown Bob

Well, I see the PTB only posted half of my last comment. Well, I was just congratulating the new "Kid" on the block on his prowess in figuring out the impact of the Gillespie letter. Even though I have posted it twice already, no one except Kid Lutefisk bothered to notice that nine months before Evinda's birth date was actually June 29th (not July 29th)Harry Longabaugh could not have both been home making babies as Bill Long and either working for the Readers or robbing banks at the same time.


That makes Donna Ernst a member of the Bill Long crowd.

Kid Lutefisk
I guess Kite and Garner were one of many things you forgot to research.
Nickol was not the money behind the Home Ranch saloon in Baggs, nor was he involved in Ryan's saloon operations in Rawlins and Walcott.
Wyoming has a lot of potash, I understand potash is used for Lutfisk?

to comment

DeseretNews.com encourages a civil dialogue among its readers. We welcome your thoughtful comments.
About comments